¶ Intro
When it comes to tokenization, you have to be careful not to be over excited because you can tokenize. And I said, that looks awesome on paper, but if you don't do anything about it, then it doesn't help. It's useless. It's just a new technology on the top of an asset. Tokenizing is step one of a six step process.
It seems like the race right now is with stable coins and tokenized funds or tokenized assets.
Yeah, exactly.
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I'm a big fan of this hardware wallet. So if you'd like to learn more, visit the link in the description. Hey, folks, welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward and joining me today is Eric Pacini, who is the CEO of Hashgraph. Eric, it's great to have you on.
Thank you, thank you for having me.
Excited to be here, absolutely, Eric, I've been a big fan of Adera for many years. I'm an h BAR token holder, and I'm excited to dive into the latest updates around hashgraf and all the great things you and the folks are doing. Let's kick it off with your background.
¶ Eric's background
Tell us a bit about yourself and your professional background.
Yeah, thank you, thank you for being an h BAR older. I appreciate it. I started my journey in broad chain back in twenty thirteen when I was a partner at Deloids and discover that crypto you know, craziness from a
technology point of you. I'm an engineer, so from a Chroma technology point of view, I was very excited about the big one white paper, and I realized that as Deloid, we needed to be ready to engage with our clients on that topic of crypto, which John turns into the broad chain discussion, the Web three discussion and denity is and all of this. So I've done that for many years. It was really exciting to start something new within the
big organization just with a lot of friends. A lot of people are now steed at Deloid or left Aloid and our you know, a little bit everywhere in the world working on different crypto projects, which is really exciting. I decided to go and started a company with other individuals that I was helping to start the company, so we did that or supply chain, blockchain and supply chain.
We did that for two years. That left to go back to a big firm, IBM, because of a friend of mine asked me to go and help him with innovation, brock chain and new things in an industry that I didn't really know, which was healthcare and life science industry. So I learned a ton on how that industry functioned, the goods are bad and the ugly, right, and then decided to go back to the core, which is Hetera
and be part of that team. Start in March of twenty twenty three, so join men Sending and the founders of EA at that time. And I'm currently the CEO of ash Graph, which is think of age graph at the lab team behind Hetera. So we do products and engineering and security and develops and marketing and communication and a lot of things for the entire ecosystem. So it's an exciting time for us because of many things I'm sure we're going to talk about today.
Yeah, that's awesome. You certainly have a platter of experience at in the world of blockchain and at some very big companies. You mentioned de Lloyd and IBM. When you
¶ IBM Hyperledger Fabric
were at IBM, were they using the hyper Ledger fabric protocols.
I think that's most one most of Yeah, most of what we were building back then was on hyperdage or fabric because that was the IBM platform. Right. We did actually read something very interesting. We build an application where you could collect your healthcare information from different sources, right, your doctor, your pharmacy, the hospitals, your live results into one place, and you could decide how to manage this information your set and share that information with different parties
depending on the need. So you were now in control of your own information, which was a really good case for blockchain, really good case for getting the custody of your own personal data on your phone. Right, So we did that then it was it was pretty successful, and then COVID started uh and we actually did a version of that solution just for COVID, so people could use that solution to collect their test results and their vaccination status and share that back to different entities when they
needed to do this. So we did that for the state of New York, for example, and it was called the Excess your Pass if you were in New York during that time.
Oh wow, I did not know that that that this technology was used in healthcare and in that way during the COVID situation. So with hyper ledger fabric, I'm curious
¶ Private vs Public blockchains
about the dynamic of permission blockchains versus public because hyper Ledger was permission. Do you see a world where both will exist that companies may use permission for certain you know, private information like healthcare data, but public maybe for more finance and things like that.
