Yeah, it can use across crypto assets. We think stable coins are probably the more obvious ones where it's going to start, just because that's closest to the FIAT that people may be used to today. But we absolutely think it's going to expand from there. And what I'll add is that, like we grew up in a world where the Internet was built for humans, but more and more AI out there, we have to reconfigure these systems so that they work for AI agents so they can do what we're asking of them.
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Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward, and my guests today are Nimil de Laul, who's the head of the coin based Developer Platform, and Dan Kim, who's head of business development the coinbased Developer Platform. Gentlemen, great to have you both on.
It's great to see you Tony, really, sait it beyond good to see you again.
Tony.
Yeah, Dan, you and I have spoken before, so great to have you on. And Guys, I am very excited to speak to you both. And that's not the cliche statement I'm sure you probably here on podcasts. I'm actually speaking to one of your other colleagues to figure out how I can use these AI agents and have them work for me and collect payment in USDCE or other crypto. So I'm really fascinated by this technology and I want to use it. But before we get to all the
details around that, let's start off with quick introductions. Nimil kick us off. Tell us about yourself and what you do at coinbase.
Yeah, my name is to Meil Eli our coinbased Developer platform team. Think about it if you're a developer, you need to be able to build a crypto app. We have all the tools to be able to let you do that from nodes, indexer, secure wallets, free USDC sends on base and much more. And my journey into crypto was I was in y combinator with Brian and Fred when they started the company. It was doing another startup
and they gave me my first bitcoin. I got started digging into this, got super excited about it, and eventually I joined Coinbase. At Coinbase, I led USDC. So this is a venture that they're believing, you know, in a stable coin thought this could be really huge thing for the world and industry. So work very closely with the biology stream of US and at the time it was our CTO to be able to help grow that. And now I'm leading our developer tools business.
Awesome and Dan.
Yeah, I've been with Claimbers for about three and a half years now and oversee business development and partnerships mostly with developers and builders doing cool stuff in crypto and
on blockchain. Started a journey here on a listing's team uh and got to meet a bunch of asset issuers who are doing cool things and as a result of just learning more about what they're doing and all the exciting things that they you know, have have in mind expanded to really do bead and partnerships in the space, working closely with the Meal, and uh, you know, we're really excited today in particular to talk about I think what's going to be the convergence at AI and crypto,
and it's something that we're just you know, seeing as being a big catalyst for keeping me and the Meal busy with a lot of the things that we're doing here.
Yeah, thank you, Dan, And I'm so fascinated, like I said before, about uh, this use case, the convergence and how these two technologies are going to work together. And there seems to be a symbiotic relationship where blockchain can be used to police AI in different ways de fakes and so forth, but AI can be used to enhance blockchain attributes. Tell us about I guess your thesis behind using AI agents and crypto and how did the idea come about?
Yeah, so first of all, let's say that these are two independent technologies that all have value of their own.
So AI you can.
See just the transformation that's done in terms of what can be done quickly, easily, at scale, across vast amounts of data. And with crypto, we basically what have what I cause like an internet of ownership that open, transparent leisure that anyone can look at and understand, where someone who owns what in that world. The powerful thing is. I think there are two angles where they come together. One angle is that they're builders out there in the world,
and AI makes building easier. And so let's say they're twenty five million software developers in the world, but a small fraction of that work in crypto, maybe thirty to fifty thousand developers. Today with AI, we're seeing people who've never codd before. We're seeing people who've coded a lot, but we're actually just run an engineers who want to write a full application deploy it, and they're able to
do it in a matter of minutes. And think about this, you know, compared to a world of five ten years ago, might you might need a computer science degree to be able to launch an application. You might need to at least go through a boot camp to learn all the details. That's a transformational thing. And so I think what we're seeing is that they're more and more builders that are able to interact on chain than ever before as a result of AI. So that's one angle that we've been
seeing in a really big way. The other angle is that AI itself cannot get a bank account, but AI agents need wallets to be able to do stuff the same way you know, us as humans need a credit card to be able to go buy something to build a few by if you're building blocks together, you know, at a hardware store and put those together, and the same way AI can interact in that world. And that's why the blockchain is so powerful for that use case.
So that AI can basically take some crypto, It can go ahead and either human to give it some information that it critically needs to answer a query that it's getting. It can go to a data API and pay for that because hey, it can't swipe a credit card, you can't sign up for an API, keep it can directly hit that data, pay for it in crypto on chain
and then use that. And so there's the two like really big things that we're seeing thematically excited to go through more examples of that, but those are the two ways that we really see it coming together.
Tony.
There, I'm dating myself here, but there was a many many years ago.
When I was.
At cal College. One of the courses I took was an HTML course. You can imagine how useless that is now with solutions like word price and scores spaces that are out there. I think this is exactly what's happening in crypto today because of AI. You know, both technologies and particularly crypto is becoming a lot more accessible and people can really leverage its full strength, but just how a vision and an idea of what they want to do.
