Welcome back to Think Global Do Justice. I hope that this Tuesday finds you doing well. Welcome to beautiful Tacoma, Washington, where I get the privilege of doing an in-person interview today with a one Mr. Brian Halfordy. Brian, how's it going dude? Good man, good to be here with you. What an honor. Yeah, well, we're honored to have you and honored to also be supported by our friends at Alliance for Children Everywhere. Shout out to our friends also.
based in the Pacific Northwest and doing good work throughout the world. So a shout out to Alliance for Children Everywhere. Thank you guys for supporting the show. Brian, you are the pastor at my church. You're my pastor. I am, I And here you are on the podcast as well. Yeah, I'm your podcaster now. Yeah, yeah, now you're my podcast guest. We are gonna get into some important topics, obviously on Think Global Do Justice.
We are talking about nonprofit work, we're talking about development and justice from a Christian perspective. And there's this thing that always comes about when we are engaging any culture. It could be cross-cultural, it could be right in our own backyard. We inevitably come up against things that we realize are incongruent with what God wants and we want to do something about it.
So I wanted to have Brian on the show today, not just because he's my friend and he's my pastor, but also because we're gonna talk about starting something. And you're a good person because you've started a few things. So Brian, maybe what we could do is start by just having you, start by just introducing yourself to our audience and sharing a little bit of how God led you into ministry. Yeah, well, yeah, you mentioned my name. I'm Brian and we are in Tacoma, you mentioned that too.
My family, my... Candice and I have been married for 20 years and two kiddos, Zoe is 14 and my son Soren who is 11. So that's kind of a glimpse at our family and called into ministry. That was your question, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I think like, man, Like it's funny thinking about like anybody that takes on any job, like an architect or the roles that you have, you know, like usually there's something in young adulthood, you know, that shifts or clicks or whatever.
And that was the case for me. Like I always wanted to be a writer. that's like, found myself always moving towards writing and specifically creative writing. I would, you know, in college I was submitting, you know, stories and poems and stuff to journals. And, and that was something like I wanted to I was just thankful my parents never said there's no money in it. They never were really trying to manage what I majored in. So was like philosophy and English.
when I came to faith, you know, people would affirm me in leadership gifts. and I found myself like coming alive when I was, whether I was studying or teaching or, or, or helping or discipling. And so there's this kind of affirmation of leadership gift, but there was also this desire to kind of think creatively to, put my thoughts down on paper. and those things, you know, came to a head like early on in Candice and his marriage, like. I applied to an MFA program, didn't get accepted.
My wife was studying photography. We were in the East Coast. It was our first year of marriage. I was working at night. You know, she was studying during the day, so we barely saw each other. So it was a tough year for our marriage. Maybe we'd return to something like that. But I, you know, I had a lot of time praying just about like, God, what's going on in my life? Where we going? What's the trajectory? And I had done an internship, but I just didn't think ministry was for me.
And so I just felt like in that time of while I was just wondering about our future and I just felt like God was saying as best as I could tell I'm calling you to like teach and build up.
Which felt like a really freeing thing you know and people have different perspectives on like hearing God's voice like I'm kind of open-handed with it but as much as I could tell like that's what God was calling us to teach and build up but it felt like okay I'm not it's not like a location you have to go here for this amount of time it wasn't like that type of like crystal clear assignment it was this calling to be who God had already made me to be.
And so for me it felt like, right, I want to, like if I'm gonna be taught and if I'm gonna be teaching and building up, I'm gonna put myself in a place where I can be intentionally, for an intentional period of time, be taught and built up. I went to, you know, I went on a, did a masters as a part of that. But eventually, this is a long, hopefully this, yeah. That's all on point. Yeah, so went on eventually towards ministry from that. Seeing that as the direction.
And the pieces of those other pieces of me have very much stayed a part of who I am, which is a cool thing to see how God's not asking you to forget who you are. He's just asking you to be who you are and follow him. That's a good word. Yeah, it's a good word. And from being who we were supposed to be, then we will fulfill the things that he has called us into. So that's really well said. So we're going to dive more into your story. You mentioned writing as well.
course, you aren't just a pastor here at Anchor Church, but also the author of the forthcoming book, Terrible Beauty, which I have read and really enjoyed quite a bit. But before we get more into your story, we do have a question that we ask all of our guests. So why do you think it's important for Christians to not only think about their own family and their own community, but also consider the needs of other people globally? Yeah, I think that.
like the most easiest thing that comes to mind, because there's so many directions you can go with this. I'm sure every guest has like a thousand bullet points that they could, you know, run down.
But like the easiest thing for me would just to say, like you learn more about God when you see more people around the world, cultures, languages, traditions, because like, if we really do bear the image of God, and God is working in different places beyond your neighborhood and beyond your country, you get exposed to more of God. Yeah. Right? Sure. Just as we step into different places. So obviously there are other things. There's the Great Commission window.