Yeah, and that's think it's a little bit more detailed than that. Right, you have public and private and permission and permission less, right, so you can mix and much those four things. Obviously, Bitcoin is public permission less, so anything goes right, no one controlled it. Then you have the permissioned private, which is a periodure of fabric which was a limpted number of nodes controlled by the consortium, whoever that consortium is. And it's private because the network
itself is not visible to the public. Right. So you have those two extremes, and then you have flavors in between. What we do is at Eedera, for example, is we are public blod chain, but we are permissioned, right, so you cannot decide tomorrow to run a node on e Era. You need to be part of the council in order to do this. We need to be accepted in the council, and we help you run your own node. But it's public because you can go on an explorer and you
can see all the transactions happending on the right. So that's that's a mix of both things, which is you know, permission but public.
Interesting. So to your point, there's going to be a bit of mix and matching here depending on the need, depending on the industry that's looking to adopt this technology.
Yeah, that way, And you know, we launched about six months ago now we launched a version of a DRAM which is permission still but private because we add a lot of interest from financial institutions all over the world, supply chain companies and so on asking for the same technology.
Because I love of the technology that the actually you know, technology invented by human Baird is really awesome, but it could not afford to live in the public blockchain, right, because of regulatory limitations, because of data residency challenges, because of privacy shoes, right, they didn't want anyone to know that they were transacting with each other. You would see in a public ledger. You don't see that on a
private leisure unless you're part of the consortium itself. So we beat this solution called ash sphere, and that's a version of it. There are that is leveraging the exact same technology, except that it's a private network as opposed to a public network.
Is it any the drugs?
Yeah?
Is it kind of like a layer two or is it like sitting side by side and there's a bridge for a certain information.
It's not AREO two. It's a side by side and a connection bridge, an interconnection between the nash sphere which is a private version and man net, which is a public version, or between ash fear themselves. You can also bridge different private versions with each other if you want to.
Very interesting. So this allows those who face significant regulatory compliance and handle very sensitive information to do these transactions, whether it be banks, maybe healthcare companies and getting the blockchain benefits. But it's not open to the public.
Yeah, And it's also a way, the way I think of it, it is, you know, it's still a brand new technology, right, so a lot of traditional organizations are going to be very concerned about exposing something to the public and they don't really know the specifics. So for them to go and say, yes, I'm going to be running on the public blockchain, it's a really hard mental barrier, right.
So if it gives them a chance to do it in the private environment, which is something that they're more familiar with, and then over time they might decide, you know, I feel much more comfortable now with the technology and the code and the permission aspects and the way the technology works. Consensus mechanisms. I'm okay, now opening to the public. You know, I think that's also a journey for our clients.
That makes sense. It's like a stack ground and they feel comfortable and confident and then they move it over and if they want to to the public network.
Yeah. The point to the point, for the point for us is regardless of where you are as an organization in your journey of adoption, we can find you where you are. We're not going to force you to come to us. We're going to find a way a pass for you to engage with us and benefit from that awesome technology that we have at it.
So, I don't know if this question makes sense. In that hash fear private chain so to speak, is the
¶ Hbar token on private network
h par token also running through the rails there or not?
So it's it's not. You can decide, because you actually manage this ash fear as a consortium, for example, you can decide to create your own token into that ash fere and benefit from that. The edge bar crypto itself is not used unless you are using a bridge to man that, and in that case, yes, there is an interaction with the edgebar as a cryptocurrency. There is as a token there is that is the need for exchange.
But you can decide whether you have a token or not, whether you want to have that token exposed to the public or not. You can decide a lot of things, which is again the flexibility of using the technology the way you want as an organization, not the way the vendor, which it does are forcing you to do.
Right now, one of the things I know HADERA has
¶ Governance council
a massive governing council with some very big names like Google, IBM and so forth. Are those folks like testing on hash fear. Can you give you examples of some of the things they may be testing or piloting if you can.
So that most of them are a building on public on the public leisure on the public man net, right. A few of them are doing hybrid, right. A few of them are saying I need both because they are very specific needs that needs that privacy construct or that that are right, I cannot have my transactions being verified outside of a country or a region, right, So they need this, But they also have a lot of needs for the public version, and so they usually do a mix of both with a bridging in between.
Yeah, that that definitely makes sense. So it's very much going to be this hybrid adoption model, so to speak, the private aspect and then the public. So, yeah, that definitely makes sense.
