Do you guys know that there is almost nothing that I love more to share on this podcast than the story of a photographer who was faced with some sort of problem and solved it in a creative way, right? I've shared my own problems and how I've creatively solved them. I've shared the stories of lots of other photographers who have come up with creative ideas that have, you know, made them money, given them time back all kinds of things. But today's conversation is a new one. And I
really love this one. Now, when you first hear Jill Smith's problem, and I'm using air quotes here, you may say, that's a champagne problem, I don't have that problem. I wish I had that problem. But if you are, as I know, you are because you're listening to this podcast, if you are on the journey toward building your business in a profitable, sustainable way, at some point or another, you are going to be faced with this
problem. And the problem is that you get to a place where you have more work than you have time. And you have kind of topped out at a cap where you can't really make any more money because you just can't take on any more work. So Jill had that problem a couple of years ago and her business and she solved it by creating an Associate
Program. And again, whether or not you are at this place in your business right now, where you want to build an Associate Program, or if you are at a place where you have a lot of work, but you have no interest in an Associate Program. Anyway, I still want you to listen to this episode, because many of the sort of strategies and the ways that Gil is thinking about this problem are going to be
applicable regardless. And if you are toward the beginning of your career, where you're like, I need more work, I need more experience, I need to build my portfolio. Well then I want you to listen to this from the perspective of someone who is in a good position to potentially be an associate for someone else. So there's all kinds of different ways that you can approach today's episode, no matter how you do, you're gonna get something great. Welcome to this can't be that hard. My name
is Annemie Tonken. And I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it. And I can show you how. Jill Smith, it is a pleasure to have you on this can't be that hard. I feel like I have known you and about you
for it feels like years now. And this is the first time that we're having this kind of conversation. And it's a conversation that was specifically requested in my Facebook group. So I know that this is going to be a really juicy one. How are you today?
Great. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to have a one on one conversation with you. I know.
Yeah, I know. It'll be good. And it sounds like we've got a ton to dive into. I want to start just by sort of setting the stage for everybody with, you know, obviously, who you are and where you are, and all that sort of stuff. But then I'd love to hear the backstory about how you decided to start an associate program and your family photography business.
Right. So I am a lifestyle family photographer. I am in the Catskills of New York, so I work well. Yeah, it is it's it is not too shabby. So I work around here and in the General Hudson Valley area, and on location, all that sort of stuff. And I've been in business for 10 years little over 10 years now.
Amazing. Good. And so yeah, let's just dive right into it. Tell me about your sort of the trajectory of your business and how, like the associate program came to be.
Right? So I think if we're lucky as photographers, our businesses grow every year and they get busy, and we get busier and we raise our prices to try to mitigate that and make more without working more and, you know, you get to a certain point where you can be charging top dollar and still be booked,
you know, to capacity. And I was very fortunate that that's what has been happening to me year after year and it was a few years back this time, which we're recording now in mid October, which if you're in the northeast, you know that is busy time for photographers and I got a stomach bug. It was like shortly after COVID So we are getting viruses that weird time right right. I got Yeah, I got some I got stomach bug in October and I got so dehydrated
that I passed out. I got a concussion I needed staples in my head. My tooth broke in half. And wow. Yeah, I was yeah, it was really dramatic. And I was out of work I have course I wasn't hospital, I had to be out of work, I had to postpone my sessions, and really, in some cases canceled, because by the time I was gonna be able to work again, sure, I, the leaves are gonna be gone, which right now, God forbid, the leaves are gone, and we don't get our phone. But that
sorry about your tooth, but I really was looking for fall color.