And even last year this wasn't possible. So that's one of the reasons why we're so excited about this space is because it just opens up the space to anybody who wants to build and really enhance the things that they're building because of what CRYPTO could do.
M you know, as you guys are saying those things I'm thinking about, I could be sleeping and I can have an AI agent doing things on my behalf, whether it's selling or buying or helping somebody providing a service and collecting payment, and I can wake up and have a wallet with funds in it, or I could have a product delivered to me that the AI agent went out and paid for.
Yeah, Like, I think one of the most obvious use cases is that it's there. It's trading on crypto out on chain, so for example, it's hitting uniswat, it's hitting different forms of DEXes and exchanges that are out there in the world. It's making some money that's showing up in your wallet, and then when you wake up, the AI has done that throughout the hours, and unlike you know traditional financial markets, crypto it is twenty four to seven.
So that's a really good example where when you're sleeping you need someone to think about, let's say, you know other parts of the world, who's trading in those parts of the world, and what can AI do during that time.
Now, you guys recently successfully conducted an AI to AI agent crypto transaction.
Tuls about that.
Yeah, Dan, do you want to take that?
Yeah?
I mean, look, we've been experimenting with a lot of like what's possible here, and I think there's like two things that we've been leaning into. One is AI to AI and another is what we'll call it AD a human, which is also very interesting. The thing that we love about AI agents is their ability to scale in a very intelligent way and by conversing with other AI agents. Imagine all the cool things that you can do that would take humans.
A long time to do or may not do it in a very accurate way.
So we're really excited about that in the application of crypto. And one example that come to mind as to why
AIDS agent agent is interesting is imagine going cross chain. Right, So, unless you're you know, I guess if you're a crypto expert, it's probably easy, but imagine just being able to tell somebody or at the AI agent what you want, and based on that natural language instet of instructions, the agent kind of goespigure it out on its own and finds other agents, maybe you representing other chains to do cool stuff that completely abstracts away the complexities of, you know what,
what the human needs to know in order to convert for example, USDC on base from u SEC on Salona
for example. Right, So that's what we're really leaning into, and that whole AI to AI it's really more of a metaphor for all the cool things that can happen faster, more accurately, in a more compelling way just because of what AI AI agents can do, which is becomes smarter bots right, and then therefore abstract away a lot of the complexities that humans shouldn't really have to worry about and execute that just based trip on the vision of what the human wants to do.
And the transaction was done with USDC right. And can it go to other crypto assets as well?
Yeah, it can use across crypto assets. We think stable coins are probably the more obvious one where it's going to start, just because that's closest to the FIAT that people may be used to today, but we absolutely think it's going to expand from there. And what I'll add is that, like we grew up in a world with the Internet was built for humans, but with more and more AI out there, we have to reconfigure these systems so that they work for AI agents so they can
do what we're asking of them. And this is exactly why I think this AI to AI example is so interesting, is that, like in this one example, it was a generalized AI conversational interface that needed a very specific, specialized AI interface. So it's no different than one human, you know, who might be a journalist who wants a very specific skill set. They may want to reach out to a programmer who's super deep to know some details and they
want it. They need to be able to transact to be able to do that, and in this case the transaction was USDC. It was moved on base and one agent is able to talk to the other agent to be able to ask for that. And in this case, there's a WebCrawler that is an AI agent that can look like on the Internet, figure out exactly what the Internet is saying and put that into specific tokens that can be consumed by an AI and that's what the second AI agent needed.
ME agent today, for example, can't go to the New York Times.
And pay for an article right or get the latest weather forecast. Humans can do that because they're marketing things out there to kind of incentivize.
So I still twenty subscribe.
But imagine a world where an AI agent can actually go to a New York Times or a weather service right and be able to buy pieces of data or an article just strictly based on what it needs, and not to do anything other than pay the other AI agent in this case the New York Times a lot for example, for that transaction, right, instead of a human kind of going out there and entering your credit card in and that very complex, and that's what we're really
excited about is just the scaling possibilities from you know, what can happen is that they're fractionalized access to data in a very meaningful way.
Walk us through this setup of that. How does the AI agent connect to the respective wallet and when you expand to other currencies is the wallet is it going to be like a web three naming a wallet address where it behind the scenes, it can support Salon, it can support eth, it can support bitcoin.
You know, how does all that work?
Yeah, So what we do with coin based developer platform it would we offer something called an NPC want, which is an API based wallet. So think about like really simple calls. You can say create wallet. I can say mint n FT or mint or create erc twenty token or trade it and behind the scenes it goes to a decks and trades it. Those are all examples of what this API wallet or NPC walt can do. And so what an AI can do is directly because it can make API calls, it can directly hit this API
and do whatever that API allows it to do. Now, the magic part of this is that because it's on the blockchain, it can do all the things that the blockchain allows, which is a ton of stuff today, and so today, like where we're starting is we're starting with Ethereum, We're starting with base, but we're slowly expanding out the number of networks that we support, and we're slowly expanding that into EVM to get started first over time, absolutely
we want to support all the different blockchain networks that are out there, and then you're able to do the AI is able to interact with those networks in full, so whatever smart contracts are there, it can directly interact with that. And so the simplest example to start maybe literally, it just wants to launch an RC twenty token and tell the world about it. You know, it's hooked up to Twitter, similar the truth Terminal or other examples out there.
