¶ Intro
I don't think we have the intel that we should. I think there's more to this than we know. Thanks blocking this, they know something that we don't have. They know how the financial systems work and what will work long term, won't.
It seems like Bitcoin was the trojan horse almost get everybody to come into this technology and acid class, so to speak. Buy meme coins, buy NFTs, buy all coins. But now tradify is taking over and they're saying, hey, here's our tukenized version of our stocks and equities.
Yeah. Meme coins represent the Internet's culture and that collides with financial markets.
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to get your treasure device set up. You get one on one customer support from their team, so you can check that out as well. So once again, I'm a big fan of this hardware wallet. So if you'd like to learn more, visit the link in the description. Hey, everyone, welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward and joining me today is Amanda Whitcroft, who is the founder of Witcroft PR and the host of Get to the Point podcast. Amanda, great to have you.
Thank you so much for having me Tony.
Yeah, I've been looking forward to this conversation and lots of talk about as far as what's happening in the market, and certainly to get your perspectives. But let's kick it
¶ Amanda's background
off with your background. Tell us about where you're from and your professional background.
Yeah, and by the way, I've been following your channel for a really long time, so what an honor to be your guest now. But I was born on Staten Island, and you know, I was very young when my parents moved my sister and I to upstate New York, not too too far upstate. People get very you know, frustrated when I say upstate because I was a Hudson Valley area. If you're familiar, it's been an hour and a half
up state from New York City. Yeah, very beautiful, very rural part of New York, you know, farmland, small town. I grew up in a town called Campbell Hall, and it was it was very pretty, very boring as a kid growing up, but as an adult you really come to appreciate that quietness.
Yeah, you know, I'm kind of going through that phase. I grew up in New York and Queens so pretty much went to school in the city, hung out in the city a lot. Now I'm in the burbs in New Jersey. And when I did that move in twenty twenty, I thought I was going to miss the city so much. I was going to be like miserable out in the burbs. But now I appreciate it having a backyard, having to quietness, and I'm still in proximity to the city so I can go out and hang out if I.
Need to exactly, And that's really what the accessibility to a city is everything. So but now I actually I live in Charleston, South Carolina, so I was living also, I was in the city during COVID and we all know how that went. So I left and came down here and it's like COVID didn't even happen down here, which is so funny. You know New York, we all know everything shut down. You couldn't do anything. You had to stand six feet apart. Here people were going to
concerts and it's just a completely different world. But it's also like you said, there's a backyard, there's a different it's a little bit of a slower life, which is a different pace than I'm used to. But it's nice to be kind of humbled by that, and you know, travel elsewhere and see different different walks of life.
Absolutely, and especially when you have kids, like it makes things a lot easier. Tell us about Woodcraft pr and as well as your podcast.
Sure, so Whitcroft PR. I founded this company. So I initially it was panneda PR in marketing and I rebranded. This was almost ten years ago now, which is wild to think about, but I started in hospitality, So I had my business in New York City and I grew it with close to thirty restaurants and hotels in that area,
and then covid hit. I lost everyone within a week time span, and I pivoted because I had a girl working with me at the time who was very well versed in crypto and blockchain, and you know, just like your podcast, I completely immersed myself in all these things that we have at our disposal now. I took classes online and I just went down the rabbit hole on Twitter, learned everything I could, and I built my business back bigger than ever in this space.
That's amazing. What kind of drew you into crypto? Was it? You know, the emergence of this technology, you know what was kind of a aha moment for you?
So it was it was really big cooin, I mean, you know it was it was bitcoin. It was My first real exposure to crypto was around twenty nineteen, and it was just I remember too, I was I was co hosting another podcast called Kryptonized, and I had these these KOLs like Natalie Brunell and other people who didn't even have that big following. They had their following from their previous careers if they were journalists or that, but they were just getting into this space. So it's kind
of wild to see the timeline of things now. But like many people, at first, I was skeptical. There was so much noise and hype around the space. It was kind of hard to separate, you know, what was real and what was just speculation. So my real aha moment came when I stopped thinking about crypto purely as just this asset class and I really started understanding it as in structure. And I feel like that's happening a lot
even now, especially in a bear market. So once you realize that blockchain is essentially a new financial rail, you know, similar to how the Internet was created, as this a new way of information to be accessible to all of us, it really changes how you view the entire ecosystem.
Yeah, you know, it's great. It's great. That's a great
¶ Understanding crypto
perspective because it's very challenging for a lot of folks to recognize that and the paradigm shift of this technology because they're so used to looking at companies, well, what's
your revenue and what's your stock price? Right, So the concept of a network a blockchain network that's globally distributed and you can be a participant on a network by holding the token or building something on It is like this completely new model, and it is you know, you had like one buffet and all these guys come on to Bigcoin's rat poison Square, Larry Fink, CEO Black Rock at one point saying this is all a scam. Jamie Dimond,
you know how he feels. And now all of a sudden, all these guys are like, yeah, we get it.
