We came up with the idea that Okay, like if they want to invest, why they're not investing with their own currency, which is pay USD And we felt like, okay, we can use Mesh api to transfer assets from PayPal to like Mesh account and we did that. So that was that was a big deal because it was first time that a big public company investing in
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me today is Bamazezi, who's the CEO and co founder at Mesh. Bam great to have you on. Yeah, thank you for having me. Great to me. Yeah, likewise and Bam, I'm excited to speak with you. Excited to learn about Mesh. We'd love to start with your background, you know, tell us about yourself, where you're from, and what's your professional back. Yeah. Sure, I'm originally Persian get like many other immigrants,
came to this country for higher education. So I was a PhD student like back then when I started my kind of life in the US and uh uh, and then I started my first company, sold it, and then I enjoyed what they what I've done, I'm continue doing that. I'm I call myself serial entrepreneur. But I've heard that that means a series of failure, but it's a back up honor. Yeah, I mean that's awesome. And you know the fact that you built a company and then sold it.
I think it's called no password, is that right, that's correct? And you know what was I guess your first encounter with bitcoin and crypto and what was your amlement? Was that, like after no Password? You know, where was that in the timeline? Sure? Uh yes, I mean like it was definitely, uh exactly around the same time that I started No Password.
Uh. I like, because of my background and coming coming from a country that was famous for like general trading historically, you're like part of the like old like Emperor basically the trading platform or like we had this stock exchange back then, uh in in in Iran or Persia as as an as a country or continent back then. And and I like, and my dad was a businessman, so I was like always eager to learn more about the business aspect of things, but I was like more into coding and being an engineer
and then building stuff. Uh So the combination of those two kind of help me to be who I am today. Definitely, When like when you're coming from that background, when you're hearing something new about like generally speaking about money, which was bitcoin back then, like a peer two peer payment in a decentralized way, it was quite interesting. So I remember doing some research online
to understand what bitcoin is. Back then, we just had one cryptocurrency, which was bitcoin, and then like I opened the first link, it was like, okay, this website is seized by the government, And I opened the second website. It was about dealing drugs and doing some illicit activity, and I was on a visa in the US, so I didn't want to do anything with it. So I went through that phase of exploration and maybe like being a little bit pessimist about the future. But the more I studied
about that, I learned. I learned a lot. But I can maybe click a double click on the no password piece and I can connect the dots for you and your audience at no password without like knowing anything about what I'm going to do. Ten years after that, we did a lot of things
around PKI or public che infrastructure. As you may know, the entire crypto is based on blockchain, which is a PKI type technology that basically when I learned more about crypto and I learned about the relationship between crypto and PKI, because of my background, my expertise and security, it was really not that hard to kind of figure out what we want to do next. But there are other interesting stuff that happened no password that is correlated to what we're doing
at MESH. No password mission was very simple. We wanted to bring secure authentication or we call it friction list biometric authentication without like compromising the security. So if you dig a little bit deeper, what we were solving was back then that like all the security company was, like security tech was a hot tech like AI now today in Silicon Valley ten years ago, so everybody was
talking about additional factor of authentication. They wanted to add basically your inter password, you enter your text message or OTP or TOTP, and on top of that you prove like you own some sort of a device. They call it what you know, what you have, what you are, which is the biometric aspect of it. And I felt like this is a little bit too
much of friction for an end users from experience perspective. So without like no password, like a password less authentication could solve that without like compromising the security. Now, if you look at Krypto today, you're kind of solving the same problem. Everybody is talking about the upside of crypto, but little we're hearing about how we can make it so user friendly that is no brainer for
everyday people to use it. You still need to be one of like either a tech pro or crypto pro to be able to kind of own piece of crypto and if you want to transfer it, if you want to pay for things, you want to use it on a daily basis gopless, there is no easy way to do that as of today. So we are like tackling that experience problem in an industry that has a lot of upside, but nobody has figured out how we can make the experience as simple as possible for everyday
people. So from that perspective, you're kind of doing continuing doing the same thing that we were doing No Password, and I can I can give you a little bit more background No Password we had like more than two thousand integrations. We're doing kind of the same thing mesh. We're building integrations exchanges and wallets. UH and and No Password got acquired by a big company, a public company back then called log me in UH they acquired themselves by private equity