It wants to tell the world a little bit about this token, why it launched it, and anyone can then be able to access it. But you can imagine a world where it gets much more sophisticated than that. It's the one that you know, goes to UNISWAP or other texts and is able or aerodrome and is able to actually decide when to trade, how much to trade, maybe to market make to provide liquidity into those markets. So we're just scratching the surface of what is possible with
just launching ARC twenties. But I think there's a lot more coming Tony.
The fact that you asked that question is exactly the problem we're trying to solve here, right. You just can't have people worrying about what network you're on, what you know, what, what what token you have, what wallet you have, whether or not your wallet support it self. To imagine, if you know, we're the cell phones we have today, where I'd ask you are you using Verizon or using AT and t oh should I can't do that?
Well? You know so so so right now it doesn't really matter.
Right.
That is the vision that we have for crypto and especially for developers and users, and AI is just the way to get us there. It understands code, it's this natural language is software code, as is cryptos, and you just have to train it and train it is probably where the difficulty is. But and that's one of the reasons, you know, we we built CDP coomans developer platform to make a lot of that a lot easier.
To use with training models and AI agents so you.
Know, we want to take away all the We don't want you asking that question, right, We want to be like, oh yeah, I get it.
And that's one of the reasons.
Why we're we're investing so much in CDP is to make crypto not complex and to make crypt as easy as possible to use for anybody who has a vision.
Absolutely, and I know interoperability is like a big thing that many folks are working on, so that's going to be key for global adoption. I apologize if you address this, but I want to make sure I'm clear on my end. The AI agents that are being created, they're on chain right or they outside outside and they just connected a wallet.
The agents are off chain in that like they have to work in traditional infrastructure, but they access the wallet epis that allow it to transact anything on chain as well. With based agent, you can go to CDP, dot coin based dot com today and in three minutes spin up an AI agent using open AI swarm, and then you connect that to our NPC wallets and you can deploy that in zero to three minutes total, and then suddenly you have an AI agent that has a wallet that can do any transaction on chain.
With those wallets, and interoperability isn't just between chains, right, it's between on chain and off chain as well. That's one of the things that we're super excited about. You know, if you wanted to use based agent, the Agent kit that we recently announced, it can do anything as long as there's a Plython API available, right, So imagine the possibilities there. Whether it's a Web two or Web three tech stack, that agent can go in between.
Worlds and do cool things.
Now we're going to start talking about how AI can benefit from one chain. I think there's really good discussions around training data and having that being mutable and putting that on chain. But as far as like the agents themselves, we kind of want them to go in between and you know, in and out of being unchained, right.
In order to be really effective.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So when I, let's say I generate that AI agent, I got the wallet and so forth, do I need to have or am I given the twenty four seed phrase?
Is it?
Is it a self hosted wallet? How does that all work? Yeah?
So we have different options. The traditional one that people that are using is we have a two of two wallet where you have two shards, and both of those shards are needed to be able to sign, and in that example, the user or the AI agent is holding onto one, so it could be the user that's instantiating the AI agent is holding onto that one of those shards and then giving into the AI agent to be able to call, and then we're holding and supporting the
other side. And that way, like you can't just go hack one thing or attack one thing to be able to take the funds as part of that. But kinnily, like I would just say, we're just getting started, and that like in the last month is really when I think crypto and AI that connectivity is really taken off
truth terminal. There's so many really powerful experiments on Forecaster and on Twitter today that I wouldn't be surprised that there are new Walt and Key models and we're working on those ourselves, and there's some fun announcements coming at
deb Com from our side. But wouldn't be surprised is that, like slowly, the WAT models are going to change so that the AI agent is the only one that knows it's key and can then hold full and absolute custody of those funds and decide exactly what it wants to do, and I think we're just getting started because the tools are like this is a brand new use case that
never existed before. And that's maybe one plug I want to give to your to your viewers is that if you're building today, this is one of the most exciting times to build because these things have never been brought together in this way. And every day, like when I look on Twitter, I see like brand new experiments that people have never done before. Like literally just a month ago was the first time someone send funds to an AI agent and gave its own crypto wallet and did it.
And that was like thirty sixty days ago. What's going to happen the next ninety days. That's gonna happen in the next hundred and eighty days. So I would just say, if you're a builder today, this is one of the most exciting times to start experimenting, working with open ai, working with other AI agents that are out there, and hooking them up into coin based developer platform.