So it was my husband who said to me it, and you know, and I'm stressing out because not only could I not shoot, I couldn't edit because when you have a concussion, you can't go on the computer, you need to stay away from screens. And it was just like a total, like comedy of errors, but not that funny at the time. And my husband was like, you know, any contractor, like, worth their salt has a team, right? Like,
so. Think about it, we've never hired somebody who just comes by themselves when we are getting a service done. Like they have a team of, of people that can do their job for them, too. And I, you know, it was a lightbulb moment. And I was like, You're right. So I started to build my associate team then. And I, you know, before I did that, I of course, looked to see how to do it. Because we all know that, like wedding photographers. This is common in the wedding industry to have a team under
you. But it's kind of not in family photography. But I feel like it's just as necessary. And there were no resources. So I did build it, I built the team, I figured out a system. And as somebody with ADHD, I needed my system to be really foolproof. Because when you're doing something like this, there's a lot of trouble that you can get into if you're not careful. And if you don't read the laws, and if you don't understand how subcontractors work in your state, and then wherever you
are. So it took a while. And I did it. And it was incredible. I found a couple I found I started with two associates for my business. And I interviewed a lot, I interviewed a lot. And I found two and I was really lucky to find two and my I broke six figures that year, the year that I brought on my associates and I worked much less than I ever had, I was you know picking pumpkins with my family instead of missing dinner with them during the busy season. And it
has been great. They're also taking jobs that I don't really want to do or should not be doing like working with couples. I'm not great at that I have an associate who's a really skilled wedding couples photographer, and another one now and my newest associate is an award winning photo journalist. Nice. So she does some stuff that I can't do. So it is so cool to be able to say yes to more jobs as
well. You know, I'm not referring out to my colleagues as often as I used to, because I do have this team now that can take the jobs for me do a great job that I'm proud of. And I make money. Bottom line I make I make money while I'm at home with my family. Yeah. So
I have like a million questions. And I'm sure everybody out there does as well. But let's sort of start with the basics. So when you decided to hire associates, what were you were you looking for? Kind of carbon copies of you? It sounds like no, because you hired some people with some different skills? Or were you? Yeah, were you looking to go sort of find people who your long term clients would be just as happy having them photograph
them? Or were you really looking to kind of broaden the people that you could attract to your business?
Or both? Right? Right. So starting off with the first thing I did was I thought of a burgeoning photographer in my area, who did have a similar style to me and I knew her personally a little bit. And she was a really good compliment because she is you know, it you know that in person aspect of your brand is so important. So and it's it's a deal breaker when onboarding an associate if they can't kind of match your energies that that you've it has
to be that way. So the as far as like the technical part, where can they reproduce my work? Or can they shoot the way that I do or that can be taught and that's the easy part I on boarded two people to begin with who had similar styles to me. And then I really kind of fine tuned it. I reverse engineered my own workflows to figure out exactly what was I doing consistently throughout each session and I made a repeatable workflow for
them. From there we kind of like really worked on the poses and how the sessions should go, how long I want them to last. Last, how long for you know the turnaround and everything like that so that it is a, you know, a repeatable process, the same experience that my clients are used to and while they have worked with my past client antes it's actually been great for new people too. And we have a lot of out of town business that comes
in. So it's like a one shot sort of thing where it's these people who are just on vacation here who come in. So they're great for those jobs. They go to Airbnbs and stuff and datograph families.
Yeah. Nice. So do you. How do you, like sort of set the boundaries with your associates? Are they just photographing and then you take the files and you manage everything else? Are they running their own separate businesses, as well as shooting for you? Like, I want all those,
right? Yeah, because I wanted this to be a super appealing job for them. So all they have to do is agree to the job when I asked them if they're available, because remember, their subcontractors are not my employees, but you can you can go into that employee territory, there's a lot more responsibility for you, as the lead photographer than if they're just your subcontractors. But there's perks to there's pros and cons for each. But because their subcontractors first they agree
to a job, are you available? Do you want to take this job? Yes. So they have a flat rate that they get paid, which is $300. And all they have to do is show up, if there's a shot list, they get the shot list for me, and
then return the Ross to me. And that's normally through like Dropbox or something like that sometimes in person if they can hand off, but they're, you know, you need to make sure that if they're your subcontractors that they're not even using your SD cards might have to be using all of their own equipment. So there, you do need to figure out a system with how those files
get transferred. So yes, I coordinate, plan, shoot, communicate, I usually bring the associate and if there's any like intricacies of the job. Like for example, one of my associates was shooting a proposal. So she didn't need to coordinate or the client beforehand. And she was fine to do that. Because it was still me doing the bulk of the coordinating. And then she gave me the files, I edit and deliver. And then that's it. And they've made 300 bucks and usually about an hour an
hour. Sure, yes, yeah. Yeah, that's good. And I'm assuming then that they are also doing photographic work under their own name and brand. Okay. No, they are
they are they do have their own businesses. I'm learning through teaching some other photographers recently how to do this, that there are some red flags to look out for what makes an associate work better for you, in some instances than others. My associates, two of them do have their own businesses, one of them is a wedding photographer. So very often she'll, I'll get a couple inquiry. They'll do their engagement session with her, but I don't want to edit a wedding.
