We want to make this as open and permissionless and democratic as possible. Also, the lock up is effectively as long as you want, and you could say I'm going to lock this set of XRP for some indefinite amount of time. You can claim the x orp back at any time.
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Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward, and my guest today is Warren Anderson, who is the co founder of Execor Warren.
Great to have you on, always going to be on. Tony Warren.
We spoke I think maybe three months ago, and you know, we did a deep dive into Execor and all the great things you guys are doing. Yesterday it was announced that you're enabling xrpiece steaking, which is really big and a lot of people want to learn about this. And of course you worked at Ripple back in the day, which is pretty cool. But for those who may not know, give give us a quick overview of excor.
Yeah sure, and yeah, I remember when you're asking, you know, if there's any important announcements will be coming out that maybe tailored to your audience to to ping you. So I did. So we're excited to obviously thrilled to support XRP as a it's the actual the first time that
XRP will have staking yield, which is really cool. Exocre was architected as a layer one blockchain and it effectively sits, you could say, like on top of or next to other layer ones and Exocre right into the layer ones to lock, unlock, and slash, and Exocre kind of serves as like the accounting system for calculating the all the rewards, the distribution, the slashing conditions, and that has all implemented in the extra core Layer one, so it's effectively protocolized.
So you can think of it almost like like an external staking or restaking service. Now, we kind of got started early twenty twenty three, spent a lot of time on the architecture we wanted. You know, obviously I worked on XORP ledgers Layer one. My co founder, r J. Lawn, was the former CTO and co founder of Harmony, and then my third co founder is a luc out of
popas professor UC Berkeley in cryptography and security. So we really wanted to architect this thing to be good stewards of other layer one networks because we built them ourselves. So the XRP or any asset it stays on the XRP ledger. Users can stake it as if it's like a native feature of the XRP ledger, and we make sure there's no there's no bridging onto XOCRE, there's no minting,
there's no rapping, so it's not wrapped XRP. This is native XRP, which is really cool, and we don't have to actually make any changes on the extcore protocol itself. So we're you know, we've announced we're supporting BTC, we're all supporting ETH, we're supporting SOUL. So naturally XRP was like the next like, great, you know token to to support if you kind of go down the list. So but yeah, I'll pause there.
So I'm gonna ask newbie questions, right, XRP, Bitcoin and so forth are not proof of steak block chains obviously, how is how does the steaking component work? Where where does the yield come from?
Sure, so, so if you're familiar with so like this. A lot of this started with with Eigenlayer, who is the kind of the pioneer of restaking starting to be able to restake eth, which obviously Eth is a proof of steak network. The ability to restake it is effectively being able to like stake it again to secure what we call off chain start vices or services that are running not directly you know, with the l one validation logic.
So these are naturally like services like oracles bridges. There's a there's a new case of a lot of like AI use cases or or cryptographic networks, and so effectively what happens is and I like to use analogies. So like if you look back in the Internet of history, history of the Internet, you know, early days you had to kind of spin up your own TCP IP network, like they had Aloha network, they had Darper network, they
had lots of different networks. You almost had to like bootstrap your own network in order to connect with other networks. And then you know, all of a sudden, data everyone kind of consolidated on the CCP IP kind of what we use today, and then you would connect by having effectively servers in a data center. So this is like the Facebook era where Facebook you to have to run to you know, Sunny Vale to their data center there
and literally install servers. And I had a friend on the team who made a ton of money doing this and literally his job all day was just installing servers, listening to like heavy metal and and that was like how they scaled their network. Then you know, the virtual kind of cloud era came where you could just spin up a virtual cloud server on AWS or or Azure or any of these or GCP and literally just click a box where you want to deploy your service set
and then it just goes. So we feel like blockchain is in that first era kind of migrating to the second era, or isn't kind of starting in the second era where we have to like bootstrap these blockchain networks and do a lot of infrastructure build just to make them connect, and then you know, it's it's still a
pretty burdensome experience for most developers. Or if you want to like build on ethereum, it's just like connect to Ethereum maybe has a little ecosystem around or goes around it, but you can't really connect with like easily with like
x orp ledger. So what we are sharing in is this third kind of wave where we're we want to support the virtual cloud of decentralized security so that someone can literally just like with an experience like AWS sign in, say I want to inherit my decentialized security from you know, BTC, ETH and XRP, and here's my wallet address or even here's my you know, uh, stable coin or even credit card,
and I'm going to pay a fee for that service. Uh. And what the service they're actually getting is the actual validation logic from those chains, and so they can run more decentralized services really from scratch at D zero. So they're paying fees. Those fees are going in to contribute to the yield, and so that's where the yield's actually coming from. Got it.