Yeah, and to be in full disclosure, like I've spoken to Lincoln on your team and we started going through his guide that he put together because I want to leverage this technology. I want to stay ahead of the curve. So it's fascinating, you know, I know, once again still early and you guys are still you know, figuring it out.
We're going to be further iterations and so forth. Aside from let's say developers, are you also looking at how creators like myself can leverage this technology and automate certain things or provide certain services maybe on social media like answering questions and people tipping me and things like that.
Absolutely, I think there's a lot of discussion over the past couple of years on how crypto and blockchain in particular could perhaps help equilibrate the creator economy or the imbalance there is where I think a lot of the way the world works today in the creator economy is based on views, and that you know, incentivices or at least creates the wrong incentives I think for kind of up and coming artists and creators to be immediately relevant.
We like crypto in a creator space because of the payments angle, But how do you scale that?
Right?
And one of the things that you do need to do is is scale very quickly in order to kind of compete with these traditional platforms that have massive viewers. That have really advanced algorithms to kind of direct a
traffic to the right places. Right, So really excited about the impact of AI and crypto in particular in the creator space because it's going to be able to do a lot more to enable scale for creators who want to reach much larger audiences identify and reach much larger audiences in an authentic and engaging way.
Right.
A lot of the automations and bots that you see there are exactly that.
They're very not smart.
You basically pay a bunch of money actually to these other platforms they find you followers for you or viewers for you in a very binary and old school kind of way. With AI agents because they're getting a lot more lot smarter or meaningful, more engaging, and they understand people's psyche to a point where you don't might not even know you're talking to an agent. Imagine imposing up or or putting in printing a personality of a creator or an influencer in the form of an AI agent
too ay out there and start to identify. Oh wait a minute, I see this discussion happening in this forum and never heard before. Let me let me get in there and start having these conversations and beyond that, making those engagements meaningful by everything crypto can do, whether it's monetizing, Hey let me give you some USCC for doing cool stuff for me, or hey, oh here's an NFT that
I just created for you. Right, So, if you believe in a world where crypto is going to start to advance you know, financial systems, and if you believe in a world where AA agents can start to scale meaningful, authentic engagements conversations combined two together and your starting, your head starts to explode a little bit, right in terms
of what's possible. And that's one of the reasons why I hide, one of the you know, the largest k pop rep companies in the world, recently announced a partnership of coin based to exactly that for what it sees as the future in creator economy right is to really leverage AI agents and crypto and blockchain to be able to create and reinvent the.
Creator economy in a much more meaningful way that.
Allows you know, up and coming creators and creators that don't have millions of viewers to be able to do very effective things using both AI and crypto as on.
Your tech stack.
Wow, that's amazing. I love that you guys have formed that partnership. And I know the create economy is growing, its media is becoming decentualized. You know, obviously money and movement of value and so forth to become more decentralized. So it's fascinating. It's a brave new world we're headed to.
We should do an.
AI version of you and multiple of these interviews at the same time in a meaningful way with these same reactions.
And I'm joking, but that's exactly the vision that companies like High have, right is, is how do we take what we know about the artists and creators that represent and start to let them engage with their audiences in a much more meaningful and prolific way whilst not having to stay up, you know, one hundred hours a week or twenty every single tweet out there and not being classified as just a bought right so and then making those real with crypto transactions and its teasers and see what
have you. That's what we're really excited about.
Hmm.
Something I was thinking about before, you know, we had this conversation and this.
New idea.
Uh, it seems like it could help bring back balance in a sense of there's people concerned about AI taking their jobs. And look, automation has happened throughout history, renew technology, right.
And yes it does create new jobs.
But AI this this technology doesn't sleep, It continues to learn, and so far some people are concerned some jobs are going to become obsolete. However, as an individual, if I can take my knowledge and skill set and create an AI agent that can help me earn, so do you see the potential of this bringing a bit of balance back to the scale here?
I think the answer is yes.
You know, I think for every menial or routine or you know, dangerous task that humans have to do, you know, being able to have an AI agent do that, I think will start to create new problems that humans are probably better stared to solve. So it's still early, and you know, I think there's a lot to still learn
and still experience. But you know what we're seeing here is for every job that gets displaced, I think there's going to be even more jobs that get created as a result of this reinvention and how things get done. There's also the element of AI is creating jobs just by being more efficient PAYMN, which is a company that we work with is an AI human platform that allows AI agents to pay humans for doing stuff work right, whatever,
whatever that may be. Say you have a park that needs cleaning after a concert and you're trying to organize a bunch of people to kind of go and get there. You can either have a human do that, or maybe there's an AI agent that excels at doing exactly that and goes out and basically says, hey, like, I'm an AI agent, and if you pay me ten thousand dollars, I'll go find a lot of people on my own
and pay them to go do this task right. So I think in worlds like you know, where where there's where there's still needs to be humans to gets have done, I think there absolutely will be agents will be much more efficient at creating or at least organizing and presenting jobs that are right people in a much more fluid and immediate way that I think it's going to be actually a really good catalyst.