There's the... the desire to kind of like resource people that don't have the resources that other places might have. But that's the thing that comes to mind like first is this sense of seeing more of who God is. That's awesome. Yeah, no, really good. And I know from my travels, it's something that, it's probably just intrinsic, I suppose, to taking that opportunity to engage with people that... have other faith expressions, have other contextual theologies even.
And we will inevitably learn more about God. that, I really appreciate that. All right. So one of the reasons I wanted to have you on Brian was, you know, having read, Terrible Beauty recently, and then just kind of being a part of this community. There was, there was a time. So we're recording actually from Anchor Church in Tacoma. There was a time where this was a church and then this wasn't a church and now it's a church again. And you had a role as a church planner within that.
You started something. It has been messy. It's been beautiful. There's been hard times. There's been good times. But something exists, something that is... pursuing God in his kingdom. So that's really kind of why I wanted to have you on. So maybe we can start by you just kind of explaining to us how God brought you to the point of deciding to plant a church. What were the factors around that? Why Tacoma? I would love to just kind of hear how that came about.
Yeah, I think it's a common thing in the young and old Christian world. I wouldn't be cool to plant a church someday, you but it really moves out of concept out of that kind of like late night kind of like, like conversation. Um, but, but I'd been a part of those, like I'd be like, imagine, like, wouldn't it be cool? Sure. Um, and so that was kind of floating around kind of just not really a prayer point, but just like a, like a what if kind of thing, it was in the, it was in my imagination.
Um, and I remember, um, you know, like, you know, it's interesting how, how God, just somebody's vocational journey. So like I was at a place that was fairly comfortable. was a college pastor at an established church. The college ministry was growing, it was thriving.
And there's like so much to celebrate, but you start to... you start to see like when you're in a certain role for a while, like where the limits are, where the ceiling is, where the place is where it's like, because you're in this place, you can't do that thing, right? And at that point, like you have to, like, you have to... get to the point where it's like, do I like the ceiling where it is? Do I like the limitations on where I am at? Or is there another place with a skylight?
Or vaulted ceiling? So I was at that place where I was hitting the ceiling of what I could do, where I was at, even while loving the place that I was at. And it was in that context of discernment and wondering, God, what were you doing? And having kind of that a little bit of imagination of like, Oh, church plant. Yeah. I remember, you know, um, it freaked me out, right? Because, uh, yeah, it's big.
The idea of going out and risking and potentially falling feeling, um, you know, that I was, I got an invitation to consider, um, uh, the idea of planting a church from a building, was like, wow, you don't really get that. Right. Um, and. We spent like months thinking and wondering over it. And you know, I think there were many crucial moments of prayer and conversation with my wife that I'll spare you on. That'll be like the next time I'm on. But there was one time that it's kind of.
It's in my mind as like this pivotal moment. So I would, it's like, you're not, there's no fireworks, you know, like I'm in the backyard working on a sprinkler. Right. And like just sometimes it's the quotidian. It's the commonplace tasks that have this ability to kind of like, like, like, push away the critical cynical thoughts because you're occupied. You're working on something and all of sudden you're more open. don't know. So, so I'm there, I'm working on a sprinkled wine.
I'm like, and I'm just kind of putzing around, of course, forget five things from the garage. I have to go back and then blah, blah. One of those things. And I just, and I was, had this on my mind, this idea of like, if, right. and I just sensed God saying, like, I'd love like this idea of crafting a beautiful community came to mind, which I believe is something that God just kind of pushed and allowed, you know, brought into my mind, crafting a beautiful community.
And I had been on this healing journey of like working through the wounds, in my own personal life and coming to kind of a greater sense of wholeness and being able to really believe that God did love me, know, not just conceptually, but actually did love me. like, and so I, for me, that idea of crafting a beautiful community was, was connected to like, What if I could pass on what God had passed on to me?
What if through the Holy Spirit what I had received I could be part of it, parting to others and to see people come alive and to find the wholeness and to find healing that the Holy Spirit wants to bring. The Holy Spirit wants to bring to people that know Him yet, that don't know Him and that do know Him. So that was like this moment. It's like that got me excited. There's an opportunity that was compelling. Wow, plant a church with a a building, know?
But that got me really excited and it brought me to this sense of like, gosh, think God might be calling us. Right, yeah, yeah. And from reading your book, when you kind of had that moment of feeling like, that's what this is about, was that before or after that? because I know there was a mentor of yours that kind of approached you about this opportunity. How did those two things kind of like, like the circumstance along with the calling, like how did those two coalesce?