So you mentioned you can do this from your wallet. You don't have to move anything or bridge anything. So which wallets are supported, that's a good question.
We are going to be announcing, you know, different wallets that are supporting the x ORP ledger. I think with market activity like this, it's always great because more and more wallets ad assets where there's high demand. There's clearly high demand for XORP right now. So we are working with a lot of the major wallets, especially those that offer staking as a service. We want the experience to be as native to their user experience as possible and they can just plug in, you know, to pixocor to
handle all the logic. So we want to basically abstract away as much of the hoops as possible and make the experience feel as native as possible because everyone knows, you know, having my first time, you know, sending a transaction for pre ledger and twenty sixteen, twenty fifteen was like, oh my gosh, this is as fast as email. It's pretty awesome. So we will want to make sure that experience is you know, is duplicated through the staking service.
So let's do a mock scenario. So let's say I have five thousand x herpee right in a wallet, and it's one of the wallets which you're going to announce that supports it. How do I go about enabling this like walk us through that process? And maybe it's too early because you know, you still have to do the whole wallet announcement and so forth.
But what would that look like?
And is there a lock up or can I pull in and out at any point?
Yeah, So you basically say you allocate a certain amount of XRP in your wallet. The experience effectively is you look like there's a there'll be a a button where you can literally or kind of drop down select you know, xrp uh and where you want to effectively kind of
delegate that XRP too. That feels almost like a deposit, But the actual tokens aren't really leaving your wallet, right, They're just you're basically just saying I'm going to I'm making this this this commitment to for this amount of XRP. It's going to be subject to earning additional rewards or or just rewards for the first time, and then it's also going to be subject to slashing. What that effectively does, it's going to call to lock that specific set of XRP.
So you know, I was at Ripple when we were working on the x ORP ledger to implement things like cryptographic escrow and these other cryptographic conditions. So the only actual requirements for the XRP ledger is to lock, unlock, and slash, and slashing is effectively being able to send to send the x ORP to a black hole address, which every blockchain has, and then slashing itself has like another set of conditions on it where that x ORP will be sent to a black hole address based on
certain conditions that happen, you know, within the protocol. So so effectively, it just feels like a very intuitive experience where you know this is all happening within your own wallet.
We're really excited about this because again I'm an og kind of crypto guy, and I, for instance, like have bitcoin wallets that are you know, over a decade old, and I have touched them in a long time, and I don't want to necessarily, but if I'm going to, I don't want the bitcoin to leave my wallet ideally, Yeah, I also don't want to require like a lot of trust or counterparty risk, you know, with whatever I'm interacting with.
So we wanted to make sure that experience is is carried through to every single l one that we support.
And then when I'm thinking, is it kind of like ef like, you know, where do I need a minimum mount or it could put any amount? And is there like a lock up like it has to stay there for a certain cycle in order to get the rewards.
Uh So, the we're not sure yet on the minimum I mean, they're obviously there's reserve requirements for for instance, like you know, opening an account bearing that those reserve requirements are met. We don't think that there will be a minimum. We haven't at least heard a case for the why there should be. We want to make this
as as open and permissionless and democratic as possible. Uh. The Also, the lock up is effectively as long as you want, and you could say I'm going to lock you know, this set of XRP for some indefinite amount of time. You can claim the x ORP back at any time. However, there's what you call an unbonding period. Now this is this terminology for people who are only you know, working with the XORP ledger is going to be fairly new. This is a very familiar terminology for
like eth and other POS assets. So there may be some education that needs to happen, but you could effectively claim or unlock your XRP, which would include the rewards that you have earned, and there's going to be some unbonding period. We haven't set exactly for the XRAP ledger yet. Typically, you know there's a window between like roughly average around
twenty one days. The reason for that is there's an attack vector where you could effectively try to spam the network and do something bad and then try to pull your funds out quickly. Right, it's like a hit and run. You want to prevent the hit and run from happening, and the one way to do that is to have a longer un bonding period. And so there's details on that which you're still trying to figure out. But it's
a pretty fair system. Uh. It's also you know, like we said, it's it's we try to make it as trustless as possible, minimize what they call trust assumptions, make it obviously open permission permissionless and uh and and decentralized and and self custody of course, mm hmm.
