Ep115: Embracing Imperfections: Therapists Share Their Human Side with Maureen Clancy

It is sort of my whole philosophy of doing training or consultation or the work that I do , and this is Things you Learn in Therapy , and I am excited about our guest because this is going to be like true things you have learned in therapy sort of moment .

So I have been so excited about this episode since Maureen and I were kind of chatting about it through email and I'm hoping that I don't have sort of a regret moment after I share some of these things with the world , anyway .

Okay , I might need my own therapy with you after this , maureen , as we're going to , yeah , try to be a little bit vulnerable , share the mistakes as a way to maybe help listeners see that you're a therapist if you're a client or a listener who is interested or engaged in therapy . Yeah , we make mistakes too . We're human too .

We do our best to repair , yeah , so we're going to talk about some of those moments in our clinical work and our personal lives , maybe , and so I'm ready for this , I'm ready for this conversation . So Maureen Clancy is back . I always love my time with Maureen . I feel grounded and whole when I'm with you . I just , I just love that . I love that .

So , maureen , introduce yourself to listeners and tell us something fun about you right now .

I'm a licensed clinical social worker in New York and in New Jersey and I work with people who experience childhood trauma , who are also currently going through enormous life changes , and I work in a body-based , somatic way .

I incorporate alternative healing when it's indicated and going to be helpful and I also supervise clinicians on how to hone their chops in the therapy room . And a fun thing about me is that I'm so excited we're recording in the summer and it's really a time for me to notice this pull to really go faster and do all the things .

Pull to really go faster and do all the things but at the same time , be really intentional about sitting in my garden and watching my hummingbird feeder and waiting for the hummingbird to come in for the day and just notice where that hummingbird goes , and it's really a great opportunity for me to slow down and sync back up with my own natural rhythm .

I should be writing , you should all over yourself . I know I definitely should all over myself . I mean , that could be a great lead to like where we're headed Exactly .

You know , and I think even teaching graduate courses I try to infuse that and to you know even the coursework , but I think it's hard to really prepare folks for all of the things that happen in therapy .

You know we put a lot of pressure and I think this is where this whole topic came from is that we tend to put a lot of pressure on ourselves to do everything right quote right , whatever that even you know kind of means in therapy , to be perfect , to not make any mistakes , and that pressure may be the very thing that causes us to make mistakes or make

kind of clinical errors . And I think both of us agree that there aren't enough folks talking about those learning moments that you know veteran or new therapist experience and then what we do about it . You know how do we repair after we've made a mistake .

So you want to like start us off in response to anything I just said , or where do you want to go first ?

sometimes . But it really puts us as therapists in a bind because there is that pressure . We have to do it right , we have to be perfect , we have to have the right intervention at the right time and then sew it all up in a very nice package at 50 minutes or however long you're working in that session and it's whew , it really is hard and it's harmful .

And it illuminated so many of my own issues around money . When I would be like , oh well , I've got to do more , like I would be thinking in session like I have to be doing more because she's paying out of pocket for this session .

I have to be doing more because she's paying out of pocket for this session , and if I don't do enough to make that $40 worth it to her , then I'm not doing my job . And so I lost so much of the in the moment stuff because I was just so concerned that she was going to think what a waste of time .

And so I think about that word harmful that you mentioned earlier that , looking back , I think , man , I'm not sure I want to admit that I was harmful , but I certainly wasn't as good a therapist as I could have been , which may have been harmful .

So it's like , well , I've already dealt with this breakup from my past , already dealt with this grief from my past , but then now , like in the last month , something else has happened and I'm not figuring out how to manage that . If you don't manage your own stuff , it's going to come up Inevitably .

Manage that if you don't manage your own stuff , it's going to come up Inevitably . Your client is going to have the very same issue or a parallel issue that you have . How do you talk about that ? Or how have you experienced that my own stuff is smacking me right in the face in the middle of session ?

And rather than bringing it up , I noticed that I just got so frustrated , more and more frustrated , which is really getting me into that hyper aroused state , and rather than talk about it or even get supervision about it because I thought , oh , I can handle this , I can try to work with this I got this .

There was a moment in a session where I was so activated that I said I think we should stop meeting . I think you need to see someone in person . You're so distracted , we're not getting any work done here , and I look back on that moment in therapy with this client and I was like , wow , you were so hijacked by that part that was frustrated .

