And so you can take that token to posit it into our smart contract, and our smart contract basically locks it. So and it mints an S token, and that s biddle doesn't it's not a wrapper of the security. It doesn't provide the holder of the S token any rights or recourse.
To the actual security.
But what it does is it's sort of a technical guarantee that this security is unincomable.
This content is brought to you by bitco, which is one of the top crypto custodians in the crypto industry. Bitco works with many big companies and brands such as Pantera Capital, Bitstamp, and bitcoin Ira. Nike also selected Bitgo to power its wallets for its NFTs and bitco has many great services such as hot wallets, custodial wallets, self
managed cold wallets, and NFT wallets. Many institutions bitgo with its top level security and incredible services such as being able to deploy your capital while it's in custody, which includes lending, borrowing, tradings, taking DeFi access and more. If you'd like to learn more about bitco, please visit bitgo dot com link in the description Welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward, and my guest today is Read Simon, who's the head of DeFi and
Credit Solutions at Securities Read. Great to have you on MI.
Likewise, thanks for having me Tony Read.
As we were discussing before the recording, I follow securities for many years. I've interviewed Carlos Domingo, Jamie Finn, and I'm excited to be speaking with you today because there's been some new updates and some very big news around securities and we're going to get into all the details. But tell us a bit about yourself, where you're from and what's your professional background.
Sure, so originally from New York.
My background has been a weird amalgam of kind of finance, heck and crypto. I spent the last six years at Botching dot com building their credit business, build credit products at uber was a banker and a former life But now I kind of get to sit in between all of these exciting elements and bring in some of the tradify background and help try to figure out ways for securities that we issue, had securities to be able to interact with DeFi the way it operates today.
And what was your first encounter with bitcoorn or crypto, what was your aha moment?
Well, so they were different. So my first experience with bitcoin was in twenty eleven. I needed access to where I wanted access to a newsgroup and that kind of
was what opened opened my eyes. And then I kind of forgot about it for about a year and was actually in Argentina and I guess this was during the last the last term of Kirchner, and you know, dollars were just you would change them, and I was curious, you know, why different notes were getting different rates and found out, you know, the five hundred euro note was the one that got the best exchange rate and was talking with people and they were like, oh, but you know,
bitcoin actually gets an even higher rate. And then it was like everything clicked. And being on the ground I was living there doing a study abroad and just seeing you know, two forced evaluations and kind of just the everyone was changing, was changing paces for dollars. That like, that was really my AHA moment where I was like, oh my god, this actually exists in the real world and its solving like a real critical problem.
M HM. And your background you mentioned in banking your d creditsueeze, and then you were Uber and now you're in crypto. Do you see crypto being that evolution of the banking finance industry? But in addition Uber, maybe it can be considered Web two and it eventually has to merge over to Web three.
Absolutely.
I mean, you know, I think back on a lot of the frustrations of kind of how you know, banking operates, even if it's just these legacy systems built on top of other legacy systems that don't communicate with each other, and the walled gardens and inefficiency and absolutely, you know, if you think about industry that haven't been revolutionized by technology, even sort of in a Web two, you know, function
finances is certainly one of those. And yeah, I would say, you know, part of the reason I joined securitized is because you have so much excite mint and innovation and kind of the crypto world, but you still have the realities of like the deepest capital markets and the investor protection of kind of securities regulations. And we see these two worlds kind of merging together, and I see securitizing at exactly kind of the nexus of those two.
Do you think we might see Uber and this is a hard question, you know, integrate blockchain. And it's funny that I remember years ago SEC chair Gary Genser, who's on his way out, he said, you could build Uber on top of algorand the Algoran blockchain, which is you know, fascinating,
is out of security. Yeah, but it's funny because I think he has a point though, right, that you can have blockchain integrated into these Web two companies, helping him to move to Web three and then maybe better digital identity and verification and faster transaction speeds with stable coins and things like that.
Yeah.
