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dot com link in the description. Welcome to the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward, and with me today is Jacqueline Melanick, who's the co founder of Token Relations. Jacqueline. Great to have you on. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here. Jacqueline, you and I have spoken on the interwebs for a while, yes, because you were a crypto reporter at tech Runch, and you know, we talked about promotions and
different things and what's happening in the industry. But before we get there, I want to find out we learn more about your background. You know, where you're from and what's your professional background. Yeah. So I am originally from Westchester, New York. I live in New York City. Now Westchester is like a suburb outside of the city. And I was a professional journalist up until, you know, last month when I launched Token Relations, and
now I've kind of shifted into that entrepreneur real role. And what made you want to be a reporter in the crypto industry. Yeah, so when I initially graduated from college, I did an internship at Bloomberg and they put me on the oil trading desk. And I knew nothing about oil. I knew nothing about energy. But when you get given an assignment there, you just you're like, of course, I'm happy to do that. And so I
covered oil trading for them. And then when that internship was wrapping up, I went on to cover energy markets for S and P Global, And while I was doing that, I kind of felt like it was a lot of red tape. It was very old schools boring, no offense to people and energy, but it's just like the same major companies are controlling the industry and a lot of the sourcing that I had. None of them really wanted to talk on record or could talk on record. They would genuinely get in trouble
for doing that, and so everything was very like walled gardens. And I was living down in Houston, Texas at the time because that's one of the major energy hubs in the US, and I wanted to move back to New York, that's where I'm originally from. I want to be closer to friends and family, and they have an office here, and they basically said no.
So I started looking for new opportunities. And I was between one covering asset management at a very big traditional media organization or another one covering crypto at what was a small startup at the time called BlockWorks. And I spoke to my mentors of my life, people that you know, I looked up to went to for career advice, and almost everyone told me not to take the crypto job. They're like, what if bitcoin goes to zero? And I was like, what if? You know, but at the time, I
was younger and I didn't have any like extreme financial ties. You know, I'm not married, I don't have kids. The worst that would happened would be that I would have to like pay my rent if you know, bitcoin actually did go to zero, which of course we know it's not going to
zero. And so I really found crypta to be super interesting. I love the team at BlockWorks and I wanted to go for it, and so I was there for about nine months and then I got poached by tech Crunch and I was there for about two years or so, and now I'm starting my
own company. Yeah, that's exciting. Before we get to your company, I'm very curious as to when things clicked for you around bitcoin, because you may hear about it, you may work in the industry, but have you had your aha moment like, oh, Okay, I get it and now I'm going all in. Yeah. So I first encountered bitcoin specifically when I was in high school. I sent money to buy bitcoin to buy something on the Internet and that would have definitely been worth a lot more today than the
item I bought at the time. And yeah, I was always interested by it. I heard about it through college. Throughout college, and you know, I had friends who were constantly dabbling and crypto trading specifically, and I knew about the industry, but I never knew how vast and deep it was until I really became a crypto reporter. And it was like the world's steepest learning curve. But once you like get up that curve, you're fine.
