Who is driving Meghan Markle hate online? STUFF MOM NEVER TOLD YOU

attacks on Megan Markle. Now, this is something I spend a lot of time thinking about the ways that our internet landscape make it really easy to amplify attacks on women and women of color. But what is really interesting to me is what happens when you dig into the actual numbers of who exactly is spreading all this hate.

According to research from There Are No Girls on the Internet guest Christopher Bouse, a Bot Sentinel, it actually takes a lot less people than you might think to gamify our social media platform and dominate online discourse about someone like Megan Markle. And I joined my friends Samantha and Annie at the podcast stuff Mom Never told you to talk all about it. This is kind of a convoluted segue, but I wanted to bring it up because it does bring me joy to remember me and my old Neo's

angel email, um, receiving these things. But also I do think it kind of tangentially relates to what we're talking about today, and that there seems to be like these messages coming from we're not sure where. Um. So I'm very eager to learn about this podcast, a podcast that was a masterful transition. Thank you, thank you. But yes, I'm very eager to learn more about this. Can you

tell us what we're going to be discussing today? Yes, so, as you just said, Annie, it is sort of related about this idea of who is able to really control conversations on the internet about one specific subject, and so today that topic is going to be Megan Markele Um as you all, I'm sure by now i'll probably know

the queen died last week, to do you. I'm curious do you two have any like strong connection to the royal family, the monarchy, Like, is this something that you followed or you like could not care less have not followed it. I don't know anything about it. I personally could not care less. I it's it's been it's impossible to escape, I will say right now, UM, but I don't have any real feeling about it. I have some

friends who do. I did go through a period where I was really into like entertainment from the UK and specifically, like I was in love with the idea of moving to London. But I've never been into the royal family. That's never made sense to me personally. But I have friends who are, so I guess I get it through there. So I'm old enough to remember, uh, like vividly remember instead of just being like kind of like, yeah, I

was a kid. I remember this, the death of Diana, Princess Diana, and also uh, the love for William, Prince William, who is I think a couple of years younger than me. So of course like that era of trying to figure out watching these young princes grow up and following their stories. So not necessarily that I was caught up in the royal lifestyle or family, but I do remember that offset of seeing, uh, the huge controversies amongst the family at

that point in time. Of course, as recently as everything has happened in the past ten years with Megan Markele, even Prince William getting married and all the different things, I have an understanding of what's going on, kind of like you as well. As the fact that I have understood my group of people that I follow have very strong opinions of colonialism, and I'm like, yeah, okay, distracts. So that's kind of where I stand in this mix totally.

So I'm somewhere in the middle. I have to say right up front, I am not a careful follower of the royal family. I kind of bounce between like ambivalent to like, oh, I know about this, So I know that there are people who are obsessively following royal family and monarchy culture. And if I say anything that's incorrect, that's because I am not a careful follower of the royal family, but kind of like you, like, I have

a lot of friends who are really into it. Um older I do have a theory that older moms, specifically like older black moms, have a real affinity for Diana. So growing up, my mom loved Diana, cried when Diana died, still has people magazines from from that time with like, you know, what was it, the People's Princess and all ab that, like, like, so definitely got a little bit of secondhand roy old family engagement from that. But I've

never really been somebody who followed it carefully. Obviously, when Megan Markele came on the scene, I loved that. I was definitely like, oh, black princess. I know she's not a princess, but that was what we said that when

when she came on the scene. Um, but yeah. And I think one of the reasons I'm so fascinated by, even as someone who doesn't really know about the monarchy, why I'm so fascinated about this issue is that Megan Markle on the way that people talk about her, I think gives us a very interesting lens into how women, particularly black women and women of color, how our online

experience is shaped by other people. And Megan Markle is not even on social media anymore, neither is Prince Harry, and yet she is a constant focal point on social media. And I think that we really saw that with the death of the Queen. And even though the Queen was born back in nineteen twenty six and there was no such thing as social media back then when she by the time she died last week, social media played a huge overwhelming role in the way that the royal family

considered her death. You know, the news itself was first announced to the public on the Royal Family Twitter before any place else, and you know, a lot of the immediate next steps and actions that the Royal Family took we're circulated around social media, so like halting government social media accounts and saying like, oh, official government accounts are only going to tweet you know, essential information, no, not essential posts, and like changing the Royal Family website to

be like a like a morning you know in memorium kind of thing. And in addition to the way that social media has shaped the way the Royals, you know, present to the public, we have seen that it also presents this place for Megan Markel to be faced with pretty intense criticisms, but also things like outright lies, conspiracy theories,