And we've had discussions.
With job boards and you know, kind of these labor pools that are out there that you know, are very interested in AI bringing more jobs to these workers, whether they're gig workers or not. Because AI has a lot more intelligence and access to where these jobs are and has a lot more ability to kind of identify where we pay people for this job just because they have more information at their disposal, and as.
You're saying that, I'm thinking of it also opens up our broader reach because let's say I'm in New Jersey and my job is local, right, it's central to where I live. But if I have certain knowledge and skills gets skill sets, it opens me up nationwide even globally to people who have a need based on what I can offer.
We built a demo app at.
CDP, SDK, dot x y Z that shows what an AI agent can do for training an mL model.
Right.
So basically an agent can present hey, like, which of these is a dog? Right, and then you can basically find people on Twitter, have them present it, and then we're answering us series of questions just immediately payment.
For the work.
Right.
So to your point earlier, Yeah, I mean this is I think aagents are going to create a lot of opportunities or humans they're going to step in, or at least they're going to ask humans to get stuff done, and it's going to create a whole new demand for services that I don't think we've seen before at this scale and at this efficiency.
And I think a big part of this is that crypto is just making the world smaller. Yeah, so I think there's a world where, like it feels quaint now, but fifteen years ago, the financial market was only open from X time to why time, and it was set based on certain national jurisdictions. There's a version where like crypto is global, anyone can access to the blockchain is global, and they can interact with anyone in the world. I think that is absolutely making the world a smaller place
than what existed before. And again, the Internet was already doing that, and you add crypto into that element, you add AI in to that element, and that's making this even smaller. I said, this is someone from New Jersey, you know, who is like you get to interact with anyone in the world. That's just a pretty powerful thing today.
Absolutely, it's so fascinating and it opens up these secondary tertiary markets and so many opportunities to earn and crypto is a big part of it because you can at least trust right, you know, and there's no delays, is instant settlement, all these things so it's fascinating now speaking of earning it maybe early the answer this question, but my AI agent or my multiple AI agents earned five thousand dollars in the month of November. Tax implications, I'm sure the IRS has not come.
Out anything as yet. What are you guys thinking about that?
I think that we're very early in the stage for this, so can I can't speak to tax advice for this. I think I think it reminds me a lot of Crypto, where like there's no rules early on for like how tax obligations and defied pools and other things would work, and that's something that we have to go figure out
together as a society. Some of the existing rules actually already worked for it, you know, maybe you're holding that agent, maybe you're directing that agent, and so maybe the existing rules are And in other cases we're probably gonna have to create brand new roles to think about these different cases. And I think that like I always, like in the early years of crypto, when like DeFi was first starting, I always thought about, like, hey, like will we be
able to catch up quick enough to this? And I've actually been pretty excited about like how how many people in the world are starting to interact with this, to use this, and how even governments across the world are starting to catch up to it thinking about exactly how to thoughtfully put it into their systems.
M Yeah, it's fascinating. It's like exciting, what's scary at the same time. Now, in regards to the AI agents, right, let's say I create something really great and it's doing well. Can I sell that AI agent in a white label or something along those lines if that makes sense to the open market.
Yeah, So I think absolutely there's something to be said for your training the agent. You're getting it hooked up with a Twitter account with a following, maybe you're connecting it to an RC twenty token or some or NFT or anything else that's on chain, and you're able to then consider that like one unit and sell it. I think where it gets a little difficult is, first of all, we at coinbase and in the crypto industry, like we're focused on the crypto side of this equation, the on
chain side of this equation. So in the case that like you're just simply training agent, giving it some prompts and then educating it, that may be less defensible. But then when you turn it into a social personality. When you add on chain assets that it owns, suddenly that's an entire package that actually cannot be as easily replicated. So my sense is like there's even more defensibility in
terms of what the creator is creating. They have the ability to have all those tools together, and the AI agent only works because it's the AI personality that's tied to a Twitter handle, it's tied to an nft on chain or multiple NFTs on chain, and maybe it's a brand that's tied to it as well. So absolutely that can be sold and in a lot of ways, that is a busy business with his own set of assets.
I think that I'd be more skeptical about just the AI agent with just some learning prompt that maybe that's the thing at least that's as defensible.
Yeah, I mean it could be easily replicated, but I think the idea of an AI agent marketplace is definitely feasible, and we're seeing early signs of that. Provided that these agents either it took a very long time to create and it's really hard to replicate, or has the ability to do things or access data that nobody else has, right, I think we'll see it first.
In generative art.
I'm seeing a lot of models I think they call the checkpoint models or law models, where they've been trained to do something very very well.
Right.
I can generate food really really well. I can generate you know the inside of you know, Tajmohal road very well, right, whatever that may be, I think I think that's going to represent the amount of effort that wanted to creating the agent, and.