And this may be a tough question to answer, but you know, what, are you guys thinking the potential yield or returns might be as far as percentage wise and on going?
May be too early to answer this, it's a bit too early, but I'll say anything, uh non zero is an additive to what XOP holders are earning currently, which is zero. I again, you know, I I've been an XOP holder, big holder for a long time. I'm sort of building this for my self because I have XRP and I want that x and I and I hold. I'm a long term holder and sometimes hard, but you know,
I held. So I want my XRP to work for me effectively, right and I want to just kind of set it and forget it and open my wallet one day and be like, oh wow, I earned you know x amount you know, and rewards. That's like a simple request as a user. So we're in a position where we can enable that for other x ORP holders, and I think that's pretty awesome.
Talk to us about security. You know, you mentioned like the funds that the tokens are not leaving your wallet. But are there any risks here because I'm sure people are going to ask about that.
Yep. So for every reward right upside, there's also downside risk. So what the equation here is is your effectively opting into receiving rewards based on the amount of XRP that you stake.
Uh.
And the downside is that those that x RP could be subject to what they call slashing. So slashing happens if there's some violation of the of the underlying protocol. In this case, the violation would be if a service that's consuming that decentralized security or the economic security that you're providing somehow makes a there's an issue, there's a bug in their code. Uh. There they they miss you know, a block on their on their validation, or something happens
they double sign. There's a whole set of conditions. If any of those are violated, then that x RP that you've staked to those operators. And again, by the way, you have total control of where you want your your stake x RP to to secure, so you can choose from a list of services. Uh. There is some risk modeling that some of the some third parties are doing and how to actually assess the risk of these services.
There's lots of different variables, but we do anticipate, you know that there there's going to obviously be you know risk in the system. That's why there's there's reward. There's a few things that that we do as a protocol. One we use something called secure signers. So these are effectively systems that are running in trusted execution environments or tees. It's effectively like effect like a box that that allows for more trustless cryptographic kind of security around minimizing the
amount of errors that that can happen. So like obviously code is like inputs and outputs, it effectively validates the inputs so that the outputs are also you know, fair and valid, and that minimizes a lot of the risk of slashing. This has become a standard in a lot of staking services, especially restaking, and so we're opting or adopting that standard. But these are things that we always
think about. You know, the industry around restaking and staking of new assets is actually pretty new, so we're kind of pushing forward and being very security first, you know about the thinking.
Yeah, absolutely, and I love that you mentioned that there's going be a rating system for some of these protocols, So I'm assuming you guys will help provide that information as well and where people can be Okay, this is less risky, this is high risk, and things like that.
Yeah, we don't, we won't provide the information. Information will be provided like by third parties. You know, there's there's a couple of third parties that are working on some dashboarding already, which kind of helps to for for users to kind of think about how you know where their stated assets should be secured. Again, you're not sending the state assets to these people. You're not like, they're not going to run away with your funds. The great thing
about the security model here is worst case scenario. If you know there's a slashing where you know some some percentage of your funds would be lost due to that slashing or even worst case scenario. You have to kind of think about worst case scenarios. The exo core network, which is a decentralized network running it with tenorment consensus, you know, dozens of nodes. I think it's compromise in any form. The worst thing that can happen is the funds are either your funds or like users funds are
either burnt or they're sent back to the user. So unless they're like the Joker with like the meme of like just to send a message with the money burning in the background, it's not a offitable attack vector, uh for for for hackers because they can only either burn the money or send it back to the user. They
can't actually send it back to themselves. And the reason for that is there's actually preconditions that are set into the wall where they can only the funds can only go either to a black hole address which is predefined, or back to the user.
Okay, that makes sense, And you mentioned like the wallet announcement is going to come soon, so when you think ETA folks may be able to you know, get get this started.