racist sexist smears, and stereotypes about who she is. And it really is not the first time, like we have seen this kind of stuff going on with Megan Markel before the Queen's staff obviously, and it's so interesting to me that this this event, the Queen's death, was used not just as a way to like memorialize her or

like critique her rain or anything like that. It was also used as a way to further flam Megan Markle on social media, yes, yes, And as someone who, as I said, like, I'm not I don't follow this a lot. I don't get on Twitter a lot. Even I was aware that this was happening, like I saw it trending on like my brief, like what's going on on Twitter? And I had enough knowledge to be like, I bet this is coming from a really terrible racist place when I saw like Meg and Marco go home trending. So, yeah,

can you explain what all of that was? What was the social media response? Yeah, I mean it's almost exactly like you said. And I want to interviewed somebody who writes about fandoms and band culture, and she described it interestingly. She described it as an anti fandom, which I had never heard before. And so it's just like what you think of a fandom, but in the opposite direction. So like people who their whole thing is I love to hate this one person. I love to create content about

how much I don't like them. That's my thing. And so that kind of messaging was in full effect after the queen died. As you said, the hashtag Megan Markle go home sort of trending on Twitter, and basically what I found some interesting about that is that first people were picking up picking on her because she did not go to England with Harry, her husband, after the queen died. And I'm again I'm no expert here, but it sounds like she just was not invited and so not going

was there anything bad? And then when she actually did go, everybody was like, oh, go home, go home. So it's interesting how it kind of doesn't matter what she does. If she doesn't go, that's bad. If she does go, that's also bad. And I think it really illustrates how, yeah, it's like this impossible tightrope where it doesn't it's it's clearly not really about her actions and what she actually

does or says. It's just about her. It's about her existence, her presence that is threatening, that is not okay with the people that hate her, and ultimately it's like an impossible situation to walk. Um. There was just like very fascinating instance where she was videoed and somebody in a crowd handed her some flowers and an aid seems to walk up to her and it's like, I'll take those for you, and she says she she mouths something to him that's like seems to be oh, my god, I

don't worry about it, thank you. And you would the way that people talked about this on the internet, you would think that she punched this aid and it's like, actually, she's just like calmly standing there saying a sentence, smiling

and then like clearly saying thank you. And it's like at second interaction people were dissecting it like the JFK s a Ruder film like she like people became like overnight body language experts and lip readers and it was why old m Yeah, yeah, I want to return to that idea of anti fandom for sure, because I think as someone who is like a fan of a lot of stuff, I've seen this before and it just becomes like this where people feel justified in hating someone. And

here's the proof. And I am a body language expert and I can tell you why, um, but all it is is like they just want to hate that person who usually they feel is encroaching on their territory. And like, as someone who is interested in a lot of like Star Wars stuff, nerdy stuff, bandom stuff, I'm sure you

have seen this a lot. Yes, Oh, I cannot wait to talk about it once we get more in depth about what might be going on here, because yeah, it's just like it becomes I think I've said to Samantha before, it's like this anti finding up thing is ringing, so truth with me, because I'm like, well, you're not a fan anymore. You're just all about the hate of this. You just are unhappy. So I don't know why you're here.

It's to make everyone else feel unhappy and to like assertain your what you think is your power and dominance in the space. But you're not a fan. If you hate this much of it, just go just go along. It's gonna be okay. Oh yeah. And I mean like the levels people will go, the things they'll do to scare usually women, marginalize people off the internet is wild

to me, um and then unfortunately very often successful. But like they will come up with all of these things, and you you bought this example of like a conspiracy

theory where they were like this, something is wrong here. Yeah, So, like, I mean the amount of wild conspiracy theory like people, it's clearly a lot of like projection, where people already have a negative association with someone and then any little thing will be used as proof to stack their to stack that that thinking right, And so one of the big conspiracies that came out of the Queen's funeral was that Megan attended the funeral wearing a hidden recording device

under her dress. And the reason why people thought this is because she was photographed and in one of the pictures there's like a wrinkle or a bump on her thigh, and people were like, how like the goal she's gonna be? What is she recording this for her podcast or for some Netflix special? So shameless? And it's like, yo, I have worn those kinds of recording devices in my clothing.