Yeah, so the mentor had reached out to me about that before that, and that was what we were mulling over. Right, okay. So he knew that I was hit in the seat, like he knew that I was wondering about what was next, and I think he knew that I had actually called him. And I don't mention this book, but I called him about other opportunities. Like, Hey, somebody offered me to, you know, to consider this role. What do you think? Right. Or, yeah.
And so he knew that like, um, you know, that, you know, that basically I was looking at others wondering and praying. And so it was that he was like, all right, I want my opportunity, I think to kind of get Brian to do this thing that I want to do. And like, that was what we sat with. And, uh, we had a sabbatical. were prayed through doing the sabbatical and stuff like. So it was really, there was an opportunity that came up with lots of prayer and then it was out there.
What is it about Tacoma that like your, like your context? So, you guys, so, so the church was planted 2018, right? and this was already a building. It was formerly the Tacoma Alliance church met here. So that was a unique thing. A lot of church plants do not start with that, but. it is situated right here in central Tacoma. what about the city kind of compels you? Like the context in which you live? yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think Tacoma is this beautiful city.
And I say that, I think it's easy from the outside to kind of throw some... shade I guess in Tacoma. The aroma of Tacoma. Yeah, mean even though like there's like it's very much not there anymore. Right. But Tacoma for those of you maybe that aren't aren't familiar with the city, it kind of has this sense of kind of like Seattle's little brother, right? Grubby little brother.
Grubby. Well, and sometimes I say like, you know, if Portland, Seattle and Tacoma were brothers, you know, Seattle got an MBA from Stanford and is doing just fine. And, and Portland is, you know, has art shows all up and down the West Coast, you but Tacoma, Tacoma spent a decade in prison and, and like it's out and like totally rehabilitated. It's got a great job and like it's actually selling some, some cool things at the farmer's market.
You know, like, so that's like to But so Tacoma has this interesting, you know, psychographics, you know, is the term. And for me, like as a person who has always wrestled with like being in the shadow, feeling like I'm, you know, like not noticed, but feeling like I've got something to offer. I feel like there's this, there's like, I feel like I see, I think I see some of that. There's something beautiful to kind of like, no, bring out the promise, bring out the god-maideness of this place.
there's the destiny. That's right. Destiny City is the name. So, but there's this, there's this gritty, like beautiful, kind of scrappy. Tacoma that yeah that a lot of cities I'm sure like a lot of Midwest kind of rest belt quote-unquote cities have as well and I think that's it's a compelling mystique.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I agree I love when we moved up here, you know at the time I was working for a nonprofit that had an office in Bellevue and we knew I'm not gonna work for a nonprofit and afford to live in Bellevue But we love the blue collar. Yeah, you know, it's a port city like all of these things kind of add to the character and know, it's also, you know, a very unchurched area as well, as is all of the specific Northwest, you know, area.
So there's tremendous need, you know, and when we think about needs, a lot of our listeners are, you know, engaging in complex issues. So for you, it's planting a church in an area that doesn't have a ton of churches, right? You go to other areas of the country, you throw a rock, you're going to hit a Methodist and a Baptist church at the same time, you know, kind of thing. That's not the case in the greater Seattle, Tacoma area.
so, you know, our listeners are of course engaging in, you know, anti-trafficking work, orphan care, economic development, a lot of those types of things, refugee resettlement. They're engaging in these complex issues and you know, that work is directly related to. you know, how society is experiencing less than what God designed. Right? We are made for more and we step into those places with a desire to make that right, to make things right.
So for you kind of stepping into this context, specifically focused on creating beautiful community, creating a community that is the people of God within the kingdom of God, pursuing God. that's kind of the ideal. How do you balance the realities of kind of addressing some of the injustice or engaging cultures that are misaligned from God's kingdom while also kind of maintaining your own personal, spiritual, relational health? How do you kind of manage that space?
Yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan of church history. feel like... So there's this thread through extrovert history of, and you maybe know about the Vita. contempliva and the vita activa, so the act of life and the contemplative life. And it's in like in the Middle Ages, know, in Catholicism, know, like there's this sense of like, you could do one or the other. Right? Okay. Okay. Interesting. And they all like draw back from Mary and Martha. Like that's the kind of the picture, right?
The act of active, contemplative with Mary. And sometimes, you know, there's the sense of like, you know, if you lived... If you did an act of life for so long, you could eventually rest and recline into the truly better with a contemplative, like you've earned it, you know, kind of thing. But so for me, like, like it's always been, and I think many. Many Jesus followers today without being conscious of it are trying to wed the two. Right.
This sense of kind of like living in the world and living, like engaging in justice and doing the work of evangelists and loving your neighbor while also tending to your soul and living a life of deepening devotion. Right. And, know, obviously many people are, you know, finding themselves out of balance when one happens and the other doesn't. And so, and even heresies, you know, like, like quietism, like I don't need to actually engage in the world because all that matters is the soul, you know?