I've been a big fan of this model for a long time, right, I remember the early days we were finding you know, private versus public you're wrong, You're wrong. You know, that's not the way to do it, right. I don't know why we need to choose, right. The part is you don't have to choose. You can decide to engage with that technology in a lot of different ways, and then you decide over time which you want to
move from one structure, one framework to another. But we shouldn't force organizations to use one step of mind versus another. I mean, that's not the way business works, right. You have to meet the business where they are.
Absolutely, Yeah, and the real world, you know, there's a lot of different moving parts and components in business, so it's not one size fits all. There has to be customization for different aspects of the business.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
So some of these folks that you mentioned that are building in the government councilor are building on hedera, what
¶ What institutions are building
are they building? Are they tokenizing assets? Are they using blockchain to move data? Maybe in supply chain or things like that.
Yeah, all of the you know, so we have thirty two or thirventy three now cancer members, right, so we have a lot of diversity. Some of them are working on Steblequom right on a draw. Some of them are working on supply chain like you mentioned, and by the way, not just them, right, you have a lot of organizations outside of the Cancer also building on it. There are for supply chain for example, for purposes. Some of them are building aainst the sustainability market right and managing carbon
credits and carbon footprint right on e era. We do a lot of work in the I with some of them capturing what an AI agent or an AI mottor is doing and using there are as a trust layer for these AI activities to be recorded and being able to be auditored in the future. It's beneath you, so
very differently use cases, you know, across the board. I would say, if I have to pick the big topics, I would say it's for it's sustainability, it's to organization of real assets, it's stable bombing, and it's now the AI and we do have actually built over the last eighteen months or so, very specific, but because studio dedicated to those topics, right, AI organization, stable corn and sustainability.
Sustainability for a while. We've been working on this for a while, and now we have a way to engage with there are with a public of private you are a way to engage with an abstruction layer on the top of the network, which accelerate your adoption. So if you want to build a stable consolution, you can do that in weeks. On the top of it. There are because we've built all the pieces on the top of it, all are necessary for you to build your stable cone for example.
That's really great, so it's kind of turnkey if you can come in, everything is set up there and you can hit the ground running.
Yeah yeah, I mean, we are trying to remove the friction, right. We are trying to say, if you want to use this amazing technology that we have, talk to us. We are removing the friction as much as we can and tell us but what else we can do to remove additional friction, So you don't have to think about the complexity of the technology. You just plug and play if you want. Right. It's like you know, back in the day, you are saying, okay, I'm going to move to the cloud.
Sounds very very complicated, it sounds very scary and all of that. But over time, you know, the industry was able to create those abstraction there and migration tools to move from the older world to the new world. And that's exactly what we do.
Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. And then you know, some of the things I want to highlight here because I've seen them in the news was, for example, crypto Exchange are checks putting a tokenized money market fund launching on Hedera. There was also news of here, I think swarm they launch a DeFi compatible tokenized stocks on headera. So you have a lot happening, a lot of building. It seems
¶ Tokenization market
like the race right now is with stable coins and tokenized funds or tokenized assets. Is that kind of the what everybody, A lot of these institutions are looking to do right now.
It is, and it's across the board. It's not just you know, capital market companies, which you think would be
the one. We do a lot of work with this company called rete Swan, which is a toganization of real estate, and it's amazing the level of tractions are getting tokenizing real estate projects and offering investors a chance to participate in those projects, where before I didn't even know those projects existed and I could invest in them, right, and now you can, and regardless of where you are in the world, almost you can invest in those projects. So
that isn't a lot of energy around this. When it comes to togonization, you have to be careful not to be over excited because you can tokenize an asset and that looks awesome on paper, but if you don't do anything about it, then it doesn't it doesn't help it. It's useless. Right, it's just a new technology on the top of an asset. What you need to do is
you need to create a market. You need to create some quidity, you need to create demand, you know, So all of those things that are traditional finance kind of activities, they still need to happen even when you tokenize the asset. Right, Toconizing is step one of a six step process, right, you know, we have to be very realistic about expectations aroundganization. Yes, please tognize because it gives investor access twenty four by seven, you know, un chain trust ability, blah blah blah, all
some stuff. But you still have to do the rest of the work right. You still have to find distribution channels, You still have to find investors, you still have to report to the regulators and to those investors. All of that still needs to happen. It's not just the chganization of yet.
