Teaching the World about XRP, Crypto, & Web3! with Dom & Phil Kwok

new DeFi crash? Whereas now it's like, how do we create summer again.

its secure, affordable, scalable, fast, and sustainable. Some of the companies and brands working with v chain include Jivon, Chi, Walmart, China, BMW, Boston Consulting Group, and many more. Most recently, they partnered with Dana White in the UFC, and Dana White even said recently that he purchased over a million dollars of the vet token, and v chain also recently launched staking where you can stake the vet token and earn great rewards. So if you'd like to learn more about v chain,

go to vchain dot org. Link will be in the description. Hey, everybody, welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host Tony Edward and we are recording at Station three in New York's Financial District, and my guests are Dom and Phil Quock, who are the co founders of easya. Dom, Phil, great to see you both.

helping them get started and things like that.

raised a pretty really really neat pre seed round as well. Recently, so they've just launched gone on mein net. Absolutely crushing it.

other areas of crypto as well. And of course, you know, the whole Trump organization is really involved in the space too, and that's just put a massive spotlight on the space. So yeah, definitely becoming a proper you know, career path for many young people. And obviously, you know, Phil and I do our best to also be role model in the space and show people what's possible. In a very short amount of time.

can create a new DeFi crash? Whereas now it's like, how do we create summer again?

and their path in this industry, and you mentioned the Harvard hackathon. It just reminds me of Web two, where you know, you had Mark Zuckerberg and the folks coming out with Facebook and many others tell us about this hackathon, and I saw algorithm is going to be participating as well.

working on. So we have typically you know, two days of building and then a demo day right at the end, and that typically takes place at the end of day two and essentially people will pitch their projects, get the chance to win funding and then also prize money, and that's just a great opportunity for people to sort of get their start in the space. And so many projects that have come through Easya, come through those hackathons presented at demo days, have gone on to build amazing things.

You know, We've had unicorns come out of Easier hackthons, AI companies that are completely revolutionizing the field, like Cognition AI and another team that film mentioned earlier, AXL, which are you know, working out of this space as well, so building really cool yield products now for different cryptos

so yeah, really long lasting impact. Actually if these events that we host and obviously through the work that we do at easier and the goals really to you know, make sure those projects actually build long lasting value for the underlying blockchains we work with, you know, like algorithm, like the xopy ledger, like Stellar and all of the other amazing blockchains.

you know, worth a million. Ye may be like adjusted for inflation, they'll be like, you know, two thousand, five hundred or three thousand dollars or so, but yeah, it's a lot of money.

And all the top blockchains like Ripple, like Stella, they want to tap into this and that's how they can get the next big big appations building on them.

first getting started. I remember when I first got into crypto in twenty thirteen, and it was literally me and my parents' basement, plugging in my computers and like being on different online forums and YouTube and a lot of people were actually even getting banned from YouTube for talking about crypto. Is like just completely different times.

now we have trad five, We have banks, stock exchanges, the biggest companies in the world getting involved with crypto in one way or the other, whether they're launching et apps, tokenizing their own stable coin. What is that? You know? What is I mean for you guys?

So even if you look at the original Bitcoin white paper, it was written and Bitcoin was developed against the backdrop of the financial crisis, right, the Great Financial Crisis, all these big banks too big to fail to the little guy who bolts them up, and Bitcoin was created as a reaction to that. And then you have projects like the XLP ledger which come out as a better alternative bitcoin even but that's what all this experimentation is about.

they're the Bitcoin purists. Then you've also got partners that we have like Ripple, who from the very beginning, guys like Chris Larson like actually the way that we get adoption, like there's never really been a technical change which hasn't really built on what's happened before and actually sort of built its own future by welcoming them in, right, you know, that's like how you need to come into this future. And so I think that's the approach that Ripple took.

