You know, I don't want to co-op this whole episode just talking about Vanilyn. Yeah.
But I do think we should brainstorm some different names for it. But I'm gonna I'm gonna say Felicia.
Let's just call her Felicia. From King Arthur Bacon Company, this is Things Bakers Know. I'm Jessica Batalana, King Arthur Staff Editor.
And I'm David Tamarkin, editorial director at King Arthur Bacon.
And today we're talking about vanilla. You know, it's kind of funny because somewhere along the line, vanilla became a descriptor for like a really basic, super boring, kind of ordinary thing or person.
But it's actually Yeah. Not that you've ever not that you've ever used it that way. No, of course not.
It's actually one of the most fascinating, delicious ingredients in the world. And I learned so much researching this that really is kind of mind-blowing.
Yeah. Today we're gonna flip the script on vanilla. And after this episode, you're gonna be using the term vanilla to describe interesting things. Yeah. Like quantum physics, so vanilla, you know? Like the state of the world is so vanilla. Oh my gosh.
I love it. Yeah. We're just gonna we're reimagining. Um, so before we get into talking about like the flavor of vanilla, I think we need to talk about what vanilla is.
Yes. You're gonna give me a lesson. I can feel it. Yeah.
Like this dynamic is really starting to evolve. So vanilla is the seed pod of a vanilla orchid. I mean, which you, if you've ever seen a vanilla bean, you're like, yeah, that tracks. It looks like a withered seed pod. Um and these orchids are, you know, they're a fair weather plant. They only grow in like a really narrow band um around the equator. So, or in, you know, in a greenhouse, right?
But really, their like home base is, you know, right around the equator, including Madagascar, where half of the world's vanilla is produced, which is kind of crazy because Madagascar, not a huge place. Tahiti, um, Mexico, Uganda, there's a very small amount of vanilla produced in Hawaii, in Ecuador. But it's a, you know, like wine or cheese, where the vanilla is grown has an impact on sort of its flavor. So it has terroir. It has terroir. Yes, exactly. What did I say? I just get so nervous.
I know, but I think I can't keep shooting for the fences. You keep putting these foreign words in and trying your best.
I can say them when I'm not on camera.
Yeah, sure.
Which by the way, we're on YouTube and Spotify now. Watch us. Yeah, you're watching mispronounce these words.
I just am imagining in your bathroom mirror every morning, like terroir, biscuti. I can do it. I can do it. But it's also, as we talked about, like very labor intensive to grow vanilla. Like this isn't just like a set it and forget it kind of plant. Um, you need it, you know, you need the right weather. So it's a crop that's like very susceptible to, you know, a warming climate, which is a thing that's happening now.
Vanilla orchids are hermaphroditic, which means that they have both male and female reproductive organs. However, for whatever reason, the vanilla flower is self-sterile. So all of the vanilla orchids in the world have to be hand pollinated. I mean, this is somebody has to go in crazy and pollinate. This is crazy to think about.
I don't, I don't know exactly how it's done. That would be interesting to like drill down more on how things are hand pollinated. But, you know, you start to see like, okay, here we have this plant that only grows in a really narrow band in the world that will not, you know, propagate unless a human intervenes. And that discovery was actually made in the you know 1840s.
So there was an enslaved um, I was gonna say man, but really a child, a 12-year-old, Edmund Albius, and he worked on a plantation on the island of Reunion. But he learned that, you know, they brought these vines to Reunion Island, which is in the Indian Ocean, and they were like, hey, nothing's happening. Like these vines aren't, you know, like they're not propagating. And so he realized that they all had to be hand pollinated. I doubt they gave him a lot of credit for that discovery.
But that's the only way that vanilla's been, you know, able to flourish in places around the world because he discovered that they all have to be hand pollinated.
Yeah. That's sort of a dark origin story.
I mean, so many origin stories are dark origin stories to further complicate things. So, like, here it is, narrow band of the world. Now it has to be hand pollinated. You can only hand pollinate um vanilla bean orchids for like a couple of hours, is the window of pollination.
It's a wit, that's the window for which the pollination will take.
Yes.
Yeah.
So, like, God help you if you're on your lunch break then. Like, forget it. Just like the crop is, and then like adding to all of that, like the you know, the weather things.
So once the flowers are pollinated, then the seeds begin to grow. Yeah. The seeds, and that's what we really think of as the vanilla beans. Yeah, those seed pods. And they sort of look like green beans are about the size of a longish green bean. Um, and they're not like the sticky pods we think of when we think of vanilla or like that we would buy at the grocery store for, you know, from a wholesaler. Before we can use them, those pods have to be cured, yeah, if I'm not mistaken.