We got to build with this, Yeah, exactly. And I think that's probably my most that's the most interesting to me is the convergence of traditional finance with the digital asset, because I don't think there was ever there was a point in time, and in fact, my latest substat kind of covers this. There was a point in time where where it seems like crypto and even the infrastructure was going to replace traditional finance. And I think that's why there was so much speculation, is because it did not
seem possible. And now that there's more of this quiet not so quiet anymore, there's a blend that even your Larry Finks and Jamie Dimonds of the world can no longer deny. Now this becomes interesting because now this is becoming more realistic, especially from a regulatory standpoint where you have an administration and depend you know. The other thing I didn't like is depending on who's in office was
kind of how the market shifted. You know. So when Trump leaves, whoever comes in next, you know, do they have the power to undo the legislation that Trump is about to put into place? Scent. But I think that's where we have to align with traditional finance markets because then that's kind of untouchable once it integrates.
That's a great point because like it or not, if Blackrock, JP, Morgan in these powerhouses are on board with this technology and they want to build it, and they're saying this is the future of finance, no way in hell is Congress, regardless of which party, they're going to be able to pull this.
Back exactly because it's now it's an underlying part, it's the foundation blocks of how people are earning saving you Now it's a part of the government in terms of debt. You know, you're watching stable coins that are literally buying up US treasuries. You know, So now what was once just you know, collecting data off of the dollar. It's now becoming a part of the digital dollars. So that's that's my most interesting that that's what I'm most interested of right now.
Pardon the interruption. Hi, I'm Tony. I'm the host of the Thinking Crypto podcast. I wanted to ask you if you can please support the podcast by hitting the like button subscribing. If you haven't as yet, you can leave a comment below as well. And if you're listening on a podcast platform such as Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts, please be sure to follow and hit the five star rating. I'll let you get back to the content. Thank you so much. A man, I don't
¶ Bitcoin a trojan horse?
know what do you think about this. It may sound conspiratual or conspiratorial, let's say word it there. But it seems like bitcoin was the trojan horse almost get everybody to come into this technology and acid class, so to speak. Buy meme coins, buy NFTs, buy all coins. But now Tradify is taking over and they're saying, hey, here's our tukenized version of our stocks and equities. And don't get
me wrong, there are benefits there. Here are US dollar back stable coins and maybe you can kind of forget about the NFT meme coin things. I don't know, it seems that that's direction we're headed. And also Cbdc's yeah, I think.
You know, when you look at meme coins and NFTs, meme coins represent the Internet's culture and that collides with financial markets. So they're they're driven largely by community humor and momentum rather than your fundamentals. So that's where a lot of them fade away over time. But you know, and again from a PR and marketing standpoint, they do demonstrate how powerful online communities can be when they rally around a shared narrative and then you have you know,
NFTs are a bit different. So of course we all know the speculative art phase. They grabbed headlines, they you know, but then there was the underlying technology, and there was the digital ownership, and there was the verifiable you know providence where we saw that that was that was something
shaping the next wave of NFTs. So there was utility with ticketing, you know, gaming, digital identity, uh, intellectual property like so n f ts in my opinion, are way more powerful today than they and I know that they were trying to rebrand that even to digital collectibles. I think they were trying to kind of massage that wording
into the culture theme coins. I think they need to rebrand that now too because of all the the rug pulls with meme coins and just but if you read the tiny print in meme coins, you know you are it's gambling. It's one hundred percent. You're taking a risk. NFTs, I think are still figuring themselves out. But I just I feel like it's almost the casino of this ecosystem, both of these things. Until NFTs figure figure its figures
its way out, that's where that exists. But meme coins, you know, again, I think I feel like it's almost gen Z's way of entering into this world. It's like, try it, try it a bit, look at what's look at who's in the you know, in the industry, look at some of the stakeholders, because there is to say to it. It helps. It's an open doorway to entering this market. You know. It's like because when you come into mean coins, you don't just stay in mean coins.
It always seems to be like a rabbit hole similar to X of like that that's your start of something you know, way more, it's like a gateway to this industry.
Sometimes, Yeah, it's funny, you know, it's it's good and bad, right,
¶ Memecoins and capital formation
It has its pros and cons because to your point, this technology is so fascinating and has tons of benefits. So that same concept of mean coins and crowd sourcing around a movement that could be used for good in raising funds for people who need help, entrepreneurs who are saying, hey, here's my idea, you can bet on me. I feel like that's the future. Just human beings are going to
be human beings. So like, there's going to be a mean coin around the most dumb thing, right, this cat eating ice cream, I don't know, something like that, and it goes viral. It's so so wild.
Yeah, well that and then there becomes a conversation also of the pay to play, you know, influencers, which I've been very vocal about, and a lot of your mean coins like I hate that hok to a girl who created a pan. You know, it's it's also kind of a representation of our society today. Is if you're going to buy a mean coin because you were, you know, a fan of Hawk to a girl, I think that says more about where your investments and priorities are more
so than the risk of this industry. And it's like and and again with the pay to play models, a lot of your KOLs in the space are not forthcoming
about their paid partnerships. So they're backing tokens or they're backing projects that you know they're not they're not organically promoting, they're being paid to and then people are getting So you really have to be very smart when you approach this industry because there's a lot of I mean, and I can say that from the for the culture at large, not just crypto, it's a lot of celebrities and influencers that it's just we need to be more critically thinking when it comes to investment.