So I mean, actually, while it was Uber, there was a crypto project that was being explored, but it was more so on on the payment side. And I think you kind of see some similar corollaries for like what PayPal is doing with p y u s D and kind of using that stable coins as a means for internal treasury efficiency, and so for at Uber, it was more so around like payment processing fees and being able to move money more quickly to drivers in kind of
an internal system. So for sure, but I mean I guess, you know, could could Uber be run on a blockchain?
I mean, I don't know about this scale and kind of the transaction speed element of Trips and all of the kind of other data that would need to be processed but os sensibly Yeah, but I guess it comes to that big question, which is like did everything need to be run on a blockchain or should everything be organize And I guess, you know, I would probably say no, but I think cases like identity and trips a lot of I think there's kind of sub elements of their
business model that are certainly beneficial to have some type of distributed ledger support it.
Yeah.
Absolutely, And maybe it's a hybrid model that we might see some of these companies do where not everything in their business is running on the blockchain, but certain aspects like you mentioned, and maybe it's just simply using stable coins for faster transaction than settlement and on the back end or whatever it may be.
But we'll have to.
See how these things evolve. Absolutely, But for those who may not have heard of securities, can you give a quick overview what you guys do?
Sure?
So, securitizing is sort of one of the og tokenization platforms. Historically, we've had a very regulated footprint and we really haven't been a crypto company so we have a transfer agent, we have a broker dealer license, we have an ATS license, and we have an investment advisor. So kind of all of the core regulatory structures to enable the issueance, sale, and trading of digital securities, and that's really kind of
formed the basis of the company. So our goal was to go out to top tier asset managers UH token IDEs their their private assets and then be able to distribute them on chain UH to investors in you know, smaller ticket sizes, and then be able to provide users, UH the opportunity to not just hold an asset in you know, their Morgan Stanley Bank account or you know another you know kind of internal ledger, but be able to bring those assets on chain and find ways to
unlock all of the great composed billy and utility that you know, crypto and lawn chain activity entails.
And of course the biggest news that I think most people are familiar with is you guys working with black Rock to launch Biddle, your tokenized fund, and that is growing significantly. I think early this year I read it went over five hundred million dollars. It might be higher now.
Yeah.
Yeah, So I mean, if if you would have said that I would have, you know, left a proper crypto crypto company to move to work on a money market fund. I would have told you that you were crazy, Like who would have who would have thought at that time that you know, these products would have such great upload uptake.
But if you think about, like you know, people have repeated this, but like the best product market fit in crypto is stable coins, right, And if you think about, you know, the proportion of dollars in the US financial system versus kind of the treasuries that ultimately back those those dollars, it's.
Like ten to tend to want treasuries to dollars.
And then you look at our universe of on chain dynamics and it's a total opposite. I mean, I think we have maybe two billion of treasury products on chain and then something like one hundred and seventy billion of
stable coins. So there really has been this great, great up uptake not only just amongst institutional investors, but also retail for a whole host of products where they are actually getting yield from from the treasuries instead of kind of the traditional stable coin providers keeping it for themselves.
Now, let's talk about s tokens tell us what this is and what are the benefits and functionality of it.
Yeah, so, you know, if you think about real world assets, you've kind of got two different categories of that, Right, You've got real world assets that are securities and are regulated and have kind of a regulatory obligation to fulfill, and then you've got kind of a whole host of
some might be securities, some are definitely not securities. And so for us, all the assets that we issue, our securities and s tokens are really kind of the technical implementation to help break down some of the friction points that really make it difficult for securities to interact with DeFi the way DeFi operates today. So the securities that we issued their permission so they can only go to certain addresses that have been ky seed.
But it's not just KYC it's they have.
To maintain certain ownership records for how many holders exist in certain j stictions. But even more than that, you know, can of security sit in a smart contract? Can someone earn LP fees off of a security is at a
broken dealer fee? So there's just really a whole host of kind of regulatory and legal friction points for security is on chain, and so our S tokens are a means to kind of responsibly and and compliantly be able to allow securities to interact with DeFi the way that you know, you or I would go onto whatever platform and do whatever we like.