And so I spent like the first three months at BlockWorks like diving deep into every piece of like white papers, podcasts, research reports, etc. That I could get my hands on, just to really understand the space a lot better. And for me, that AHA moment wasn't like one specific thing, but it was like a culmination of events. Talking to founders innovators in the space who are genuinely building for the betterment of society and seeing and using this
technology firsthand. There were just a ton of aha moments, which I think is special. That's awesome. And as your time as a crypto reporter, was there any crazy stories or anything that you're like man, this is n
was it like FTX anything that. I think the Tara Luna collapse was really crazy because that was actually around the time after the FTX Bahamas event, or it was during it, if I'm remembering correctly, and everything was just it was right after FTX Bahamas actually, and it was kind of like a moment of disbelief. There's a lot of moments of disbelief in this industry where you're
like, is this actually happening? And so with the Tara Luna situation, just seeing the charts plummet and seeing the aftermath of what happened with hedge funds and other companies that were entangled in that mess was just remarkable in very bad ways. And then I think also the FTX situation was another moment where you're like watching it unravel in real time. You're constantly putting out articles and stories of what's happening. Things are always changing, like one tweet could change the
market, and it's every day in crypto. As a cryptoreporter is like completely
different. You never know what you're gonna do. Like sometimes I would tell like my editors like, oh, I'm working on this this week, and then all of a sudden the world would be like, nope, you're actually focusing on this, and you have to like completely shift your gear and look at what's going on and be able to share that information away that educates everyone in the community in a way that they couldn't just access online, you know,
and you also have to make it original, and so that was always a fun but challenging task throughout the time I was a reporter. And they're also really rewarding moments of course, like the comeback story of Solana covering that
is always great. The wild, weird, quirky moments in the industry, the winds against the sec those are you know, landmark situations, and or like the spot bitcoin ETF approval another awesome time and we're just sitting here like monitoring filings and like keeping up with everything to be the first one to get that out there. Or even like SBF's uh, you know, guilty verdict
and his sentencing. It might not be exciting for him, but I think a lot of people in the industry wanted that kind of justification, and so those moments are big moments for sure, but uh special nonetheless, Yeah, yeah, and especially like you you makes like you mentioned Twitter like a tweak and move markets. But you know, crypto Twitter in itself is just wild, right memes and dgens and all that. I'm sure it's unlike anything else
in other industries. Yeah, that's actually a really good point because a long time ago, when I first was a crypto reporter, like, you know, about a year into it, someone once told me, like, you're a part of the reporter community, stop acting like you're a part of the crypto community. And I'm like, first of all, I'm just engaging with the community, you know, like I'm not trying to put any bodyas there. I'm not trying to act a certain way. I'm just having fun with
it. And I also feel like being a crypto reporter is very different than being any other form of reporter, and you have to be passionate about the industry. You have to be interested in, like curious. You can't just be a passive reporter. Like political reporters. They cover things solely as facts. They're not engaging directly with the technology that politics are built upon. You know, maybe they'll like work with the surveys or something like that, but
it's not the same. Whereas in crypto you really do have to test these things out to fully understand it. And if you're not testing it out and you're not engaging with people in the space and understanding like the crypto culture and everything else in between, you're not going to do as good of a job as someone else who does. And there are reporters out there in crypto, you know, who don't care about this industry. They just see it as
a paycheck or you know, they're fully skeptical. They don't like it at all. They don't see any value and you could see that in their writing and the way they look at this. And for me, like I always felt like I, yes, I was a part of the reporter community one hundred percent, but I was also a part of the crypto community, and I think that was extremely valuable in the way that I covered things. I built professional relationships, and I got to know the industry in such a better
light because of how passionate I was about this technology. Yeah, that's awesome, and that's such a great point. And I think you can talk about something if you've experienced it and you know, did some testing way to trial and error, you know, can you give a full review of bitcoin or other blockchains, if you haven't moved a bitcoin, if you haven't experienced a wallet set up and seed phrases and all that. So great points. Now, I think it's a good segue into token relations. Tell us about token
relations what's your mission and how did it come about? Yeah, so token relations, Like at a base level, it's we're trying to be all in one service provider that aims to connect blockchains, token projects, and crypto protocols with their ecosystems, people who have a financial stake in their organization or have a general interest through direct communication. Of course, there are avenues like Twitter,
Discord, Telegram, et cetera that exist today. We're not trying to replace that, but we see those as one to many and a lot of times, like if someone tweets something out, you'll give it a like, but you don't really understand, like what XYZ upgrade really means, or if someone says they're announcing a launch of something, what does that really mean for
you as an ecosystem player? And so we're trying to build smarter relationships and connections between these blockchains and other partners to connect with their ecosystems across the board. We've partnered with Optimism, Avalanche and Aptos publicly, and we're rolling out more partnerships in the coming weeks and months. And we're not pr media marketing, et cetera. We like to refer to it as like a third bucket, where like the public markets have shareholders, letters, earnings, et cetera.