They are so bulky. Also, don't you if that was her plan, don't you think she would have worn an out fit that was more conducive, Like she wouldn't have worn a dress that it's like, clings to that part of her body. She might have worn something with pockets, like you know, she might have. Don't don't you think that if that's what she was doing, she would have

done it better? And isn't it more possible that like humans who wear clothing and stand while wearing that clothing sometimes experienced wrinkles, Like isn't more more of a better explanation? From what's going on. I think you're being too logical, Bridget to be sensible. This whole conversation is so odd to me because Megan Markele just being being present marrying a man has caused this huge controversy, and of course that a lot of conversations and comparisons to Princess Diana

and Megan Markle. Of course, those same people who probably were degrading and or criticizing Princess Diana would now call her an angel and then saying that Megan Markle is the one that's uh, you know, disrespecting the name of Princess Diana, and Iver was like, wait, what you are

the ones who are number one in criticisms. But also just like the fact that Mega Markel has nothing, honestly to gain in this entirety of this conversation, of these controversies to record any of these things, uh, to try as they say that she's trying to make money off these things, She's not. She's literally doing a podcast about her own life, bringing in guests to talk about marginalized issues that has nothing to do with the throne in general.

As well as the fact Prince Harry's not that close none of his family is not close to the lineage to become king or queen or whatever whatnot. We have already seen the graphs that happened, so like my mind just this reading of like, why why take this effort to bring this conspiracy other than hey, she's uh, she is not white, so therefore we hate her. Yeah, and you you've touched on something. This is a little bit

of a tangent that you touched on. Something that I think about all the time is how you know I was young when before Princess Diana died, even I know, as like a child living in the United States, even I knew the way the press talked about her even as a kid, and so the press really tore her down. And then when she died, she's an angel. We've always loved her. It was like, and I see that so often, and I do think it's like as bad as the

media and the United States is. I do feel like in the UK and in England it's like work can be worse, like a little bit like um more vicious.

And I think about like Amy Winehouse is the figure because I was a huge Amy Winehouse than Amy Winehouse is the figure that I think about a lot where the press in the media loved to villainize her and really make fun of her in these like cruel ways and ways that I hope that when people are struggling with substance issues now, I hope that we've gotten to a place where, like we don't cruelly mock them for it.

But then when she died, the way that that that same press rushed to lionize her, rushed to act as if they had always loved her, and it's just it's hard to see, and you know, it's kind of breaks my heart. But there's this video clip of Harry talking about this and he's like, basically feels very emphatically that the press it's responsible for the death of his mother.

And then when when there was a time when Megan was open about experiencing, uh, you know, feelings of self harm, and he talked about how he felt like he was watching the press do the same thing to his new wife, that they that he had to watch them due to his mom, And I something about that clip really sticks with me of like, I don't know, I don't think I'll ever be able to understand what that must feel like to have watched that as a child and be

so powerless, and then watch it again and be like, no, I'm not letting this happen again, and compounding that with the fact that this is an racist attack on a woman for just being in love with a man, point blank. Um. But you know, I found it interesting because for me, I actually didn't know much about this hashtag I as much as I'm on Twitter and saying things. Again, like I said, my friends have very strong feelings of the Queen and her responsibility and colonialism in itself, so I

had a whole different take on this conversation. So I'm kind of surprised to know that this is happening, and I'm really wondering where did they all come from? So this is a great question. So I have to say I'm am probably in a similar digital pocket that you are, because my timeline when the Queen died was like very much black Twitter and like Irish Twitter and like to make in Twitter all coming together. I know that people

have how can I put this? I came so when the Queen died, I don't think I realized that I knew people that had a lot had I was surprised by how much reverence my friends in the United States had for her. So I was like, Okay, she's definitely like a I have friends that think of her as like a like a feminist figure. I was like, okay, Like I was a little again, this is not to like I don't want to I don't want to do

like I really I realized. I was like, oh, people have complex feelings about her, and it kind of almost became like a raw shark test of where people were at. And I was just like very surprised to see that it had not occurred to me that that was going to be the way that it was as I'll put it that way. But yeah, like I said, so that's pocket eyeman. So I'm out of the loop on this one.

I don't know. It's interesting to me. I think that Megan Markle and we should talk about it, because I do think Megan Marco evokes a reaction in a certain type of person. Just her presence, just her being around is threatening and like deeply I think it can like deeply challenge a lot of people's preconceived notions, right, So I think that, like, I also think that Megan Markle at this point carries herself in a kind of way that. Frankly, I think a lot of like white people might have

a problem with not surprising. Yeah, but that's the thing, is like, so that's the only thing I have seen. And so I'm trying to figure out where all these conversations are coming from and is it actually reflective of the rest of society, the rest of the peoples and twitters. Well,

so that is a very very interesting question. Uh. Christopher Boose, who is a CEO of a company called bot Sentinel, which is an organization that analyzes Twitter data to determine, you know, where conversations are coming from, who is generating them? Is it's real people with its spots um. He did an entire analysis of Megan Markel in October one and basically, you would be surprised that a lot of the hate thrown at Megan Markele is being driven by a lot

