What’s happening with people of color in Ukraine?

no girls on the Internet. At least sixties hundred thousand people have fled Ukraine in the days following Russia's invasion, according to The New York Times. Some of these include students, are migrant workers from Africa, Asia or other regions. People of color in Ukraine reported racist mistreatment as they tried to leave the country. The United Nations has acknowledged that non white refugees have faced racism while attempting to leave

the country. Videos flooded social media of people of color being taken off buses, being shoved the back of lines in favor of white Ukrainians, and being harassed by extremists and in this moment a very real crisis and very real fear. Bad actors are also exploiting their stories and social media platforms to further cause chaos, confusion, and distrust. It is a lot to unbraid. So I turned to Christopher Boozy, CEO of BT Sentinel, a tool that helps

determine real people on Twitter from inauthentic accounts. So, you know, I was reading a little bit about your background, about how you initially fell in love with technology and computers. Take me back, how did you How did you first get involved with this kind of stuff. Oh it's simple. My mother. Um, she she used to work for telephone company. Um, you know, it's a rising now, but back then it was I think nine Next or New York Tells, something

like that. And she worked with computers, so she knew where computers were going before a lot of people, especially in our community, UM, knew where computers were going. Um. So for Christmas, she purchased me in a Mattel Aquarious computer. You know, it was considered kind of like a toy, but it was it was a computer, you know. Um, it was basic and actually the language basic. And Um, this this journey that I've been on, I tell people all the time, it's really easy to say it started

with my mom. So Christopher's work determining bats from authentic real accounts really came into sharper focus around the presidential election. Presidential election in the United States was a really weird time online. Bad actors use social media to create chaos and confusion, and a Senate inquiry found that no group was targeted for this kind of disinformation more than black folks. Bad actors what you social media accounts pretending often times

pretty badly to be black. If you listen to our episode last season most Saffiica Hudson, you know exactly what I'm talking about. It just created a lot of distrust and confusion, which ultimately was the entire point. This is around the time when Christopher really started to see the impact that these kinds of disinformation tactics had on our

ability to meaningfully connect online, especially for black folks. After the election, we realized like, hey, there were these fake accounts, uh that were influencing conversations that you know, we're also being used to target people of color to try to swathe them away from Hillary Clayton and the Democrats. Um yeah, I realized like, hey, there's a huge problem here. And then we started having people who were calling each other

bots like if they didn't agree with each other. So you know, if you came to my you know, my Twitter feed and you're like, you know, hey something whatever, and then I'm just like, I don't agree with you. Then someone jumps in, you know that this person is a bot or that person is a bot, and I just thought it wasn't productive and it was counter I mean it just for what social media is and what

we are supposed to use it for. I just thought by everyone calling each other about because we did not agree, that that just was adding to the problem. So, you know, I set out to try to create a platform to allow people to be able to identify the real accounts from the fake accounts, you know, because I really don't even though the name of the company is bought Sineal, I don't like using the term bot that much because

it has morphed over time. Um And a lot of the accounts now that we see are not really bots per se. They are more human controlled accounts. Um. So we like to say in authentic accounts. So how do you actually use machine learning to distinguish an authentic accounts

from authentic accounts? Back in twenty seventeen, started work being on the platform, really started doing the research, and you know, in the beginning hit a roadblock because it's like, okay, you know when you when you create these models, these machine learning models, you have to train it and you have to give an examples of quote unquote what's a

good account versus a bad account. So you know, my opinion of a good account may be different from your your opinion, and you know, my opinion of a bad account might be different from yours and so forth. So what I consider good may not be with other people

consider good or bad. Uh So, what I ended up doing was using Twitter's UM terms of service there there there you know, rules, and that was the guide like whatever they considered what's breaking the rules and you know whatever, that's what I would use as the you know, the

roadmap or the map whatever UM. So then started looking for accounts that were considered good and consider bad and trained the model and and did this over time and at the same time building out the platform, and then in launched it UM And I mean, I don't want to say it was an overnight success, but people, you know, pretty much flocked to it because it was something that people were really dying for, because they really wanted to

know who they were interacting with. So there were already a few tools out there to determine if an account online as a BOT or not, but Christopher wanted to go further. There were a couple of other, um, you know, platforms or similar products out there there, but you know, the way that they were designed, they were designed to pretty much say like bot or not, you know, kind of like old days hot or not, bot or not. Yeah, you know, And I thought that was bad because it's