Yep. Then dried. Yeah. And that's when they become the black shriveled pods that we know and are obsessed with.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, truly, it is. I mean, so you know, when you think about all that, you're like, well, no wonder like vanilla and vanilla extract, vanilla beans, vanilla extract are really expensive. So right now, I mean, when I last checked, I don't know if it's like how much it varies day to day, but a kilo, so 2.2 pounds of vanilla bean pods, Madagascar grown vanilla bean pods, is gonna run you about 300 bucks.
Yeah. That to be fair, that is a lot of vanilla beans.
Um, and you know, I think a little vanilla does go a long way, like a little real vanilla, but not not as far as you'd think. And so, of course, like now there is a robust secondary vanilla production, which is artificial vanilla. Because true vanilla is so expensive that, you know, given our like worldwide appetite for vanilla and the flavor of vanilla, like we can't keep up. Like, there just simply is not enough true vanilla in the world to satisfy the world's desire.
And I'm glad that we have a separate name for this artificial vanilla. Uh I pronounce it vanillin.
Yeah, that's right.
So uh, and it's what gives, you know, it gives a vanilla-ish flavor and aroma to things. So vanillin is a compound that is found naturally in vanilla beans, but the artificial version, of course, is made in lab. Synthesized from guacole and oil.
There we go again. I'm just setting you up with these words.
Made from petrochemicals.
Ah, petrochemicals.
Yeah. And of course, it's much, much less expensive.
Yes, it's much, much less expensive. I mean, there's some irony here, right? Like vanilla is, as I said at the top of the show, supposed to be like the most basic, boring flavor. Yet our collective desire for things flavored like vanilla is, and also I should say scented like vanilla is so great that it just like vastly outpaces the amount of natural vanilla that we can produce. So I mean, vanilin to the rescue question mark. I don't know.
But I mean, imitation vanilla is the standard for vanilla flavored things that are, you know, sort of mass market products. So, like, you know, vanilla, box mix, birthday cake, vanilla frosting, like anything that you buy, you know, not from a bakery, but from a store that's a sweet thing that has vanilla.
And that's relatively cheap.
Is relative is gonna have vanilin. And I I do sort of have, and I'm not alone in this, like I have a sort of nostalgia for that flavor because I think it is the flavor of, you know, birthday cake. You know, when we talk about birthday cake flavored things, yeah, what we're talking about is a vanilin flavor thing. And I mean, and we we've talked about this in previous episodes, like these things are like engineered to be delicious.
Yeah. Like they capture some of the essence and then, you know, and almost amp it up in this sort of artificial way, but it is kind of compelling.
Yeah. I think vanilin, and you know, artificial vanilla, vanilla essence, whatever you want to call it, has had an interesting journey through in the court of public opinion, if you will. Um and I think it's a generational thing. You know, I think, you know, previous generations to ours, probably like a lot of them, you know, uh didn't want anything to do with vanilin because it was new and yeah, fake.
Yeah.
But our generation and generations after us were really raised on this stuff, so it's very nostalgic for us. And so, you know, I think when Christina Tosi has really led the charge of reclaiming that flavor of vanilin as a specific flavor, uh a nostalgic one, one that is uh where there's no that there's no shame in chasing if you want it. You know, she's really, she's really uh she's really not gone sort of deep in the pocket. She's deep in the pockets of of corporate vanilla.
Uh no, she but but she she really makes a good point. Like if you want that classic birthday cake flavor that you are nostalgic for from your childhood, you need the vanilin. Yeah, you do not want, you know, uh vanilla beans. So it's it's it's an interesting thing, and I and I I and I can appreciate you know the the no-shame vibe of it all. Like there's no shame in it either.
I just wish that it had a different name.
Yeah.
Because I think like vanilin is to vanilla at you know, they're different things. And I don't want to, you know, I don't want to co-opt this whole episode to talk about vanilin.
Yeah, but I do think we should brainstorm some different names for it. But I'm gonna I'm gonna say Felicia.
Let's just call it Felicia. I think it's funny because the last time we brainstormed ideas was for white chocolate, and I don't think we were super successful. You know what?
I think it got cut from the episode.
Oh, did it? Yeah. We had some great names that I'll tell people. What was it that I came up with?
It's probably gonna get cut from this one too.
No matter how many times you say it.
It was um creamy butter chips or something like that.