firm. Now it's a private private company. They are the owner of Last Pass and I think Last Past that's been off recently too. And we were part of the Last Pass and I am UH division and UH. Then then I got out and we started mesh uh and and the rest is history. Wow, pretty incredible. I've used both platforms last pass and of course locked me in. I'm sure a lot of people have. So pretty incredible that you know the technology you built, uh, you know as part of that
holy ecosystem and so forth. So Mesh, you know, it's enabling easier crypto deposits, payments on ramping and so forth. Tell us a bit more about that. And the connections is it with exchanges, wallets and so forth? Tell us about the logistics. Yeah, so I wish that you were like so smart that that was like our idea day one. But as you know, we're like almost a five years old company, so initially we're not this company that you are seeing now. Even the name of the company was
not Mesh. So we initially it started as a B two C application. And you can compare us to Eli and that they did the same thing. They were a B two C app and then they pivoted to a B two B application. So the B two C app that we had was like modern version of Mint. You could connect your robinhood, your coinbase, and manage
everything in one place. And and we wanted to do better than what plaid Or was offering back then in terms of like not just reading information end of the day, especially when you're talking about crypto and equities, you want to get the pricing and the holding like in every second, right, especially when there is a big change in price upward or downward. People like checking their portfolio constantly, you can just tell them like come back end of the day.
So we wanted to make that a more immersive real time experience that you could read information in real time, and not only that, you could be able to trade and also transfer access from one place or another, rebalance your portfolio, things in that nature. So you felt like, okay, if you want to do that, you have to build your own integrations. There
is no product out there off the shelf that provides those functionalities. So we started doing that and then and then like our usage can skyrocketed, but it was all free users. You couldn't monitize it. And twenty twenty two happened and then like it was not easy anymore to raise money on just based on growth metrics, so we had to make money and be post revenue company to raise our Series A. So we decided to launch this B two B vision that like, Okay, this API is amazing. This is the brain of
what we have built. And this is more in line to our background, which is identity security integrations with different exchanges. Maybe there are some other companies that they want to use that, so let's open that to the world. And we launched it on product hunt, ranked top three that day and landed our first five customers same day, and we felt like, Okay, this is this is that's that's what we need to do. So it was like
some sort of an organic evolvement. But I think our background and ten years of like building what we are building no pass Wild help us to kind of get that conviction faster. Today we have more than hundreds of platforms using mesh Connect API to deliver a better service, better user experience to the end users. And also you're like working with exchanges and wallets and Vibtory platforms to offer this service to the end users. I can talk about some of the market
customers that we have. Probably you have seen our announcement. We had COINDYCX, the largest Indian exchange, rolled out MASHED to sixteen million users. Recently, Metamasks rolled us out to thirty million active multi active users that they have, and then we're like talking with other big names as well at the same time. So you're just at the beginning of you're a series a stage startup
and we have a lot of great announcement coming up. That's awesome. So for the folks listening and who maybe are a bit new to crypto, is this technology you running behind the scenes that they don't even know it's there? Right, Like the integration with matamas and so forth. Is that the gist of the platform that's running behind the scenes and make things more seamless. That's correct. So we are a B to B service, so we work with
platforms that they are working with end users and customers. So the more integrations we have, the more customers we have, the more coverage we will have for the end users. So but even though your B to B it's not all behind the scene like plat like, you have to connect your accounts through us, So there are some user expence experience exponent as well that basically help
users to connect their accounts and move assets faster and easier and better. Right now, if you want to let's say you want to pay like everybody's like adopting crypto. Now you want to pay for your coffee with your assets in your coin base account. Even if like let's say Starbucks or any other coffee shop accept scrypto, there is no way, no easy way for you to
pay for that. So the way it works is you have to scan it your code copy of wall address if it's there him like a good luck you have, like there are hundreds of L two's that you need to pick one, and if you just miss one bit of it, then you lost your fund. And then on top of that, you have like if you're doing everything manually, there would be more rigorous checks by exchanges in terms of like making sure you're sending money to the right people to the right person. We
can streamline the entire process with one click. So if you think about it from end user's perspective, we're just enabling new use cases that was not possible to do previously. Yeah, for sure, and I saw that obviously. We talked about menimass and some many other wallets. You're working with both exchanges as well as self custody wallets, right, So that's great. So you're tackling both sides of the out in regards to the exchanges. Does that include