Or a soulless type of activism. So for me, like I need to dig deep. I dig deep wells in spiritual disciplines, spiritual practices, from that have, that have this kind of history of, of use throughout the church, whether it's something like the typical evangelical quiet time or something like a Ignatius Examen or Lectio Divina. You know, there's these deep wells of kind of drawing from the kind of the some of the language used to be used of the means of grace.
Yeah, it's a means through which God gives us. Yeah parts his grace to us but so that I'm compelled out into the world to advance to proclaim the kingdom of God. You see this in Jesus, right? Jesus is digging deep wells with the Father and he's going out into the world. One of classic examples of that, though there are many in the Gospels, is in Mark chapter 1 where Jesus goes out early, he's praying with the Father, Peter sees him, like, everybody wants you, did see it?
He goes, no, we're going to the next city now. So I think, how do I do it? know, in some ways it's very simple to say, Engage in spiritual practices and love your neighbor and live sacrificially towards the world and and but But it's actually much more difficult to practice because some of us might have a bias towards one or the other. have a bias towards the engaging, the relational space, towards the love of neighbor and the advancing of the kingdom.
And so I have to listen to that contemplative part of who I am. I have to allow myself to sit and to be present with the text and to not be distracted by my phone. that those two things, that's what comes to mind when I hear that question is really, it's like joining Mary and Martha. Yeah, that's good. That's a good word. And I think a lot of our listeners are not dissimilar from that kind of like take action, like that type of orientation.
And one of the things, even with this podcast, the reason, so there's different reasons why we have the name, but one of the reasons is it's think global, do justice. And it's not just like, okay, we're just talking like global issues. It's also think is like an internal thing and then do something, right? Like, do we kind of like balance what God is doing internally? How are we thinking through intentionality and so forth, and then taking action, then enacting justice. So that really...
That really resonates. You one of the things you also mentioned there, I would just love to kind of hear your thoughts. The context in which God has called you, the context in which we live, when we think about living sacrificially, that was something you said a second ago. I was actually talking about this with Venice the other day, who's another pastor here at church. When we think about sacrifice, that is not something very easy. Especially in our culture. It does not come natural.
And in many ways, the context in which we live in is almost, is essentially diametrically opposed to it. Right? So what we were reflecting on was the, one of the overarching narratives and inclinations within the, this society is, consumerism. consumerism is like, I serve me, but sacrifice is like, I serve God and others. How, how, as a pastor, like operating in this space, how do you, like, what, what works to get people to kind of click that?
Like I, I even teaching Sunday school here, it was, it was almost a little sad in a way. This came up literally just this past Sunday. we were talking about anger and just with the third through fifth graders here at church. And we came to this, conversation around forgiveness. And one of the kids just kind of like jokingly, said, yeah, I had this, you know, argument with my little sister and I stood over her and like, was like this, like, like he had conquered her or whatever.
And I said, and I had to say like, Hey, you know, thanks for that example of where your anger led you. But. this is, that's like the way of the world. Like what we do is we seek to serve and we actually lay down our lives for others. But this was the thing, this fifth grader, fourth or fifth grader, was like, wait, so like we have to die? It was just like, kid, like we do. Like we have to die to ourselves.
How do you kind of promote that very unpopular view within this kind of consumeristic society? I had a mentor who's actually my advisor when I was working on my master's. He said the world operates on a rhythm of indulgence and regret, but the church operates on a rhythm of feasting and fasting. So think about, well, indulgence and regret, it is all about escape. I am indulged.
And it's kind of like, you know, like, trying to get away from the headache or you're trying to get away from the thought, know, but Feasting and Fasting is about celebration. And I think, so I think that, that, that the Bible has plenty to say about joy and there's plenty to say about the goodness of creation and plenty to say about enjoying creation. the Sabbath is a time for great joy and rest. And God has plenty of feasts in scripture and instituted.
But fasting is something that isn't as, it doesn't come normal. It doesn't come naturally, you should say. And certainly to us where we have been so formed by a sense of weed to get what gives us pleasure. Right. Right. And I do think, um, you know, um, that I have to watch this myself. think the, I've because I'm a pastor, it doesn't make me immune from this temptation.
Right. So, so I do think, I think I have to, I have to, um, I'm ask, I have to ask myself, what do I need and, how can I serve? Right. And then with that, think the corollary is, and God, what are you calling me to? Right. You know, what do I, what do I truly need? how can I serve and God, what are you calling me to?