it's it's not black and white, it really isn't. And so my system was more like a credit you know, score system, where you have accounts that are rated normal, satisfied three, disruptive, and problematic, obviously problematic being the worst, you know, obviously like the lease worst or whatever. And so people understood that right away. So they were able to look at those reports that are generating when you analyze an account and they're like, okay, I get this,

understand it. So it's not just you know, bot or not. You know, we have a range of different scores. I have been called a bot before if I've said something that people a lot of people didn't agree with. Um it's one of the reasons I have my camera on for this interview. I was like, I just want to make sure that he knows that he's talking to it an actual black human who exists in the world. Do you just see somebody on Twitter who is just not

using the language correctly? Like obviously at your Twitter feed today and someone said someone had a tweet that said, any time a black goes against what they're supposed to be doing or doesn't doesn't support the Democrats, y'all say it's a bot. And I'm thinking, I don't know any other black people who would refer to another black person

as a black That doesn't sound right to me. And so it's interesting how before we just had these sort of cultural cues or language cues to help us understand if this person is actually, you know, the black human that they're purport purporting to be, And now we have this tool that can really put a little bit of of of data behind it. This is actually a persistent problem on social media people pretending to be someone they're not.

Online journalist Wanna Thompson popularized the term black fishing, when someone who isn't really black pretends to be black on social media. And it doesn't just stop at race. It can be all kinds of things. For instance, people pretending to be medical professionals or doctors to spread vaccine misinformation.

And this person that you're talking about, we called it black fishing, when someone pretends to be black, creates an account, uses a black photo, and they try to persuade other people, you know, in the community to do things by saying certain things. So they would say, for example, I don't like Joe Biden. You know, he's not he hasn't done anything for the black community. You know, me being a black, I don't find him to you know, have my values

or whatever. Um. So anyone reading that will say, wait, you know, is that a typeo you know? Or did this person actually get it raw? Um? And that applies to a lot of different things. That that applies to people who are pretending to be doctors who are telling people not to take the vaccine, and another doctor reading some of what they're tweeting would say, this makes absolutely

no sense. So so maybe to you and I, uh, not being doctors, who may not spot that right away, but a professional you know that does this for a living, would say, hey, what you said just makes absolutely no sense. There's no way you're a doctor. So you know, so the same applies to like you said, when you know, unfortunately someone is trying to pretend like they're black, Black

fools can usually spot that right away. Yeah, and I also think I completely agree, And I think you gave people a way to have just better conversations on social media because we probably all had that experience of your talking to somebody on Twitter and eventually you're like, this person is not worth my time, This person is not worth having a conversation with. This person is not interested

in having a thoughtful conversation. And I think you're to you what you've done has given people a better framework for when it's like this person is not worth engaging. This person is misrepresenting themselves. This person is misrepresenting the situation that they're that they're claiming to be an expert on or claiming to have experience with. You know, not every not every person on social media is worth your time or like the person that you should be trying

to have a real conversation with. Ultimately, Christopher wants to help create better social media experiences, one where people, especially women of color, who we know are so often targeted, don't have to be subjected to constant harassment just to

show up online. But what's happened on Twitter. There's also the targeted harassment side of things, where a lot of these in authentic accounts, UM, they purposely go after people that are either you know, supporting an individual or you know, they're talking about climate change or you know, whatever the issue may be. And we see that a lot with women, especially women of color. UM. You know, we're doing a

study now, research now on Kamala Harris. UM. We previously did something on Megan Markle, and women of color are seemed to be like the prime target for a lot of these accounts. So we started building out too to help with that. You know, we have an order blocker that blocks accounts not only based on the Bosom rating, but also it could be tailored to the individual. Let's just say there's an emoji that a lot of these

accounts are using. I can't think of something right this second, but uh, if if you want, you can block accounts that are using that specific emoji or even specific keywords if you wanted to. UM, you can block accounts that are just recently created because, as you know, a lot of times when they're doing the swarming when they're attacking, they will just go and create a bunch of accounts like right away and then spam you and attack you

with that. So you can actually auto block accounts that were just recently created or don't have a lot of followers or not, you know whatever. I mean, it can be literally tailored to your taste. Um, so we thought that was a lot better than just people using generic blocklists or you know, using other products that just block based on a list. You know you're blocking it, so