I think there's value that can be monetized.
But to Nemil's point, yeah, I mean if they're an easy or agents that just kind of do things that chat ept you can do without any other kind of special sauce to it, I don't think that's going to be as exciting, and that'll apply be more of like hey look at me, look at me, and apply be something to have the kind of bear or buyer whoever does the marketplace, right. But imagine one that's just trained
on a skill set that's like really really cool. I think you know there's an opportunity for to monetize that as well.
Let's talk security.
So you create the AI agent, you got the API into the NPC NPC wallet, what securities layers there aside from the seed phrases and so forth, because I don't know if hackers.
Are going to use AI to hack AI.
Right, this is like there's a whole new world, whole can of worms that is opening up here. What are you guys doing from a security standpoint?
Yeah, so I think you've chucked in the past to Philip Pardon are like head of security, and so we're based on the same finacial security promises, a coinbases like security infrastructure. And when I think the key thing I call out is is that we have two versions of our mpaz wots today. One version is where you have a single one on one key and that's very similar to the seed phrase that you mentioned. It's a seed phrase. If it's lost, anyone can access that wallet and they
can take the funds. But there's also the two of two model, which is not one single seed phrase. There are two parties that both have to be able to agree together at the same moment in time, and if they do that, then those funds can be transferred, you can do an on chain action, et cetera. So we two of two model is what we recommend, especially if they're real funds on your assets and it still means you do have to critically secure your part of the shard.
If you lose that, you lose the key that you use access coinbasapis. That absolutely means the funds can be at risk, But the idea is that it's not the same as having a single seed phrase that anyone can go attack and simply be able to move funds around.
So what I would say is that we're in the early months or weeks of these trend of AI really connecting deeply into crypto, that I think that the secure he's going to get better and better, and that's one thing that we're working on is to have more and more complex forms of security so that if you have large amounts of funds here, you can get higher and higher guarantees in terms of what the security options that you have available to you are.
You know, Tony and I recently had a conversation with a AI chat bot on exactly this topic. And one of the things that a lot of developers that we work with are scared of is, you know, these wallets just can't be traditional EOA wallets because AI can potentially outscore human beings.
That's what we call them.
NPC wallets, at least the ones that we're using. These wallets can't be a traditional EOA wallets that you know you've seen in the past, and they have to have a higher degree of sophistication. And if you in fact ask any kind of GPT bought or chat chat bot, it'll actually say, you know, it recommends multi party competition as a way to enhance security for AAI agents to
have wallets that they can control. So look really early here, but I think the signals are according to the fact that security in fact has to be a lot more advanced. I mean, that's one of the reasons why we're leaning in so much into NBC.
We're good at it.
We believe that it represents one of the high stoves of security, especially for AI agents, and it really does give developers who are serious about the space the confidence leaning heavily without worrying about a single point of failure when it comes to traditional walls that you typically.
Seem excuse my ignorance on this, these are new questions I'm asking you guys because I'm really curious about it. So, so, the wallet all good, but can the AI agent be attacked itself? And once again, may be too early, and I may be thinking too much Star Wars or I Robot or something, right, But I'm just curious that can someone use the AI to attack the agent itself and shut it down.
So we use open AI in terms of the base agent that I talked about, we use open high behind the scenes, and so that's directly what you're interacting with. I think now I'm starting to speculate, and I think there are examples where you can talk to the agent, like convince them of something and have them, you know, react in a different way than maybe the creator was intending to. And absolutely that is a possibility of how
you can do it. I'm not an expert in terms of like how the AI systems are built themselves, and so I can't speak to directly like you know, what types of things you can do beyond that, But it feels very obvious that you could tweet at them, like you've already seen this on Twitter, where there are examples of people saying, hey, like send funds to this address, right, and if the AI respects that, even though the creator may not have wanted them to, but they didn't program
it in that way, I could absolutely see that happening, And I would just say is that like this is like we're seeing an industry and its infancy, like literally in the first walks that are happening. And so my sense is we're gonna see some pretty big hacks in the early months and weeks, and then slowly people are gonna learn and they're gonna hard in these They're going to make them more powerful, and we're going to figure out what are the really big and killer use cases
of this at this stage. And then as the AI gets even better and better, and as the blockchain gets at lower costs, more performance, more people in the world have wallets, You're just going to see the amount of like types of use cases here just change and probably get more and more sophisticated.
Yeah. Absolutely, And I definitely agree with you there in the.
Baby face crawling not not walking yet right, we let alone running. Now, you guys mentioned the creator economy and developers as well. Are there any other industries you're noodling about, you know, in regards that you might start approaching them and saying, hey, check this out, this can help automate some things, open up revenue sources for you and so forth.
Yeah, Dan, do you want.
Yeah.