That's such a great point because it would be like me tokenizing my house versus someone tokenizing the Empire State Building. One is very well known across the world. It's in prime real estate in Manhattan. One is in the suburbs. I don't think there's going to be a big market for it, but there would be a big market for the Empire State Building. So it's very much on, you know, depending on the asset, the mass awareness of that asset, and is there a market for.
It exactly exactly and then and you want to activate equally for that set. So if you if you say, okay, everybody invested in the Empire of ten building tomorrow, Okay, I'm investing and I'm going to sit on it forever. Okay, great, But that's not great. That's not enough, right to me,
that's not enough. That's not ambitionous. They left the ambition is now now I have you know, thousands of investors in that building and they can use that investment as a cordacter or to get a loan, and that creates equality, and that creates you know a lot of activity associated with this investment that I didn't have access to before. Right, So that's that's the exciting part. Is the engine around the organization is expanding liquidity, expanding trust, and expanding access to those assets.
Yeah, that's another great point, Like it's not just holding
¶ Tokenized asset DeFi
the asset, but what can you do with it? And the DeFi component is huge, and it can open up so many opportunities for people to gain capital, to maybe get working capital, to fix or buy or whatever they want to do with it. But the point is they have the collateral and then with the blockchain, you open up a kind of a global market. It's not just people in the United States, but maybe someone in Hong Kong wants to will be willing to lend me some money based on the collateral I provide.
Exactly, especially if you asked to be if you ask to borrow in a stepacon, which you also on chain and more so you know twenty four by seven and so on, so so now you can you know, buy a percentage of the empire or still building to use your example, and then the day after collateralize this investment and get a loan in your SDC to buy you know, another asset and do you know maybe some management around this. Right, So that is a lot of things you can unlock
by toponizing. My point is the doctanization itself is not enough. You need to do more than that to benefit from this technology.
Yeah, great, great point, And that absolutely makes sense, and that I guess that's what SWARM specifically. You know, they're looking to enable DeFi compatibility for those tokenized stocks and herderis.
And in many of these we have a lot of companies, amazing companies on the ecosystem trying to you know, benefit from this, and they all understand the need for technology innovation and technology adoption, but also for business innovation, which is the ultimate goal, right, The ultimate goal is to innovate from a business point of view, not just I have a great platform. Listen to me, right, It's not enough. It's never been enough, right, And I've been in the
business for thirty years. When you sell technology, you don't sell the core technology, you sell the output, the outcome of that technology and what it means for you as an investor, as an asset manager, what it means for you to use that technology. That's what we need to force on.
Oh, absolutely, talk to us a bit about how you and the folks at hashcraft are prepared to handle the domain and volume. So let's say, with crypto legislation getting passed and tradify institutions are looking to build stable coins, tokenize assets and much more is headera. You know, what are the steps or plans you have in place to handle that volume and transactions? And maybe you can talk a bit about the latency and tps and all these things.
Yeah, so I think you have really three ways to look at your question. You can look at it from a technology capability point of view, right, and you can say he there are public today is about ten to twenty TP twenty thousand tps? Right, ten to twenty thousand tps that you can run on the header are public laser. That's that's a really good you know tps right for LAO one. But in some instances, as a demand grows, we would need to have additional capabilities. That's where I
fear could play a role. Right, you can outfload some of that activity into a private leisure for very high speed and high volume transactions, and then use the public ledger for anchoring that I should sphere that private version on a regular basis, so now you're offloads of the transaction to anach fear. The other way to do that is to do shouting, which we can activate charging on the top of EDERA as well. There is a lot of ways to scale from a technology point of view, right,
So that's the first way to think about scaling. The second one is really people because that and that's that's an interesting challenge in our industry right in Web three, finding the right engineers, the right you know, business development people, the right product leaders is not easy. Right. There's a lot of competition and the poor is of resources is still kind of small, so you have a challenge of
finding the right people. I think our position is we've been seen from the very beginning as the adults in the room, and so we are able to attract in as graph and there are in our entire ecosystem. A lot of people would be scared by Web three because it's too wide, or it's too massy, or it's too focused on you know the volatility of the cryptocurrency itself.