Because I've been in cycles in my life where I have been, I push myself to the edge of burnout and into burnout because I haven't asked the question, God, what are you calling me to? Right. And so sometimes our codependencies, are. desired pleas can actually kind of hide underneath Christian service too. And so we're actually not being led by the Spirit, we're being led by our own woundedness towards incessant service that will burn us out.
so I think that there's really, there's this sense of following Jesus, this listening to the Lord, so that we don't fall into kind of a burnout rhythm or also Kind of a consumptive kind like a slothful. Yeah slothful and you know, it's like self-care is all the rage and I think self-care is appropriate but self-care disconnected from the Savior. Right, right. Always lead to dysfunction. Right, right, right. Yeah, no, that's a really good word and a little convicting if I'm honest.
how can it not be? Right, right, yeah, totally, 100%. So we're talking through a lot of kind of like, what is God doing internally? How do we find balance and all of that? One of the scary things around starting something is something that you address within the book. And that is this topic of risk. Risk is scary. Maybe, you know, within the context of understanding, you know, this church that is now in existence here in Tacoma, other endeavors, even writing the book itself.
we can just dive a little bit into that topic of risk. Why is it important? What role does risk play within starting a ministry even? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think when you start something, the risk is to fail.
Yeah, and then you could get into semantic arguments about what is failure but anybody that steps into something that is risking something Would say the failure would be not accomplishing the thing you're setting out to do sure right and so we can get kind of spiritually kind of like Have some fun play with it. We're like, well, you know, like you didn't fail because you learned it's like yeah But you set out to do something and you didn't do it, right?
And so and that doesn't feel good No, it doesn't feel good. And the reason that people don't do it is because the fear of failure, right? Right. And so like I am very familiar with the other. I'm like a pro. I'm so good at it.
And I think because like I mean and you know the story but I when I would my wife and I had been dating for two months you know I flew to South Africa she was studying the Bible there and I proposed to her she said no you know and I was there for a month it was the first day of our trip and total failure. Before Facebook everybody's like emailing me what'd she say what'd she say and And like, then there are plenty of other examples of me just like getting spiritual concussions.
can say, know, and I think that like, it's very easy for failure to teach people to not risk. Right. and so I think you have to become okay. With the worst possible outcome. Yeah. You know, right. Because, you know, like I think become okay with it. And because knowing like, in that situation, worst possible outcome, what is still true? Right. I'm loved by God. Sure. Right. The people that love me that are yoked and connected to me will still be there.
Right. And I retain my gifts and I gain experience. Right. And you have eternal security. Eternal security. You know, it's like we think about some of the people that risked. Yeah. You know, it's like, no, they're literally dead. Like they were killed because of it. You know, Bonhoeffer, the Apostle Peter, like, like go right down the list. You know, totally. But even then we're good.
So I think the thing is, and you know, The reason why risk keeps people from stepping into either fear or failure, keeps people from risk, I should say, is because what's more real? Is it my identity or my perceived competency, my ability to kind of point to something that I did as successful or whatever? If that's more real to you, you will never risk because it's on the line. Right, right.
Yeah, but if what's more real to me is this sense of God's love that that I am loved by my family by my dear my friends that will might prove themselves to be friends through the process, right, you know and that I that experience is a commodity that is hard to purchase right if that if that's more real to me then I can step into this right hundred percent pause for a second Still getting over my cold. So when we're thinking about risk, you know, I kind of want to dive in.
So even around the book specifically, so there's a, first of all, it's a great book. I really enjoyed it. I probably had the added benefit because I know you and I'm a part of this community. A lot of the book is actually, well, the church has been around for over six years now. I joined, I guess a little over two years afterwards or about two years, almost two years after you, after the church was launched.
So it was, I enjoyed it just personally also because it was backstory of the community that I'm, that, that, that I'm home in. But there's a lot in here in terms of like what God is doing in you internally. You're a good writer and you're also a very earnest writer, which I think a lot of people will benefit from. And there's that vulnerability in there, right? Not just in the writing, but also in the creation of something that exists now, right? Like now this is something that exists, right?
That previously did not. So there's risk, there's vulnerability in not just creating something like a book, but also getting it shared with others and exposing yourself to risk, again, risk that it's rejected or that there's apathy around it or what have you. That wasn't my response, but that's always a risk. So how do you kind of navigate that aspect to creating something that wasn't there prior? One of the chapters that is no longer a chapter. And it's changed.
The second chapter used to be called the walled garden. in the ancient world, gardens would be walled because to protect this delicate growing thing from marauders and from animals. so thinking about like in the ancient Near East and the Middle East, there's these beautiful green. It's buzzing with life, but there's walls all around them. So there's something for the light for the owner of it and for who he invites in.
And so early on, get to the answer to your question, like there has to be, early on in any creative venture, there has to be a walled garden where you put the thing that's growing, that's fragile, that will bear fruit, but maybe isn't yet, inside this protective enclosure so that... the unkind voices, the critical thoughts, even from yourself and certainly from others, can't step on the thing that's fragile.