fewer people on social media than you might suspect. So this I'm excited to talk about because I remember forever ago, Bridget, when you and I did that episode on Star Wars Feminism. There was a similar thing about Star Wars about the hate the actors received. Oh my god, that's right, yes, And I was shocked and I I've I always try to make the point. Believe me, I know there are terrible, racist,

sexist fans. Believe me, I know that. But the data that came out was like, it's way less posting about it. I'm not gonna say it's way way well less, it's way less actually posting about it. And still the perception I got was there was this huge sex sex sect on Twitter that was like tearing down these actors and was causing Rotten Tomatoes to like review bomb. And the report we talked about was like, it's actually a lot

of bots. And still it has this huge impact that changed Drawn Tomatoes and their policy, and it changes how people perceive like Disney made creative decisions because the cowards based on this. Like, I'm just so glad you brought that up. That's such a good point, and I think it really goes to show that like a a pretty small minority of very motivated, very vocal, coordinated, I guess, in a nice way to put it, passionate people can really change discourse, They can really change like they can

really make an impact. And so I would also I would argue then that like there's a problem with our social media platforms and our digital platforms, it's a small handful, a relatively small handful of dedicated trolls and people to people like haters can really impact and change discourse. Like I would argue that that means that someing is broken

something it's flawed. And I also think that you know, when you have a small handful of people dictating the conversation and making make creating the impression that everybody hates this new person on Star Wars or everybody hates Megan Markele, it's so much easier for somebody who it's just a casual viewer of this to get the idea that like, oh, well everybody hates so and so, so like I'm not going to chime in with like I like so and so,

or that I'm ambivalent about so and so. If I'm going to chime in, it kind of poisons the well and it makes it so that we can't actually have honest conversations rooted in what people actually feel, because it's just like creates an ecosystem where the hate is it's what's dictating the conversation. And so, yeah, I would argue that that means that our ecosystems are not healthy and not you know, functioning properly. If hate is able to dictate the conversation, even if it's a small minority of

people who feel that way. Absolutely, absolutely, because I was under the impression, I was totally under the impression like, oh, this must be a much big or group of people than I thought. Even if I was like, they're wrong and they're full of hate, I still thought it was way bigger. And the numbers you brought about Megan Markle kind of shocked me with like how much smaller they were based on what I have seen as a casual viewer of this. Absolutely, So let's dig into some of

those numbers. So from this Bot Sentinel report, they found that only eighty three accounts on Twitter generate seventy percent of Megan Markle hate content on Twitter. They estimate that these three accounts have a potential combined reach of seventeen million users. So they broke it down. They found that fifty five what we call single purpose anti Megan Markle

hate accounts. And so a single purpose hate account is that account that like it only exists to hate on one person, like that, like they're not like primarily like that's what they're doing. So fifty five of those accounts were these like primary hate accounts, and then another twenty

eight secondary accounts that like mainly amplified them. And so those twenty eight accounts they might post about like the royals more generally, but that their real function is to boost and amplify when those that when those other primary accounts put out anti meg and Markle hate and so that that's really it, Like they are generating a lot

of the hate online. It is not organic conversation and it's certainly not a reflection of how just everybody feels on social media because these these accounts have such a big reach and such a big ability to control the conversation about Megan Markel. Yeah. Yeah, and that's something that you've you've come on and you've talked about a lot

on here. Is this the responsibility of social media platforms, but also that kind of manipulation towards these hateful accounts when it comes to the algorithm and like what people see and what gets like more traction, right, yeah, exactly, And so I I have a little bit of a different opinion than a lot of my colleagues in the

platform accountability and disinformation space. A lot of people would say single use hate accounts should be banned from the Internet, Like, if you are someone who is running an account and the only that account only exists to hate on one specific person, it should be banned. I can understand that view, but I think that the most important thing is that

platforms should not be amplifying it. They shouldn't be recommending those accounts to people when you when you search Megan Markel information, those accounts shall not be the ones that are prioritized and that that users see first. What users see first should be like thoughtful, honest information from sites that are that do not exist only to spread hated

at this one person. And so it is interesting that, like on a platform like Twitter, these eight three accounts that are driving most of the conversation around the negative conversation around Megan Markel, they kind of blatantly violate Twitter's rules. Like one of there's rules is that accounts cannot coordinate to dogpile on people, to harass them, or to like spread negativity around them. Well, these accounts do just that, right, and they do so in like a pretty sophisticated coordination

