The Future of Crypto Self Custody Will Change Everything! with Tomas Susanka

let's kick it off with your background. Tell us about where you're from and what's your professional background.

investigating you know, security and things related to that. I went to university in here, also did some you know semesters in Germany and all over the place, and basically at the university, I've found the field of cryptography and you know computer security, which was a really fascinating field

to me and it is still today. And that's basically how I, uh, you know, also found bitcoin, and I was really fascinated you know by or just by the fact that you were able to do that, you were able to create money with with just some code and some cryptography. That is still fascinating till today. Anyway, And after the university, I knew that I want to do something in this field. I knew I want to do

cryptography or something related to computer security. I've joined cloud player for for some time, you know, the CDM, a network provider back in whatever year it was twenty seventeen, i'd say, or twenty sixteen, something like that, and after that it was in London, and I knew I want to come back, so I was looking for something around here. And you know, basically Tresor was really the you know, love on first sight because it was a smaller company

at that time. It was you know, doing computer security. It was related to bitcoin, and basically eight years ago I started my journey here.

some in Europe. It really changed a lot, and it's kind of surrealed sometimes to look at the field, you know, eight years ago and now, because sometimes it's yeah, it's very different in many aspects, but at the same time, the mission I think stays the same. So yeah, it's interesting to look back.

how you know, it evolved. Yeah, So yeah, just confirming the fact that eight years in crypto is one hundred years in the normal world, is there.

an overview of the company and all the services you provide.

And basically Treasure is a device that stores your cryptocurrencies and the main difference is the self custody part, which means that in traditional volots or exchanges, the company is holding the private keys themselves, right, I mean they are holding the crypto for you while we are selling, selling, and manufacturing the device that you know, then you then use and you have the keys on the device itself. Right. So it's like that's the biggest fundamental shift that you

actually own the keys. You are the you know, you are the owner of the keys that then you know, control the coins, which doesn't apply for exchanges or whatever. Right, So this gives better security, but it's also you know, you are not you You're not required how to say, you're not under any limit restrictions or obligations or anything, right like, you own the keys and what you do

with it is are totally up to you. So that's that's ask this Treasure, that's the device and from you know, over the years, we've basically built a lot of services on top of that. So we have Treasure Suite, which is our main software product that you have on your computer, and of course you can buy cells, WEP, you can you know, do all those things that are quite common, or even a stake with some of the coins, and

we're trying to extend these services as well. But at the same time, the core product is the hardware world itself.

that you provide as well, because I think a lot of people this is very new to them and having someone representative from the company speak to them and be able to hold their hand through the process is really great.

expert into like a consultation session. So for example, if you are already experienced user, but you have something more complex that you need to discuss, or you know you're dealing with some problem, you can also use that. So we're trying to be there for our customers as much as possible.

are you also working with institutions?

So you know, it's been on the table many times, like to go and you know have some B to B offering or some you know institution offering, but it's not of our mission basically, I mean never say never, right, So maybe at some point eventually, but I don't see it because we've always been focused on the individuals and I think it's going to stay that way.

user friendly. I would say that's probably the biggest uh you know, changes that that differentiate us to larger because for example, Ledger has a smaller way smaller, smaller screens on the old devices. On the new one they have the e ink, which well, you know, everybody has a different taste, so I don't really want to judge it, but we are trying to push the usability there as well, right, So I would say it's piece to probably.

we know there's a lot of bad actors out there. They're in every market, right, They're always trying to steal people's cash, their funds, their crypto. So a question a lot of folks are going to have is how how is treasure staying ahead of the curve to you know, mitigate against these hackers who are trying different things, maybe using AI and much more m.