So, this is this process that I've tried to practice and I do it imperfectly because I just want to share everything. The second, guy right? Are you a hard on the sleeve kind of guy? one, am I? Am I? So, I'm surprised I haven't started tearing up already, gushing. So, I have to do this discipline work of like, no, I'm I'm protecting the dream, but I proclaim the vision. when the dream becomes a vision, it's ready to bring outside of the walls. Okay. That's good.
And, and to share and to kind of communicate. so, so there is this, that doesn't protect you from people might disregard it. People, people. People did the same with Jesus, right? And every creative, right? And that's one of the most infuriating things, you know, for those of you who know the art world or the writing world is that some of these, best writers, best artists are discovered after their death.
And similarly with saints, they're always, you know, I'm not a Catholic, but they're always canonized after they're dead. So you just have to be okay with being misunderstood. and abiding in Jesus. But there are these practical things. So like, not gonna bring a dream out into the world. I'm gonna protect the dream in the walled garden and then when it's grown. Mm-hmm. can bring it out and claim it as a vision. That's good Yeah, so dream to vision to then what would be the third one actuality?
yeah, I mean, yeah, right a starting of something No, you're right. You're putting it in. mean, it's like the dream the dream becomes a vision and it becomes it shows up in reality and it never resembles the dream kind of when it shows up in the real world. never is. And so that's, and we, it's easy to laugh.
Like for instance, and I mentioned this in the book too, like there was this moment, like I was like, white subway tiles, you know, like, this church is look so sick, you know, and the original name for it was like Salt and Light. So I'm like, Salt and Light white subway tiles. This is gonna be like this cool, like hip, you know, thing. All these cool kids are gonna, it's like, I mean, yeah, there's cool people that come to anchor, whatever, like every church.
But like, was like, I actually, you have to die to all that stuff. And part of it, for it to become a real thing. For it to actually become something that is real. And so yeah, the vision has to also... It has to be, how can you say, be sanded down or conformed to reality in one way or another. Right. Yeah. As far as the church goes, you know, it's a mix of people, you know, some people have been local here, you know, some people are new believers, some people are transplants like myself.
And that is kind of become the actuality. The book is another thing that you've created. you know, when I think about that, like that, like, That's, that's you, you know, on your computer in the mornings writing for however many hours. and there's a plan and there's a purpose with that. remember, this was years ago. This was like maybe a decade ago. Melissa got me a retreat, to Northern California. And what she said was go and write the book that God wants you to write.
And I had been blogging and I had done all of that, all the things that I don't have time for anymore. But I did enjoy writing. And when I got up there, I said, okay, write a book. And I'm thinking, being a missionary in East Africa, I'm thinking, Katie Davis majors, kisses from Katie, best seller, let's do it, kind of thing. I'll be the guy version in a different country. And as I sat there, and just kind of like prayerfully like, okay, what am I supposed to do?
The thing that came to my mind was who has God called me to? And in that season of my life, God had called me to the Tanzanian people. And there is such a dearth of resources for Tanzanian pastors and most of them only speak Swahili. So for me, as I was kind of sitting in that space, there was this reflection of I need to write for them and it needs to be released in Swahili. So that was kind of our own kind of thing.
there's copies of that book, Teteeni Shauri La Yatima, which is just take up the cause of the fatherless. It's a spiritual commentary and theology book looking at eight different scriptures on orphan care and adoption all in Swahili, right? Okay. So that was my thing. But it was the reflection of, okay, to use kind of your progression, which was really accurate, the dream, the vision, and then actuality.
And it took time to not just write the book, but then to look at, okay, how are we gonna distribute this thing? How are we gonna get this out? Where are we gonna print it? Who's gonna print it? Like, how are we gonna get it into not just Tanzania, but maybe Kenya, know, maybe a little in Uganda kind of thing. So there's all of those pieces. How have you kind of managed that?
Like, getting all the way to that point of like, you know, you have this book, it's gonna speak to a lot of people because of just the content that's in there. But I mean, I feel the same with the podcast. It's like, I'm not famous, but I'm doing it because I love it and God calls me into it. How do you kind of manage that? Pushing it through. Yeah, you know beyond the part that you enjoy which is writing.