with each other. And yeah, I think it's one of those things where platforms really need to understand what's at stake when this is allowed, When like a small handful of accounts are able to bypass the rules that you have set for your platform in order to artificially control the discourse about one subject. That's not great. No, no,

it's not. And it's kind of frightening to be honest, And you had to quote Bose talked about this, like making the clarification that like, we can't just blame thoughts. So I find this super interesting because you know, we often when it comes to online discourse, talk about like, well is it boughts that people? And I feel like the over focused like talking about both is serious and

we should be doing that. But when we focus on that and don't also bring into the conversation that sometimes it is real people, I feel like the conversation can be not as useful because it ob scared the fact that like, well it isn't all bought some of it is like real people. And so in an interview with BuzzFeed, booz I said, this campaign comes from people who know how to manipulate the algorithms, manipulate Twitter, stay under the

wire to avoid detection, and suspension. This level of complexity comes from people who know how to do this stuff and who are paid to do this stuff. And so yeah, I think, especially what do you think about the fact that people can profit from this? I think it really should be who these platforms to make a change. I mean, that's the big conversation, is that people are making money and can make a living off of this, and why

is this something that is profitable? So it's not just they're making money, but they're profiting and literally off of hate because over here I have at least four times the amount of the bots following me and I can only get three people to look at my tea. Come on, rageous.

But I find that interesting that we have had this continuous talk and we have these prime examples of what is happening on Twitter specifically, Like we talked recently about one of the Canadian um women who is currently working with Bumble and making sure that there's safety for the women who are and those who are on their app, and that one of her big things where that she was bringing out the reports showing how Twitter does not help or defend or make Twitter safe for women and

marginalized people. And uh, if so just recently came out with a big research data showing that women are still being heavily targeted and are not being helped at all by platforms in general, and that the fact of the matter is people are once again profiting, have become have become aware of Oh, so we can make money by essentially on women and women of color and doing so in a way that not only can we get away with it, not only can we make money, but it's

making a difference, uh, in people's reaction to this. Yeah, I mean like, and so you're exactly right, like this the research is it completely jives with what you're saying. You are exactly exactly right. And as bad as that is, right, So like platforms are like I would argue that this this kind of negative engagement and harassment and abuse of women of color on these platforms, I would argue that

is built into these business models like Twitter. When when somebody tweets something that is like crapping on Megan Markele and it's getting lots of engagement, it is in Twitter's best financial interest to boost that and amplify that because it's like, oh, this is clickie. People are people are paying attention to this that's a problem. And I also think that you know, we're talking about Megan Markle, who is a public figure, but she's not a political figure necessarily.

We're talking about you know, Star Wars and life fandom. Think about how that I as bad as that is. Apply that to democracy. Apply that to women and women of color who are trying to run for office. Apply that to women and women of color and other marginalized people who are trying to engage in our democracy and be part of civic and public life, right, And so

the implications really become clear. If it's this bad for conversations that are you know about pop culture and like celebrities, imagine how how big the stakes are when that same dynamic is applied to people who are just trying to run for office or just trying to make their voices heard and participate fully in our democracy. Right. In the one report we were talking about, they were specifically focusing on journalists and talking about this is a part of

their job description. And I think about that all the time. I'm like, oh my god, because technically is a part of our job description. And I hate it. I hate it so much because I don't want to become a

focal point at any point noting that we are. Thank God, because if we go under the radar as well, like I said to people like my tweets, it's fine, um, but we go under the radar enough that you know, we don't have to deal with that before someone who has who is being told if you don't get your views up, you're not gonna get paid, or you're not going to stay in this job. I couldn't imagine. So I actually literally just left a summit all about this

as it pretains to journalism. And I when I was a kid, I wanted to be a journalist, right like I was obsessed with April O'Neil from teenage Mutant into Turtles. I wanted to be a journalist like that was like

the career that I wanted to go into. And today the fact that young women like who are younger go into journalism like like willingly, it surprises me because I think a lot of women have women are smart enough to realize if I'm going if the cost of doing this job is dealing with with online abuse, online harassment, online violence, and my male counterparts are not dealing with

it the same way that I am. So it's just like the it's just like an extra woman tax or you know, marginalization tax in the workplace, and institutions largely do not know how to support women who are going through this and dealing with this, and so it's like just their problem. There's an assumption that the person who is the focal point of harassment and abuse that they've done something to warrant it, and that completely is not how it works. Like oftentimes the thing that they're doing

is like existing as a woman. Um, and so think about what we are asking women to deal with. It's just completely unfair, and we're asking them to deal with it and not even talk about the issue, right, and so it's completely it's that's a completely unfair dynamic. When I think about how many people have either just given up on this as a career, they're just like, I'm not going to get on social media. It's not worth it. It has the ability to suppress women from being involved

in public and civic life. And the worst part is is like we were just now talking about it. We're so late in bringing it up right, And that's in fact, these reports are specific to Twitter, but it's been happening. It's been happening on bigger platforms and other social media's right, Oh, absolutely it is. I don't want to give the impression that it is just Twitter, because that is not the case.