But yeah, it's been fascinating to see how it is really really different now to how it was.

philosophy has definitely changed. I think the reason that a lot of people coming, I mean, that's also not ignore the fact that most people come into crypto because they want to speculate, and so in some ways it's like, let's get the banks in because that means there's more money in the space, and that's a valid argument too. So yeah, I think jury is still out on which

one's right. I think there's some areas where there's been a lot that's happened in crypto, where like just I think there's some areas where the value that it adds is probably I'm probably skeptical about you know, even mean cooins I think add value in some respect because at least they generate more attention. Sure, you know, you have like the Trump coin and sort of like a legitimizing factor because like wow, if the Trump if Trump and the President actually had its own coin, then it's like

a lot of eyeballs on it. So even that I do see merit in even though like I'm not necessarily the biggest investment in mean coins, I just think that it's interesting, it brings more eyeballs. So like I'm I'm not skeptical on that much. But I think there's some bits which are like, you know, there's just a lot of hot airs that's been encrypto.

with the Task Force. Actually, we had a meeting with them earlier today, and they were really telling us, you know, about how keen they are to hear from people who are actually building on the ground about you know, how they can actually make legislation that is favorable and also you know, really welcoming for these new companies who are launching.

And obviously we deal with so many of those companies all the way from early stage startups to our you know, big partners like Rapol and Stella and all of those, and we have a very good oversight of what's going on both on that side. But then also with our backgrounds. You know, Phil used to work in Lord Sullivan and Cromwell.

I used to work at Blackstone, biggest you know p fund in the world, and I think, you know, back in those days when I worked there in New York, they were very anti crypto, but now you know, they've started actually, you know, looking at the space in more detail. My colleagues, who you know previously never really understood anything about crypto, they want to learn more about it. They're asking me all the time every time they see a podcast or something. You know, they're like, you know, how

do we learn more? How do we get involved? And so I think we're going to see a big shift towards you know, institutional adoption. Obviously that we're already starting to see, you know, pockets off you know, ETFs and tokenization of funds, et cetera.

making money, because that's a big incentive for everybody, whether you're institution or retail. I came in because I wanted to make money off of bitcoin, but then I stayed for the technology. I was like, Okay, I see this as the next layer on top of the Internet, and it's going to change the way we transact and do business. You think a lot of them are starting to recognize

that this is not just speculation. Every market, every asset has a speculation layer, real estate, precious metals, whatever, the stock market. But wait, we need to build on this because this is going to disrupt our business.

you know, we kind of need to embrace bitcoin. We need to make sure that we can provide services to our clients and both on the institutional but also private client side, that we can actually you know, show them these are the different spite of products we have, and we need to obviously cater to their desires to make money in the space and to actually invest and do things in crypto. So I think, yeah, the you know, it's been a seismic shift obviously in the space, and

it's only going to continue. You know, once a big bank like JP Morgan starts making it clear that they want to actually embrace the space, everyone else obviously will

have to follow. And we have many friends who you know obviously work on wall streets, and you know a lot of these banks are now setting up crypto trading desks dedicated to crypto you know, crypto research as well, and really you know, just like devoting a ton of resources to the space because they know this is how the world's going to be operating in the future.

the XRP Army wants me to ask you guys a ton of questions.

we should do something together, and we got chatting. We came over to the office and we got talking more and more and more, and then we hosted hacked On together, huge, huge success. And that's how we actually started working really really closely together with a Ripple team.

asked David. I was like, David, why do you think that there haven't been that many developers building on the XHART p leasure right, And he was like, well, you know what, developers always want to feel like they can, like they are able to build anything that they want. And the way that the XLP lasuer was designed was for a very very specific use case for payments, and it doesn't allow you necessarily to build anything that you

could possibly want. It's very different because it doesn't have smart contracts natively baked it right, And so David was like, yeah, you know what, develop because they want to be able to just tinker an experiment, and people like are very

experimental with those sorts of things. And so that was like, oh, actually, well, you know, the product market fit for blockchain really is in payments anyway, and basically taking what finance has traditionally done for hundreds and hundreds of years and bringing it on to the Ledger. And so that was the start

of our initial you know, conversations together. I went up on stage with David Schwartz twice basically in the following year, sure, and we basically just started working together off the back of that, and so yeah, flash forwards today we actually have mentioned easier labs just earlier. We are going to start to build actually directly or well, maybe I've said too much already, but there's stuff that's coming.