People never believe from our bad name suggestions that we work with words for a living. They're like, uh, how much workshopping? But anyway, we'll do that later. We'll do that later. We'll do that on our own time. We'll do that on our own time because we have, you know, we're sick with true vanilla, and there are true vanilla we are not alone in thinking like that the vanilla is a really dynamic and interesting flavor.
And today we have one of the country's best bakers, Claire Safetz, um, who is a staunch defender and vanilla enthusiast here to talk to us. So I want to give time for that conversation, and then I want to give time for listener questions. So let's um let's hear your conversation with Claire.
Yeah. Claire Sapffitz probably does not need introduction to most of our audience, but in case you don't know her, she's the author of two cookbooks, Dert Person and What's for Dessert. Uh, she's has a robust YouTube operation. She's out there cooking on YouTube all the time.
She, of course, was one of the famous Bois Appetite crew, and she got, you know, a lot of attention for her series there called Gourmet Makes, which was recreating a lot of mass-produced snacks, a lot of them which use vanalin. Yeah. And of course, she was, you know, remaking them in uh in a gourmet way. Uh when I texted Claire and asked her to come on this episode specifically, I said, This is the right episode for you, right? Like you want to, would you want to talk about vinyl?
And she was like, absolutely. Name a better flavor. Just try, just name one. I was like, whoa, you don't need to don't yell at me. Or if you're gonna yell at me, yell at me on the podcast. Let's record it. Oh, she did. So let's listen. Claire Safit, welcome to Things Bakers Know. It's been such a long time that I've wanted you to be on this podcast, my friend. Um you are one of the world's biggest vanilla fans.
When I texted you and asked what you thought about vanilla, you said, name a better flavor. Just name one, which was very aggressive, I thought, but I could not name one.
Uh-huh. Okay. Well, thank you for having me on. I am very excited to be here. And I am honored to be on the vanilla episode because it is truly one of the great flavors and so unique and special. And I don't know how the word vanilla got associated with something like bland and boring, because it is neither bland nor boring. So I'm very excited to talk about it.
But do you feel like, do you ever taste things that are vanilla, like the cake or whatever you taste a vanilla cupcake, say, and you think to yourself, actually, this is bland and boring. This does not have enough vanilla flavor. Do you think people are using enough vanilla in their baked goods?
I think sometimes the word vanilla is like the default, it's like the default flavor. It's sort of like it doesn't have a flavor. So it gets labeled vanilla, maybe because it has a couple of teaspoons of vanilla extract in it. But I do think if you're gonna market it as vanilla, it should have, it should have a distinct vanilla flavor. And or like maybe you see specks of vanilla bean in it because I I kind of want to see the proof a little bit.
Like if it's a cake, it doesn't just call it a buttercake if it doesn't have a flavor in a sense. Like it doesn't, vanilla should not just be the label that it gets to make it sound like it has something in it. So yeah, I if it's being sold to me as a vanilla something, I want to see it and I want to smell it and I want to taste it for sure.
Can you describe what vanilla tastes like? It's and I think this is a tricky question, but I'm gonna throw it to you anyway. Can you describe it? Like how how would you describe it as somebody who has never had it?
I think it's like you can't define the word with the word. Like I don't know. It is to me sort of indescribable if you can't, if you don't, if you haven't had it. Um, it is very aromatic, even a little bit spicy, but I think it's sort of hard to describe what because it's so singular. It's like it doesn't have a lot in common with a lot of other types of flavors.
But I'm just saying, like I'm just dancing around the idea of what it actually tastes like, which is to say that it just tastes like vanilla. I think it's so hard to describe without saying that it tastes like vanilla.
Yeah, I I mean, I think you did a great job, but I also love that you called out the spiciness and that you called out that it can be aggressive because there have been moments, especially when I bake with vanilla beans, that I feel like I've, oh, I've overdone it. Like it can get very intense. And and it's a strong flavor. It's the opposite of what of what the reputation is, right? It can be very strong and very not vanilla.
Very can I think it could be sort of like a bully of a flavor if you overdo it. What do you think?
Yes, and I think there's also so much variation in quality of vanilla. So one vanilla product compared to another might take taste very, very different, actually. So that's another reason why I think it's difficult to kind of pin it down in a way. Like it can be really spicy, it can be very floral. I think vanilla is one of those things where there's so many flavor compounds going on, you know, from one vanilla to another, or from paste to extract, or from time of year.