So I encouraged her to then solicit her wedding offers to them. My other my family focused associate does have her own business. And while she is kind of a direct competitor of mine, she's so early in her business that she doesn't have the reach that I have. That said, through the process of being my associate, she's also been mentored by me, right? So she's getting started on the right foot. She's not charging $50 for her sessions, she's she's bringing in a healthier income.
And I'm happy to have the competition, especially when I was able to get help that photographer get to where they are, because it just kind of like elevates the local industry to have all the photographers doing things legitimately and profitably.
Yeah, absolutely. No, I think that it is a bit of a fine line to walk. And actually, it's funny that one of your associates is a wedding photographer, because when I have thought and I have thought many times about bringing on an associate or two, I've always thought that that would be sort of the perfect complement just because if that person is willing to sort of, you know, say, I'm gonna, I would like to have work either during the week or maybe on Sundays. That's really easy. And
I can just get in and out. But they're very skilled. But it's not that direct competition. It seems like it would be kind of the win win for everybody. But it is yeah. So I imagine that in the last couple of years, you have come across some like big things to watch out for if you are interested in building an Associate
Program. Yes, yes, absolutely. So though, you know, whether or not we want to admit it, many times we're driven by fear, fear of getting in trouble with the IRS. Sure. Yeah. Fear, fear of bringing somebody on and, and something they're doing thinking our business or you know, a lot of photographers that I've spoken to and helped do this, are so afraid of their business being
stolen. So that's another fear and finding out the laws around everything and making sure that you're doing things by the book, your contracts are good and having good systems in place so that you're not dropping the ball in this process, because it is a little bit more complicated onboarding a client, when you're, they're gonna be working with an associate, there's more contracts involved. And there's more communication, explaining that many people are familiar with this. Not many clients are
familiar with this. So there's that and then finding out how to deal with it at tax time, because now you may be paying the subcontractor, although I have found a way around even having to file to 99. So I don't even have to do that. It's, it can be very, very simple. And then as far as like being afraid of somebody stealing your business, or copying you, or doing something like that,
that's a mindset thing. And you have to think back to when you're getting started, and where you figured out how to become the photographer, who you are. And it's probably bits and pieces of other photographers who you admired and watched and learned from. So understanding that part of the process might be that photographers copying you for a while, or stuff like that, that's normal as but as far as, you know, poaching goes because that can that can happen that theoretically, that can
happen. That's a trust thing. And that is something that you really want to be proactive about in the onboarding process, finding associates that you can really, really trust. And that is like it you got to trust your intuition during that time. And something doesn't feel right. You know, your business is your baby. For most of us it is and who's you know, you're not going to hire just any babysitter, so you're not going to hire just any associate to come and, and
represent you. So that part is probably the most important part of the entire process. But then from there, things can be very good. But they can go awfully wrong, too. And luckily, they haven't for me.
Yeah, that's good. Well, an ounce of prevention can be worth a pound of cure for sure. That's right. Tell me since we're talking about hiring a little bit about how you went about hiring when you first decided to look for an associate.
Sure. So I between my three associates I have on all three different ways of acquiring them. The first person was this photographer who I saw was she was putting ads up in the grocery store for pet photography. And I just really liked her as a person. I didn't know she was trying to become a photographer. She's actually an occupational therapist, like with a PhD. Like she's very, she has a really great careers very Yeah. But she loves photography.