And they've obviously perfected that in their own way, but the crypto is very different than the general public market, and we're trying to rebuild that model in a cryptocentric framework that applies to the industry and like fits that ethos and like cultural zeitgeist that I talked about before, and customizing it to fit the needs of our partners. So are you building like a platform or is it more of a service where you're I don't know, amplifying or breaking down some
of the content that's put out in the tweet. But like you said, so many people are like, you know, if they're a tokenholder, what does this mean? Like what does this mean for me? You know, how are you executing the communication? Right? So right now, it's pretty like we're in this V one era I like to call it, and it's like web two mechanics, like we're getting distribution lists. We're building out audiences
on our front. You know, me and POMP have backgrounds and building out audiences and like engaging with communities, and so we're doing it directly through email right now, and that's for the reoccurring newsletters for our launch partners, and then we're going to be rolling out webinars at the end of the month for them. These quarterly webinars and the bi annual reports will come down the line. But we're also building out a tech platform to answer your question, and
so that's something that we see coming in the coming months. We're working with engineers on the back end to build this out and kind of solve what we like to call a data problem, and it's an information problem in the sense that there's so much data out there, but it's not being collected in the
right way. Obviously, as we partner with more and more businesses, it's something that needs to be automated to an extent, but also there's the human side to it, right so we'll have people who could explain what happened and why it matters, But in the automated side of things, we will be able to kind of gather everything that's happening for each of these blockchains or products or protocols, et cetera, and be able to disseminate that information in a
way that makes sense to the ecosystem. Now, I know I'm gonna ask some questions here. I don't know if you can answer them, because I don't want you to give away your secret sauce. So let's say you know you have different demographics in the crypto market, and let's say let's take Cardano just as an example. There's eight to token holders. Now, some may be on crypto Twitter, some may be on YouTube mostly some are like you
know, I prefer newsletters, or some are in a telegram group. You got people all over the place, and as a podcast host, I see that, right, I have to meet them and where they're at. How are you planning to do that? Is it just simply putting together a proper communication to proper information and getting it on those platforms, or is it vice versa where you're aggregating from all those platforms and telling people to come to your
I don't know system or platform that you're working on. If that makes sense, Yeah, I think it's more of the latter. But we're also working with these teams to kind of make this a mutually beneficial thing because it makes sense for them to go reach their audiences and be like, hey, we partnered with this team. We want to access you better, and we want
you to access our information better. Come get it here, and we want it to be all in one kind of service where you don't need to be constantly looking at like Twitter or discorder or the bajillion notifications you get to get access to this information. I think it's a problem that blockchains have where you know, they have so much going on twenty four to seven, and that's
a great problem to have, but it's a problem nonetheless. And imagine how the people in the ecosystem feel, you know, like their full time job isn't, you know, monitoring these blockchains. So maybe for some of them they do that for fun, but they want to be informed and educated and activated, and we find that the best way to do that is by providing everything all in one place, and that's what we're trying to build out here.
I love the idea, and I say that not because here on the podcast, but I've seen I've seen different blockchain projects where developers are complaining token holders that complain we haven't seen anything what it is working on? You know what's going on over there, right. I've seen those questions on crypto Twitter and people commenting on YouTube like this blockchain is dead, there's no activity. But then if you look at some of the stats or a GitHub or whatever,
you see there's activity, but just the communications not there. They're not seeing I think a lot of people correlate some of these activities with price. If the price not's moving up, that means nothing's happening. Or if you know, the company is not great at tweeting out or whatever it is,
Oh, nothing's happening, but they are actually working on things. So I think there's definitely a need there, and I've seen I won't mention which blockchain or community because I don't want to throw anybody on the bus, but I've seen the thing. Those concerns come up in questions like what's happening, what's what's being built? So I think there's definitely a need for your service. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that, and I feel like, you
know, that is kind of what we're trying to fix as well. We want these ecosystems to feel like they have that relationship with the foundations or teams that are building out these blockchains are like we mentioned, and so that's where
the webinars come in. You know, I'll moderate things, we'll talk with them like a casual conversation, but it's also giving updates on like maybe something that happened like two months ago that really never got followed up with or the ecosystem doesn't know much about, and then also opening up the floor for Q and A for the exact reason that you mentioned that these people want answers, and not in a way to like attack them, but genuine curiosity to get