Like there's probably so many variations from, you know, Madagascar vanilla to Tahitian vanilla, that kind of thing. But when you have a high-quality vanilla product, like you're using like a nice, soft, juicy, whole vanilla bean, it can be very overpowering. I also think it has that very perfume quality. And it's not just because it is used like literally in perfume and candles and other scents. So it is, like I said before, just it is that very singular aroma and flavor.
It has to be used very carefully and thoughtfully because it can overpower or it can totally disappear. So you have to be sort of conscious of the product that you're using and how strong is it and that kind of thing. It's not just like any vanilla extract or any paste or a vanilla bean.
Yeah, 100%. And, you know, this brings me to one of my questions for you, which was what is your preferred vehicle for vanilla? Is it extract? Is it paste? Is it bean? But also, can you talk a little bit about whether vanilla is the kind of thing where you get what you pay for? I mean, the because you're talking about like all these flavor compounds. How careful do you have to be about the quality of those?
Yes. So my preferred vehicle these days is paste. I love, I love vanilla paste. I think you get it's just like this perfect kind of middle ground where you get it's more, it's stronger and more pungent and effective than extract, but you get the ease of extract, which is just like, and I keep it in a squeeze bottle. I have to say, I tend to be pretty extravagant with my vanilla use. And so, and and part of that is because I keep it in a squeeze bottle.
It's so easy to just like add a couple little shots of it to whatever it is I'm making. So I love it. I think like scraping a vanilla bean, vanilla beans are are it's a little risky for a vanilla bean because they dry out so fast. So, and this kind of um segues into your question about price. I like to buy vanilla beans in bulk, but it's risky because if they dry out, then you're kind of at a loss.
So I just feel like keeping paste is like you get a lot of the benefit of the bean because you have the seeds in there. You get the ease of extract, you get a flavor that's somewhere in the middle in terms of its like potency. So, as far as price, I generally think you get what you pay for, but I do think there's crazy price gouging that happens actually with vanilla. Um, so I would just come, I would just shop around and like compare prices.
I think that there is stuff at the grocery store that's 20 bucks that's really, really expensive, and you can get a better deal elsewhere. And I would definitely consider buying in bulk because you'll get a much better deal. Um, and like an extract if it's stored well, like, you know, there's nothing's gonna happen to it. So also I feel like my mom's favorite place to buy vanilla extract is TJ Maxx. They have it on the shelves.
Uh, I don't know if it's good or not, but I think you can get a deal.
I think TJ Maxx and Home Goods is the premier store for vanilla. I mean, I think you really can't get good vanilla there. I've I that's why I've bought vanilla for so many years. When I lived in Chicago, that I would just stock up on vanilla there. So sometimes you're using paste, sometimes you're using your homemade extract, sometimes you're using beans. What types of recipes do you feel allow vanilla to shine the best?
For me, it's always like the dairy heavy, the simple dairy-heavy recipes, which almost always means custard. So a vanilla ice cream, a flan, a panicotta. To me, dairy is the blank canvas. You know, there's there's certain, like obviously, we know that the flavors in vanilla are soluble in alcohol, but I just feel like they also really come through in dairy. And maybe that's partly because there's some fat-soluble flavor compounds, or just by heating it, you know, it's infusing the dairy.
But that like the way that vanilla bean and seeds infuse the flavor of dairy, like milk or cream, is so special and so delicious. So and and also you're really seeing the seeds when you're work, when you're working with a custard of some kind. So that's where I really use it. I feel like in a cake recipe where you're adding starch, I would just go extract because it's like you have other things that are kind of competing.
But the canvas of just a creamy, delicious recipe is so perfect for vanilla. And that's where I really want it. And that's where I think you really experience the most intense and kind of like clearly articulated flavor from vanilla.
I love that you are talking about the flavor, but also the visuals too. And because that is such a big part of it. I understand you're obsessed with vanilla, you can't get away from vanilla, you dream about vanilla, you you named your child vanilla. Like I get it. But vanilla is also, you're also pairing with vanilla in a lot of ways, right? So um, what is what do you think are the best pairings with vanilla? Great question.
I think you cannot make a chocolate chip cookie without a ton of vanilla. So somewhere along the way in my baking journey, and I don't remember when or where it came from, I learned the idea that to get butterscotch flavor of any kind, you have to combine it's the combination of butter and sugar and vanilla. And it's such an essential like trifecta, these three things combined.
So for a chocolate chip cookie or a blondie, any kind of baked good where you want a butterscotchiness, whether that's from caramel or toffee or, you know, any any combination of these flavors, like you have to have a lot of vanilla, is so essential. So and brown butter, brown butter and vanilla together are just the most magical combination.