And like it's people say it a lot. It's almost trite, right, It's like we're so early, but we really are, Like we speak. Our younger brothers were just saying, he just started in trading right here in New York.

type if you were to make it, I.

the same thing that we're seeing in crypto and blockchain. Now, people don't realize, you know, the potential of the blockchain. Most people don't realize what the use cases are. And number two, people don't really realize you know, the yeah, the sort of you know, they don't have a trust Basically, they don't realize, like the beauty of the blockchain is

everything is transparent, you can see exactly what's happening. People mostly see, you know, these are just like tokens that are being launched by people, and oftentimes, if you're not in the space, allociate crypto with scams, and I think that's something that people are going to have to learn, especially if they're not already in the space. You know, we see so many people on Twitter and all over the place in person who are you know, really brought

into the idea. But a lot of people still don't really grasp it if they're not you know, spending every day on Twitter, you know, consuming the stuff and actually living and breathing it. So yeah, I think, you know, we're still very very early, and once those two things are cracked, you know, obviously we're working big time. One point one, which is educating people about it. Yes, showing them the use case is why they want to build.

And then number two, you know, once they sort of you know, educated, then they start to realize, Okay, this is the real piece of technology. It's not just a bunch of different coins and scams. And then you know, that's really sort of when mass adoption will happen. And that's why we found it easier, really, and that's why we see easy as being such a core bit of you know, crypto infrastructure essentially.

in my end, I have a podcast and I still have to explain to people like family members and friends, hey, how can I make money? I'm like, wait, slow down. First I want you to read the bigcoin white paper and then read the theorem white paper. Like you don't have to understand everything, but understanding this is a technology first, and here are the benefits. And yes, you can speculate that that's one component. But it's like the Internet that

you use right now. You didn't necessarily have to go invest in Google stock or you don't have to invest in it. You can use it, you can build with it, you can become an entrepreneur exactly, and that education part is so much needed.

also just that the blockchain really is inherently financial. There's like loads of application I think a lot of blockchains as well which have come and gone, which will try to do stuff which doesn't really target maybe the financial side. You know, there's a lot in gaming. I think gaming is interesting and sort of you know, other sorts of aspects. They're social fi, all these different like X five which

have come and gone. But ultimately what stayed and what's really got product market fit is defied because blockchain solves the double spend problem. And so to your point about why, you know, people coming into the space, we're often like, well, how do I you know, maybe the way to use cryptos like you know, I just put money in and then get like more money back out. It's because like ultimately, where the product market fit is on the blockchain is

these financial use cases. So I think sometimes people when they're coming just new to the space don't necessarily know the difference between the difference, you know, the difference between like using a crypto application sure, and like buying the coin right for example.

a token with value to kind of grease the system for it to work, right, And we've seen that a lot of companies are when the permission private route and it didn't work, and now they're flipping to the public blockchains. Yeah, but for the public blockchains to work, you got to have a token with value.

they are running a lot of this stuff. Obviously they're not yet connected up to public blockchains, but I do see it happening where actually, because they have all this stuff in house, Yeah, there's going to be some sort of connectivity which happens where they're going to realize, actually, we can tap into this huge, huge pool of capital outside or even expand our offerings to way beyond the people who we have in our current customer base by

connecting those up. So I think that we're at this phase right now where we started off totally permission less with its very public blockchains like Bitcoin, right soon after xop Leigure came along and then Ethereum, and then we were like, you know, maybe maybe there's more stuff to be done in permission blockchains, and that was again several years ago now, and then over the past couple of years were sort of we've reached this point where everybody realizes,

actually permissionless as much better and much more open blockchains are better, but there's definitely still that use case where not every bank wants all their stuff to be totally public, right right, And so I think we're at the stage where we've experimented with both models, or at least lots of different people have experience with these different models, and now it's about connecting the two together.

a really nice image to have in our minds. Sure, it's when this stuff is public, when it's permissionless and permissionless in the sense that you don't need to ask for JP Morgan's permission to use whatever yield bearing asset they have, Like you don't need to sign a contract with them, it's just they're on chain.

of the things you guys were mentioning about adoption and building and expanding the ledger. Do you feel though one of the roadblocks was the SEC lawsuit? Like, why would a develop our institution want to run the risk, right, because many of them are risk averse. Their legal team probably say, hey, hold off because we don't know what's happening here. But now Ripple has won, the case is done. It allows people to freely not having to look over their shoulders to go build.