Safe series. So Save three, say five, you know, they have a dedicated secure element that is protecting the core of the recovery seat, you know, the core of the

backup that the treasure gives you. We're also working on a on a like an auditable and transparent secure element ourselves, or it's our sister company, Tropic Square that you know, is working for a few years already on something that would be more transparent, because we are not we're not happy enough with the current state of things, and we wanted to push the boundaries even further. Like, to be honest, hardware is hard, and you know, chip manufacturing or chip

design is even harder. It's it's really very difficult. So it's been some journey that we've been on for quite some time. And but yeah, I hope soon, soon, soon, it will happen. So we're also trying to push the transparency aspect a little bit more, and we're also using different chip in the in the SA five which you know has some security guarantees, and there's many more you know,

protections that we can get into. Also. What is what kind of breaks my heart art sometimes is that we're doing all those you know, sophisticated protections and all that, but then at the end of the at the end of the day, I think the biggest threat, unfortunately is the fishing. That that's something that we see very often that you know, unfortunately, the users not just of treasures,

like users in general. They you know, have the recovery seat, they have the set of words that you know, serve as the backup, and they unfortunately enter it into websites, into a phishing website that they obviously shouldn't have, and

then you know, their crypto is gone. So sometimes I feel we are focused quite heavily, you know, on the physical protections and all on all that, but yeah, we're also you know, trying we also need to look into into how to put it into the user side of things as well, right to really see how we can help the users not to fall for these because it's going to be here forever, right, So we're trying to do like the hardcore stuff, but at the same time also looking at you know, the soft stuff.

and it had nothing to do with crypto finances. It's a common problem that exists, and I think it's just more education, you know, what to look out for when it comes to emails and things like that.

a thread. I think sometimes people have, you know, like the feelings to say, well, you know, the users just just shouldn't have done it right, like are they stupid or what? But I always feel this, like, you know, no one is like, no one was born with any knowledge right away. Right, It's something you gain along the way, and it's our mission to do it as simple as possible. So yeah, it's something Yeah, we're trying to look into as well.

these things. And I think if we collectively do it, maybe there's some sort of group that's formed with all these crypto companies, they have representatives that are just out there educating people on social media much more.

the merchandise, the hardware walls that are shipped globally. How do you protect your inventory to let's say someone getting some of that inventory along the supply chain, right doing stuff to those hardware walls and packaging back and sending it to stores. How do you protect against that?

they we would basically know. So when you launch Treasure Suite, you like a special that there is a special section during onboarding which will say, hey, now verifying your treasure, and it gets verified and then you can see, you know that it's been intact. So this is in place, and yeah, it works well. And it's something that we that we're trying to look for as well, because obviously, yeah, it's one of the one of those threats.

vision is for self custody moving forward, what hardware welds, how they may evolve, Like, for example, would we eventually not necessarily have the seed phrase. But it's more biometrics my fingerprint, my redness skin and maybe certain questions that I can answer that I only I know the answer to, you know, things like that.

look into there. And also while fingerprints or the face idea or whatever it's great, there's also this problem that you there is not this plausible deniability because for example, if you have PIN, you can you can kind of present or you can claim that you forgot it, right because you like, no one can really well, they can beat you and get it probably, but if you know what I mean, right, it's not something like to change fingerprint is basically not possible unless you know you're really crazy.

self custody. It's also when I kind of zoom out, it's also interesting how the market is evolving and like eight years ago or whenever I really believe that, you know, self custody is like or my goal or my dream was that self custody will be for everyone. Like now with all the ETFs, you know, and all the all this insitualization, I kind of I don't. I don't really believe it anymore. And I think that's fine. I don't really I don't think self custody needs to be for everyone.

It's okay if it's you know, for ten percent or fifty percent or whatever the persent it is. What I'm kind of really would like to accomplish is that the people know about the risks, right because if they buy ETF, they usually you know, it's bitcoin, and they don't really know that they don't own it, and they don't if they not just that they don't own it per se, they also don't own bitcoin. They own the ETF right that you know, tells them that they own the coin.