I should you know, that doesn't really work. I mean, we are trying to make the platform form a place where people can feel safe, you know, that they can use our tools to I don't know, have a better experience on Twitter and then hopefully on other platforms as following the future. Let's a quick break ut her back. I was baking though, Fisher literally looked me my eye and said, in his language only Ukrainians, that's all that

if you're black, you should walk. That's Jessica Arecpo, a Nigerian medical student and one of the estimated sixteen thousand African students living in Ukraine. Around twenty Indian students also live in the country. As the invasion of Ukraine intensified we solve reports of non white people in Ukraine struggling to get out of the country. The hashtag Africans in Ukraine was used to amplify stories of Africans being pulled off trains and busses not being allowed to flee in

favor of white Ukrainians by Ukrainian authorities. Doctor Imbagwu, a twenty four year old doctor from Nigeria who lived in western Ukraine, told The New York Times the Ukrainian border guards were not letting us through. They were beating people up with sticks and tearing off their jackets. They would slap them, they would beat them, they would push them to the end of the queue. It was awful. So

I need to make this really clear. It is absolutely true that the people of color in Ukraine are being mistreated during an active invasion because of racism, and it's disgusting. The High Commissioner for Refugees from the United Nations confirmed this in a statement. And really, you don't even need to look to stories from folks on the ground to see the way that racism against non white people in

Ukraine is playing out. This isn't a place with all due respect, you know, like at Rock or Afghanistan, it has seen conflict raging for decades. This is a relatively civiliz relatively European I have to choose those words carefully, to city where you wouldn't expect that or hope that

it's going to happen. But this clear racism also reveals a really important, yet difficult to contend with reality about how disinformation works, That it's often rooted in actual truth, and bad actors inflame legitimate tensions during already tense moments like this to create chaos and confusion at a climate

where nobody knows what to believe. So, while it is absolutely true that non white refugees in Ukraine are facing disgusting racism as they try to flee, it's also true that inauthentic accounts and bad actors are cruelly using their stories to inflame racial tensions and deepen existing divisions. And what's even more disgusting is that we have a digital media landscape that makes it really easy for them to do this. So what are you seeing in terms of

a conversation online with regard to black people in Ukraine. First, I would like to say that yes, there were of you know, of color, not just black people, know they were there were you know, Indian people, Brazilians as well who did Um, who did face some discrimination, I guess is how you would say it, because they were not allowed to board busses. Now, the the pushback to that was, well, you know where they were going, Um, they were not allowed to enter that they had to go into like

another country or something like that. UM. So like if they were going trying to go into Poland, for example, there were black folks who were denied access. So that's true. And there were people that were not allowed on buses or pulled off buses and stuff like that. UM. Now you have accounts that are popping up all of a sudden, newly created accounts claiming to be black that were saying

things that we could not verify. You know that videos that were not even from Ukraine that people started you know, sharing that stuff. And we can clearly see that a lot of these accounts were fake, they were inauthentic, you know, using our technology, UM looking at you know what exactly these accounts are saying. Because some of these accounts were just spamming the same thing over and over and over. And over again, and that's a clear sign of platform manipulation.

It's so awful for so many reasons, but a big one is that it creates a climate where the actual people of color fleeing for their lives have to work that much harder to amplify their stories in a media

landscape awash with confusion and in authentic discourse. Students sharing videos about their experiences in Ukraine on social media began timestamping their videos and adding exact location codes to demonstrate that they were actually real and authentic, and the fact that they would even need to do this just to be heard demonstrates how badly tech platforms have failed to create a landscape that people can meaningfully turn to for sharing and receiving information during a time of real crisis,

because they have to compete with inauthentic accounts and bad actors who are using their very real trauma to manipulate people. It's a complex situation. And then pointing it out, Christopher face criticism that he was invalidating the reality of racism actually fased by non white people in Ukraine. But even

that reveals a tough point about combating disinformation. Bad actors will seiz on, moments of crisis, intention to inflame legitimate pressure points that already exist in our communities, the kinds of sensitive or highly charged topics that can be difficult to discuss. So you know, it's our job to report the truth, you know, published the truth, whether it defends someone or not. And that's what we did. And of course there were people that were just like, oh, you know,