Yeah, and education piece is you needed. I try my best to remind people about that, and note that if you're going to invest in mean coins, it's like going to the casino throwing it on red or black. I don't understand who's maybe behind it. Right. There are some legit meme coins if I want to say that, like dosee coin, proven been around for a long time, has a brand, has a community, has adoption in the real world,
where certain brands and companies accepted as payments. But if something was started last week, you got to be careful. It could be some random DODWS basement getting ready to rug.
You, exactly. And in this economy, I don't even know how many people are still unless you have money to just throw away, I guess good on you, but I don't. I'm not looking at meme coins.
Yeah. Same, That's something I stay away from. And some people they do give me crap for it. They're like, oh, you're missing out on this. I'm like, no, thanks, I'm gonna invest in somebody these projects that are actually getting adoption from institutions.
Exactly.
You mentioned the economy, and obviously things are a bit rough right now going on, and I think this had
¶ Crypto bear market
to play. This played a part in the crypto market maybe not being as spectacular as we've seen in the past cycles where you had euphoria, parabolic one up, retail flooding in right. We didn't have that this past cycle,
and a lot of people were disappointed. Bitcoin I think did pretty well, obviously thinking one hundred and twenty six thousand, but then there was talks of manipulation potentially October tenth or eleventh last year, and the big cascading effect after that, you know, what are your thoughts on how kind of the bull market ended? And it was lackluster.
It was lackluster, and I think, you know, one of the biggest developments in the past few years has, like I said, been the gradual embrace of crypto by traditional finance institutions. And I think that's where we're going to see, even in a bear market that we're in right now.
Your banks, your asset managers, your payment networks, you know, they're recognizing that blockchain technology can improve settlement times, transparency efficiencies, like like you mentioned black Rock launching bitcoin ETFs, you know, or major financial institutions exploring digital asset custody, and so I think that signals that crypto is no longer on the fringe so to speak, you know, it's instead it's
it's becoming one. And I think also off of that is you have tokenization, and that's again another area I'm most excited about. So you're you you know, it simply means you're representing real world assets on blockchain rails, and that could be real estate, commodities, equity, is private credit.
And so I think that gets really interesting because we've been sitting in these cycles at bull Bear, you know, and I just went on proof of PR to talk about you know, if your if your company is dependent on the market in terms of its it's relevance, then it's fragile, I really do. It's so we have to be able to move past just the markets and how how we And that's why infrastructure is most important in
my opinion. You know, historically asset classes have been difficult to access unless you're a large institution or you're a high net worth investor. So I think things like this, this trad fi movement, tokenization, it has the potential to make things more efficient and not so dependent on the markets.
Yeah, it's a brave new world. And when you think about you know, Larry Finks said a couple of years ago or two or three years ago that tokenization is the future of finance. So it seems everybody's in the race on Wall Street to tokenize as many of equities as possible plus commodities. Right, They're looking to do gold and much more and then put you know, any of their fancy financial products, money market funds and these things on chain. And eventually I think you're going to get
to real estate. So it's going to be really crazy, Amanda. I think in maybe ten years time, all the stock exchanges are twenty four to seven, everybody's training twenty four to seven. We might need AI it just to help us while we're sleeping, because it's going to be crazy.
Yeah, but think about with that, I feel that that makes the economy boom. You know, it's like you are no longer. I think there is good to AI. Despite the headlines that we're reading of it taking over, I don't think we're going to see that in our lifetime because that's where you have no economy. How can you have an economy if you don't have humans working. You know, you need the tax base, you need the people at the end of the day, but you also do need
a technology that is assisting humans. And I think that's what it will always be. It will be a tool that we use, not that replaces us in order to because we're in such a very volatile time, probably one of the worst in our history, and just from a culture standpoint as well, and I think it's going to help to settle all of that to some degree.
That's a great point. And there are so many macroeconomic
¶ Tech changing the world
and geopolitical factors happening right now, and that's going to change the I think there's a book. I forget what it's called. The title escapes me. But the point is, I don't know if it's the Fourth Turning, but it's a time of major change. Essentially, is the TLDR. And I guess maybe this all started with the Internet because because of the Internet, then you can have scalability for technology like blockchain and the movement of data information plus AI.
So it's like maybe like the Industrial Revolution that took place in the late eighteen hundreds into early nineteen hundreds with the automobile, the combustion engine, and electricity. You know that was such a major disruption. If you feel like we're in that type of moment and it's so disruptive, yes, there's going to be like peaks and valleys where some industries get wiped out, some jobs get wiped out, but
new ones get created eventually. To your point, if these AI agents and robots, human and I robits are part of the workforce and economy, what does that mean for a lot of people in jobs? Could it be universal basic income has to be.