So this is something that I would like to you know, push further. That if there is someone who makes an educated decision that they don't want to have self custody and that they want to have you know, ETFs in their bank, I'm kind of fine with that. I just really want them to understand you know, what are you know,

the risks of it. So I still think to some extent, self custody is not going to be super mainstream, but it's still our mission to be at least a little bit mainstream, you know, to be really like an option in the mainstream that you can do if you decide to do so.

There are people who are older who understand technology. But let's say the younger folks who are more used to the digital world, they may want to self custody and they can participate in DeFi and control their funds and move it whenever they want and you know, have that freedom, right.

or oil or whatever. I mean, I don't really want to have gold bricks in my garage, right, I mean, it's something that I'm it's not my main mission or whatever, right, So to me, it's fine if if you know, if the people know, you know, the risks, but like when when they actually have enough of a portion of their wealth in bitcoin, then I really think they should consider self custody because you know, then it's not like one percent of whatever, but it's something more and they should

really educate themselves. So yeah, I simply agree with you. Mm hmm.

won't need to necessarily back up physical copies of the seed phrase recovery. But you know, maybe with z K zero knowledge or maybe with an AI agent attached to your wallet, those things are you won't have to think about it. It's it's covered in that way. Yeah.

do KYC on that. And when I'm trying to say that, we always feel that if we you know, we cannot really solve one part and then you know, replace it with just another problem, right, which I think the KYC part is. So it's something that we are looking into,

it's something that we would like to innovate. Like I do agree that it's something you know to tackle, but at the same time, I do feel we are not there yet, but I would like to introduce something in that regard pretty soon because I do acknowledge it's an Yeah, it's an issue.

it's trying to push it further. We just want to push it a different direction, basically, m M.

with your expertise. And this is a problem that exists across all industries, and that is data breaches, right, people's name, email, telephone number, data, birth and so forth getting leaked. We've seen it from some of the largest companies. Do you think that at some point we're going to be able to put our data on the blockchain, whether you're a small company or a large company or enterprise, and that will help prevent those data breaches.

more more subjects. But the problem here is then, of course, you know, the companies than or the institutions need to adopt it, right, And I think that's also the biggest heard a lot that there is that all those data leagues, right, they were from like big government agencies or whatever, or from big companies, right, and I don't really see them, you know, having the ambition to push this, So I'm

kind of worried that's the that's the problem. And at the same time, you know, the space on the blockchain is limited, so that's another thing that yeah, it doesn't really it was never meant to be that. So yeah, I'm kind of pessimistic on that.

treasure into into websites. But I think the problem here is that like the demand is just not big enough there, Like people are not really willing to pay for devices to just secure their passwords or whatever because it's it's not that important to them, right, And I think until this changes, until you know, the demand is really large enough, I'm afraid this is going to be a problem. Also, further on. So yeah, I kind of this is also what is bordering me sometimes I would like people to

be aware more about that this is a thread. But yeah, I think we're Yeah, it will take some time on maybe some big you know issues or whatever until people realize this.

be the best hardware world out there. Of Course I'm a little bit biased to say that, so we'll see once people hold it in their hands, but yeah, it's something we've been working for for quite some time and I'm really excited about that. So that's definitely the biggest one. And honestly, I think that after that, it should be the backup thing that we've discussed just recently. I think that should be the next one that we look into.

But of course we never we don't want to stop to in avate on any side, right, so we will also you know, we'll be working most likely on another Treasure or also want to make our offerings in sweet like like bigger and you know, to to because as mentioned, we also have the trading section, so we're always trying to improve that and we're working on the usability a lot, So that's something we're trying to, yeah, accomplish all that and somehow put it together.

noticed that Treasure less support for black Rocks Biddle Tokenized Money Market fund. So Treasure has the ability to support these tokenized assets in the various stable coins. Right as we see the tokenization market is going to expand significantly.