both decentralized exchanges and centralized exchanges. Yes, So we really don't judge where like users own their assets. We want like if you look at the crypto industry and compare it to the banking industry. So initially banks they were like the best place you could store your assets. You could like it was a safe place that it could store your money, but if you wanted to go
from one state to another, you had to carry your own money. And then banks started like building branches so you could go to another branch and ask for money, and then they would check your account and give you money. And then banks started talking to each other and so you could do like ah wire and payments and things like that in the last like thirty forty years of history. But this kind of happens at the same time history repits itself in
the crypto industry. So in the last fifteen years that crypto was around, we were like the whole industry was focused on building the best in class custudio services that you can hold your assets either in a centralized exchange or on a decentralized self custody wallet like companies like Leisure, Metamasks and so forth, and
without like feeling like your assets are at risk. Now it's time to connect all these lethal islands, and MESH connect would be that connectivity layer that connects all of these isolated islands so we can freely move assets from one place to
another. So that's kind of what Mesh brings to the table. And if you think about it from that perspective, we want inclusivity as much as possible, right, so we want to work with different type of assets, different type of tokens, different type of chains, different type of exchanges and wallets. You really don't care about like what you do as a customer or as a partner. If you have end users and you help people to hold some sort of a valuable asset, you will like to be able to talk to
you and partner with you and work with you for sure. Now you mentioned you know it doesn't matter the assets. So I'm assuming you support the majority of the crypto assets out there, including maybe the top thirty fifty or whatever the exchanges may support, or these wallets. Yeah, so you know that there is eighty twenty rules in this case. It's just like if you have forty tokens and fifteen network that we have. You basically cover ninety nine percent
of the volume. But we're now going to stay there. We're going to add more based on the request, but we have the majority of like top wanted chains and networks. Now you got an investment from PayPal, I believe five million of the p y us the stable coin. Tell us about that fundraising and how it came about with PayPal. Yeah, so that's very interesting. Of course PayPal is very vulish on Krypto. There is definitely a big
sentiment and validation for us as a series a stage startup. A public company with the amount of power and connection comes forward and wants to invest and they really like the idea of what we are doing because we have a product called mesh Pei that could potentially enable like we're not a payment company, but we can enable payment companies like PayPal to offer a better service on the payment side.
And they have launched pay USD or p y u s D last year as well, so they are like super polish on stable coins and payment use case. So we wanted to kind of leverage that in our platform, and then we came up with the idea that Okay, like if they want to invest, why they're not investing with their own currency, which is pay USD And we felt like, okay, we can use Mesh api to transfer assets
from PayPal UH to like Mesh account and we did that. So that was that was a big deal because it was first time that a big public company investing in a state a coin st startups. It broke the news, it brought and brought a lot of attention for us and eyeballs. That was good. But on top of that, we proved that both technologies and products are working. UH you can use that for different type of use cases, and I think that was that was the kind of light bulb moment for many of
our customers and partners as well. Yeah, for sure. Now you mentioned like there was an exchange in India that you guys are working with, so I'm assuming your technology is available globally. Essentially any exchange in any part of the world can essentially use use your solution. Yes, I think one of the things that I mentioned all the time is even if you wanted to do this like ten years ago, even five years ago, we couldn't do that
because crypto maybe it was not mature enough. We didn't have enough coverage across the globe, and API as we have it today was not sure enough. Back then people still like doing screen of scraping and things in that nature to offer functionalities. So I strongly believe that this two global phenomenon API, which is a global language. No matter where you are in the world, you're using the same breast API as the rest of the world and the same as
crypto. Right, so no matter where you are, you can own a piece of bitcoin or any other cryptocurrencies, and no matter what dual location you're in. And then stable coins and government based the stable coins or cryptocurrencies definitely helping that pushing that initiative as well. So this exposure or I would call it coverage that we have on both industry API and crypto helped us to offer this in a global manner. And it was not like us going after well
what companies. They came to us and said, like, that's cool, we can use that as well for this specific use case. As a matter of fact, we had no idea that people can use us for payments, and there was a random company in Latin America that they used us like you could pay for things. Using mesh, you connect your coin base or binance and pay for things and you feel like, Okay, that's that's a very very interesting idea. We want to build a product vertically for payment as well.