Um So Sentinel also analyzed YouTube accounts and they found that because of YouTube monetization, trashing Megan Markel is actually big lucrative business. They found that twenty five YouTube channels earned around three point five million from ad revenue and that three of the most successful anti Megan Markell accounts

generated almost five hundred thousand dollars during their existence. And these videos are like it's not like they're filming, you know, I know, but yess, it's like they're low quality videos that basically just traffic in years theories and outright lies and like racist stereotypes and tropes, right, and so like some of the claims that they'll make is like, oh, Megan Markel, she baked her pregnancy, she used to serogate,

like it's it's things that are completely baseless lies. And I think that if you are able to make half a million dollars almost trafficking in baseless lies and conjecture and racism and sexism, you shouldn't be able to If you're able to make that kind of money from that,

something is wrong, like something is really broken. Yeah, yeah, I mean agreed, because it's like not that this always works, but there's been attempts to crack down on like medical misinformation UM, like you can't make money off of that. It's been hit or miss, but there have been attempts, and it seems like if there's just something flatly untrue, you should not be making millions of dollars from it by saying that it is true. And then just like the the spreading of that UM and how harmful that

is on these platforms. And we've seen and like we said, like the trickle effect of people believing that this is the discourse. And so therefore women have it hard enough already, like in the public office, like I just don't like her, There's something about her, and to have like just this overwhelming discourse of like no, no one likes her, and so it just it just seems so toxic and that people are making money from it is very frustrating. And

I definitely agree that means something is wrong here. Yeah, And I want to be clear, like I didn't really have strong feelings about Megan Markele. I like that she's a black princess, but or was a black princess, and yeah, I know she wasn't really princess, but whatever. I but like, if you don't like Megan Markele, that's fine, You're it's it's totally within your right to be like, I don't

like her, ruthers me the wrong way. Whatever. We all have people that we don't like, but that is very different than you know, I am going to spearhead a coordinated campaign to make it seem like everybody doesn't like her, and that campaign is going to be built on racism, sexism, and lies about who she is. And I say that because when you do that, you're making us all less safe.

It truly does threaten our democracy. When you're able to tell those kinds of inflammatory lies and have them take up so much space in the room, it makes all of us that much less safe, particularly women and women

of color. It makes it so much harder for us to thrive in environments where we can be judged on our character, things that we actually do and actually say, not made up conspiracy theories about us putting microphones in our panties, right, like, we need to have a discourse where honest, thoughtful, accurate conversation about who we are as

marginalized people dominates and crap like that does not. Yeah, yeah, I remember very vividly this essay I read a while back that was like, you know, if a woman stands up in the town square and is saying something is wrong here, and as thousand men threatened her with violence and are screaming over her, who's like, freedom of speech is being threatened here? Because it feels like that because, like you said, so many people leave, so many marginalized

people and women leave because they're facing this what they feel? What? What is this like shouting hateful vitriol that makes you feel unsafe in the space, and it makes it impossible for us to have these healthy conversations that are necessary and needed for a democracy. Absolutely, I would also argue that like that, it's by design, it's meant to come

up the works. It's meant to have people who are interested in actual discussion and dialogue to check out and be like, no, banks don't want to risk risk it by putting my thoughts out there. And it's meant to make sure that we can't find unity, that we can't come together, that we can't make progress on all the issues that are impacting us and have the conversations that we need to have that might move us forward on those issues. Right well, Virgid, is there any has there

been any changes? Is there any hope? There is a little bit of hope. Right So. Earlier so I mentioned how on YouTube people are able to make big money basically just running single purpose hate accounts against Megan Markele not anymore. Earlier this year, YouTube made a big change. They do ranked anti Megan Market results from their search.