Vanilla and citrus zest also is such creates this kind of hybrid, like floral flavor enhancer that is so magical, like orange zest and vanilla together in like a sweet bun or in a cake is it it is in some ways like greater than the sum of its parts. You could do orange zest, lemon zest, and vanilla together. And if you have vanillas, you know, if you have seeds from a bean and you have zest and you massage it into sugar, the perfume that it creates is so, so amazing and powerful.
So those are The times where I think vanilla is so enhancing and it does not get lost. Like all of those things together kind of create a new, even more amazing flavor. And then there's other combinations where I think it can be overpowered or it just gets lost and kind of obscured. And so then I'm gonna maybe throw in like a little bit of um maybe extract just there in the background. Um, I think sometimes chocolate and vanilla, like chocolate is a really strong flavor.
So I think it's not, of course, it's delicious, but it just doesn't work with chocolate in the same way that it works with these other kinds of ingredients. So yeah, citrus and anything like butterscotchy caramelli, definitely.
Claire Savage, thank you so much for being on Things Bakers Now. It was a pleasure to have you here. This will not be the only time we asked you to be on the show, so I hope you'll come again.
Thank you for having me on.
This episode is sponsored by Curio Spice Company, a woman-owned mission-driven spice company.
Curio sources spices directly and ethically from small farms around the world.
They have spice blends and they have single origin spices. I love the blends personally. It makes it so easy. And Jessica, I'm gonna tell you something. I use them in my own kitchen copiously.
Oh yeah? I think I can imagine some of these blends would be great on popcorn, you know?
Absolutely. And it's great. They're great. A lot of them are great on salmon. A lot of them are great on brownies, not the same ones.
Maybe a sprinkle of their cypress flake salt to finish your chocolate chip cookies. I mean, that's always a good idea.
That that's one of sort of universal works on almost everything.
I also appreciate that Curio Spice Company is a certified B Corp like King Arthur, and they meet verified standards for social and environmental business practices. You can find a selection of Curio Spices and Blends at KingArthurBaking.com or the full collection at Curiospice.com. That's C-U-R-I-O-Spice.com. This episode is brought to you by our recipe of the year, Flaky Puff Crust Pizza. That may sound familiar to you.
That's because we did a whole episode on this special recipe back in January. But the pizza is so good, we think you should be baking it all year long. It's like if a pizza and a croissant had a baby, you would have You're just showing off with your pronunciations now. Bonjour hi. So flaky, so crispy, so delicious. And also, critically, it can be made in under two hours.
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Turns out and feeds a crowd, which I think is really nice. You can find the recipe by searching Flaky Puff Crust Pizza on our website. We also have a video showing you how to make flaky puff crust pizza. Say that ten times fast on our YouTube channel.
It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers. For Ask the Bakers, we want to hear from you. If you have a burning question for us, head to KingArthurbaking.com slash podcast to record a question, and we may end up using it on the show. That's KingArthurbaking.comslash podcast.
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Let's go to our first question.
I've heard that vanilla paste is all the rage. What makes it supposedly better than vanilla extract? And how do I substitute it into recipes?
Oh, I love the skepticism here. What makes it what makes it supposedly better? The shade.
I know.
I appreciate this.
Well, you know, I think better, right? Like it's not necessarily better. It's just different. It's just different. What do I say to my kids?
You know, I think that um you know, and actually, when we were talking about this yesterday, one of my first reactions was, well, it's a lot of the great things about vanilla extract, but at a cheaper price point.
Actually, not true. Yeah, then you crunch some numbers and you're like ounce for ounce. Pretty much the same. Pretty much the same. Yeah. So, you know, and I know Claire talked about this a little bit, but of course, the vanilla bean paste. I mean, paste is a little bit of a misnomer because when I think of a paste, I think of something with like the texture of uh peanut butter. Yeah, like something you can bread. Yeah. And this is more like a it's fluid. It's it's got some viscosity.
It's like a syrup almost. And yeah, I think that's a fair comparison because it also has sugar at it too.
Sugar in it. I think those are the one of the main things to know about vanilla paste. It's sweetened. It's not so sweetened that like, I mean, you're using it in such small quantities. It's not got your off your recipe. But it is a little sweetened. If you're putting it in whipped cream, it's gonna sweeten your whipped cream, which is nice, I like that.