So just why I break it down for the audience. So let's say we tokenize or let's use the Biddle example. Right, how does are the token ized shares a Biddle S tokens or S tokens exist outside of the Biddle shares?
How does that work?
So, so think about it this way, Like, aside from some of the kyic elements like a security, the defining feature of a security is really that it has some stable value component, a variable return, and then maybe some forward stream of distributions. Right, But it's really kind of that variable return or the forward distributions that make that
asset actually become a security. Right, So if you kind of think about the parts that make up a security, our S token vaults allow you to extract the stable value component and use that in a permissionless fashion to be able to be a collateral asset. So that's kind of like if you think about it from a high level view, but I think more kind of tactically as
it relates to Biddle. Biddle itself is a stable nav fund, so the token always priced at one, and you receive your interest as distributions, right, And so you can take that token, deposit it into our smart contract, and our smart contract basically locks it so and it mints an S token, and that S Biddle doesn't it's not a wrapper of the security. It doesn't provide the holder of the S token any rights or recourse to the actual security.
But what it does is it's sort of a.
Technical guarantee that this security is unincomorable, so you can't borrow against it, someone else can't use it. And that token then provides the holder sort of like comfort that that dollar actually exists. And if I do liquidate the S token, I'm going to be able to receive I'm going to be made money good. And what's interesting about this is, again because Biddle is permissioned, not anyone can just buy it, right, not anyone can hold it even if even if someone or to default on it, because
it's permissioned. But what we're able to do with our vault is essentially keep the securities flows between whitelisted users and then have stable coins or S tokens flow between kind of the non ky seed or non permissioned addresses, and part of that is is enabled through circles atomic liquidity contract where when the S token comes back to
our contract, there's four internal transactions. It burns the S token, it unlocks the security, it redeems the security with a circle, and then we forward the USDC to the redepositing address. So it's really one of these kind of like technical and legal implementations that unlocks a lot of utility for holders a bit.
And I know you guys are working with Elixir on this. I remember speaking to to I think it was sometime this year. Is it in regards to their setup? Which protocols can this be used on as far as defire protocols.
So our focus at Securitize, like I said, our regulated footprint is really focus on issuing assets from the highest quality asset managers. And then if you think about our credit entities which issue as tokens, were kind of one step over right, So we kind of unlock that intermediate utility and then we look to partner with other providers who can deliver kind of the last mile of utility
in DeFi. So with respect to Elixer, they read the code, they get comfortable with the code, and they look at black Rock or Hamilton Lane or some of the other products that will issue, and they say, okay, we think that this is money good to to be.
Able to lend against.
And that's really kind of the core unlock here is then users who have Biddle can mint s bittle, they can mint the us D and then d USD is a stable coin net Elixir issues and it's permissionless and all over. So it really allows users the ability to retain their interests on their security. But then you know, undertake activity that kind of fit in their risk spectrum.
So some people may want to go quite out on the edge and do some some really esoteric things, or some of them they just you know, want to you know, lp into a stable coin pool that has no impermanent loss. It really is about allowing users to use base assets that are high quality and then kind of choose how they want to interact with with crypto to to fit their risk profile.
Interesting. So and you mentioned this is only for accredited investors. Are you seeing like hedge funds, family offices and so forth using this type of service.
Yeah, so it's interesting, right, like when when Biddle was launched, guilds were about five percent.
We hadn't really seen this uplift in.
Bitcoin prices, and so you know, interest rates on chain were, I don't know, around four or five six percent, and so it was a comparable a comparable yield, but still not super attractive given kind of all of the permissioning
and kind of reduced utility of the security. And now you see yields you know, north of twenty six percent twenty seven percent on just just the basis trade, right, which is a delta neutral strategy that other than the platform or counterparty risk doesn't have have a price impact. And so now if you look at you know, being able to use Biddle as as kind of that base asset through through s BITTLE and d U s D, you're now able to access those yields while still doing
so with your with your Biddle. So in some cases you could argue that it's actually because you can't really do the basis trade with a yield bearing asset at that scale. It's kind of a it really is kind of one of the best use cases for being able to capture basis right now.