It feels like it's been going, you know, on forever now, But now that it's finally over, a lot of companies can now start to actually partner together with Ripple in a much more formal capacity. They can actually start to use the underlying technology. The xopy ledger. Developers are much more interested actually in building on it too, So that'll obviously help, you know, spur activity on the ledger and ultimately lead to you know, landmark projects being built that

actually showcase the true power of the technology underlying. So I think definitely it's gonna be a big tailwind for report going forwards, and ultimately I think, you know, it's gonna, yeah be what actually you know, catalyzes the next stage of growth, and that's obviously one reason why we're really bullish as well.

interview at the Stock Exchange. You give an exerpre price prediction one thousand dollars by twenty thirty. To your point of you know, this lawsuit being over, x RPS performed really well this bullmarket cycle. It's been one of the leading all coins. Do you have a price prediction for this cycle that you can share. What are you guys thinking not.

the investment side. A lot of funds are looking now to actually deploy capital into different tokens, and one of the big drivers obviously off token price is not only retail excitement, which has obviously driven a lot of the excitement around XRP and around other tokens, but also on the institutional side, So making sure that funds can actually number one best in tokens other than bitcoin and ethereum.

And I think a lot of the legal teams inside those funds or not think, but no, a lot of those legal teams are now looking at ways that they can actually deploy capital into other tokens, and that's going to obviously create a huge inflow of new capital. So you know, getting the mandates updated internally, making sure that

legal then approves investments in these different products. Is going to all be huge positive catalysts because right now, you know, you turn on TV and you see on Bloomberg or CNBC, everyone's just talking about bitcoin and ethereum. Those are pretty much the only two tokens that anyone really talks about. Sometimes they'll talk about Solana, but I think what we're going to start to see is them actually talking about other tokens like XLP big time, because those are ones

that you know, you just can't ignore. And obviously, now the SEC lawsuit has been you know, removed essentially from all of their you know, screens, that's something they don't have to worry about, and they can actually now start to really talk about it, but then also put money behind those words. And I think that's going to be another massive tailwind for XRP and for other old coins

as well. I think as well, you know, we're going to start to see developers take notes of that, and obviously developer activity very closely follows token price as well, yes, and so when the token starts to move up in a big way, developers also start to come and follow that.

So token price is obviously really important thing that I think, you know, blockchains don't always want to necessarily admit they focus on but ultimately they have to focus on it because a token that's you know, at all time lows is never going to obviously reflect well on the technology. You know, people see that and they see a chot that's just basically crashed all the way down, like a lot of the new launches that a lot of new

layer ones and their tokens have seen. It's assually just like you know, a chart that just goes straight down and plateaus basically and tends towards zero. And that's obviously just not a good look for the blockchain. But also developers coming in they don't want to, you know, they don't want to see that. And I think, you know, obviously you mentioned XRP has performed so well this year.

It's one of the top performing coins this year, and that's obviously given rise to a lot of people building products around XOP, you know, whether it's staking for example, whether it's you know, all sorts of services. They're looking to actually capitalize on the momentum that's around the XOP and that really strong community, and that's obviously a result of the token and I think, you know only as that's only going to continue basically as the token continues to go upwards.

can see network effects in religion and politics and crowdsourcing different movements. But to your point of developers are going to flock to chains that have network ex activity value. And it's so funny how that is playing out in the digital world, and it's a new dynamic. Is it also relates to meme coins, which you were mentioning earlier. Not necessarily an investor, but there's the network effects that things can catch on because of human nature, like we

find something funny and we all crowd around it. So it's just fascinating this dynamic that's playing out.

in defis. That's why DeFi is so important as well, so there's a reduction in the amount of circulating supply. There are all sorts of things, and they bring new users in tons of different ways that adds value to the network. But I think coming to your point, really, when we look at an ecosystem, it really the value of an ecosystem is the people who are there in

terms of users and in terms of developers. And when you mentioned meme coins again, I think where I am today is I'm not like, I'm not really against mue coins. There was a time when I thought, actually, meme coins, they're just like annoying and a bit of a waste of everybody's time. While you're wasting our time with these silly things. When the blockchain is meant for something that's a lot bigger, it's like, why do we get into this space in the first place. But I've realized that actually,

over time they do attract new users. Literally, we were chatting with two new people who joined our team on the video side. They're not like you know, super you know, cryptonative, but we were chatting with them. I was like, you know what interactions we had to watching Satan as we grabbed lunch, and we were just chatting about them, and they're actually like, oh, I just like bought some meme coins because I wanted to play around, and like they're

not necessarily the most blockchain native people. Sure, but they bought some meme coins to have a bit of fun. And I think what a lot of people who are really good at meme coins in terms of like building applications that people want to use on that side. Sure, what they realized that other people don't is that these are very social experiences. Yeah, that actually the blockchain has

entertainment value even amongst those things. And so whereas a lot of people were looking at social fi before as being like how do we bring Facebook on chain, it's almost like maybe that's not the right analog. The right thing is like, actually meme coins trading are inherently social, people posting up screenshots of like their wallets and their wallet balances, and that's the way that these things grow.