But it's not gonna give you, if you want, for whatever reason, an unsweetened vanilla whipped cream, then you would use vanilla extract, not vanilla paste. Right, exactly. Then you would lose out on one of the other key properties of vanilla paste, which is your favorite property of vanilla paste, I think.
Yeah, well, that it has the seeds in it. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, so if you want, if you're making something that is white in color and you want to see those vanilla bean flecks in there, which I think make like it's sort of premium, you know? Like you want to speak first, baby. Yeah, totally. Feed those eyes. So I use vanilla bean paste um if I'm making, you know, whipped cream, vanilla frosting, you know, creme brulee. A white cake. A white cake.
Yeah. Because you're gonna taste it, you're gonna see it. Uh if I'm making, you know, anything else, truly, I'll use vanilla extract. And you can substitute them one for one. So if your recipe calls for a teaspoon of uh, you know, vanilla extract, you can use a teaspoon of uh vanilla bean paste. Um and you know, we always like you'll see Oliver King Arthur, we measure vanilla, they say, with with our hearts.
You know, we don't usually we just sort of dump it in. Shout out to It's Holly on Instagram. I think she coined that phrase. Oh, yeah. We measure vanilla with our hearts. That's really taken.
I mean, that's really uh it's a luxury stance. Yeah. Because we have an endless supply of vanilla at home. I'm like, I don't measure with my heart, I measure with the measurement.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Yeah. The nice thing too is like vanilla extract, vanilla bean paste, they don't expire. I mean, maybe I don't think so. I don't think they ever expire. Um, and you know, I'm always like, I go to visit my father. Uh, and my one of our family jokes is that I always am like finding things in my dad's pantry that are like so old.
Yes, you've had some really interesting things.
Like just some really wild stuff. And recently he was like, I've had this vanilla extract since your mother died. My mother died, you know, like eight years ago. And he was like, Is it still good? I was like, actually, that's the one thing I can say, yes. Like everybody gets it should be thrown out. But the vanilla bean paste is fine. Right. Uh let's go to our next question.
Hey King Arthur Baking, this is Jessica in Pikesville, Maryland, and I've got a question for you. I am an avid home baker, and I have collected over the years, flavoring much more yellow. How do I replace the vanilla extract with some vanilla extract with a different extract and a different flavoring in my being to experiment, to play around, to make things a little different? I'm turning to you for this answer. I know you'll have a good one. I can't wait to hear it. Thanks so much.
Did you see my eyes get wide when she was like, Can I substitute them one for one? I was like, Jessica, don't do it.
I did see your eyes get wide, and I I did you see me shake my head? Yeah, we were, yeah, I mean extracts are they're they're interesting. I actually have a note that I want to give at the end of our answer about a specific extract, but why were your eyes getting wide?
Well, uh first of all, I should say there are are endless amounts of extracts out there now. Like if you go to the grocery store, there, I mean, the ones that you might be more familiar with almond extract, peppermint extract, lemon extract. And then we start to get into sort of what I would consider to be more rogue territory. So you know, orange extract, root beer extract.
Like there are some, yeah, you know, uh coconut extract extract, just you know, that are gonna have a more specific use case. Yeah. Um and they vary greatly in strength. Very like very different. Um, I can't understand. I'm just I'm at a loss for words because I'm so worked up.
Extremely strong than vanilla extract. So you would not do one-to-one because if you put it, if you measure with your heart with almond extract or coconut extract, yeah, you're gonna have something inedible. You're gonna have something that's tastes so strong of that. I mean, these extracts are really powerful.
Yeah, I mean, almond extract in particular, it's like a little bit of almond extract, delicious, a lot. Am I being poisoned? Oh, yeah you know, like it's got such a strong bitter presence. Um, so I would say, you know, if you want to, you know, if you want to mess around.
I think I think the use case here is if you what if there's a vanilla cake and you want to turn it into a coconut flavored cake. Sure. So your recommendation, let's say it calls for one teaspoon of vanilla, your recommendation for our yeah, I would start with like a quarter of that amount.
I mean, you can always go up, you can never go down. Yeah. Um, and I think coconut, like, you know, because they're not, again, they're not all created equal. I would say coconut is not as powerful as like a lemon one or an almond one. Like, I'm just getting really nervous about somebody putting in like a tablespoon of almond extract into something because it will be in it'll be inedible.
How can they test this? So we cannot recommend tasting raw batter. So I you can either like make the cake and just experiment and then next time you bump it up or down if you like. I guess you could maybe stir some extract into some whipped cream or something to taste uh the the how powerful it is, but I don't think it's a good idea.