updates that maybe they wouldn't be getting otherwise. Absolutely, And I think the other aspect is, look, not everyone is on the same technical level, and sometimes the language being used by you know, the foundations or whatever it is can be complex. Even myself we've been here since twenty sixteen. I'm like, what does this mean? I need to go take some time to read through this. But that can be broken down to layman's terms and communicate
it even if it's an infographic, right or something just visual. Oh, I get it that this does this and this versus Here's a tweet that says we're making this upgrade and it does this, but I don't know what that language means, and I can't imagine you know, newbies coming in who are token holders trying to understand this stuff. Yeah, I mean that is exactly where my journalistic experience comes in. I make everything that is technical understandable in
a non technical way. And that's not to say like the developers who are reading these updates feel like it's so dumb down and watered down, but it's just meeting everyone where they're at in a way that either if they're already you know, technical and they already understand this, that they could gain something new, and then if they're not technical and they don't understand it at all,
they're gaining a lot. And it kind of goes down to that like segmentation part where in the future developers can get more technical upgrades or updates and understand like what's going on and how they could get involved, et cetera, and what's like new that they need to understand in a way that meets them where they're at. And then we could also do it in the non technical way
for the broader audience. And that applies to you know, anyone from token holders to institutions who were watching, to vcs too, maybe even like I don't know, I don't want to say it, but regulators, you know, so they could understand better like what's happening there. So how did you and Pomp meet? And how how did this idea come about? What were you guys like like, hey, let's start this, you know, what's
the story behind at Yeah? To backtrack, like ahead of everything, I kind of just told you was I've known Pomp for a number of years. We initially met because I was a reporter and he came to me. I think he just followed me on Twitter one day and like I was like, what is this big account doing following me? You know? And he DMed me and was like, oh, we'd love to catch up and we talk, and then you know, over time he just kind of came to me
with like either professional relationships or like exclusives on companies he was launching. And I've covered him in the past, so we just had this like professional relationship kind of like already established. And then I would say earlier this year, he reached out and asked if I was based in New York and if I wanted to get some coffee, and I was like, sure, let's do
it. I really thought either this was going to be a pitch to cover something or he just wanted to catch up, because that's just like the type of person that he is. And so we went to a coffee shop and we talked for about ninety minutes, and he asked how things were going at
the time. I was at tech Crunch. I was a senior cryptore reporter there, and how things were going there, what I really wanted out of my career, and then this idea he had, and we talked about the idea, which is what token relations like the VV one, so like we're in V one now, but this was like the initial inception of the idea, and we kind of like went back and forth about the idea and I was like, yeah, that's so interesting, So are you asking me to
cover it? And he was like, no, I'm asking you to start a company with me. And I was like, oh, okay, you know, because I didn't want to be presumptuous and like assume that's what he was getting at. But so that changed the conversation a bit and we talked more, and then of course I did my due diligence, spoke to other people who started business was with him, and I mean, I was pretty dead set on doing it. I'm really passionate about what we're building, and
I don't think I would have left my previous role for anything. I got a lot of job offers from other media organizations and they're amazing institutions, but I was just very, very happy with what I was doing at tech Crunch, and so I always said, like, for me to leave tech Crunch to do something, it has to be like an extraordinary offer and opportunity for
me to build something that I'm really interested in. That's awesome. So how does it feel to be Is it a FIR first time entrepreneur first time entrepreneur? Yes, it's definitely different. As someone who constantly interviewed people and spoke to founders all the time, I can definitely emphasize more with them now, and also being on the receiving end of interviewing is very different than interviewing itself, So that was an adjustment. But I think being a first time founder
it's a lot of fun learning the ropes and how to do everything. Obviously, pomp has built a number of companies so it's nice to work with him hand in hand to build this out with him, and I'm just really excited about like what we're going to be doing. Are you guys doing any type of capital raises or anything like that right now? You're just you know, building, heads down building, just heads down building. Obviously, pomp is
an entrepreneur and investor, so he is backing the company. And but we were profitable from day one, so I think we don't necessarily need funds right now, but if we do down the line, he said in the past, we'll do whatever it takes to win, so we'll hold him to that for sure. So what's on your roadmap for remainder to the year. Yeah, so we're hiring, we're building out a team in a conscious way.