You know, we are a different breed if you want, in Web three, and so we have a really good chance about acquiring very strong talent coming from what I would go Web two into into our world. So that's that stress level around finding the right people is lower for us because of that, because of our brand across. And then the third piece of scaling to your point, right, So we talked about the technology, we talked about finding
the right people. There is an ecosystem piece, right, and how do we make sure that the ecosystem is actually scaling with us, right, so that we have enough bridges. We have enough you know, oracles, we have enough, w weird enough. And that's where we partner a lot with the foundations, where we have two different foundations helping ve ecosystem grow with us. And those grants if you port you know those companies and they are very very active
in the in the ecosystem. So between those three things, I feel very comfortable that we are, you know, in a unique position to scale as the demands the demand scale for for the for the technology.
Yeah. Absolutely, I don't know if you can answer this, but you know, the folks who are part of your
¶ Governing council advisory
governing counsel are some of the largest companies in the world, have a lot of experience and web two and technology. I'm assuming you're in contact with them and they're providing ideas and helping you along the way as well.
Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. So that's that's one of the value of the Cancer is to actually listen to them, and we go to them four times a year. We have four Cancer members meeting every year, two in person, two virtual, and we talk to them outside of those mani as well. But during those meetings we say, what
do you need? What kind of capabilities do you think are useful for you to continue to build down all right, And that's where the idea of those studios I mentioned earlier, the AI studio, the table corn studio, the organization studio,
that's where it came from. It came from discussion with the market of all but specifically with Cancer members who said, you know, that would be great if we could get so they didn't think of the idea of studio, but they said, I need a togalization platform on the top of it there, and we said, oh awesome, we can't build that and we did, so that is a lot of collaboration between us and the member of the cancer
to build the next generation. So it's it's kind of a luxury for us to have that cancer because we can do puct product market fits with them before we actually go to market. So we have a unique advantage once again, the unique advantage as a platform. You know too very often ask me what is your different share as a project, and I say, we are free. We have technology is very unique, very good, very fast, very secure, low latency, finality, fair ordering, really really important thing, right
from a technology point of view. We have the cancer, which is this body of requirements and users for the technology. So that's our you know, incubator if you want, almost right, And then we have this decision that was made very early on by the co founders of Developments and Leomen just to have a fixed price for the transaction in US dollar as opposed to encrypto. Right, so the cost of a transaction fee is always going to be the
same in US dollar. So when your business and you hear that, you don't care about the value of vegicle because you're always paying right, So h part was up and down doesn't matter to you your business case is still the same, which is very hard to do if you use another block chain who's using crypto as a way to pay for tunasaction fees. And that those three things, the core technology, the cancer and the fifteen dollar are really the different share for us. It's really really amazing what we are.
That's amazing, uh and pretty groundbreaking. Specifically that the settlement is in US dollars versus the crypto asset, very different from everything out there in the industry.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's why I'm excited, you can tell, right. So those three things are so unique that I know we have a very unique way to engage with the market. We and and with you know, a very big and very small organizations like m HM.
Talk to us a bit about the use of AI
¶ AI integration
and how you envision that fitting into the web three ecosystem. Will it be used to assist people in those studios when they are ready to you know, launch a stable coin or tokenize an asset or whatever it is.