On the table exactly. I think it's just a recalibration. It's a total reset as to how we're thinking of the workforce because it's been a lot of where we're just kind of coasting at this point with how we've been working and how we've been operating. And I think AI forces people to finally deal with, Okay, we need to be utilizing talent in a different way. So I actually started my career in Hollywood. I started at the talent agency, and I worked for a director and things
like that. So of course, the biggest headline as we know is AI is going to replace actors. And you know, and to me, coming from that world of talent management and production, you watch your NEPO babies, you know, take opportunities from rising talent. You watch celebrities take on nationwide commercials that could have been given to a no name who's just trying to audition and make a name for themselves. And so to me, you know, you get kind of
jaded and you're like, well, what's what's the problem? AI should walk right in. You're not focused on talent, clearly, it's who you know or you know, you've got to be a celebrity in order to get the parts so what do you care if AI walks right in and takes But see, to me, it's forcing an industry to go, Okay, we need to we need to hone in more on talent because otherwise here's what's going to happen. And I
think the same for every single industry. It does make you rethink what you have and how to use it.
Yeah, that's a great point. It's fascinating. There's a look.
I try to keep a balance because there's a dystopian angle to it, and you don't want to be too immersed in a dystopian But there's also pros, right, Like I often try to tell people who are like, oh my god, he's going to destroy a sky net and I'm like, no, But think about a humanoid robot that's helping your grandma, right, or someone's old or someone who's disabled, and the things they will help them to do and make their lives better and help up improve our driving
and all these different things. Right, mitigate a lot of the problems and risk not eliminate all of it, of course, right, But there's tons, tons of benefits and it could maybe you know, the humanoid robot or these AI agents can go out and do things and earn for you and that frees you up to do things.
You love and exactly and who can argue with that? And I know there are I think we also need to accept that there are pros and cons to everything. You know, look at what social media has done to the world. Did we I think even your your people who have built these platforms didn't realize how the technology was moving faster than they even expected to have the
you know, effects that it did on humanity. So I also think we need to accept that there will be a downside, but we need to be a little more realistic that it's not just going to come in and take us over. Because I actually just had Trevor kuberco On get to the point a couple of weeks ago, and it's interesting because he's all about training these data sets, and I'm like, how do you train the AI when so many people are now, you know, using it, including myself,
to rewrite something or make something sound better. And it's so you're getting so much data now that people are the output is all AI that when the AI is scraping data, how do they differentiate now from what's human and what's now coming back as their own output, and he actually was having issues answering the question because it's so true, so many people are reliant on this technology. You're now losing human data for the AI to extract.
Yeah, and I also wonder if we are so you know, humans tend to go through the cyclical patterns and sometimes we get tired of board of things and we look for the opposite. So maybe eventually, Amanda, like, we are so immersed with AI and humanoid robots that we start longing for human interaction and real human feelings and emotions that we do figure it out and we find that balance.
Over time, exactly, And that's part of the recalibration. And I think it's a I think it's going to be a great thing because we are repeating history to a certain degree, and I do I think there's going to be like a boomerang where we're going to need more human and I hope for our children, you know that there is that boomerang because we need we need human like we need the in person, and I think we've lost that a little bit.
Yeah, you know, everything that's happening in the crypto market.
¶ Banks vs Stablecoin yield
There's a big debate happening in DC between the banks and the crypto industry. The banks want to block stable corn rewards and yield, which I actually hate because we know, if you got a regular checking or savings account, you're getting zero point zero one percent. They give you to bread crumbs while they keep the majority of the returns right and they're trying to hold up the Clarity Act. You know, what are your thoughts on that situation?
You know, the regulatory to be often centers on consumer protection or how how stable coins might interact with with the traditional banking system. So some banks have expressed concern because stable coins could compete with certain aspects of the deposit model. At the same time, thoughtful regulation should strengthen the ecosystem and it should accelerate adoption because we're ensuring transparency.
So another point I often emphasize is that in many emerging markets, stable coins are not a speculative tool at all. They're they're actually a financial lifeline, and it's for people dealing with you know, unstable local currencies. That's a that's a very different lens than how the technology is sometimes
sometimes viewed here in the US. So I think it's yeah, I think stable coins are fascinating because of that intersection that they're sitting at, and they're they're essentially they're digital dollars, so they're they're providing more access for people than I think ever before.
Yeah, and I wish these banks were but look, I get it, they're the incumbents. They're getting disrupted. But I like to share the addingdotal example of myself. Like I'm a JP Morgan Chase customer. I have my stuff and my money, my savings and checking. Of course, I have larger investment accounts with you know, other folks, but I also have some money on coinbase and uphold, where I'm earning stable coin rewards and it's higher than what JP Morgan's giving me in the savings, and not to mention,
I'm staking crypto as well. So I feel like these banks are trying to block the ability for consumers to earn more. They should just compete, launch your own stable coins or up the interest rates. But yeah, I think I.
Think they're way to First of all, I don't think we have the intel that we should. I think there's more to this than we know because banks blocking this, in my opinion, they just they know something that we don't have that that's my gut. And again I'm putting my tinfoil hat on here, but I have to think that because they've been around for so long that I feel like they know how, you know, how the financial systems work and what what will work long term what won't.