So I called her and I asked her and she was like, blown away. She couldn't believe it. You know, she was gonna have this opportunity. That to my own horn. She was just just like 1015 years younger than me. She thought it was really Oh, really great experience. Yeah, of course,
I can absolutely identify with how, you know, great it would feel to sort of be singled out in that way. Yeah.
Yeah. So she was the first one. And then I actually I don't think Facebook has job listings anymore, which is a shame. But they I did put out a job listing on Facebook, and I had a lot of photographers apply that way. And I then brought in some for interviewing and I one of the photographer's was somebody whose work I had seen, and I was always impressed with and she stood out in person and just had the right we had a good connection. So she was who
I hired that way. And then the third one is a photographer who took this class that I offered, it was something we would always do after Christmas, me and my other friend who was a photographer how to use your camera shooting a manual sort of thing. Oh, sure. Yeah, but the camera Yes, years ago, she's an art teacher. And years ago, she took that class so she could teach her class how to work a
DSLR. And then she got really into photography, she became she took all these courses on documentary style photography, and decided she did not like the business part. She didn't like running a business, but she loves art, she asked me if you're thinking of bringing on any more associates, I would love for you to consider me and that is how I got to where my
team is now. So there's lots of ways to to get associates and I personally like being able to put out the ad for a job opening because then you're getting a lot more people to choose from. But if you know somebody like you said, you're thinking of a wedding photographer, something like that. I think that's so
smart. And if you know wedding photographer who already has an established business, they would be great especially because of my experience and no shade to wedding photographers, but they seem to price their family photography so low and they don't have to Yeah. Yeah, I'll
die on that hill. I'm like, I'm gonna find all the wedding photographers and encourage them teach them how to charge more for families. Yeah,
right. Yeah. So I think that would be a really good partnership, you know, so, yeah, definitely more than one way to do it.
Yeah, I mean, right, if you're only going to charge a few 100 bucks, how about I pay you a few? $100?
I'll deal with all the other stuff. Exactly, exactly.
Yeah. But oh, man, that's good. So any other sort of thoughts or words of wisdom in terms of like getting started? Or? Or maybe who isn't? Right for an you know, to start a, an Associate Program?
Oh, yeah, you're, well, I think some signs that you're ready are that you're saying no to a lot of work, because your schedule is full. You're feeling burnt out, you're feeling like you've raised your prices to a point that your market can support. And I you know, on the other hand, I would also argue that there's really not a cap on how high you can raise your prices, but you will end up with a different demographic. So finding that sweet spot of the highest you can charge, the demographic you
want to work with. So once you feel like you've reached that cap, you're still getting booked out. I would say at income wise, this is arbitrary, honestly, but probably around 50k. Once you're bringing in 50k, and all of those other boxes are checked, you're probably ready to bring on a team. And the beauty of a subcontract or a 1099 team is that you, you're not guaranteeing them work, right. They're just you're able to give them the overflow or the jobs that you don't want to say no to
anymore. So for your family photographer, that might be couples, elopements, or headshots, or pet photography, seniors, whatever you feel like it's outside of your zone of genius. And you want to so you can spend more time doing what you're really, really good at. And let them pick up the slack. There's some red flags that you are not ready, I guess would be
the opposite. Most things if if you're still struggling to get increased, to get bookings, to do things like that, if you're still not charging a profitable rate, you're just not there yet. And that's yet is the operative word, you know, you'll get there. But maybe
if you're there, and you feel like you would really benefit from a mentor, and you're not interested in going and being like poaching somebody's work, you know, reach out to a photographer whose work you admire who you see as being in that position, and maybe point them to this podcast episode and say, I'd love to partner with you. I mean, wouldn't it be fun if you had associates coming to you potential associates? And saying, I know you don't have an associate program, but I would
love to? Yeah, I mean, obviously, people have stretch. But
But no, it's not. Because people will reach out to more established photographers to say things like, hey, if I could ever shadow you, if I could ever do this, if you ever needed assistance. So that's not it's not unreasonable. That is kind of happening already. But this is a, this is kind of a one hand washing the other sort of situation where everybody benefits because that, for me, that is the goal. And I think that's why my current team is so happy and does so well is that