Yeah, that is a lot of ways to think about AI and drop chain. I usually think about those four different dimensions. I'm going to go quick. The first one is it's going to be hard in the future to trust a single company to do every single I for me,
me as an organization, me as an individual. Some of the decentralization of an AI solution, I think it's going to be really really important, right, So you don't have to trust one single entity on one single government by the way, to have an ALI solution delivered to you. That's number one. Number two, as I mentioned earlier, which is mostly what to be done with the AI studio,
is using rock chain as a trust that your AI. Right, So, an AI solution, whether it's model and agent, whatever you know AI you're using, is sourcing data, collecting data, training, delivering results and those result can actually get used to for another agent. That's supply chain. But I call the supply chain of AI needs to be anchored on the blockchain to be trusted and to be auditable. Right, So
that's the second piece. The third piece is all those AI agents that we are starting to run and use every day, almost every day, and almost all of us will have two exchange value. They're gonna have to pay each other for a transaction. They're going to have to buy something from you or sell something from me, and those activities need to use blockchain technologies because that's been designed for this exact case. Right. So AI is you know, staple corn with the first killer. I think AI is
AI agents in particular is the second one. And then of course you use I as a tool to your point to accelerate what we do. I think I talked to my head of a genera and the other day it was telling me about fifty percent of the code that we generate now is done buy an AI. Right. And so our clients are the same, you know, the big organization on the cancel and beyond. They are also
using AI to accelerate the development of solutions. So everything acceerates and any everything we need an anchor from a trust point of view, which is I think where we play as an industry, not just as there are.
By the way, Yeah, that's really great, and I'm really excited to see the agentic world and the use of stable coins and crypto assets and blockchain rails. It's it's going to be pretty fascinating and the new opportunities that opens up for people to be entrepreneurs. And I know folks have been talking about there may be single entrepreneurs who are running a team of AI agents and they're billionaires. It's it's fascinating.
Yeah, I think that was family said that, right, you said the next next billionaire is going to be a kid in a garage running a company with a bunch of AI agents working for him or her. Yeah.
Yeah, it's so fascinating.
I'm curious.
¶ Roadmap
Well, what's on your roadmap? You know, what can we expect from hash grafh in the coming ones?
Wow? Do you have an hour in front of you? Well, I mean maybe across the different dimensions of what we do right we are we are planning on expanding the cancer adding more cancer members, which is always exciting because that's validation for us. But it's also more use cases and more ways to build new things for our cancer members.
So that's one dimension that I'm excited about. We don't announce, you know, in advance we're going to be on the cancer so I cannot talk too much about this, but we have a very strong pipeline from a technology point
of view. If sure the developer, I invite you to look at blockstream and block nodes, which is the next generation of the infrastructure around the consensus and the talken service that we have on there are those are really exciting innovations that are coming out now as we speak, and we have you know, a lot of activities beyond that. We have a protocol that given beds of one of the co founders of it, there are uh uh is working on which is to interoperate between two different blockchain
without the lead of a bridge. Right. So so now now we go, we go to from a world where bridges are becoming the central checkpoint of that world to becoming to remove them from the picture, because that technology can enable two different broad chains to talk to each other without the need of a of a central party, right, which is more in line with the spirit of blockchain, right,
the the centralization spirit of broad chain. So that's that's also very exciting, right, and it's exciting to me as well. Is what we talked about studio earlier on the on the on the podcast. Here is the expansion of those studios to cover additional geography. For example, the Condulation Studio is expanding beyond the traditional places where we've been building right in Dubai, Singapore, or the US, Europe, London, many other places in the world where that the coorganization studio
will become Availibler. So yeah, really really exciting time across the board, across the topic. So now if you're interested in any of this, you know, let me know to join us because we need more people all the time. Yeah, oh absolutely.
And then you know, in regards to the larger market,
¶ US Crypto legislation
we've seen the Genius Act get passed for stable coins, we get the Clarity Act coming up. You know, I love to get your perspective on what this means for hadera hash graft and uh, you know, innovating and building now that we are in a much more favorable environment.