And yes, it is sort of you know, blowing the line again between like the financial side of the blockchain, the speculative side, or those different pieces. But at the end of the day, it's more eyeballs, more attention, and more people who are actually getting exposed to the blockchain, which is I think on balance in that postive.

actually look at what's going on, and you'll spend time on Twitter, you know, you go down different rabbit holes and you'll learn a lot along the way. Whereas if you don't have much invested or don't have anything invested, it's very hard to actually, you know, keep an eye on what's happening. And yeah, it's it's a good way to force yourself to get brought into the space.

right news, right. Their incentive is to get us to watch for as long as possible so they can make as much money as possible selling ads, so to string us along and just to get us to you know, watch till the end or come and you know, turn on the TV again, whereas in reality the story might be very very simple, right. I think we see it all the time with things like you know, it's often amazing.

I mean social media as well as in some ways also contributes to this in terms of like, you know, people on YouTube might want to like string you along to the when they could have just like given you the answer, right, and so that all the dynamics are sort of a little bit messed up, right, because the way that people are at this attention economy works is about retaining eyeballs. Yes, whereas you go to something like a prediction market and you can see, oh, this is

what people really really think. And so we see a lot with for example, hoaxes. I think this week there was a big hoax about like how Donald Trump was dead or something like that. It's like, obviously, it's very interesting, like if that were the case, then you know, you want to click. They're like what actually happened? But in

reality it could just be complete nonsense. And it's like the news and the entertainment is all mingled together and that is what really benefits like people who make up that sort of news, whereas in reality, like the financial side of it can just bring everything to the fore and it's like, you know, almost like sunlight is the best disinfect and it's like, I don't know finance or money, just put your money where your mouth is, right, is

that sort of thing. And at the end of the day, those sorts of things really just like bring a lot of truth to light.

eventually blockchain and AI is used to verify content. So if you see a rumor, where's this from? And you can maybe click on a dialogue box and shows the history this came from this profile, This is not a credible source, most likely fake, YadA YadA. You know.

to learn and grow beyond these things. Definitely anyway, not to get off the crypto train here. So Genius Act pass,

huge for stable coins. Clarity Act coming up in the fall, potentially passing in the Senate. What do you think the Clarity Act would mean for the market? And you guys are as builders.

But one of the things that we were taught at law school and that we have seen true today is that when you have certainty in the law, when people can do business, when people can do things and they are not going to be called back on retroactive laws, be punished retroactively or for stuff that they didn't even know some sort of like calf guess sort of stuff. That's when things happen a lot more smoothly, and that literally has a very very clear impact on the amount

of economic value that can be created. So you look at a country like this compared to a country that is very much behind, let's say economically, often you can look at the legal system and you can see that things aren't clear, there are there's no effective enforcement of contracts, so people can't actually do business together. This was actually yeah.

We were at the xrpl Apex conference in Singapore and Ripple had invited a couple of speakers as well who are talking about the legal system in Brazil, and they said that apparently, if like legal judgments or like claims, even if you win take about like I think no, no, yes debts they take about ten years to be enforced or like twenty years, and that's insane, right, So you can imagine that it's very very hard to do business like that and to tie to tie things back to

genius act to clarity. When we have clarity over well, clarity, that's why it's name like that. If we have clarity over which digital assets are securities, why they might not be securities, that can just mean that everyone, you can do it a lot more together, right, It means that economic activity can absolutely explode and so very very bullsh

on just certainty. I think there's even regardless of you know, what final form these things might take, what amendments might take, I think they're just having clarity over those things.

it's fit for purpose. But I think the broad broad consensus in the Web three community is it's very difficult, and I think it's very easy to see how it can be interpreted to say that something as of securities and something's on and it's not like you can't just be a normal person and just realize that, you know, Okay, this is what I can do, this is what I

can't do. It's like you're going to get legal opinions from lawyers and even then like not totally sure, and but the value is that you just legal opinion.