I don't want to overscale. I feel like so many times people are like, oh, your team needs to be bigger, or how you're doing this, you know, and like, we just want to do it in a way that makes sense and like fits our kind of like evolution, right, And so we're doing that, and then we're building out the tech platform later this year to further deep in that connection between those entities and their ecosystems and token holders, and we kind of like want to walk before we run,
but also ship products and test out what does and doesn't work with the market
and adjust accordingly. I feel like so many times startups will raise a ton of money and then they'll be building on the back end and then the hype is over or it wasn't a fit that they thought it would be, And we find that building the product and putting it out in the market and receiving market feedback is so valuable, and then you know, we could adjust and tinker it as needed, but just having it out there and like putting iterations
out and kind of improving it over time is like the route that we see as the most makes sense. Yeah, that's that's definitely a smart way to go about it and test the waters and do a lot of trial in there. That's awesome. I'm excited for you guys. And let's talk about the crypto market at large. Obviously you're on the building side of things. Now, what do you think is happening with the market. You know, the bigcoin ets was crazy, incredible run up for bitcoin. Do you foresee more
run up later this year into twenty twenty five. Yeah, listen, I'm not like a perfect market analyst, you know, I spoke to analysts throughout my career. But I think on the front of spot pitcoin ets we saw
a lot of demand initially, which is great. That proved that there was a need for this, and then I think we're almost in like a little bit of a plateau moment where it takes time for these advisors to one understand what spotpitcoin ETFs are, to get them improved internally, and three then educate their user base. I guess it's the simplest way to put it, or
their customers is how I should say it. And so right now we're at this position where I think that kind of segment is happening, and then maybe in a couple months time we'll see it go up more. I think also the conversations around the spot Ethereum ETFs and whether or not those will be delayed
or denied is also up in the air. But right now it's Bitcoin's moment to shine, especially with the spot bitcoin ETFs that were approved back in January, and so it's good that they're not back to back because sometimes when you offer too much, it kind of loses like the special value to it in my opinion, and so I don't think the SEC is looking at it that
way. But I'm looking at it from like a tactical market standpoint, and I think with the spot bitcoin ETFs like there's a lot of value there and obviously based off like JP Morgan and Wells Fargo and Sussequana, like International Group, all these different entities buying a ton of bitcoin through these vehicles proves the market need. Now, the other hot topic is crypto regulations and its impact
on politics and elections. There's so many things happening last week, SAB one two one, the SEC rule repeal, the FIT bill in the House is coming up for a vote in a couple of weeks. What are your thoughts? And uh, you know Donald Trump last week saying I support crypto It's great, right, No, I know, it was definitely like the hot topic on crypto Twitter for sure, And I mean, like the crypto space has a dire need for regulatory clarity. That's on one front, and then
there's also a need for guidance and direction. I've said this before, but I think you know, people who are one issue voters, I think that's fair. You know, it applies across the industry, and if that passion lies with crypto, I think that's totally fair. And I think Donald Trump
he kind of did a one to eighty. I think during his first term he said he didn't really care for crypto, etc. But then in between this term, like last term, and then like his run up for this election, he you know, has a crypt wallet with millions of dollars in crypto in it, and he has his NFT collection and his wife has launched NFT collections, and you know him speaking at mar A Lago saying like, if you're a pro crypto, vote for me. Like Biden doesn't know what
he's talking about. Paraphrasing, of course, but maybe that would be something he would say. And I think there's a lot of value there in understanding that this is like a political tactic, but it's also, you know, a stance on crypto that we haven't really gotten before. I think RFK Junior has put out some stances before, but it isn't really something that is commonly talked about. And the Biden administration has made it pretty clear that they're not
extremely pro crypto. And that's not to say like there aren't Democrats who are pro crypto. I think, you know, in response to that bill, there we were about twenty one who were against it, and they sided with the Republicans on that if referring to like the stable coin one. And I think it's it's hard to navigate in the US right now, and I hear it firsthand from founders and being a founder in space, it's it's unclear.
Instead of regulating the industry through new guidelines that can pertain to this industry, it's been done through an enforcement, which is unfortunate for sure. Yeah, and the thing I was telling people about with Donald Trump, forget about the person from it could have been somebody else. But the fact that a former president and a presidential candidate who is the candidate for the Republicans is saying this is significant. I think it just opens up a whole new door and it
could cause game theory. Well, does that force Biden's hand to now say well, I got a pandur say the crypto industry and get those votes and campaign donations. It's just I don't know. It was like a moment, like a tipping point politically, And once again it's not Donald Trump per se, just that seat that position that you know that he's saying that that's pretty
incredible. No, one hundred percent. I think it's like forty million Americans own crypto something around that number, and it's that's a significant amount of voters. And whether or not, again those people are one issue vote or some people might just own crypto and that's like not their passion, you know. But then there are a fair amount of people who are building crypto companies who were deeply invested in this space that really do see that as their one issue
vote or a weighing factor in a plethora of issues. And whether or not that's something that the Biden administration sees valuable, that's up to them. They could also go against it and maybe gain some votes against people who are anti crypto, you know. So there's a lot of routes that they could go.