Mm hmm. And you know we're using BIDDLE as an example. Are there other uh tokenization of real assets examples that you can share?
I is so in terms of like scope for.
Instance, yeah, or if there are any other existing ones, or if there's others on the roadmap that you're planning to enable this war.
Yeah.
So our view is like, and I've said this a couple of times, it's like, we kind of deal in boring, boring products, but we want those boring products and we think they're interesting because they're super high quality, and we make them base assets so people can in crypto can then kind of build build on top of them and do more interesting things. So our focus has been on kind of private assets. You could take BIDDLE as an example,
which is treasuries. There's basically no risk in the US government defaulting on these, and then you can kind of move down the risk spectrum. So we have Hamilton Lane their Senior Credit Fund, which is a credit fund that only invests in senior secured loans to corporations. There's there'll be another credit fund that's coming out from another top tier investment manager.
We've got a KKR.
Healthcare Fund, but really private assets by high quality issuers that you know, have been in the business for one hundred literally hundreds of years, manage trillions of dollars and have really kind of, you know, really have a focus on the expertise that Wall Street has in making investments and managing those investments and really being able to take the best elements of that world and kind of merge them with the best elements of being able to the
user experience and the opportunities for transacting on chain.
So on that note, what do you think might be the phase two of RBA tokenisation? Given at we got money market funds and things like that, what do you think might be the next uh of a phrasing this right, the next product that that is tokenized so to speak.
So I don't know, I don't know what the next product to be tokenized will be, but I think kind of the phase two that I'm excited for is more so around the way that.
That DeFi.
Looks at real world assets and so so what I mean by this is all you know, all of DeFi, you know, whether it's AVE or you know, pick your your CDP platform. Everyone has been focused on kind of point in time liquidity and liquidity is something that you know, Bitcoin adds arguably some of the best liquidity across you know, really any asset, maybe aside from from treasuries, but at least that trades. And so it's been this point in time. So like the moment bitcoin drops below X, you know,
there's a four starbatrage, someone comes in and liquidates. But if you look at some of these private assets that we've mentioned, you know, these the volatility of their underlying investments is really quite low, and even so in the case that most of them only get marked once a month because there's not that much fluctuation in between in
between the month. So I think as we get some more of these assets that have you know, composibility and interoperability with DeFi, I think we're going to start to see DeFi protocols that take a different view on liquidity, which is okay, if this fund has you know, it's issued by a manager who the firm has been around for one hundred years. They manage about a trillion dollars. The thing returns maybe ten percent a year. These type of funds don't fall fifty percent overnight. And so thinking
about what's the liquidity of a fund like that? And maybe it's only fifty cents, but looking at it kind of a more expanded view of an asset for its quality rather than just kind of the point in time. Okay, you're done, let's let's move on.
Mm hmm. Do you think it makes sense that eventually ETFs might be tokenized like uh, bigcoin ETFs or a basket ETF with crypto ascids? If you know, Big One is going to become this strategic reserve asset and so forth used by different governments.
I mean, so, so will ETFs be will ETFs be tokenized?
Is that? Is that what you're saying? Yeah?
And and maybe you know Big One obviously already on chain, easily accessible and so forth. But do you think some of the institutional investors or credit investors may want to get access to not bitcoin directly, but through an ETF maybe black Rock Blackrocks version I bit? Does that make sense that I don't? I'm asking as like a.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I think it's interesting. I mean, I I hold I a bit, I hold some you know, eth.
I think it really depends on like the investor, right, I think part of the reason that crypto has had such great success is because the user experience is a
better one. And so to the question around ETFs, like, I would one hundred percent love to hold in an actual S and P five hundred tokenized form because of all of the composibility and the ability to to lever it and move it and really managed assets in one place instead of needing to move it on chain or off chain, right, And so I think there's like this push pull of crypto people would like to get some more legitimate cash flow business assets on chain, uh, to
be able to manage airport folio that way. But then you've also seen kind of the inverse, right, which is rias and companies who have boards feel more comfortable owning securities. And if you can do that with on chain assets existing in a security form, I mean case in point we've seen with the great success of the ETF set, like there is demand. So I think, you know, while as these two worlds converge together, it's not really because
it's only one way. I think there is actually opportunity for both off chain and on chain to have kind of opposite interest in moving the other the other way.