What made you think that you couldn't just bring that into the space ? I'm noticing myself getting kind of frustrated with what's happening for you and I'm so curious about what's happening for you . There's something happening between us here and I wonder if it happens in other relationships in your life .

I also wonder why I didn't seek supervision on that until after , when the whole thing blew up and she never came back , and she was right to never come back . That was the worst moment , I think , that I ever had as a therapist .

Yeah , I mean , I just am thinking about how many of us have had an experience similar where , like , something is just and it can be something so simple , even like you're describing like the client is just distracted by lots of things in their house , which is kind of the nature of virtual therapy , when someone is doing therapy from their living room and they

have other people or things at home . You know , when you think about that now is the way you wish you would have handled it , like you just mentioned , like you would just sort of say hey , you know I want to pause here .

I mean , that is , I think our goal for this session is to talk through some things that like , if I would have known then what I know now , this is what I would have done .

. It took months for me to really unpack what happened .

I was so activated but one of the things that I really , you know through supervision and talking with therapist friends , what I understood was that this , it was my stuff , and it went back to my childhood of like not getting enough of my parents' attention and you know , it really was shocking to me that that's where the root of it was , and it was so

humbling like , oh my gosh , I really brought my stuff right in there . I got so activated . How could I have been blindsided by this ? So what I would have done for myself is definitely talk about it in my own therapy , get as much supervision individual and group as I feel like I needed to really get clarity about this and I didn't .

I , you know I can really have this I'm going to do this by myself kind of feeling and that's from childhood too Like I've got this . I'm a middle child , I can figure this out on my own right . Nothing to see here , move on , which is really something , a place for me to grow constantly , to let other people in and get support .

But in that session I would have really paused and said let's stop right here for a moment , let's slow things down . I am curious about something that's happening between us , and then I would have named it as best as I could , even probably saying I feel like I'm pretty clunky in describing what's happening . I can't find the right words , I can't .

I'm not really sure quite what it is , but I want to invite you into that curiosity with me .

But I'm curious how you discern , and I'm even thinking , and I'm saying this out loud , so it's clunky , it's getting clunkier as . I'm saying this out loud but it's like okay , where does that Actually ? This is just my own stuff . This probably isn't how everyone responds to you .

This is just me and my stuff right now , and maybe I should or I shouldn't , call that in versus oh . This probably is a parallel to how a lot of people feel Like are those two different paths , or do you believe that if we're having a reaction , even if it's because of our own things , we should still call it to attention in the room ?

Are you following my path here ?

How much of this is what is happening in other relationships in my client's life ? Yeah that's good . And then from that place , yeah , you can figure out how to bring it into or not . If it's your stuff , then you take care of it in a gentle , loving , healing way , in whatever feels right for you .

But if it's something about the relationships that this client has with other people , crafting a series of interventions , starting with how do I bring this up , is going to be what's most helpful , I think . Okay , I love this .

So here I am , I'm in the middle of the moment , the client , I think for me , similar to what you're saying , we're totally dysregulated .

I can think about several times where it was like I could feel the physical sensation in my body , my like irritation was growing , and maybe in this moment , right , we're on minute 22 of a 50 minute therapy session , and so I don't know whether this is appropriate to bring up now , because it may just be my own thing , because actually it reminds me of , you

know , something that happened between my partner and I last week which is probably a red flag , right , that it's like this is probably my own stuff . What do I do to get through the next 28 minutes ? You know , what do I do in that very moment , or what , what have you done before ? And then I'll share some things that I , that I think about here .

Yeah , and I feel like I didn't have a lot of good tools until I went through sensory motor psychotherapy training and certification process , because it let me know that I can use my body to either downregulate or upregulate my nervous system , and it can happen with the client . And it can happen with the client .

I can say , hey , let's pause for a minute , check in with your body and see if there's a movement your body wants to make . Is it a stretch , is it a yawn ? Or I can say I'm going to stretch my body like this . Let's do an experiment and see what happens when you do this . Is it the same , is it different ?

So you can craft that into an intervention if you want to do it together . But gosh , I remember this one session . About five minutes before the session started , my mom called to tell me that my uncle had died . He was dying of cancer , and I knew I shouldn't have answered the phone , but I did and I was like I've got to go into the session .

I don't know what I'm going to do .