In a really great BuzzFeed piece by Ellie Hall which shout out to Elliet Hall, she has done some fantastic reporting on Megan Markel and race and culture and what

it all means. Uh, Ellie Hall rights. But now you'll only find videos from verified accounts and news outlets in the YouTube search results for Megan Markel and first recommendations in the sidebar, even if you explicitly searched for and started watching video is that accused Megan Market of being a narcissist or videos claiming that she wore fake ballet to make herself look pregnant. YouTube's recommendation sidebar won't initially serve you similar videos, and so, uh, I do think

that that is a step in the right direction. Like I gotta give it to YouTube that that was a good call, because yeah, when you search any topic, but let's use Megan market at an example. It is not it should not be in YouTube's best interest for the first search results, but the things that they're promoting for the recommended videos that they're surfacing to you to be videos from people whose whole thing is hating on that

one thing. Right, it should be honest, accurate content. I would love to throw and thoughtful in there, but I think if because it's gets accurate, that would be great. That would be a great start for just just just do this because it's gotten so off the royals and it's just like, just just be true. At least if you're going to say Nick and Markle is married to Prince Harry, just just into with that. I'll watch that

over anything. This is the biggest conversation, like why is it significant when people talk about Megan Markel knew what she was coming onto. Again, it's just one of those places of like, but she just got married, but that's the end, she didn't want to be a princess because so many accusations came at her that they're like, you know what, we're leaving this royal family stuff. We're done.

We're done because we're getting attacked from every circle, whether it's she's uh a gold digger, slash, I guess a royalty digger? Is that? Is that that sort of name, is that something um or versus to her want to disrupt the family, all of these things that what just happened was they got set up. They are famous. She wasn't that famous. She just she was an actress. She was good at our job. She could have kept going.

She met him, got married, and that's it. She's not trying to be political, she's not trying to be royalty. She just wants to be a part of our family. Has some really good good relationship with her mother, bad relationship with bother, just being that and because of that, she's getting all this vitriol being compared to the other royalties. Uh, we we know what this is. We know what this looks like. And for her, who was not even on social media, who continues to be attacked, is just one

of those parts of like she doesn't deserve this. There's nothing that she did that deserves this. There's no conversation where we think that this is earned. And she she put herself out there. She's not a politician taking a stance on anything. She's just being like, that's it, Yeah, you something that you said. I hadn't even really thought about this, But I think that people's reactions to Megan Markle really demonstrate how women of color especially are really

not allowed to publicly be multifaceted, comply humans. It's like the fact that like, oh, she has a you know, complicated relationship with her father who doesn't write. Like they use these incredibly human things where it's like, yeah, welcome to being a human in relationships with other humans. Sometimes that these things happen, Like they find these incredibly human things that we all experience, and they they use it or they frame it as like a negative against her.

In these ways I just think are just completely transparent. It's so obvious what's happening. And the way that they talk about her with this like I wanna say this, They're quite good at talking about her with this plausible deniability of like oh, I didn't mean I didn't mean that racially When I called her Compton Kate, even though she's not from Compton. I didn't mean anything race like race truly, but I didn't say anything racially motivated there.

I was just saying she's from California and Compton it's also a city in California, you know, yeah, yeah, I mean this is again, I feel like we need a new segment bridget where you come on and we do like ramps, but I feel like this, there's so much of this. It is like questioning women's ambition and it still seems to be in this very like old system of royalty, like, oh, she's just trying to marry into

the royal family. We can't trust anything she does, and she's trying to ruin this tradition by being her and like just constantly questioning and calling out what women's intentions are. And it's funny because I find myself having I mean, these systems are so ingrained that I'm not immune to it.

Like I when I read articles about ambitious women, like I have to really check myself internally and be like, well, are you really just like adding this like sexist trope on to this woman that assumes that she must be you know, misleading this like simple childlike man who doesn't know any better, and and oftentimes the answer is yes, and I have to step back and be like, well, let's unpact why your assumption was that this woman who was ambitious and powerful must be you know, calling the

shots and misleading this like dull lord of a man. Isn't that kind of insulting to both of them? Yeah? It just goes to show like how ingrained these these systems are and how insidious they are, and the work that each individual needs to do to unpack them. And myself very much included, right, Yeah, me, all of us. I think we all have these things that we just didn't realize that we did internalize so much, and something like this, you know, the Royal family, Mega Markle can

seem kind of frivolous. It's not that it can kind of feel that way because celebrity culture kind of insights that a lot. But as we've been alluding to a lot throughout this, it does matter, right, Oh, it matters hugely. Like I would say that the reactions to Megan Merkel really shows how easy it is for a relatively small amount of people to create an effective and negative echo chamber that can be fueled by things like racism and sexism.

You know, again, if eighty three accounts are able to generate the majority of negative chatter about one person and create the impression inorganically that that is the overall sentiment of that person, it kind of means that our digital landscape and our platforms might not be so healthy. Yes, yes, and and I don't think we went over this, but there were those the people who are doing this, who are running these accounts know what they're doing. They know

how to manipulate the system. We talked about that, but they have like very specific ways. So if there's if we are on working in these systems where the eight three, these eight three people can just manipulate these rules and kind of skate being banned and these what some people who or maybe casual Twitter users or what have users assume like, oh Twitter has these rules, they'll kick people off.