Now, you mentioned that this product is permission, how are you vetting the different participants and is it a global market or is it just US based.
So Biddle is a security, so it's issued out of a BBI fund, so it is available globally to qualified purchasers, which is a pretty high barrier, which is basically five million of investible liquid assets. So it is purely an institutional product. But again it's really focused on being a base asset. So if you look in and see some of the ways that it's being used today, it's really
to form the backing of Dow's. It's being used to form some of the backing for other stable coins or stable coin wrappers, or we've seen option strategies kind of collateralized with Biddle. We have some interesting use cases coming up where market makers are are willing to basically allow
Biddle to be collateral for open trading positions. So if you look at like, you know, basis, we love to talk about when it's uh when the market is pumping like it is, but you know, right now, if you were to put on basis, you'd have to do it with a stable point or or cash, right so nonel
bearing instrument. But we're seeing trading firms that are saying, actually, you know what, like I have this total return swap on like, why don't I just collateralize it with biddle And now I've got you know, the incremental yield on top of that. So I think, you know, with with new things in a world that's so used to just put it out there, let it go whatever, and see see what happens. Things will will move slowly, but we're seeing a lot more use cases start to get built
out as exchanges are more willing to accept it as collateral. Uh, market makers are starting to you know, quote other coins against it, and we'll see you know, greater adoption and ultimately, hopefully, you know, through through our s tokens, we'll get the DeFi world a bit more connected and people will realize, don't do things with stable Quinn's, you can do them with with biddle.
Mm hmmm. So I know the question is going to come up because we've seen exploits and hacks and DeFi and so forth, and I know version one point zero of anything is not perfect and is need for further iterations. So talk to talk to us a bit about security and how obviously you mentioned its permission. So it's not like open to everybody. But at the same time, how are you guys approaching security?
Yeah, so a couple couple comments there. One I think is, you know a lot of people, especially from the crypt native side, like to kind of riff on you know, securities and the friction that that they provide. But there is you know, one interesting element of uh of a security is that if it's stolen, whether it's a digital security or a security, it actually can be reissued. So assets like you know, certainly bitcoin and ethereum, if it's
stolen in a hack, it's gone right. If Biddle is hacked or or stolen, we actually have the legal ability through our transfer agent if there's demonstrable evidence that that's occurred, to be able to burn that token and reissue it. So, you know, in some cases you can kind of argue that unless you're a very large player in in the tether or a circle world, you know, convincing them to burn and reissue stable coins is often a big, a big,
a tall order. That is kind of a built in feature for for all of the securities that that reissue.
So I know Biddle initially was launched on ethereum, and I think there's expansion to other blockchains. Uh, with regards to the S tokens and so forth, is it all primarily based on etherorem No.
Actually so, I think we've signed seven seven integration agreement siety. I don't know which ones are public, so I'll I'll just point you to probably DeFi Lama to check that out. But yeah, so this is again we we are chained agnostic, we are asset manager agnostic. We view ourselves more as kind of an infrastructure provider, both on the security side
and also on kind of this S token concept. And so yes, those those vaults are live today on Polygon, Avax and Ethereum, and they'll follow for the rest of the assets that are issued or will be issued in the future, and we'll be available on all of our partners chains.
Question about I think you may have answered this earlier about the burning future. So let's say a blockchain for whatever reason, you know, not everything is going to be a winner and not there's not going to be a million blockchains out there. But let's say some of them that aren't being issued on they start to fail, and those blockchains and those projects start to die. What happens to the respective tokenized shares or tokens that are on those respective blockchains.
So there's a process.
So you know, I don't know how many chains there are out there, but there's seven that were integrated with and that is a very very small, very small minority of chains. So there is a lot of diligence that goes into the sustainability, the security, and kind of the growth potential for the partners that we have integrated with.