Soon, TM, we definitely we want to take advantage, you know, of a lot of the market activity. There's clearly a lot of x rps in spotlight. We're working very hard to get you know, as much done as possible, and we're excited. I'm more excited, you know about supporting x r pages because it's obviously such a great community of
the XRP army. And i'd say that I've even noticed in this new cycle that there's a lot of praise being given from people that don't usually give praise to to the XRP community, but you know, it's it's a strong, large, dedicated community is finally getting rewarded for its patients, and so we hope to you know, add up to you know, or or add additional amount of rewards to that to that patience.
Yeah, so, I mean XRP has been ripping. It's pretty amazing. You know, you've surprised to see what's happening. Uh, And to your point, there's a lot of praise about a lot of people are kind of in shock, like wait, what XRPS ripping like crazy? It's over two dollars now, it's a two dollars and eighty cents. What are your thoughts that when you saw the price action, I.
Wasn't surprised given all of the the series of activity, mostly regatory and political. You know, I'd like to say that you know, Ripple or XRP shipped some new feature and like this whole thing's like being driven by the promise and technology of the XORP ledger, which I think is great, But this is purely like driven by the removal of the regatory overhang that Ripple has been subjected to.
I was in the office when we got the message, you know, about the sec AC reglatory action in twenty two December twenty twenty, so I feel that I felt the you know, that impact very viscerally. And so it's been a long time. I think, you know, XRP missed to a large part, missed the last market cycle. And this is directly related to the regulatory actions brought by the sec which Ripple was able to successfully defend in court.
So it's not like that Ripple got lucky and and this happened, but it actually defended itself in a hostile environment with the hostile political administration, and I think that's commendable. And I think that's why this time it's a little different. You get you see even the most ardent ex orpiece skeptics and Ripple skeptics are kind of tipping their hat because you know, Stu and Brad and Chris, they all went to bat and Stu's got an incredible legal team.
They he doesn't probably praise them enough, but I know a lot of them personally, and it's just like a crack team and and they did a lot of work and spent a lot of resources to defend themselves, and I think that now is the fruit of the labor that's happening. So yeah, I'm very excited, and I hope everyone else is.
Yeah, it's exciting times. And we're seeing a lot of institutions are filing for XRP spot ETFs. I was surprised by that great scale relaunched your XRP trust and seeing a lot of the trading volume come from institutions as well. I think the folks at Falcon X just tweeted out about that, and then it sounds like r l U, s D to stable coins are right around the corner. So it's exciting times.
Yeah. I think what was actually more surprising is that x orp held on as you know, a top ten it got for a while there, it started looking like it may drop out of the top ten. I don't think it ever did. But I think that's more surprising to the market and even to the skeptics that rep that Xcorp was able to hold on for so long given all the scrutiny. I don't think I don't think most assets would be able to do that, and this
is a testament to this, you know, XORP community. Without that strong community, global community, I don't think, you know, XRP would be where it is today.
Yeah, that's a great point. I often remind people of that this ascid got delisted on so many exchanges in the United States and yet it stayed in the top ten.
So I tweeted this out earlier. I feel like XRP and Ripple are like the Trumps of crypto. They have been litigated, attacked, you know, basically like tried to be like effectively killed off right by some very powerful forces and fought like hell, stayed relevant, stayed in the game, continued to push push push, and won in court, and now the court of public Appeal is is is rewarding it. So I feel like there's a lot of parallels between between XRP and Donald Trump. Not to get political, but
I mean it's also polarizing. You know, it's a very polarizing There's there's a lot of haters out there. There's also a lot of true believers. It appeals to a mainstream audience. You know that. I could go on and on, but it's like, I think the parallel should be called out, and the fact that they're both winning right now is is interesting.
One do you have an XRP price prediction that you can.
No, I don't. I don't even I mean don't. I don't ever do these price predictions because every time I have a number in my head, I feel like, exam in bitcoins, it's twenty eleven, Like I had a number in my head, it hit that number faster than I even thought possible. So as wild as it sounds like, I am actually probably underestimating, but I don't want to
say that because and what that underestimation is. But yeah, I'm long term, very bullish on this space in general, and obviously like a big x ORP holder, so I'm a believer.
Do you think this rally continues into twenty twenty five? I know it's kind of the four year cycles playing out again, and you know you think this continues deep into twenty twenty five.