So the entire time I pressed my palms together as hard as I could , because that helped activate larger muscle groups to really keep me grounded in there and at the same time I pressed the balls of my feet into the ground as much as I possibly could , and so it was like a like a pressing and releasing , and pressing and releasing for 50 minutes and it really

helped keep me as much as I could at that moment with this client in that work we were doing together , and so I've often reflected back on that . That was really early into , like my level one , sensory motorcycle therapy training , but I've often reflected back on how effective that was and I really didn't know if it was going to work .

If I need up regulating , if I'm like really kind of falling , slumping or falling asleep you know , getting into that sometimes dissociative field with your client I'll use smell . So I've always got peppermint essential oil . I'm lifting it up right now and this is upregulating for me . This brightens my mood .

So I will take a drop of it and put it on my coaster , which is made out of wool , and the smell automatically makes me sit up a little bit better . So my spine is straighter and that can upregulate me . So I use that .

I've talked about self-disclosure with another guest , michelle Manning , who came on and we did like three different episodes on self-disclosure , and so I think about that clinician who may want to self-disclose in that moment .

I need to pause here , because what you just said sort of is bringing something up in me and how that self-disclosure may trigger in a client this need to protect us or to care for us or to care about us .

And I know I have experienced that where I have shared something that I thought was maybe no big deal or just something that I said in passing , and then it really turned into this whole therapeutic process that I think I triggered , but it wasn't necessarily a part of our treatment plan , right , and so I kind of derailed it a little bit and it was still

something that I could repair . But you know , but I think about this example specifically and I'm not saying that a person should never self-disclose like , hey , I'm feeling dysregulated , I got a phone call before this , or whatever .

I'm not saying never , but I'm saying sometimes we say things , we self-disclose , and then we have that issue of having the client feel responsible for us .

I didn't want to cancel , but I think you know , for me it comes down to is it going to be helpful for this client in particular or is it going to be hurtful ? And I try to keep it between those two poles as simple as I can , because those filters are really helpful for me .

There might be other filters that other people find helpful , but I knew that she would go into that caretaking of me . How are you feeling ? What's going on ? What happened ?

And this had been like a couple of months of watching his demise from this horrible cancer and I hadn't disclosed any of that to any of my clients , even if I had to cancel sessions because I had to do something else .

There are clients that I can't say yeah , I just got this awful news , so I might not be at my best , but I'm here with you right now and let's stay with that , yeah yeah , yeah .

And so I think what I'm hearing us both say is these moments require some pause on our end and some really intentional awareness of what's happening in our body , in our mind , even while this client may be unaware at all to what is happening and they maybe shouldn't be aware , right ?

I think one of the most wonderful things about being a therapist is you're working with someone in relationship and so one of the things that you're providing are those missing experiences , or repairing some of those experiences that were harmful , and so the place that that can happen so much is in the repair .

. I was kind of raised in a sarcastic family . I have a good snark in me and I had a client who I was making sort of an interpretation . I had a client who I was making sort of an interpretation , right , which is what we're taught to do .

They make a statement back to us and it follows along a theme that we notice and I think my specific comment was well , that sounds like someone I know , meaning the client , like they were talking about someone else who was doing that . And I said , well , that sounds like someone I know .

And my client sort of stopped and looked at me and said that hurt , I didn't like that . You said that and I'll tell you it was . I mean , it was early in my career but it was one of the first times that I had a person in session sort of push back right . I mean I had folks that I would check in and be like does that touch you know ?

Does that sound right to you ? And they'd be like no , not really , but this was , like you know , a real reflection back of what you just did was harmful .

You know , and I'll tell you , I remember in that moment being so uncomfortable and having this whole mix of thoughts like oh well , they're so sensitive and being so dramatic to I'm a terrible therapist , I should never do this ever again the whole range of thoughts and feelings , thoughts and feelings .

And then , because I had all of those thoughts and feelings , I was like I am so sorry , so sorry and felt so bad and it turned into this whole big thing . That was clearly so much about me . And then they never came back .

And I look back on that , realizing so many things about the use of sarcasm , about how flippant I was , how my own sort of feelings around a person who sort of pushes back , how that challenged me in a way that was uncomfortable , and then my reaction to that discomfort I messed it all up .

I messed it up so bad , maureen , and I think about that word harmful , right , because that person didn't come back . I made it so uncomfortable for them that they stopped therapy .