And the issuer sometimes also has the ability to say we don't want to go onto this chain, or you know, we only want to be on this chain, right, So there's a lot of diligence that's on our part as transfer agent and broken dealer, but then also the issuer
as well. So but it is important to remember that these are securities, whether they're natively issued like Biddle is, meaning that there is no other way to own the Biddle fund than the token or scope for instance, which exists in a master fund but has I think a two hundred thousand dollars minimum investment. Regardless of the form,
it's still into security. So if the blockchain were to fail, there's still a legal obligation that you are the owner of that security regardless of whether the blockchain is operational or not, and you have a legal entitlement to your shares, and so there is not a risk from that perspective in terms of we woke up tomorrow and XIV chain just wasn't producing blocks. It doesn't mean that you're not
getting your security or it's lost. They're you know are We call it the DS protocol is basically our infrastructure layer that indexes on chain activity and then converts it back into the binary data that were required for regulatory purposes. And so it's really that regulatory master security file that's the ultimate record for what's happening.
Back in twenty twenty three, Larry Fink says has said the future of finance is tokenization, or if you say, well, he said tokenization is the future of finance. Get the quote right. So with tokenized assets in Wall Street and Tradify being able to access this and participate and build on these different blockchains, you guys are helping to facilitate this. And then you add the DeFi component. Do you see
the future of the markets running this way? Truly? Global market twenty four to seven trading, no opening or closing bill no more holidays, but you got securities and different maybe commodities, and these things tokenize and folks can easily do any type of transaction via defile.
Yeah.
I mean, even if you look if you look at kind of the evolution of you know, trading products from you know, how how did you manage your portfolio of needing to buy individual stocks and then kind of readjust those and then you look to like the efficiency of that mutual funds brought right, and then ETFs and the huge expansion again because people enjoy the experience, it's easier, there's some tax advantages, but we still have this core friction even in trad five between the rails that move
dollars and securities, right, or commodities or whatever else, right, I mean, And I just tried to move some some equities from one of my brokerages account to another one and it took a week. I had three phone calls, Like you would think these things would be easy, and
that's just moving a security, right. But ultimately, what the blockchain provides, and I think it is a natural evolution that Larry does talk about, is being able to have cash and assets on the same ledger, and that's a that's a huge unlock.
It's probably it. You know.
My my cynical view would be it is certainly not good news to banks and intermediaries who make a lot of money on delaying your wires and settlement of funds.
But I very much do. I very much do.
Firstly because it is a better user experience and it's less error prone, and those two things are quite important when you look at kind of the scale and and real dollars associated with those markets. And I think fortunately, you know, the asset managers like like Blackrock, have had a lot more flexibility and kind of the the way they're regulated versus banks, at least in this you know,
last administration. So I think that's been great news. And and you know, hopefully some of the other guidance from MOCC and and some of the other regulatory agencies will start to open this up where banks will also start to participate and not just have their you know, internal ledger operate on the blockchain, but be able to use distributed versions.
Yeah, that makes sense. And you know, as you're saying that, I was thinking about the question that came to mind was why is black Rock the leader in interkenization right now? As far as TRADIFI and ETFs, and I realized that the you know, the the the question or answer was, well, they're not a bank, They're just an ascid manager. Because I was wondering, why is JP Morgan or Goldman Sachs not the leaders here? And then and then you know,
later on we heard about SAB one two one. These banks actually can custody crypto and touch it directly, even though they may have some trading desks and do some different things with futures and so forth. So it's interesting. So you think that, you know, as we head into the new year and regulations come in, I get more clarity, a more favorable environment, these banks will jump in.
Yeah.