And while I appreciate what coinbase is doing, you know, I also think we like that convergence needs to happen more so than replacement because, like I mentioned before, all of this legislation, the Genius Act, that can be overturned the minute somebody new comes into office who, let's just say, isn't bullish on crypto or it doesn't like these new rails that have been So I think there needs to be kind of a middle ground in terms of how we work with the banks as opposed to you know,
crypto's the new uh, the new financial but stable coins. Yeah, I hope I'm explaining this properly. I think they'll just strengthen that ecosystem as opposed to replacing it.
Yeah. And you know, I saw Jamie Diamond CEO jpen Morgan. He was complaining a bit, and it's like, just compete, man, either up your interests that you paid to consumers, then you wouldn't have to go to stable coins. If JP Morgan was giving me, you know, you weren't keeping the line share of what they get from their money park to the FED, then you know, I wouldn't necessarily have to go to coinbase and or you know, I think the banks should just launch their own stable coins. I
think that's the direction of Puck's heading in. I think just this morning I saw Wells Fargo they filed for some sort of pattern or something like that around the stable coin that they're going to look to launch. Yeah, I think, I don't know, maybe this could be a delay tactic on their end to catch up.
Maybe, I don't you what are your opinions on ETFs that banks are launching, you know, because that's another thing that they're trying to because it's really the banks are for, in my opinion, the older generations. You're never going to get the boomers to all or at least all of them to open coin base accounts and to open you know, they're they're already scared to pick up the phone when
it's a new number that they don't recognize. You know, you're they're going to stick with these name banks even if they're being screwed over because they know what they are and they're gonna stick with what they know. So, you know, ETFs, I feel like, are a bit of a door into this industry without having to completely transform themselves. But I'm curious to hear your opinion.
But yeah, I totally agree. I often give the example of my mom and dad, like they're not gonna go on coinbase and all that, right, but they know of their bank, right, and they know of certain investment firms like your Fidelities and so forth. They're familiar with that, so they would be more comfortable going that route and not having to jump through a whole bunch of hoops. But saying hey, yeah, sure, added to my account. I want to exposure to bitcoin, and they know of the
the asset. They know like I'm in the industry, and they will, Uh my mom and things like I have talked about investing in it, but she going on coinbase. Hell now she's gonna go through like her local banks. So I think it's a huge on. Wrap the ETFs and then the banks and these institutions, which you know, the masters are familiar with, certainly helps with the adoption.
So I think that certainly works. And then it's also crypto has not how should I put it, It hasn't reached a standard yet where exploits and vulnerabilities are maybe just one percent of the things that happen. Right, We're seeing a lot of hacks still happen. So I don't think people want to be you know, that will turn off a lot of folks. I think if they go through their trusted institutions, they don't have to worry about
custody or seed phrases. I think that will work out well for a lot of folks.
Yeah, I agree, because it's not just your boomers, it's even your millennials who are skeptics who are staying away from these things, who they just you know, there is like a comfortability with your with where you put your money, and I agree with you. I think banks are kind of buying time to catch up to how to approach the younger generations. But the current approach I think they're being very cautious of because it's too it's you can't
go zero to one hundred, which I agree with. You're not going to get a budy simply because this is the trend on Twitter. I think people tend to live in this bubble on Twitter in our industry. But when you when you zoom out outside of that, you know, people don't know these names, people don't know the and so that's kind of the the barrier to entry there is when you get off of these platforms, even Telegram.
You know, you talk to people millennials and you say the word telegram outside of this industry and people are like, what is it? Well, yeah, you know WhatsApp. Why don't
they know Telegram? Why don't they know Discord? And that's where I say, like, if you zoom outside of this bubble that we're in, Uh, That's that's really where I think the real conversation happens and needs to happen, because we need to learn outside of the safari we're on, who these people are and how we need to how we need to market to them.
Yeah, that's a great, great point. So you're telling me,
¶ Michael Saylor Strategy
Amanda Michael Sailors tweets about bigcoin is the lifeline and it's the Messiah. Are not going to convince them millions and billions of people.
No, His ai generated images of him with a with a giant and gladiator suits just not gonna not gonna sell my boomer Mom. I'm sorry, Like, it's not gonna happen.
It'll probably be turned out like is this a cult? Is this? What is this? Like?
Yeah, he is, you know. I have an interesting story about Michael Saylor. I I went to Bitcoin DC on behalf of a client October of last year, and he was supposed to do something for us, and and it didn't work out. We were we were going back and forth with his assistant, because that's the only way you get in touch with Michael Sailor, you got to go
through his assistant. And and that's fine. He's a busy guy, as we all know, you know, generating those AI images of himself and gladiator suits and uh so the only way I wanted to get in front of him in d C. And I was determined, and he was promoting
his book there. So there was this long line and I waited on this line and I finally get to the front of it and they ran out of books and there was a guy there was a guy right behind me was so eager to meet him, huge fan, and I think they had said they had one book left, and I said, just can't just go ahead because I didn't want a book. I didn't want I just wanted to talk to him, so I said, go ahead, take the last book. And then they said, oh, I'm so sorry,
we actually ran out of books. And he looks at me and I said, I'm so sorry. I don't I actually don't want a book. I just want to talk to you. And I said who I was and who I was representing, and I said, you know, i'd love if we could, if you could just make an appearance really quickly, and he, I don't know how, but out of nowhere, his assistant came up from behind him and
he just completely shoved me off onto her. Didn't stop what like, just was like, goodbye, you don't want my signature, you don't want my book, get out of my face. And the kid, his fan, saw this all happen and said, well, well, I don't think I'm a fan of his anymore. He was just so dismissive. And I kind of was turned off by that experience, because you know, here's a guy
who's supposed to be this tech nerd. Right autism has apparently become a very trendy personality type in this industry, because you're a tech nerd but I see a guy who's become very, very into himself and celebrity like and like I said, coming from Hollywood, I left that industry for a good reason and I have no tolerance and there is really no reason for an ego even when you meet that you know, that place of success, and it just yeah, completely turned me off.