So and companies across the globe came for many different use cases and we felt like we can add value no matter where the user are or what use cases they're going after. Yeah, that's amazing. And you know, to your point of like in different markets, in different countries, people are using
PP down different ways. You know, maybe in the United States it's more so the investment vehicle, but maybe in other country is in South America or across the content in Africa, Uh, they needed for payments to bypass the old, outdated legacy payments rails right that are out there and even their their few currencies and the daughter right. So it's fascinating and it's great that you guys are presenting that solution to help. Yes, yeah, definitely we're seeing
more global adoption. Uh. And I think US dollar as a stable currency is something that probably people are taking it for granted. The rest of the world is really not that stable. Because of that, people are more interested in getting like stable coins because they can use it as as as a saving
account. A lot of these emerging crypto markets, people are using like their minus account as a bank account, or the openings account or the coin basico as a bank account to hold the stable coins because it's a hyperinflation market and they don't want to hold like local currencies. And as a result of that, we have like central bank based cryptocurrencies or CBDCs that basically offering the same
services across the globe. And like recently I've heard like there is a there is a digital pound coming up or digital euro coming out coming out soon, and I would not be shocked that the US fat also issues government back cryptocurrency or a stable coin as well. Yeah, it seems all these governments are working on their CBDC and you know, obviously there's a lot of concerns around
that because of privacy and what they can do with it. So hopefully they do it right and at least here in the United States, they you know, align it to the US Constitution. Question about you know, stable coins and how the US dollar being the world reserve currency, people want that US backed stable coin or the US denominated the stable cooin with your partnership with PayPal
and the investment. Are you facilitating the usage of p y u s D. You know, obviously PayPal launched that last year and they're trying to get market penetration and grow. So are you are you facilitating payments in p y u s D. Yes, you're working closely with the PayPal team, and there are many different use cases that we can leverage mention piousd to offer that.
But you're acid class agnostic. Uh, we want we're working with other stable coins as well, because if you're thinking globally, like Pius is not available across the globe as of today, of course because of our close relationship, whatever they are available, that would be our like top choice. So you know, obviously you guys got a lot going on. I'm sure you're wrapping up globally with different exchanges, different wallets. But what else is on
your twenty twenty four roadmap? You know, what can we expect later this year? Yeah? So on the roadmap we have like you're going to be more focused on global expansion. We want to work with all the local exchanges, like an emerging market like Korea, Turkey, Middle East, Africa to be able to offer the services to a mass number of users. We just
launched our product called Mesh Ramp basically no KYC ramp. They can like basically you're bringing your own exchanges and your accounts and we just use our API leverage that to on ramp for like self custody walllets. So if you are a user of Meta mask in Korea and you have already your uppit account and you've done the KYC, you don't have to pay three percent credit card fees or five percent on ramp fees and you can basically on ramp it in a cheaper
way using Mesh solution. So our focus is being able to build partnerships so we can offer that across the globe, not just being focused in the US. And our platform helps our customers to be more compliant, more secure and follow the regulations depending on where they are. We can definitely help them to understand their customers and their customers need better and it helps them hopefully to kind of detect many listed activities that they cannot do that now based on the manual
transfers and deposits, so we can add a lot of value there. So we're focused on three product core products that we have today Mesh Ramp, Deposit and Mesh pay, and launching a product is one thing, like evolving it to like finding is true places that different things. Of course we're going to build many different products this year, but these are like top three focuses for us. Sure, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I forgot to
ask you earlier. But tell us about the security, like how are you what the approach are you taking to security, because I'm sure that's going to be a question that comes up to folks, right, and that is often a question within crypto because we've seen different hacks, exploits and all these things. But what are the steps and guardrails that mash has in place. Yeah, So because of our security background, from day one, we wanted to
make sure that we are offering a zero trust platform for our customers. I want our customers to trust this, but that's not the best way to build a business because you want to show them even without without like even with a zero trust level, they can basically use the service without risking anything. So that's the whole meaning of zero trust like term, and we wanted to offer