And so I think for me it was weeks and weeks and even now right that was , it was at least 16 , 17 years ago , and even now I think back about how I had so many reactions that were so clearly rooted in my own stuff that , you know , I think it's just a constant reminder for me that if we're not continuing to challenge and reflect on our own things ,

we're dangerous as therapists .

And she came to session one time this was recently and she said I have to talk to you about something and I'm really scared to bring it up . And so we talked about that and what does she need to be able to say that ? And we prepared all of that . And she said I don't think you're right .

I don't like when you say that I think that's harmful for people , because talk therapy can be helpful and you're just tossing the baby out with the bathwater . And I said I'm really going to pause on that for a few moments . And so we paused and I had to own that she was right . I do come on really strong about that . And so I said you know what ?

I think you're really helping me to look at something that in the back of my mind , has been there , but it's been quiet , and I really appreciate the courage that it took to say that to me and the risk and I really appreciate you bringing that here and making me aware of how that's affecting you .

And then we paused again and then I said how does it feel for you when I say all of that ? Yeah , and you know , she started crying and she's like that was so hard to say . I've been wanting to say that for a couple of years and she's like that was so hard to say . I've been wanting to say that for a couple of years .

Wow , and I feel like you're really not reactive here , you're not getting triggered , you're really taking in what I'm saying and what you're replying really feels like it's coming from such a genuine place and I noticed a calm sense in my body where I was going back to the body and so she knew I was going to ask . She knew it was coming .

She knew it was coming , yeah , so that's one thing that's happened recently and I'm like more than 20 years in as a therapist .

And I'll be honest , I'm not sure I always do that well . I'm not sure I always do that well . I think it sometimes comes to my own people-pleasing perfectionism . I had another therapist on here that says she's a recovering perfectionist and I feel like I'm in that boat where I kind of never get past this high achieving perfectionistic mentality or whatever .

But I think about some of my reactions to feedback in the past and how how much courage it would take for a person to kind of share critical feedback , even though I'll say with my mouth I want to hear your feedback , but I'm not sure that's always true in terms of the vibe .

And so I think about being really intentional in the therapy room with checking in , being open , with checking in being open , admitting flaws . I just think about how do we intentionally create that culture of being open to critical feedback ? Do you have thoughts on how you do that .

Like do you feel like what you came in to work on is what you're able to focus on in session ? Is Maureen able to hold the space for you in a way that feels good for your whole organism ? Is there something that has happened that Maureen did or Nicole did ?

She's my assistant and she's like the forward facing with clients on scheduling , rescheduling that we did . That didn't feel good to you . Oh , it's good , we would love to know about that , and you can give us as much or little detail as you want . That's incredible .

Yeah , is there something you wish that Maureen would know , but can't say , ooh , that's a good one , yeah . So I read through all of those things and I take it to heart , because we're working in like these silos , right , as therapists . It's just us and the client .

And how can we constantly improve how we're providing that service and holding that space without feedback ?

I do that , obviously , in teaching , right , they do course evaluations at the end of every course , but I don't know that there's a regular practice of doing that for therapists , and I love that you bring up this issue of like it's such a siloed profession and it needs to be because of confidentiality , right .

But then we are holding all of these things and if we're not constantly seeking consultation or supervision in some way , especially if you're in private practice , I just think it's a very slippery slope . When you're holding all those things and you don't , you're on your Island by yourself .

We don't really get a lot of that information in grad school , so that's a whole other thing that I could talk about for days and days . But I think you know there's one thing that provides a natural check-in and that I learned in community mental health early in my career , and that is treatment planning . What are our goals ?

How are we going to know when we're done ? And then that three-month review that happened every single time . Yeah , that's a natural place , even if you're in private practice , to say , okay , we're going to spend some time on this before we dive into the rest of the session . So I always do that .

And then I'll say I want you to know that I welcome what you're experiencing in our work together , because this is a collaboration . We're creating this together . I have my expertise , but you , you're in it , you're feeling it , you're living it .

I don't know about that , and so the two of us have our piece to really bring together here equally , and so I am always putting that into the mix at least three months , sometimes more .

So , anyway , any last thoughts that you wanted to share today and then tell people how they can find you and follow all the work you do on social media , your website , all those things .

I forget what my handle is , but Maureen Clancy , something like that .