Yeah, and look, you're not the only one that feels that way. I know some very staunch Bitcoin maxis who are turned off by what Michael Saylor is doing. And I have my concerns because of the amount of debt and leverage he's using to buy bitcoin, and I think he needs you know, there are digital acid treasury companies, and there are companies who simply are saying, hey, we're going to take some of our cash on our balance sheet and buy some bitcoin. That's how it started the movement.
And then he put it on steroids and I think it's a Initially it was a benefit he was spreading the message about bitcoin, but now I believe it's becoming a risk, and I'm worried because if micro strategy collapses or strategy collapses, that would be detrimental to bitcoin and the crypto market. It'll be a really bad staying on the industry. Yeah.
Well, his whole his entire company is a hedge against bitcoin. I mean, that's that in itself is very You even have Bitcoin Maxi's who are just like, oh, you know, don't you want to maybe like get into the other So but that's why I think he's doing. He's getting into these other markets when really it just to me, it's one headline after the next to look a certain way as opposed to actually backing you know, the currency or the infrastructure itself.
Yeah, and I'm hoping, you know, nothing bad happens with strategy because it would just it would be like another FTX, even though I'm not trying to say he's a scammer or anything like that, but we know how the headlines will look. Yeah, we know what. I'm going to get calls some people like, hey, what happened to bigheads? I'm going to have to go through that again.
No, exactly. Well that's why you know, bitcoin and it's a great I love the idea of it. I loved it, but you also need good people behind it in order for it to move forward. And I do think there are good faces behind bitcoin outside of Michael Saylor, but he does scare me, and I would think anybody who's being very honest in the industry would say the same.
He's a scary face because I'm telling you, one day stuff that's going to come out about this guy, and it's like then everybody's going to have to like reset and find somebody else to make the face because unfortunately he is one of the faces a bitcoin. So they're going to have to, you know, rebrand Bitcoin.
Yeah, I don't know how that happens or who's who's going to be the replacement or maybe a maan it is we alluded to earlier, the et apps, Right, maybe it's black Rock, and I'm not saying I want that, but maybe the trad five folks become the face, right because Blackrock has the largest Bitcoin ETF, it's the fastest growing ETF and his vts, so maybe they become the face.
Honestly, I get behind that one hundred percent. You can't you cannot change what exists in that you know, we're a capitalist nation and you would be foolish to think that you can change what exists because crypto has you know, momentum and the yield that people are having as opposed to banks traditional finance, Like you have to see that there is power in the migration of these two things.
One of the things we mentioned earlier was the Clarity Act,
¶ Clarity Act
the crypto marketstructure build that's currently being blocked because of the debate between the banks and the crypto industry. But once that's passed, Amanda, I feel like there's going to be this massive innovation boom. More of the trad five folks will be able to invest more money and build and push a lot of things in production. So do you feel the same way that this is kind of the catalyst that's going to kick off and even for the greater risk of race in trying to adopt the technology.
Yeah, I think it's creating a clearer framework, so you know, you have innovators who are finally going to understand the rules of the road. I think a part of the skepticism for many entering and part of the reasons so many builders have have not you know, especially like I said in a bear market, have not moved forward with their projects is because there was no clear framework. So if implemented thoughtfully, you know, I think it should encourage
more companies to build here in the United States. I think, you know, a lot of things that moved offshore. You know, there was already uncertainty, and when you don't build it here in this country, I think that even creates more uncertainty. I also hope a lot of our conferences, you know, these big ones come back to this to the United States. You know, I think we need to stop going to Dubai. I think we need to stop going to you know, I don't mind going to Paris occasionally, but I think
we need to bring our big crypto conferences. Since you know, we have a president right now who is touting, banging on the drums that bring it back here. And if we're sett in this new legislation, let's let's go bring bring these big conferences back to the United States.
Yeah, well said, I'm hoping a lot more of that happens here in the States. And you know, the the entrepreneurs and the builders, many who left under the Biden Gainster era, they start coming back. I know some of them have already done so. But I think when the Clarity Act is passed, I think we're going to see a lot of folks because look, we have the largest capital markets, and I would think that in itself would attract a lot of folks, plus the clarity that we were absolutely.