Yeah, I mean, you know, we can't we can't a good conscience say to taste the batter. No, we can't. We can't. That's all we can say.
And we won't.
We won't.
And we should. And that's where, yes, that's where we'll do it. That's a good place to leave it.
I also think like where you're using the extract, like, you know, if you're using it in a batter, you know, versus a frosting or something, like you know, like you have more ingredients to dilute it. So frosting is a great place to leave.
You could do a little batch, take a little batch out, and you have to do some math, you know.
But yeah, and I think, you know, you've got to use your noodle about this a little bit. Like, there are a lot of things that I'm like, well, you can't just like I wouldn't just like dump a lemon extract into a chocolate cake. Like that's not gonna be delicious.
I mean, and I don't think that Jessica is suggesting that, you know, but you want to think about like f flavor pairings like maybe an orange extract, maybe a peppermint one, but you know, it's gonna change the, you know, it's gonna change the flavor of your cake.
So it's a it's a big white world out there. It is. You gotta be careful.
Yeah, it is. And I do think um, yeah, a little experimentation, but um just be, you know, just be careful about that almond extract. That's just really worried about it. Yeah, I'm really worried, Jessica. Next question.
Hey, vanilla is pretty expensive. Are there some times I can get away with not using it?
This is a great question and a really fair question in this economy. Like, yeah, I mean, come on. I mean, we want to make baking it as accessible as possible. And we did talk about this with Claire. I was really interested to hear her answer on this because as someone who loves vanilla as much as she does, where does she use it? Does she use it in everything? Because you know, so many solid cakes, have you adding vanilla to the mix and is it necessary? That's kind of an interesting question.
Um, so let's call out Claire. Yeah. Let's bring it back.
I generally, even though I am someone who is adding vanilla to like a lot of my baked goods, I don't add it to every single one. Um, I don't think it's an afterthought in that way. That looks like oh, just then you add a couple of flashes. Um I think vanilla is definitely so.
I would say play around with it and really use it in a way that you're going to experience the full flavor and not just as a thing that you keep a little jar of it and add it to you know, a cake that you're making because it's so special on its own.
So I I agree with Claire. I think that, you know, certainly if you have a chocolate cake that you love and that, you know, you like how it tastes, I'm not telling you you have to stop take putting vanilla in it, you know, it's not gonna do harm. But uh if you have something that's really a really strong flavor, you can probably leave the vanilla out and maybe not miss it.
Yeah, yeah. So use it in a place, you know, if you have to choose where it's really gonna shine. Yeah, where it's really gonna shine. That makes sense.
Well, that's the end of our question. So now we get to go into our favorite segment. Right? Every episode we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-threaded opinions are in her head. She's already given a few this episode, but let's check in to see what her official just opinion is about vanilla.
Well, this is sort of a I mean, I'm taking a different spin. Oh. Because, you know, people often ask I I think there is, you know, there's a lot of talk about quiet luxury. Yeah. Right. Like, I think about that a lot as I'm getting older, like fewer, better things, which I think is a good, you know, it's a good guideline. Like we don't need more stuff.
We just so one of the things that I really like to do anytime I'm like house, you know, we're heading into like uh summer travel season, you know, when you're hosted and you want to bring something and you're like, what do I do? I bring wine, do I? Is that something I should be doing? Okay, thank you. That's a good idea, yeah. Yeah. I should maybe I'll do like a sideline manners. I thought when I run out of opinion, then I'll move to manners. Um, which I have a lot of opinions about, actually.
Just etiquette.
Jess Etiquette.
There we go.
All right, season four.
It's could be a spin-off show.
I like to bring our 16-ounce bottles of vanilla. Is that this one? Yeah, that's that one. Which is a very generous amount of vanilla. And it's the kind of thing that even if somebody is a casual baker, because as I was saying, like it never, you know, it never goes bad. So if they're an avid baker, they're gonna be stoked. Yeah. If they're an occasional baker, they'll use it for like they'll be thinking about you for the next 10 years.
Yeah. And it's the kind of thing like getting it in that big bottle, like you're not gonna do that for yourself because it's a little splurgy. I think that's like an $80 item, you know, but like cheaper than like one night in a crummy hotel, you know, like they're washing the towels, they're like preparing the meals. Like it feels like a really thoughtful, you know, and generous gift, sort of a luxury and a quiet luxury. Yeah.