For the entire market? Yeah, I do. I do. I think that the four hels, the four year cycle is happening again, which is interesting. People say this time is different, you know, with like the question like where's the retail volume going to come from? I think this is that the cycle where we actually do see institutional adoption like in in the form that everyone thought and not even like thought possible. I mean we've already seen sovereign you know,
wealth with countries actually buying it. With El Salvador, I definitely see that that is going to become a trend. Al Savador was very prescient and buying also at the low end of the market, and so they're going to come out looking very good with with their with some of their treasury management. And I wouldn't be surprised, honestly if the US government started seriously buying at least bitcoin to as a as a a supplemental asset to its to its reserves. It just even if it's a small percentage,
it kind of makes sense. And uh and I think would be like very actually prudent by by the government to do that. And if that's the case, then like you're talking like the largest institution and one of the largest institutes on the planet. I think the largest institution on the planet by a sure number of people working for it, I think it's like three million. So yeah, this is it's gonna be insane. I think it could be like the cycle to make all cycles yeah.
I mean you have the convergence of so many different industries or factions of society tradify politics. It's pretty amazing to watch this happening. Obviously, retail has been here for a while, but yeah, this time. I know this is the cliche statement that is different, but it is different. I mean you got presidential candidates that were campaigning on crypto. We got the most pro crypto congress coming into office, obviously a pro crypto president, and then bigcoin Strategic Reserve.
I mean, this is unprecedented. We haven't seen anything like this before.
Yeah, and I think it's a testment too, Like I think the industry. I'd, by the way, tweet it this out in like March of twenty twenty three. I said, I think we're all gonna be surprised at the number of single issue crypto voters that come out in this election and basically saying like, don't touch my crypto. And in some ways I think that happened. You know, people are saying like, oh, the the mail vote was unprecedented
kind of coming up. I think a part of that was that those male voters also own crypto, and it's like it's become such a strong materially so many crypto holders that I think that and I don't know the numbers in this, but it maybe it. I think it's it's surpassed the number of like gun owners or roughly in that ballpark, which you know, the NRA is traditionally like a very powerful political organization, but the crypto industry in general, I would say is is more modern, more
digitally native, you know. I think arguably like more are technically astute and also can mobilize very quickly. So those factors make it basically a political train you do not want to get in front of. And I do I do think, you know, the Democratic Party parked itself right in front of waged kind of war with like the wrong group. The numbers make, you know, make up for LA.
I think there's over roughly around three hundred million that was raised by through political action committees or PACs and other kind of direct campaign donations, which dwarfed the you know, Wall Street, which dwarf pharma, which dwarf oil and gas. We're talking the largest industries on the planet, and Crypto
came out swinging strong. So I think, regardless of the politics, crypto has demonstrated its its staying power through political action, and has also realize like, hey, if you fund you know, these political action committees and you're very thoughtful and strategic about it, you can actually have really good outcomes that are favorable to the industry. It's it's funny because it took over, you know, twelve, thirteen, fourteen years for the
industry to figure this out. I think other industries have figured it out long before. But I think it's also just like crypto is naturally a very libertarian kind of like not anarchists, but like kind of libertarian, like we don't really want to like engage like with with government directly. But I think it got to the point where, like, you know, we needed regulatory clarity and the only way to do it is to directly get involved and get the hands dirty. Soh So that's what happened.
Yeah, I mean, and there was just this outright attack on the industry right like almost trying to kill it. And I mean, obviously Elizabeth Warren is the head of a Snake and she was campaigning on this I'm building the anti crypto army, and you know, I'm personally a a oh my gosh, I'm losing my trend of thought here an independent and watching this play out, you know, with Donald Trump and the Republicans, did the chest move like, oh, you're going to go against a neutral technology and make
it a political issue. You're going to use it against you and the rest is history.
Yeah. I'm also like kind of right in the middle, independent, So I feel like everyone was trying to sell us, you know, it's like the independent mail voters. I guess we're the ones that were targeting. So I was kind of seeing things from both sides. You know. I live in the Bay Area. Was obviously a California, which obviously a very blue state. But I had predicted to a lot of friends based on how things were going and just the sentiment in the state of California and the
Bear Bay Area and in the country at large. I felt like there's going to be a kind of a pendulum. The pendulum has shifted a little bit too much to the left right, and it was gonna start swinging back. And that's what you saw. Even the San Francisco Bay Area, you know, went more moderate with this. The mayor Jeff Lorie and being elected kind of as a as a as a kind of wild card and then also the Board of Supervisors who are more conservative and actually have
like founder credibility. So and then California kind of every everything kind of swung a little bit more to the right. And I think that's just a natural process of like the democratic system, which is super healthy, and I think that should be celebrated. Uh, you know, for the people saying, you know, far left, far right, if you're either on one of those camps, everything looks far so like because as guys like us were kind of independently minded and kind of in the middle, we see all like that.