I just hope it stays that way too, because, like you know, if you get one president in who does all this great all these great things, you know, and then the next president comes in and can overturn all of it in two seconds. And that's where I think the infrastructure part of this is the most important thing.
Yeah. The good the good thing that we are seeing is that. And I know this firsthand because I interviewed a lot of Democrats in the binary such as Rocanna, Darren Soto, while nikel On a bunch of others. They were pro technology, pro crypto. They just couldn't say anything or come out against the party because Elizabeth Warrene was sitting at the top financial seat. So and and I even off the record conversations, they were like, yeah, look,
there's only so much I can say. This shouldn't be a political issue at all.
Great.
Yeah, but and thankfully there's many more Democrats, Richie Torres and and all these guys who have been doing a great job. Senator Chris Kristen Jillibrand as well, big big advocate of crypto. So I'm glad that more of the Democrats are able to come out and state their positions, and you know, they believe in this technology. So I'm optimistic that hopefully aman we don't have anybody come and roll things back.
Yeah, and speaking of Elizabeth Warren, we need John deaton to get in there. You know, I hope he's. If I were in Massachusetts, I would vote for that guy in two seconds. But I hope he. I hope he wins this time.
Yeah. I mean, I'm a big fan of John's. I consider i'm a friend. I've had him on for years. You know, when the SEC filed the lawsuit against Ripple, we were doing interviews talking about this and it was crazy times on there against the regime.
Yeah, he's he would be a great because I agree. You know, you bring up a good point too. I mean, we only think of certain regulation because these big bills that we're talking about can only be passed at the
federal level. But I think there's a lot to be set on the local levels, on the state level as well, which is, you know, we're at least as a middle class tax paying citizen, you know, you have a little bit more leverage to make an impact, and I think there's something to be said for that from a crypto perspective.
Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, we're seeing a lot of states are moving, sometimes faster than the federal government. A lot of them have already set up the ability is set up excuse me, bitcoin reserves where they're investing in bigcin ETFs. I think Wisconsin, Arizona and a bunch of others. Wyoming, of course, has been a big timeader in cryptos. So it's great to see the states be proactive.
Yeah, it's I'm forgetting his last name. I've had I had him on, Dennis. You probably know he's he's a big advocate for bitcoin, but he's he's trying to get His mission is to get the left on board with bitcoin's technology and mission. And I'm forgetting his last name. I'm very upset with myself.
I've had him on and I'm forgetting his same from a fund, right.
Yes, so soci Action fund that he is a great guy and he refuses to say what what side he leans on, but he's he's highly intelligent, and he he is definitely you know to your point this this should not be a bipartisan issue, and he's He's simply said, this is a technology. This is uh, this is a function that we should all be advocating for simply because we're you know, most of this country, whether you're a Democrat or Republican, you're probably in debt because that's where
the government wants you. So just just focus on this and figure it out. You know, this shouldn't be because because Trump is championing it that now everybody is against it.
Yeah, it's so ridiculous that this became a political issue. Like I still look back and like, this is so stupid. Imagine we did this with the Internet, right, and the Internet's a republican they are a democratic. What come on, man, this is so stupid.
That's what we should do. We should just say Instagram, Facebook, these are this is all naga, and then everybody gets off of it. It's just like all right, perf. Now society is healing.
Yeah right, I'm so happy we're moving passes and a lot of it is behind us. They're still a little bit, you know, but I think as we get the Clarity Act pass and these institutions come in, you know, they'll kind of wipe the slate clean because it will just be like, Hey, you've been with us for twenty years, John, We now offer a crypto. Would you like to invest? And it'll be just that, not it's political. It's this and that and X and Michael Saylor just would you like to get access to the US.
It's a shame, you know, and I think also social media, the Internet has pulled out so much that we you know, the banks set are in cahoots with the government, and then the government is now you know, Bitcoin's initial mission. You know, when you read the white paper of Satoshi, it's it was supposed to be not government. I mean, these were created by hardcore libertarians that were against government.
Now you've got government. Now you got people posing in pictures with the Trump's Eric Trump, you know, Donald Trump Junior own billions in bitcoin. I mean, there's there's something to be said about what's happening and also what the initial mission was and when we have to move with it, because let's face it, you cannot move this forward meaningfully
in today's climate without regulation, without the government. Now how much government involvement that's you know, that's becomes a question of debate where I can start to get a little like eh, but but we do we do need the involvement. I'm not gonna, you know, be that person that's like, how do you move something forward as a liberty Harry, I don't know. I love that get the government out
of my life. I'm all for it, but how you know, And like I said, I'm also an advocate of tradfi meets crypto, So how can I how can I be a libertarian but also a champion of that? And that's that's kind of where we sit now. There's so much that's moving so quickly. It's hard not to be a hypocrite at some point in how you think because you don't know what to think anymore. It changes so quickly.
Yeah, it's pretty wild, and it's so different from the early days when bigcoin was started. And look, I don't know if I should say this, but it feels like Bitcoin is being taken over and it's no longer what maybe the vision of the white paper is right. Don't get me wrong. I think it's still a great investment, still hard money, but it's not Peter peer cash. You know how about that?