max side of things. I think it's changed a little bit like later on because we many of us do acknowledge you know, value in other other fields as well, and the toganization is really interesting because like I know, robin Hood also just you know, recently launched their their toganization attempt, and like I'm always asking myself, Okay, what is the point of having a Tesla stalk on treasor as a self custody if I'm still dependent on you know,

robin Hood or whatever claiming that you know, they hold they hold the stocks themselves, right, Like, still I still need to believe them that they actually are doing what they're saying they're doing, right, So it's not one hundred percent complete self custody. On the other hand, I do acknowledge that, like we live in the privileged world where we you know, I can just take my phone and I can buy teslastalks in a in a few in a few seconds. Right, it can be Robinhood, but it

can be many other apps that are out there. And obviously this is not the privilege that have people in you know, for countries or Africa or I don't know where, right, Like, it's not that easy to them, And I think that can be interesting for them because for them it can be very interesting option to get to those stocks and you know, to get to be part of the of this Wall Street or how to put it, because those were always in the history, and I really do see

the shift in history. Those whether it's ETFs or stocks or whatever like these have been always available only you know to the you know, to the people in the in suits and and you know, only only the people that were really able to have a banker on the wall street or whatever. And now it's you know, changed, and it's also like normal folks with just a mobile phone.

And I think if the tok Is organization would be able you know, to even expand that more to really the third part for countries, it could really you know, do a lot of good to those parts. So yeah, I mean mixed feelings. I see the risks because you know, you're still dependent on those companies you know, actually doing what they're saying they're doing, which I always have a problem with that. But at the same time, yeah, if done right, it can you know, allow some people to join the ecosystem.

legislation will help put the guard reism place and that these companies have to give their access stations that they do in fact hold the respective assets, right, So I know, right now here in the United States, stable coin legislation just passed last week assigning to law, but the Market Structure Bill, which would address security not security tokenization. DeFi that's going to be passed hopefully, you know, late September, early October. Yeah.

trust the government? And you know all that, and we we had like an interesting discussion with respect to stable coins, right, and I like, again, it has its pros and cons, Like obviously, you know, stable coins are still subject to inflation, and you know it's it's US dollars, of course, you know, it has those properties of a US dollars, so it's not a bitcoin obviously, which doesn't have these these these

negative consequences. But on the other hand, again like after a US dollar is the biggest currency of the world, and it can you know, with with having stable coins on the internet, it can give it can reach people that normally wouldn't be able to receive a normal dollars, Right, So I do see some good in that. I guess I'm glad that it's regulated in some way because of course, you know, it could cheat a lot of people It

really depends how the regulation is done. I think you I haven't read, of course, the laws itself, but I see some more sense in that. Like in here in the European Union, you know, we have regulation mainly dictating what you need to do when you're in exchange, and it's very bureaucratic and it's very heavy. So on one side, I'm glad that there is some regulation because you know, there's a lot of scams obviously, and a lot of

wrongdoings were done in the crypto market. But at the same time, I see that it's so heavy that it kind of it makes me sad because it kills some one man companies, right because they're basically in a table, you know, to fulfill this demand. So I again feel like the truth is somewhere in the middle and it needs to be balanced.

more steady growth. And I also do feel that we can see we could see some innovation in that regard. I also still think that, you know, bitcoin is the main player out there. I still do think that that's what makes sense the most for the majority of people as a savings as a savings account. Where are we

going to see something interesting? I honestly don't know. I would really I'm really interested whether you know, some big player is going to make it with the organization, because I do think, as we've discussed, it could bring some good as well. But at the same time, it's a really big it's a really big thing to tackle and it's been here on the table for a few years already, and I'm kind of wondering whether, yeah, it's going to happen or not, so we'll see.

is adopted in our daily lives. You know, maybe we're using more stable coins, or stable coins are powering the rails for the existing payment providers banks, payment services like Western Union and things like that PayPal, and then more people are holding bitcoin and other crypto assets in their retirement and their savings and things like that.

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