Yeah Yeah, so I mean I It has been spiritually formative and ego like destroying Because I mean like the thing is is that the publishing game like a lot of time it kind of it depends on people with platforms, right, you so a lot of the largest Christian publishers, it's hard to get an audience if you don't have 10X or whatever, followers on whatever platform. So by grace, I got an agent, because that's usually the first step.
the project, like, The project was trying to be something that really wasn't at that point. So the vision was muddy. So in part because of that and in part because I don't have a large following, know, we, we got a lot of notes and we got, but by grace, we had two calls because that's like the first step in with the publishers. get a call. Sure. And, and one of those calls, the editor that was like interested in the, in the project.
like, Hey, I think this is really a. what it's trying to be is a book about spiritual formation. That's a of a memoir forward spiritual formation book about just what do do when you face the mess of yourself and how do you follow Jesus when it's hard and confusing and you know, those words didn't find their way into like any of formal title or whatever. that was, and so I felt like dignified by that, felt like this is it really was. And so I rewrote the book.
kind of with that as my marching orders. And then his publishing company didn't take the book. So there's like a lot, but then I, but at least I have like, is what it Like I have real clarity of what it is now. we, at the end of the day, like, and you can ask, we can talk more conversations about the publishing kind of process and all that stuff. But like at the end of the day, I got notes from the traditional houses.
And, And through that editor's counsel that's become a friend now and has actually helped me with the book even after his publisher didn't take it. He just recommended just self-publish this thing. And so there's a humbling in that. There's a, I was gonna say humiliating, but it's not humiliating, it's just humbling. In saying I'm a self-published author because like.
Everybody, like everybody has an uncle with like, it's self published, book nine steps on how to find gold in your backyard or something like that. know, whatever, like the medicine that cures whatever disease, know, by, your aunt, you know? right. so I'm like, gosh, I like the idea of self published is there's like, there's a cringiness to it, you know, and, whether there should be or not there, there is, and so you have to kind of like be okay. This is what it is.
And, and I believe that this message. is important enough to be a medium that I would deem maybe imperfect. Now, some entrepreneur people are like, no, self-publishing is great because for XYZ, that's great. But for me, at that point, and you could call it the flesh or whatever, I wanted the idea of a traditional publisher stamping their sense of authority on the words. And that process of that diligence and the combing through of all the details and thinking about.
distribution, all that kind of stuff. was meaningful to me. But that's not where we ended up. becoming okay with no and go and no, like there's a lot of go, yeah, go do this, no, go do this, no, you know, it was hard. And it definitely had to pull myself away from fixating and ruminating, but it was actually spiritually formative.
Yeah, no it is and it gets back to what we were talking about with the risk, you know because you put yourself out there and it can be We kind of live in a world where we always kind of want to buffer and kind of like say like No, I need to be safe. I can't face, you know any you know rejections challenges, you know, what have you and There's no opportunity for growth if that's the case We grow when we put ourselves out there.
you know, from one self-published author to another, I really appreciated the work and it is in English, so our listeners will be able to listen. So, you know, as we kind of start to think about landing the plane, I don't always get pastors on here, you know, as... you're aware a lot of our listeners are engaged in global justice issues. And I would just kind of seek a pastoral word in a way.
So, you know, there isn't really a way to execute justice without sacrifice, which is something that we were talking about earlier. And part of that sacrifice comes from that impetus of compassion. And compassion means to suffer with or to suffer together. This was something that was said of Jesus, you know, when he would minister. How do you approach that tapping into the suffering or the pain of the city? And how does that kind of compel how you minister?
Yeah, Graham Greene, the novelist, he says, I think this was in his book, Ministry of Fear. He says, it's easy to love humanity. It's hard to love a person. Yeah. You know, and I think that, contemporary applications of kind of like loving idea or whatever, but not the person. And I think that, so I think like, compassion has to meet a face.
You know, you have to like, when in that passage you mentioned about Jesus, like he says, says he had compassion on the crowds because they were like sheep without a shepherd. Right. So he, he, and that's after a series of healings. So he's healed a couple of people, people are swarming around him and he looks at this. of people and he's like, look at how they're looking for something.
So he's actually familiar with this yearning what's happening in their hearts and it's not just like we need to solve X or we need to solve this. It's like there's a tear and there's a faint voice and there's a longing and I think for me when like I think of the people, when I think about this city and I think about names, I think about people that have taken months and sometimes years. for me to earn trust and learn more about their stories.
I think that that, like justice is, as I remember Dr. Walter Brueggemann saying, justice is always the love of the neighbor. And so there's no way to abstract, justice, biblical justice as a concept, it needs to be grounded in love of neighbor. And that. as Jesus talked about, that love of neighbor can be a faraway Samaritan. So, because there is a sense that there's a global nature to the world we in. And so, so I think we have to listen to, we have to, we have to find out what they cry about.
We have to, we have to understand why they're afraid. And we have to... And we have to learn how, what makes them maybe happy and joyful and what they desire. When we understand the fears and the hopes of the people, it's much easier to have compassion and to advocate for them until we do that. we are essentially, I mean, we are, we may have a great thing to tweet, you know, a great thing to post, but we don't really have love.