I think that's a great gift. And I I do buy this for myself. Of course, you know, full disclosure, I have the King Arthur discount that this week. Um, but it is cheaper ounce for ounce. Of course, you do have to, you know, have the money on hand to buy it. Uh it's fun. Yeah. It's fun to use. It's fun to pour vanilla from this big bottle. I've never sporked, we have a size bigger than this. Do we? Yes, we have like a it's like a two-liter or something.
Wow! Chug jug of vanilla extract.
It's uh it's just fun and in it lasts a really, really long time. Yeah. Although if you're measuring vanilla with your heart, as we were talking about before, not as long as you see. Maybe break out the the teaspoons.
So maybe my just opinion is one, like never show up empty-handed. Like, I don't care what you're doing, like you know, do not. It doesn't, it doesn't, you know, doesn't matter what you bring, but you should bring something, but it does matter. And you should bring something that is thoughtful and a large bottle of vanilla extract is going to surprise and delight. Yeah. Anyone you give it to, I think.
Well, this is a really nice, kind, sort of tender just opinion. So I'd like to give a spin on it to make it a little more, a little more punchy. I think your just opinion is screw bottles of wine as a host gift. Bring a bottle of vanilla. Like you hate you hate wine, right? Now I'm putting words in your mouth. Uh tell me, Jessica, what are you baking this week?
I thought it was, I mean, we don't always line up our bakes with the theme, you know. But this week I, you know, I did because I've I've been thinking an awful lot about vanilla. Um, and I recently came into a um a cache of vanilla beans. Speaking of gifts, somebody gave me like a bundle of 20 vanilla beans, which is a really nice gift. Um, and I am gonna make our simple stovetop vanilla pudding. I love pudding.
Yeah.
So much. And this is a really nice recipe. It uses it warm or cold? Oh, I like it cold. Very cold. Okay. Um, and I don't mind the skin if it gets a skin. But this um is a recipe that's really simple, comes together all on the stovetop and is made with um sweet and condensed, which gives it like a very silky, nice texture. So, and it's like that is the place to use like your vanilla bean paste to really show off.
Like you'll not only be able to see it, but like you really will be able to taste it there. Yeah. Is that a Sarah jumpo recipe? It is a Sarah Jumpo recipe. Can't lose. No, can't lose.
Uh, I also am going with vanillas because all this talk about vanilla. And for me, uh, I don't eat a lot of cupcakes. I love cupcakes, but I don't have occasion for cupcakes, really. I don't have kids, you know.
Yeah, I mean, you don't need to have kids like a cupcake. I think the kids in my apartment.
Uh but ultra vanilla cupcakes with easy vanilla frosting, again, another recipe where vanilla's really gonna shine. Yeah, I would definitely use vanilla paste here or or vanilla beans.
In the cake and in the frosting. In both, yeah. So um And you know, we have speaking of the kids that you don't have, there is a one bowl vanilla cupcake recipe in that sweet and salty kids cookbook, yeah. Um, which is easy enough for a kid to make. And um, we have a bunch of mix and match frostings too. So there's like you can, you know, confettiify the cupcakes or the frosting.
And actually, that's a place where like you can also mess around with your extracts, you know, like you can make a vanilla base and then flavor the frosting. Um, so that's a fun recipe if you're looking for another, another cupcake avenue.
You know what my mom does? That I it's very surprising to me. I go to her house.
I love your mom, by the way.
Open the your I mean, yes.
Is she listening? I hope she listens.
She's or maybe she doesn't. I don't I she's not a fan of the podcast. I think she gets to it eventually. Yeah, okay. Well, shout out to her moms. I open her freezer and there were frozen cupcakes in there. Like iced cupcakes. I didn't know you could freeze them. Where do they come from? Like if she like gets them at a bakery and she does it and she wraps it in this ram wrap and throws it in the freezer. I said I've never seen that before.
I don't know if it's the best thing you can do, but you know what? I definitely thought when I'm eating it, it's it doesn't sound bad.
We know frosting freezes well. We know cake freezes well. Yeah. Your mom's just like getting a shortcut too. Yeah. I think it's a good idea. Anyway, you know, I don't know. We got so sweet here. I know it's weird. We won't do it again, I promise.
We will get back to being our in the next episode, yeah.
Thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know.
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And in the meantime, don't forget, follow the recipe. Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin.
And me, Jessica Batalana.
Ratia Nastapulo is our senior producer, Chad Ch and I is our producer, and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.
Thanks again to Claire Sapitz for appearing on today's episode. You can find more about Claire and her work at dessertperson.com.
Things Baker Snow is a King Arthur baking.