And I'm not like a political strategist, so this is beyond you know, my wheelhouse, but just as someone who's watching the market and has covered a lot of regulatory uncertainty in the space, that's how I'm looking at it now. Question for you, you covered like we were talking about before ftx Celsius and Boy twenty two was brew Oh my gosh, yeah, brutal.
But then I feel like black Rock has pushed away the dark, rainy clouds that were over the market, right with these ETFs and all of walltreet Fidelity and all these guys. So it's like we turned a new leaf right where it's like people don't even think about FTX anymore. They don't think about Celsius. It's like it almost like it never happened. So you think we're in the clear here, like maybe we've learned our lessons. The adults in the room, so to speak, are here. I think the crypto industry has
kind of moved on from the FTX situation, Celsius, et cetera. I think crypto was tired of hearing about it. Maybe the creditors aren't because they want their money back, but everyone else is like, enough of SPF, let's just move on. And then I think the mainstream world outside of the
crypto bubble still views the crypto industry as like the FTX collapse. A lot of people at the time when that happened, they didn't even know what it was, but they knew it was bad for the industry, and people were like texting me like, oh, do you work for FTX, And I'm like, no, I don't work for FDx. But like they don't even have an understanding of like the differences, you know, like they think Coinbase,
FTX, all these things are like one thing. And that just shows like people outside of the crypto world really don't know much about what's going on in here, and you can't blame them, like I'm not a professional, and like the electric vehicle world, I don't know why that came to mind, or like AI, you know, but with the people inside the AI
industry, they know like every single detail. And so for crypto I think FTX has kind of been like unfortunately a taint on the industry to the external world, especially for political people who got duped by him and took his donations, and so that's going to take some time to recover. But the crypto industry, you know, has broad and scams, but so does every industry
out there. And I think people always like to point fingers at the crypto space, but we see that in the traditional financial world all the time, and we see it across every industry. It's not just unique to us, and that's just something that is a reminder and there's also really great innovations going on in this space, as long as we kind of like keep building towards that roadmap and focusing towards the future of like what's good instead of just like
highlighting bad actors for views. I think that's what's more valuable. Well, put, I got some wrap up questions here for you. First, if you could create your own metaverse, what would the theme be. I feel like maybe like a little like beach techno concert, Like you could have it like playing in the background. You could like go in there and hear like your favorite DJs and like the ocean waves and everything. That's like my ideal That would be like my ideal day. So I'm creating my ideal day in
the metaverse. I guess that's that's where I'd go. When you say that, I don't know why. I thought about like the Greek islands like Santorini and Pardia. Yeah, yeah, that sounds about right. I just love the beach and like relaxing, and for sure here the same with me. I love the water, I love being at the beach, so that'd be awesome. Rapid fire questions. Favorite food like Mexican food, Maybe like tacos.
Favorite musician or band. The first one that comes to mind is Kanye West, like old Kanye, but I also like techno like Yellow Claw, Malpi, dom Dala, that side of the World if you if your listeners know those people for sure. Favorite movie, Oh my gosh. I don't really watch movies often, but I don't know a favorite movie. I don't think I have one. If people have good movies, let me know. Favorite book. Favorite crypto book that I've read would be Number Go Up by
Zeke Fox. I thought it was well written and entertaining, but femal. Favorite normal book that I've read recently was Without a Doubt by Serbi Sarna. She is one of the YC partners and it's super interesting, awesome. And when you're not working on token relations, what are you doing for fun? I love going for walks. I live in New York City. I try
to walk everywhere and anywhere, even if it's an hour long walk. And I also like doing yoga, cycling, running that's kind of my fun thing, or going to concerts if I can on the weekends if I have the time now. And yeah, cooking, I like cooking awesome. Jacqueline A. Pleasure, and we'll have to have you back on as things progress with token relations, But thank you so much for joining me. Thanks Tony, I appreciate it.