that from day one. So to do that, that's very simple. You don't have to store anything, and you have to act as a pass through authentication and instruction layer, so you don't hold any assets, you don't sit in the floor of the fund, you don't custody any assets even for one milli seconds, you don't save any user and impass where access tokens or two FA methods, And we did that in no password, and the name is the name is obvious, and we're doing the same thing and that Mash as
well from day one, So when a customer is using Mesh, they can basically control everything that will be shared with us and they can rest the shore that we don't store anything after the usage as as like, it doesn't change anything from user experience perspective, but it has a lot of security and a
scalability upside that we wanted to leverage from day one. Even though in the industry that we are in, like companies like planuly MX, they're storing a lot of information, which is nothing wrong with it, but there are like multipillion dollar companies and they have a lot of resources that they can deploy that necessarily we don't have. So we chose a more conservative way of doing business. But I'm sure at some point it will pay off for our customers and
ourselves. Yeah. Absolutely, So let's talk about the market, crypto market at large. I would love to get your perspective on how the market has been doing. You know, given that we get the big cooins body t apps approved and crypto seems to be going mainstream right and we had a run up from twenty twenty three until now a little bit of a cool down. What are your thoughts on the performance and what you expect later this year. Yeah, I think we're in the beginning of a massive bull run in crypto.
I think institutions being able to buy spot Bitcoin's that's massive years and what we're seeing is just tip of the iceberg. So we are like in a positive way, I think we can do a lot with that. So now like every pension fund, every family office, they want to own piece of crypto. And as we know, like top cryptos like Bitcoin, Ethereum and Solana, they are very like they have a limited limited supply by the huge
demand. So like that is something that basically helps a lot of crypto companies in this ecosystem to grow and row fast and they become the next big things, like the next you're going to see the next Venmo, the next PayPal, the next Stripe coming out of this boiler on companies that they were like head down building during the winter, like Mesh could be one of them, uh that or like basically those companies are in the heart of the next generation
of cool technology that will be built or expanded during this wor run. The other thing that we're seeing a lot is like on top of like we're seeing like money or the center of crypto or the MECA crypto is going from Silicon Valley to to Singapore to New York to Dubai. We're like all these big hitch funds and family offices and and and financial institutions are there. So that's
a that's a huge sentiment for for crypt as a technology. And the other thing that we're seeing and monitoring the market is a massive shift from centralized exchanges to self custody. So the term that is if it's not your key, it's not your money or your asset. That's something that we're going to see more more development around it, both on the regulation side and also on the technology side. You can see more companies are offering NPC like companies like Fireblocks,
Leisure, Metal Mask, Institutional and many others. And then on the regulation side, I think we will have for the first time you can be like you can leave in a quantum state. You can be a custodian but not a custodian, which was not possible in the traditional term. So if you were a bank or you were not a bank now but we have like
companies like Leiser, Fireblocks that they're just purely ticlogy company. Even though they're offering the technology, it doesn't mean they own assets because of the self custody term or the MPC technology, And I think you can offer a lot of centralized services without being a centralized authority or custodian of the money. So that's that's another thing that we're seeing in the market, and we continue to see
that in the next five to ten years. And then last, but not least, is what we are noticing is the number, the volume and the market cap movement and shake up. What do I mean by that? So if you go back five years, like in twenty eighteen nineteen, stable coins were like ten to fifteen percent of the volume of the market in terms of the number of transactions. That number is now like close to ninety percent after
transactions happened on the chain or stable coins. Now, the market cap of stephal coins are around like ten to fifteen percent now, and we know, like there's always a lag between market cap and the volume and the market cap, right, so we know marketcap will follow the volume at some point. So what we're going to see in the next five to ten years is the
crypto value that's coming from stable coins, not from Bitcoin or ethereum. And nothing nothing bad about those cryptocurrencies, but that's like, that's the fact that
based on what we're seeing in the market. Yeah, that makes sense, And there's certainly been you know, we kind of touched a bit on it earlier, growing demand for stable coins around the globe, and I've spoken to you know, folks at tether tether See and folks at Circle, and it seems like the killer application at least in so far, has been the stable