I mean even you know, back in my blockchain days when we would talk uh talk with banks, and you know, silver Beate had a facility where you silver clatalize you could borrow against bitcoin, and there were other banks as well that kind of ran that through through their their
commodity commodity division and had a side pool. But ultimately, the I think the big unlock or rather blocker, has been the occ guidance on banks doing anything with public blockchains, and that has kind of forced them into kind of the the Onyx model of Okay, this is the private
blockchain and we're clearing our own transactions. I don't you know, I don't think there's a ton of utility for you know why I have a blockchain If it's essentially your excel, you know, it's it's the same, it's it's the same kind of kind of dynamic there, especially as it relates to interoperability and and for me, that's kind of the the really exciting thing for me about about crypto is the ability for someone to spin up a project tomorrow and iterate at scale and you know, see see where
things go versus kind of the legacy traditional model, which is all right, you have to go raise a bunch of capital, convince a bunch of people, and the scale of iteration, or rather the frequency of iteration can really only be achieved once you have scalem Yeah.
Great point.
So what's on your romat for I know twenty twenty four is wrapping up, but anything you want to share for twenty twenty five.
Sure, So you know, Phase one of s token is underway. We launched about three weeks ago. We have started to crawl before we walk and certainly before before we run, and we'll start to open up a bunch more features both on the assets that are supported the platforms where you can use S tokens as well as the assets that you can mintion with S token. So I think the first next step for us as it relates to two S tokens will be self mint where any holder
of bid ole can mint their own S tokens. And as we add kind of more venues that will accept them for different use cases, whether it's collateral as as an asset on a on a dex, whether it's a c DP platform to to borrow you know, whatever other asset you you would like, we'll start to add more functionality there. And that's you know, that's that's quite a big lift for us, at least for for the first kind of expansion phase. And then the the phase that will follow from that will will be support for.
Variable MAB assets.
So if you think about the biddle, it's it's stable value. So it's one dollar, right, And when we talked to kind of the beginning of the show, we said, there's a stable value component and for a stable value security, that's one right. And if you look at like a scope, which is variable yield. The price appreciates or you know, declines based on the performance of the underlying investments. So for that the vaults need to be shifted a little
bit to accommodate that. But that I think is a really exciting unlock because I think it has a lot more utility for leverage and composibility in a way that even in traditional markets, if I owned ten million dollars of I don't know, pick XYB credit fund and or
maybe not credit fund. Let's let's say something just a little less liquid, like a private equity fund, right and even if I'm in maybe year four of that, there's not a bank that's going to go and do the diligence to underwrite and advance against a small position like that. But one of the great things about DeFi or kind of crypto writ large is it's not that asked to lend against that private equity I liquid private equity fund.
It's not a one off, right like, because it's atomized and there's a bunch of people with this, you know, with with these stairs, you can really aggregate it into an underwriteable asset that then becomes interesting rather than kind of like needing to go find who owns it and see if there's a consortium to put together. So those are those are the two things that I'm most excited for is one is self mint and two is support for variable mav securneys.
That's awesome, very exciting stuff. I got some wrap up questions here for you. Sure, first, if you could create your own metaverse, what would theme be.
Ooh, my own metaverse metaverse?
Or would you put your Oculus or Apple pro buses on and go to.
So I I will admit that I broke down and I did buy a Vision pro and and I will say, like it is, it's not an ad for Apple, but the quality is quite fantastic. But I think one of the cool things that I enjoy I enjoy skiing. So probably be something around like really difficult to access ski ski ranges.
Mm hmm.
Rapid fire questions. Favorite food, Favorite food, I'm gonna have to go with steak. There's there actually no, it's eggs. It's one hundred percent eggs.
There's so many ways to make them, it's so easy, super cheap eggs.
Favorite for done well.
You staking eggs, right, you could have the best.
Yeah, there you go, favorite musician or band, Rufus, favorite.
Movie, favorite Mike Cousin, Vinny favorite book, favorite book. It's it's gonna be boring, but it's true. The Ascent of the Ascent of money, Nile ferguson m and.
I think you may have answered this, but when you're not working in securities, what are you doing for fun?
For fun? I live in Miami, so I love, love, love the beach, I love skiing, and I would say I like Barry's Berrie's boot Camp.
Nice read, absolute pleasure, exciting, excited for the future, outdates around s tokens and maybe I'll have to have you back on in the new year. As you know, there's further iterations of this project, but thank you so much for joining me.
Absolutely thanks Tony, and we'll check back in and appreciate the imitation.
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