But that's not working either. No, it's not working right, And so I would say the fact that platforms still allow this largely is a big problem, right, And the fact that it's profitable that you can make money from it, and I think it's incentivized, and so again, like we it's these eighty three people are bad actors, but also more institutionally, platforms need to do something to make sure that relatively small handful of people can't hijack an entire

conversation about a subject. And again, I know that a lot of people that I respect would say that the answer is to ban single issue hate accounts or single person hate accounts, that we should be banning those, and I again, I I think that there's always going to be people who they're staying is hating on other public figures, and so I don't necessarily think that like those people should not be able to do that, Like I don't love it, and like I wouldn't recommend it, and I

would never be friends with somebody who would do that, and I would never do that. But there's I feel that there's always going to be people who are hell bent on hating on others, and I think that's just like a reality of the world that we live in. But even so, platforms don't have to make money off of it, profit off of it, amplify it, normalize it,

you know, like they can take some accountability. And so I don't know, I think that the real the real For me at least, the real problem here is what happens when platforms just allow this and it becomes the norm. Because I really have seen the way that this same dynamic can be applied to political leaders, women running for office, women journalists, and I think the implications when you apply

it that way really become clear. It's it's it's they're quite dire, and yeah, people can make money off of it. Like the fact that we're looking at Forbes magazine with TikTok stars talking about how the number one stars making almost twenty million dollars per you. It's kind of like what wait, what? And the realization is literally, TikTok the platform helped elevate these individuals and have made them a household market and have made them profitable and have created

a new genre of celebrities. Is that a thing, right? I mean, the fact is they have a lot of power, whether we want to admit it or not. And it it plays into obviously, as you were talking about Star Wars, it plays into movies, is played into what's being created, it's plays into what's being pulled, is played into who ends up being on uh, who ends up becoming leaders.

It absolutely affects everything, and when it's specifically targeted to silence marginalized individuals, like what has happened with Megan Markel that she got off of social media. We've seen many teen celebrities, young girls get off social media because it's the constant were rating, constant trolling that it becomes a thing. We've seen individuals being terrorized for making a comment about

someone's favorite musicians. It's the whole level of like what is happening and the fact that this has allowed to happen and there's no one who seemingly controls it, even though it's under a platform that is a private company exactly.

I mean, I couldn't have put it better myself. And when I think about the ways that you know, the younger generation, the generation coming up behind me, they're largely like you know, the online generation, and so they're learning about politics and the world around them and civic engagement from the internet. The ways that they exert that power

in those voices is are are largely online. If our online systems are so toxic that people don't even want to be part of them, that is an entire generation of marginalized young people who early on have just checked out and that is a huge problem. Yeah. Yeah. And on top of that, I think of kind of the toxic messaging we get from a very young age um as women, and so you internalize some of this stuff.

And then if you were exposed to these so ual platforms that are just reinforcing all the toxic messaging, that's not good. That's that's very, very bad. Yeah. I guess like I just strongly feel that we all deserve better. Like we we we can have better. The reason why things are not better, I would argue, or because it's lining the pockets of mostly white, straight cys men who build these systems and profit from them, and them we

deserve better. I don't care if they all go bankrupt if it means that we can have something better for the rest of us. Yes, see, the rich like it. I love it. Um Well, thank you so much as always, Bridget, it was a delight to have you. Every time we have these, I'm like, well, we gotta talk about this, we gotta talk about this, we gotta have about this. So are there any resources you want to shout out or where can the listeners find you? Both well, I

definitely recommend checking out bought sentinels work. They put out research briefings that are so fascinating and Christopher Bose has done such a the job of really helping me understand what's happening on the internet, so definitely check them out. Um. You can follow me on Twitter at Bridget Murray or on Instagram at Bridget Marian d C and check out my podcast There are no girls on the Internet. Yes, yes, yes, absolutely do that. Listeners, if you have not already, thank

you again a Bridget for being here. Cannot wait until the next time, me too, thanks for having me Yes absolutely always a wonderful, wonderful pleasure and the listeners. If you would like to contact us, you can or emails stuff me your mom stuff at I hurt meat dot com. You can find us on Twitter at Mom's of podcast or Instagram and stuff I Never Told You. Thanks as always too, are super producer Christina. Thank you Christina, and thanks to you for listening someone Never told you the

protection of I Heart Radio. For more podcast for my Heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app Apple podcast wherever you listen to your favorite shows