five to ten years. Funds are raised, you know, to deploy capital over a while, and they don't want to, you know, deploy capital in something that they don't think is going to be around, and that could just you know, one day become illegal. Even though you can't you know, like we were saying, obviously get rid of the blockchain, you can make it a lot harder for people to

invest and therefore obviously the press price. I think as well in terms of young people getting into the space, it'll be a big green stamp you know from like you know, the SEC and from proper government bodies that this is a legitimate institution, legitimates you know, company, legisimate sector, and you know, you can actually build a career in the space, as opposed to before where it's like maybe I'll go in for a little bit, you know, maybe

launch token and then you know, disappear and you know, go do another project or something, or go get a real job. I think people start to realize, you know, crypto is something where you can actually make a long time career out of.

one of you want to answer, is but what does web three look like in twenty thirty five years from now?

already started to trust their banks less. I don't know a single person who likes their bank, and I think that if anybody could get away from the bank, they would. So we have evolved into this system where where banks previously were providing a service to us, most of us are actually hostages to our banks now, Like we just have our money in there. When we try to take it out, they're like, no, what are you using that for? If we try to send it to other people, they're like, who are using that?

right fractional reserve banking. I think if I'm looking at one area that I think is going to really really change and that I personally actually want to drive forwards, it's to help make this system a lot safer, right where actually you can again be in control of your own assets, right, And I think that comes down to

obviously the money in your bank acount. It is easiest to think about just getting control over your own money again, right, having that safe, safer way from banks like lending it out irresponsibly, because at the end of the day, they are profit driven institutions, and whenever you are extremely profit driven, you're going to be forced to take more and more risk. Right, you want to take your own risk with your own money.

If you want to lend it out, you should just be lending it out, and you should get like, you know, the full apuy on that. But you're making that decision, you're in control. I think that if you know, we're talking about property rights as well, I think having property rights very clearly being enforced as well on the blockchain, your rights to your money, your rights to your property, all these sorts of things. So I fundamentally just think

that within the next five years. It's not like super long. So I'm not going to say the stuff about maybe like you know, all sorts of democracy coming on chain. I think that's like up there. Ultimately, that's why web three was created to bring the principles of democracy. As Gavin Wood said, who you know coined the word into the Internet as we know it today. But I think, yeah, I think that probably it's really going to start off

with finance. I think banks are going to be given a run for their money in terms of when we have these competing products which are just as good as having your you know, you might have your money in chase, but you might equally just have it on chain. You know, it could be on the XRP lher and it's always there for you. You can have a look and it's like the balance that you see there is the real balance. You can always take it out any one time. I probably think that in five years that is going to

look very different. I think that we're going to have like challenge of banks which are totally on the blockchain.

et cetera. So I think that's going to be a huge one because there's so much real estate, you know, it's not billions worth, it's literally trillions worth, you know, all over the world, you know, from New York to all the major cities, and allowing people to actually on a retail level invest in those projects and you know, make money. So I think that's another huge aspect that people aren't really factoring in yet. It's the tokenization of yeah,

just you know, pretty much everything. But obviously real estate's a very natural one to be tokenized in the first place.

You could even have your own stable coin, for example, which is collateralized maybe by these different things, by the yields that you get on your real estate, all these different types of things all put together so that you can actually, for the first time, really be fully in control.

You have different stable coins, you have different types of yields, and I think as well, crucially, I think one of the key things here is a lot of people have realized that the money that they put into their savings account and the USR they hold is just continuously deflating. Well, it's going down and right appreciating. Yeah, So I think that this is one of the biggest biggest tailwinds for blockchain right now, is that people realize they want to

get out of the system. And I think we're going to see a lot of people actually coming to it because of.

to fighting with the existing small crowds. And so I think, you know, from our perspective, we work with a bunch of different blockchains, ones we're most personally bullish on as well, and ultimately, I think, you know, for us, we just want to grow the space as opposed to fighting over the you know, the small sort of population that's currently

in the space relative to what it can be. You know, it can be so much bigger, and I think that's really where people should be focused on, not just you know, trying to get people away from one token to the other, because you know, there's always ways that you can, like you know, spin arguments and you know, split up facts and look at different like token prices of a different horizons that make one look you know, better than the other.

And I think that's more of a futile thing as opposed to getting new capital into the space, new developers, new blood, new retail audience, even into the whole crypto space. And that's you know, ultimately how the tides are going to rise, and it'll lift up all the boats along the way.