everybody is taken care of. And I am I really believe in being totally transparent with my associates about my intentions, my goals, what I'm making on their sessions are and, and I make sure that they feel good about what they're making. And then after we have a good year, the next year, you know, we increase that flat rate or a little bit they are they're at 350. Now that three, they started at 300. So and they're happy about it, and they're usually very enthusiastic to
take on these jobs. And that, you know, they're mostly younger than me. More energy and time. Yeah,
absolutely. Well, and I love that idea of once you've worked with me for a certain amount of time, this is how much your rate goes up. Because they are demonstrating to you that they are trustworthy, they are delivering, what they are promising that they're going to deliver, etc. And, you know, on the back end that it sort of gives them the incentive to stick around. That's super smart. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, and I will happily meet with them to counsel them on their own businesses, when they're trying one of them is I don't want to blow up her spot. I don't think I will. One of them is trying to leave her day job so that she can go full time. And I'm kind of working with her on an exit plan on how to do that. And I love that for her. I want her to be able to have you know, this unlimited income potential doing something
she loves. So it's, it's really, I would say another prerequisite to being able to take on Associates is having the mindset of wanting to see others
succeed. Because if you are coming from scarcity, if you have like lack mentality, then you're going to have a really Hard time when you see your associates improve when your associates might, I've had it happen where one of my associates did many sessions and a family I've worked with once or twice before, signed up and worked with her, and then hired her privately. And that's their choice, you can never you and that could or would have happened with any other
photographer. So I, I'm okay with that there's, there's still new leads coming in and plenty of work to go around. So you have to really be okay with that and be the type of person who likes seeing other people do well.
Amazing. Well, I feel like everything that you've just described in terms of who needs Associates has my name written all over it? Kind of thing. So to I going to sign up when you are ready for your you know, when you start teaching your your wisdom here. Speaking of which, I know that you are working on sort of developing some education around this tell everybody where they can find you if they're interested in learning more.
So right now, you mentioned that in your Facebook group. Some you know, there are people looking for this information. One of those people has already signed on with me and we're beginning a custom coaching like a 12 week private thing with her in November's because she's ready to build her Associate Program and wants to do it. Right. So I mean, we Yeah, so once I'm done with her, we'll have I'll have a really good idea of what what everybody
else is going to need. Yeah, but in the in the meantime, people can go to Jill C Smith photography slash scale. And they can get this little freebie downloadable thing, five mistakes that you want to avoid when you're building your associate program. And through that, you will be able to get notified when my course is ready. But in the meantime, anybody who wants a little bit hand holding and any assistance with that we can talk and get on a discovery call. And I do offer
mentorship year round. So that's always that's always an option. And yeah,
if you are a Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill photographer, and you're interested in being an associate, hit me up. Ya know, Jill, this has been so inspiring. I love this. I mean, I say this all the time on the show, but like thinking creatively about your business and thinking about your business from outside of like, this is what's done in the photography industry. It is inspiring, it's so impressive. And I believe that this is how photographers go from sort of struggling to
succeeding and thriving. And so I really appreciate you be being willing to come on the show and sort of share your knowledge and your wisdom. It's been great. And and I can't wait to hear more once you're through the beta and sort of Intuit will have you back on and you can you can share some more.
Thank you, Ana. Me, I appreciate that. And yeah, see, I think you are well overdue for soc.
I've been busy in other regards. Yeah, it's always I should do that. And then it's you know, finding the time but I do I think that that would be a great next step. It sounds really exciting to me. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much. And, and I will catch you next time. Thank you so much. Well, that's it for this week's episode of This can't be that hard. I'll be back Same time,
same place next week. In the meantime, you can find more information about this episode, along with all the relevant links, notes and downloads at this can't be that hard.com/learn If you liked the podcast, be sure to hit the subscribe button. Even better, share the love by leaving a review in iTunes. And as always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.