I mean, look, we're we're good at training our core business. So we're seeing a lot in terms of advanced streaming strategies, cross chaine straining strategy, trading strategies, liquidation warnings, you know, all the things that humans typically mess up or don't want to encounter.
I think we're seeing a lot.
You might call them DeFi but you know, I think it goes beyond defile when you start to build on channel ops chain. So I think trading is another really good example. Obviously the creator example that we mentioned earlier, which is great, but you know, I think we should understondate kind of the current places where a lot of
AI agents are going to use. Example, customer service, you know, something that we've been talking about for a while, but imagine customer service and crypto together, right where it's more than just being able to understand your problem, but maybe it's also going to be good at solving them because of its ability to interconnect very complex systems a very different complex data sets. And I started to reason right, which is which is a recent development in.
The AI world. Right, So you know, I'm not.
Going to sit here and try to speculate all the like amazing things that because it kind of gets scary at some point, and I think we're getting close to the skynet terminators kind of. But I think the fact that there are immediate use cases in trading in you know, creator economy, uh and you know, even even service and support. I mean those are probably one of the biggest drivers
of costs that companies incurred today. And that's another benefit I think AAI agents will bring to the table is being able to do a lot more.
For a lot less.
Yeah.
Absolutely, Yeah, And I know, once again some of these questions were so early, and but I'm just fascinated to throw it out there.
See what I can get from you guys.
Are their plans as things progress to open up to other AI companies, So let's say Google's grock on Twitter, whatever it may be.
Yeah, So there's a ton of different things that we're doing. So maybe I'll take you through a few of those. One is absolutely we want to work with all farms of air that are out there, not just this open AI alone, and so we're really excited about that. So stay tuned. We have done con coming up in Bangkok next week, and so we have a bunch of different announcements coming in there. There are other sets of things that we want to do is do more and more
on chain interactions for these AI agents. So today you can use our APIs and you can call all on chain calls, but you have to know what you're asking for. In a future world, for example, instead of having to know that you have to call the dot transfer call on an r C twenty contract, the ideal thing in our API is is to just have that as a first class function. I want to do a transfer, I want to do a trade, I want to do a borrow,
I want to do a lend. All of these are just first class functions in our API, and so that way the AI looks at that, it can read through all the different menu options that it has and it goes to town in terms of deciding how that comes together. So that's another thing that we're working on is we're unlocking basically more and more forms of these on chain actions.
We have a fuel already, right, we have NFT minting, we have EC minting, we have transfers, but we want to add more and more into that set of actions that they can do that. The other big thing is just security, is that we have this two of two model. We want to make more and more complex multi SIGs so you can do that. We want to do an option like different options where the AI can have a human involved and improve everything, but also have examples where
the AI doesn't need to do that. Maybe there's certain dollar values at which you do want a human involved to be able to say before it's allowed to transfer. So it's a world where like the customer is not an AI agent six months ago or a year ago for crypto, and now it is. And what are the use cases and needs that that AI agent has and how's that distinct from what existed before. That's really what we're spending our time thinking through.
Absolutely.
You know earlier and I forgot to ask a fall up question today, you mentioned that the AI agent can have its own NFTs and tokens.
That fascinates me.
So can it be just simply doing work and getting paid and it doesn't have to have a token, but if the person behind it can create those tokens and do some sort of ecosystem with that.
So there are two things. Is that the agent can create a token of its own. So if I decided here's the name I want to name it. Here's the amount of the supply of the RC twenty token is an example that I want to launch. It can go ahead and ask for that token is created on chain and it has the ability to transfer like then it has its treasury, has the ability to transfer that, move that around wherever it wants. And again, the same thing you can do for an NFT. Let's say you wanted
to create a fandom around something. You create five hundred variations of a certain token. Again with Jenai and all that, you can connect that up. You can create five hundred different images. You can you know, basically say like, hey, I want a version of CryptoPunks, but I want this theme. I want you to generate that.
Now.
I want you to turn those into NFTs and have them and whoever reaches out to you and has the most you know, wittiest responses in this twenty four hour period, I want you to give those NFTs out to them as long as they give you, if they give you their you know, their on change. All of that is something now possible. And you know, those are just two
things we do today. But if I compare that to the menu of things you can do on chain, there is so much more that's going to be possible, especially when you bring all those interaction effects among I launched the UFC twenty or launched the NFT. Now you can go use it in a game somewhere. You can use it with a different AI agent where if you have this NFT you can get access to certain content or
unlock a different personality or any of these things. Again, I'm speculating on a lot of this, but it's like, I think we're just scratching the surface of what we see today. And so I think for builders, this is why it's so exciting, is that the lego blocks our start are there, but people are trying to figure out, like what are the end state of things that people are going to build with it, And that's why it's exciting. I think for all of us, it's like we have
some popcorn. It's so exciting to have this front row seat to what people are doing with it.
An AI agent with an NPC wallet, we'll be able to do anything a human can do with a wallet, better, faster, and more complex.