I do? I will say there's a part of me that feels it's losing its value and it's so sad to say this because of the voices behind it. I'm just gonna not all, not all of them, but there is it's losing a little bit of its of its luster because it's it's too it's like oversaturated, if that makes any sense. And there I don't you know, you hear things like z cash coming in, you hear things like quantum computing coming in, and I I do fear
for what's what's coming. I'm I've been an investor in bitcoin for a very long time now and I and I'm saying this so I don't know.
Yeah, we're gonna have to see how this all plays out, man. But certainly out of bitcoin came the blockchain revolution and I think we're seeing that on fold and uh, that's going to change the economy the world. And uh, you know, we talked about the convergence with AI. So it's pretty wild and it's it's gonna be fascinating to see what's built once the Clarity Act is.
Up one hundred percent.
Before we jump into rapid questions, you know, tell us a bit about your podcast and the type of guests you interview. Is it crypto focused or all tech focus? That type of thing.
Yeah, I do crypto and kind of emerging markets so and and financial as well. And I just I launched it because I felt like so many conversations around these these sectors were either so overly technical or just overly sensational, and I wanted to create a space where, you know, we could have thoughtful, honest conversations with these people shaping the industry. And I'm a huge proponent of the human aspect.
So I know you're very familiar with Eleanor Tarrett. Her and John Deaton were actually my inaugural episode for the podcast, and you know, she she opened up about her sobriety for the first time I'm on my podcast. John Deeton, he literally is an open book. I mean his book already kind of goes into the details of his his very hard upbringing. But he's he's just you can ask
him any questions and he'll he'll tell you everything. And I think that's that's very important when we're exploring, you know, these these things, to explore the bigger picture and and see who's building and why you're building. There's there's so much to be said for the one what people do, because that, to me is what sustains.
Yeah, and what are two great guests to have for your inaugural episode? Both great folks and I know them both well. And Ellie's not far from me. She doesn't look far for me, and we bumped each other all the time, and we've been following each other since boy I think Fox started covering like the SEC and their attack against Crypto against her, So it's the journey has been incredible and it has been great to you know, work with the two of them as well.
Yeah, she really is one of the most refreshing people I have ever met in this industry, and I'm happy to have her in my corner. And she's just I'm really like, talk about trust and reporting. I mean that that is a girl to follow if you're just getting into this industry and trying to learn, especially around policy of course, but she's just everything she posts, I'm like, yep, Okay, that's what I'm gonna pay attention to for sure.
All Right. I mean, I got some wrap up questions
¶ Wrap up questions
here for you. If you could create your own metaverse, will the theme be good?
Question? If I were designing a metaverse, I mean, based on what I do in my pure from probably center around the idea of kind of a global intellectual salon and getting back to what we were discussing earlier about this inpert this need for in person. You know, if you think of a digital environment where entrepreneurs, investors, policy makers from all over the world get together for almost like an eye connections, but you have it in the metaverse,
and you have it for meaningful conversations, collaboration. You know, if it's one thing I've learned from hosting dinners and salons in real life, it's that it's really incredible ideas often come from bringing interesting people together in the same room. So if you have a metaverse version of that and you allow people from anywhere in the world to participate in those types of exchanges, that would be really interesting.
Very cool. Rapid fire questions, favorite food, Italian, favorite musician or band.
I love EDM and I think David Ghetta is probably my.
Favorite favorite movie.
Oh, favorite movie. I'm a big fan of any Christmas Carol. Love a good redemption story.
Favorite book.
Favorite book would be Unbroken by Laura Hill and Brand and it's that's I'm I'm obsessed with anything World War two, So it's a great book.
And when you're not working, what are you doing for a fun?
Well, I'm not working. I always walk at least six or seven miles every single day.
Wow.
I make it a point to step away from my laptop for just it helps me where. You know, occasionally I like to find a good dive bar with good karaeok.
Nice. I miss going to dive bars. I love memories.
Rare occasion, but I love it.
Now you're a parent now, and now as a parent, I can't do.
I love you know, everything is such a I just brought my son to the beach for the time yesterday because you know, here in Charleston, it's right there, and it's such a you know, the things you have to pack and the everything is such a process. Now I remember, like just to walk out the door, get in your car and go somewhere. I had no idea that that was a LUXURIANX.
Right, tell me about it. Oh my gosh. I now have the beach cart. So if I'm pulling this like heavy thing and I'm dying out there and it's so hard to pull in this hand because it's like.
You know, everything's to work. I'm looking at my arms the other day and it looks like I'm lifting and I'm just nope, just just my son.
Yeah. Oh man, uh well, I guess you different phases of life, right, and and yeah, that's how it goes, Amanda, great stuff. Enjoyed the conversation, and I'm looking forward to having you back on and possibly us collaborating and interviews and things along those lines. So that's a bit of a hint to the get my listeners and yours. But thank you so much for joining me, Thank you so much for having me. This is a lot of thank you so much for tuning in. Please hit the like button,
subscribe if you haven't as yet. If you're listening on a podcast platform such as Spotify or Apple, please follow and leave a five star rating. Thank you so much.