And so I think that's, it has to be grounded in, and I think I'm sure many of your listeners are. engaging in that practice. Yeah, yeah. No, that's really good. You know, one of the things, I texted you after this sermon, we're recording in January, and last month during Advent, you had shared a sermon and I remember texting you afterwards like, hey, I want to touch on a little bit of that because you had used this term around messianic, messianic ache that you were talking about.
which is something that we experience as we long for the return of Christ. And we experience less than the shalom, you know, until he returns, right? That's just kind of where we're at. You know, I think that there's a lot of people that resonate with that, right? Maybe, you know, before we get to our final question that we ask everyone, could you just share a pastoral encouragement, perhaps?
You know, for those that are living in that tension, you know, and experiencing discouragement within that messianic ache as we long for Christ to return. Yeah. No, I think, it is a, it's a tender thing. And I think that, in that particular teaching, think I was making a universal claim that, that everyone, Jesus or not, carries a messianic ache. And, and there's this temptation to try to resolve it around a current.
or future leader and it always fails and we always put the people on pedestals and pits afterwards. But I think the pastoral word I would offer is that if you are feeling tired, fatigued, eschatological fatigue, the Messianic ache, you are in great company. Because the saints, I use that term again as a Protestant, throughout history have all carried that. And those around the world developing, we're all currently feeling that.
So that's why the first, or what we know as one of the first Christian prayers is Maranatha, which means come Lord, we've been praying it ever since. So I think it actually is a good sign when we see injustice. to find ourselves crying out or not. You know, whether we use that particular word or not, it says to us that our hope is still alive, even if it's a heart, even if it's weepy. And I think that... think that it's actually a way for us to participate in the great cloud of witnesses.
Theologically the church militant, which is us engaged in the work of Jesus, joins with the church triumphant, which sits with in heaven with Jesus as we all cry out for Christ's kingdom to come and its fullness. we, we, any time that we find ourselves unresponsive to injustice, it's a sign that, that actually we've lost that Maranatha cry.
And, and so I just, yeah, I think that's, that's what comes to mind is that we are in good company and the cry of Maranatha is a good indication of the spirit. working within us. think it's what Jesus felt there when he looked at the crowds. Yeah, absolutely. That's a good word, I can't help but think I was... This is the second young church that I've been a part of on the west coast in gritty little cities because I was also part of a church plant in Long Beach back in the day.
And one of the staff there, I remember in a pre-service prayer... I had just been kind of feeling this kind of like heaviness throughout the day and not really sure why. And this theme of Maranatha, this longing for Christ to return, he articulated it in another way, which was, which was also resonated and I think is in the same stream of being homesick. Yeah, of course. You know, like, like just a desire to see, just to be with Christ, like just to be with him and I feel that all the time.
know, like, like I feel that all the time. Like I just long for his kingdom to come along for Christ to return along to be, you know, in the new heaven, new earth with him. Yeah. Well, the, the, the word nostalgia means homesickness. Yeah. And there's a German word, Zang zucht, which, Louis really loved, which is about this kind of this, this longing that, that longing that you're talking about this longing for something that the world cannot offer. Yeah. Yeah. That's where we are.
Well, we do have a final question that we ask everyone, Brian, so you will be no exception. So for someone that is pursuing God's heart for justice in the nations, and even when we think about justice, we're thinking about that power to make things right in a way, right? To make them as God intended. For someone that is pursuing God's heart of justice in the nations, what is one thing that you would recommend that they do?
Well, we've talked about love of neighbor and how justice always has to be grounded in love of neighbor. And those two words are important, love. You have to love your neighbor and neighbor that's another person. So I think I would say that again. I also think that there is no, that it is very difficult to go off. It's very difficult to get burned out. It's very difficult to find some type of drift happening.
So I would just say, especially as many of the listeners are probably more activistically kind of the Martha, I would say to dig wells to grow a life from. Because the more you heal, the more you are intimate with the Lord, the more you can pass that on naturally. And so I think the saints, I think that whether it's anybody throughout church history, they are who they are.
They're admired because they were able to draw life from the Spirit and see that as a source of empowerment towards the world. That's good. That's a good word. Brian. Thanks for being on the show dude. man, so good to be here. Yeah, we will be linking Brian's sub stack and Places where you can follow up with Brian Terrible Beauty will be coming out this year.
Yeah, I assume April probably yeah April Okay, so so just a couple months after the release of this podcast so you guys can be on the lookout for that And yeah, thanks for being on the show dude. And thanks for hosting me in your office at a church that I'm at multiple times a week.
And to our listeners, may Almighty God who created us in his own image grant us grace to fearlessly contend against evil and to make no peace with oppression and that we may reverently use our freedom and employ it in the maintenance of justice in our communities and among the nations to the glory of God's holy name through Jesus Christ our Lord who lives and reigns with the father and the Holy Spirit, one God now and forever. Amen, and we will see you guys on the next episode of Think Global.
Do justice.