Right.
So that's the kind of analog that I keep in mind, is a agent should be able to do exactly what I do.
Is I want them into Natah, you can do that.
I want to distribute into the tokens distributionment AAGE, you can do that, right, So, but do that at scale and do that instantaneously.
Right.
Imagine Tony, if you know someone's listening to your podcasts and AIG determines is someone that you kind of want
to retain or like engage with. You know, wouldn't be cool for the AGE to say, hey, like, thanks for listening in and here's an NFT for you, and you know, and this will give you some benefit in the future, right without you having to like respond to that a week later after someone comes to you with it, which is far too late than that in the moment, right that, I guess the new zero moment of truth, which is happening like now, right, and then rewarding somebody for that,
at least recognizing someone that for that in a meaningful way that has value, right, So that just points it's actually like real like value, you know, digital assets of value, right, and that's what makes us all.
Exp So Dan, I guess the next step will be you and I set up a call so we can create this thing for my wove viewers of listeners so.
I think you got to give me all your raw footage for for your podcast and your transcripts, and we'll feed it through and and we'll have Lincoln put something together and then we'll call it to Tony Edwards bought or thet.
To that point though, and I think I remember Lincoln mentioning this. You can plug into the YouTube API or maybe Facebook API and do this right.
Anywhere there's an a p I.
Yeah, Toty, just like, I think it'd be really fun as part of this podcast even to include a three minute section of you deploying something, and we're absolutely excited to help you do that. But it could be all the transcripts of all your interviews, right and we can tie that to an on chain n f T which had to you know, see twenty anything else. But I think there could be something really powerful there, and that would be a really fun demo for your for you know, for the viewers.
Our partner or Hive is investing a lot in using AI to create voices and images of likeness, right digital twins. So you know, again, like I think we're already seeing a generated podcasts.
With like really authentic voices, right O.
You need this kind of video on top of that, and I mean, who knows there might be a Tony Edwards AI agent doing multiple interviews a day on specific topics. And that's something that we see a lot of potential in it, right, because it's more than just kind of going out there and pushing out content. It's very engaging and it's educating and there's so many ways you can go with this and you can't do that today because time is the resource that it's very limited for you, right.
This unlocks that right and allows you to do a lot more with a lot less investment.
Of your time and energy.
Oh, for sure, A question I'm gonna ask. I don't know if you guys can touch on this because it's a whole other can of worms and maybe we need like Paul Growall to come in. But an AI agent creating a token. We don't have full crypto legislation here in the United States. The s S you could say, hey, that's a security. I don't know if they will or you know, it's too early, but is that a concern?
Election is only a few days away, right? But look, I mean, what do you think I don't think we know that details?
What I would say, is that like in general, there's been uh, there's been a lot of like mean coins, and that's an example where like, I think that feels qualitially is different than other things. But I am not a lawyer, and we definitely want to know have those
folks in the room to be able to uppine. I think what I just say about this election is like, we're excited that there there're folks on both sides of the aisle that care about crypto, and we think that we have to balance obviously, you know, consumer rights, and we have to balance the innovation that comes from crypto and the huge opportunities that ac crew in the US for being that that you know, the place where crypto where AI a lot of the investments and that are starting,
and so we're really excited excited for that. But I think Paul Grahall would be absolutely great follow up episode on this.
And I think Tony, you your question and I think a couple of questions before it kind of speaks to what I think is emerging truth in this space, which is humans probably still need to be.
Involved at some point.
A lot of advocates out there saying, ohthough 're like, you know, as will fully be autonomous. But you know, I think the more realistic reality is that humans will need to be present, not just in the beginning when you're creating the.
Eye, but to manage and moderate and improve.
So I think that's one of the things that will probably continue to see, is the importance of humans in the moop.
Yeah.
Absolutely, And I once again, I know some of these questions they're too early. We're still too early to determine some of these things. But I'm fascinated by this, and like I said, I'm trying to build something and I'll probably have to have some onfline conversations with you guys, but this is amazing and any any thing else you guys want to highlight or you think you caught everything into conversation so far.
I think for those going to deaf Con next week, we're hosting a series of events and we can send you to links that people want to join us. We're going to be showcasing I think five agents that are going to be doing things on crypto. It'd be fun stuff and they'll be kind of more serious stuff, but it's going to be a really cool moment for for
AI and crypto. And you know, if if anyone's going to Bangkok this year for the conference, we'd love to invite them to, or at least your viewers to one of these events.
Awesome, I'll put those links in the descriptions. Everyone check that out. No, mil Dan, thank you so much. This is exciting stuff and I'll have to have you either individually or both again, maybe in the next three to four months as we get further iterations.
But thank you so much for joining me.
No, thank you.
It was fun and I can sense your enthusiasm and you know, if you can, sends ours and it's just great tend to be alive and and be in this space right There's so much happening out there and we just want we just want this to you have the world to know about it.