It's pretty silly, I think. Frankly, I don't think my political ideas have changed much over the last like twenty years, but you know, maybe I'm crazy.
No, Yeah, And I think it goes back to well, I guess the extremism on both sides goes back to economic reasons because I think I remember who was saying this. I think Ral Pale, you know, you were saying politics is downstream of economics, and people are feeling left behind. They're feeling screwed in different ways. And in fact, a lot of the left and right the underlying root issue they're both frustrated with government they actually have something in common.
There might be issues here and there they disagree on, but the underlying problem that has them so polarized is
they feel, hey, two thousand and eight were screwed. What is happening inflation and they don't understand the underlying problem of the inflation money printing and debasement of currency, and crypto is an avenue out of that, with DeFi and the ability to be your own bank, so to speak, in many different ways, and reducing the cost of moving money and all that and opening up new monetization opportunities
for people. So it's interesting what's happening, and maybe that's why a lot of people are gravitating to crypto as well.
Yeah, I think so. Kind of going back like there was there was one poll political pulling I think is like kind of garbage. I think this election has kind of finally proved that out. Obviously poly market was interesting, but there's one poll called the It's a Gallop poll, and it has successfully predicted every single presidential election except for two or three since nineteen forty eight, so as an eighty five percent accuracy, which is insane for a bole,
and it's very simple. They asked one question or two questions. First question is what are the single two largest issues facing the country today, and they say it's like economic issues and social issues. This year, those two issues were the economy and immigration. And then the second question is which party is more or better suited to address these issues?
And the Republican Party since I think, you know, springtime or midsummer was up by five percent ironically, like that's roughly you know what the gap was, and so this Gallup poll was spot on, like again, you know, so the answer was kind of there. I think for like the especially like the Democrats to see like immigration and then the economy, but it helptimate I think the you know, the Trump campaign just did a better job of speaking
to those issues. And you know, I think that that's I don't know, that's what happened.
Yeah, for sure, it's fascinating. I'm really excited to see what happens in twenty twenty five. Trump gets into office, the most pro crypto Congress ever. We got some legislation up to go through the Senate, like the FIT twenty one and possibly stable coin legislation. You get the Big Coin Strategic Reserve Bill. So twenty twenty five it's going to be a really fascinating year. And then you know, I'm expecting ETF inflows to increase and then more ETFs
like XRP ETF and others to be approved. So it's gonna be.
Exciting, definitely. I think you said it earlier, like it's it's pretty amazing that we had a presidential race where crypto was a base issue, or at least for it wasn't I think an issue that the American public declared it was an issue. Excuse me, but I think it was a hidden issue that really kind of swung the vote. And now we get to see kind of what happens
as a result. Obviously, there's like basically eighteen months of where the Republican Party, having kind of controlled the Senate of the House and the Executive branch and the Supreme Court will kind of do a blitz. I think it's gonna be very interesting to see DOGE the new government entity that the temporary new government entity kind of do some work on, you know, effectively refactoring the US government. I think that's gonna be exciting to watch too. Yeah,
it's like I'm bullish, but it is amazing. Pinch me, kind of kind of feeling that we're in this position where like just compare it to last election and crypto wasn't even like anything. So we definitely had to scream at the top of the mountain to make sure it became an issue, which I think was successful.
I'm just thinking about I was laughing about Doge because Elon. Of course the acronym is Doge.
That's right, Yeah, it's it's it's pretty insane, Warren.
Great chatting with you man, and excited for you know, the wallet news to come out about which Walts will support the x RP staking and excited to try this out.
So thank you for joining me, and we'll.
Probably have to have you back on once things are up and running and you guys are you know, hitting the ground running here. But thank you for joining me.
Yeah, thanks a lot, Tony the task pat, don't the