coins, right. Not not to say there aren't other real world use cases and applications for different cryptocurrencies, but staple coins are big and shows that people really need them, especially around the globe. What are your thoughts, well, sorry, what are your thoughts on tokenization? You know, there's a lot of talks about this, a lot of different block beings working with different institutions. Black rock is tokenizing an etherorem. Larry Fink, CEO of Blackrockets,
said, this is the future of finance. What are your thoughts on that? One hundred percent agree with Larry on that. I think every single asset on the planet will be total. That's going to take some time, but that's going to be the future. And here's the reason, because we realized. It took us like fifty in years to realize that blockchain is the
new cloud. Right, So when like twenty years ago, if people were talking about cloud, everybody was like laughing, like, like, I have to own my own server, I have to have my own identity, I have to have my own like basically audit trails and checking balances and policies to make sure that nobody hacks me. Like what do you mean like I can just host everything, all of my data, I should go to somewhere that
they don't have access to. And you went from that to now everything is kind of run on clouds and people don't have any more cost efficient way to manage that the same thing will happen with blockchain, so it's a global ledger. It has some downside, of course, but we're getting better and better every day. But the upside is you don't have to make it interoperable. It is interoperable by nature. Anybody can have access to that. You can
build your own logic on top of that. You can build your own layer on top of that, if you want to. And everything is democratized, and all the developers know about blockchain, you don't, they don't. There is no learning curve if you're building technology, So you can hire ten developers and from day one they know what they're doing. They don't need to figure out what's your existing systems to be able to build a ledger system or interoperability
for you. So that's why if you're thinking about holding an assets or transferring assets, both of these two are already democratized by blockchain. Why should you build your own ledger system anymore? Why should you build your own accounting system anymore? Why? Like, like you can get that for free, Like there is no reason to build that. You can safeguard it, you can make it more secure, it can make it less accessible if you want to.
And as a result of that, from economic perspective, it doesn't make sense to not tokenize an asset. Like you can sell a fraction of wine now if it's tokenized, you cannot do that with a physical asset if it's not. So what we have seen on NFT was just a proof of concept, and I know there are a lot of bad players there. There were a lot of bad type of hypes, but that happens in almost every single
industry. Doesn't mean the tool itself it's a bad tool. And what NFT has proven that this could be the future of asset management, and that's why I believe and I agree with Larry on that part. Yeah for sure too. You know. With that said, and as tokenization becomes more prominent throughout the globe, and whether it be real estate, bonds, stocks, whatever
it is, is tokenized on a blockchain. And let's say some of these crypto exchanges can hold those said assets, right because it's fractionalized, they can offer some of it, people can invest in it and hold the tokens, and it's minted on the rails the blockchains that you already support and are already part of these ecosystems like Etheroreum or any of the layer twos on etherorem or avalanche or whatever it is is mesh preparing for that. You can handle those
transactions as well. One hundred percent. We are by nature, You're acid class agnostic by nature, your chain agnostic, broker's agnostic, chronos agnostic, API is API, and no matter what type, Like if we were a custodian, that would have been different. But because we're just simply an instruction layer, a connection layer that connect things to each other, we have a
lot of flexibility. And no matter what asset class you want to work with or transfer from place A to place B, we can deliver that to you as long as the source and the destination can support that type of assets for sure. All right, Beam, I got some wrap up questions there for you. First, if you could create your own metaverse, what would the theme be? Where would you go to when you put on your apple heads that are oculus space? I think to space for sure. And I got
some rapid fire questions. First's favorite food? Jesse ask me to say Italians. I say, I love Italian food. I love pizza, but yeah, I'm a vegetarian. Like every time I go out I find Italians or the more like vegetarian friendly option for US favorite musician or band while Republic m HM. Favorite movie A Beautiful Mind John Nash. Oh yeah, that's a good one. Favorite book Flash Boys by Michael Lewis. I also love Guy
Kawasaki and his new book I think remarkable for founders and entrepreneurs. I gotta check that one out. And finally, when you're not working at MASH, what are you doing for fun? Uh? I always work. Yes, sometimes I play poker, so I love poker as well. Awesome, Bam. I love what you guys are doing in MASH, and I would love to have you on as things progress. But thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. The Talk posts, the Talk past,