I think it's abusive, it's of It's fantastic for US as an industry right to have clientie. From a regulatory point of view, I can't wait for the Genius Act to pack because that's going to give us, not the Genius aide the CLIITI happ into paths because the Clarity Act is really about Clarity, is about giving us a clear position on what we can expect from a regulatory point of view. We've been historically very conservative and very
good too with the regulator. We are US based project for technologists, right, we are a US based project in crypto and because of that, We've been very, very engaged with the regulators over time and very consistent with what they were acting us to do. We are the adults in the room again, right from a regular great point of view as well, and so that's that's really important to get Clilie. What's also interesting is that it creates
additional energy for our clients. So our clients now are coming back and saying, you know, stable pointing now we have genius acts. I'd love to hear how I can benefit from your platform. You have a stable pond studio. What can I do with this? Right? They hear that in the news. They don't really kind of know yet how they can benefit from this, and we prive away. We say, okay, let's build one in you know, next week,
and then we can see how it works. Right. The lot of the fact that they can they can enable their business to use a new stable command or and you tocnize cash to tognize deposits UH in their in their business. So Clyde is good. Regulatory client is always good. I think it's interesting that the bigger picture, it actually rebalances the activity around blockchain and web three a little bit more back to the US because of that, So this is you know, good good for the US economy
in the US innovation. Yeah. You know.
Funny you mentioned, you know, the move to Web three because for a while we've been hearing Web three, Web three, but we haven't seen the bridges built for people to start to move over to Web three from Web two. But I think with regulation in places, I think you'll start seeing the mass accidents, so to speak.
Back to yeah, and and developers, right, so developers are saying, so before I was taking a risk by joining Web three because I don't know what's going to happen to this industry, right, maybe it's going to be a criminal industry in the future. Now they say the risk is much lower, So now I can invest my time in building on the top of it. There are and support this ecosystem. I think that it's across the world. It is really important to get that level of energy instruction in our industry.
Yeah. Absolutely, And I can't wait to see the innovation and the building that comes out of it. You know, you mentioned the impact on the economy, lots of jobs being created, a lot of wealth and things like that. So it's exciting times.
It is. It is you know I've been in this industry, as I said, for twenty years now. I've hit very old in this industry twelve years in a long time. But I was excited that when I started. You know, it's it's just it's giving me a lot of energy, a lot of reasons to continue to build and continue to change the way we operate as businesses that individuals. It's really really an exciting time.
Great stuff, Eric, I got some wrap up questions here
¶ Wrap up questions
for you. First, if you could create your own metaverse, what would.
The theme be, Oh, we haven't told about me metaverse? You wi right? Yes, you're right. I would create a metaverse to visit all the different amazing places on the planet. All right. So I would love to be able to go to visit, you know, places in Italy, in Thailand, in Japan without a bit to travel for like a the a half to go there and that I have to come back. I would love to be able to do that.
Yeah, same here, rapid fire questions. Favorite food.
Oh ah, and that's odd, As you know. I I on one dish that I really like because my grandmother and my mother were cooking. That is a dish from North Africa. It's called coss coats, So it's it's costs courts in the in the US means the grain itself, but in Europe and in North Africa it's a dish with meat and vegetables and fantastics. And of course my grandmother very nice.
Favorite musician or bad I am.
I am an old school I love Frank SINATURA favorite movie, Oh that's too loud?
Or maybe the most recent movie you saw that was that you thought was good.
I like Broadway shows and so I like the musics, right, so, so yeah, I would keep one. Wicked, I love I love Wicked for the Broadway show. The movie too, but the Broadway show was the first thing I got exposed to.
I would say, yeah, yeah, my wifriend and I saw that two years ago.
Favorite book I like sig you know, start with why work? Because it forces you to stand back in your life and say, yeah, what am I doing here? Right? Why are we doing this?
So?
I like I like that book from a business point view and a reflection set reflection in front of.
You, And I think I know the end to this. I think it might be tennis. But what do you like to do for fun when you're not working?
It is. It is tennis. Yeah. I love playing, love watching, love going to the US Super and we just did last weekend with my wife. Yeah, Pennis for sure.
Awesome. Eric, pleasure chatting with you, and I'm really excited for their future updates around Hashgraff and Hidera. Would love to have you back on. But thank you so much for joining me.
Thank you, thank you for having me. Looking forward to the next one.