you're perpetrating this thing. Is if it's just propaganda, you know, our people are being left to die, And you're like, no, that's not what we're doing at all. We're not saying that this is not actually happening on the ground. But when you have accounts that are trying to sow division, who start trying to sow discord, excuse me, who are trying to divide people, who are trying to make you know, people of color not supportive of a country because of

some incidents that happened. Um, I mean, look, let's let's let's be honestly, let's be real. There's racism everywhere. There's racism here in the United States. You know. Unfortunately, I can walk down the street and get stopped by a car and got bid. I can get shot just because

of the color of my skin. But going back to the actual fake accounts, they were clearly trying to manipulate and we see this all the time unfortunately on social media, black folks or targeted a lot um because you know, whether it's Black Lives Matter, whether it's elections, you know, they feel as if we're easily manipulated because you know, matters of race. People get fired up. You know, people are very you know, passionate when it comes to race.

It matters of race. So of course if you see like people being denied access to buses, you're like, you know, your first instinct is like, what the heck is going on? Like I'm supporting this country and now you're treating my people like like garbage, like what's happening? And then it goes viral And that's what state actors want. They want

that they want to muddy up the waters. You know, they want you to not support this country, not support Ukraine, so they will take a little snippet of truth and make it seem like a whole entire country is filled with Nazis and people who hate black folks, and that's just not true. Are their races in Ukraine of course there there are. I mean, I'm they're like I said, I'm from the United States. They're they're a bunch of races here, and they're a bunch of races in the

UK and there are a bunch of racists everywhere. But that doesn't mean that the whole entire country is racist. That doesn't mean that because these people were not allowed on the you know, the buses are not allowed entry into a country, that that was the policy of the actual country itself. Um, And that's what we were just trying to, uh, you know, to to to convey to people that, hey, look, be really careful about what you're sharing.

You can be upset about what's happening in Ukraine, you could be upset about people not being acts allowed access to buses and stuff like that, but you can also be vigilant and not help, you know, escalate this situation on social media. Yeah, and I think that that really exposes a truth about disinformation and bad actors that I say a lot, but this was a time where I really felt it. You know, bad actors they exploit our

legitimate tensions and traumas and triggers to manipulate us. And I know that when I saw these videos of black folks and other folks of color, you know, not being let on busses and all of this chaos, it triggered something in me like that is that is a tension point within me personally. Disinformation tends to be rooted in some kind of legitimate truth, right, and that bad actors they exploit that, those tensions, those pressure points, They exploit

that within people to manipulate us. And I definitely felt it. I had to stop myself from you know, quickly retweeting and and amplifying videos just because they had caused a kind of emotional response from me. And I think that's something that we need to really be super clear on that bad actors they're very savvy. They know how to manipulate issues that get people fired up, and they they definitely found my issue, and you know, I think that being really aware of that is key, and then also

really knowing the historical precedent, because you're absolutely right. I think that a lot of bad actors and people who are pushing disinformation just see black the black community in the United States as easy fodder for manipulation. You know, we know that in the election, there was no group targeted for Russian interference on social media to medal in the election more than black folks in the United States.

We know that a Senate inquiry confirmed that, and so we've got to keep in mind there is a historical precedent for you know, people seeing us as easy targets for manipulation along the basis of race, and that that bad actors are going to exploit things that are legitimate concerns, like there are is legitimate anti blackness and racism happening in Ukraine. I am sure of it. However, it's not negating that to also keep in mind, and bad actors

are going to exploit that truth to try to manipulate us. Absolutely. I mean, you're preaching to the choir here, um. And that's what we try to We try to educate not only know the black community, but we also try to educate, you know, the white community as well, to let them understand what's happening. Because still people don't realize even I mean it's been several years now, don't realize just how much platform manipulation is happening. They don't realize how much

targeted harassment is happening. Um. So that's why I try to use my Twitter account as a teaching tool. UM. And you know, whether it's you know, a celebrity that's being attacked or an organization that's being attacked, you know, I try to kind of rip the scab off and and and and let people see because sometimes, you know, I would have people ask like why are you amplifying this?

You know, and it's like the only way we're gonna educate people, and and and the only way we're gonna fix this is by educating people is showing them and giving them a window into what's happening. Because a lot of a lot of the researchers UM in my field that do this, like a lot of times if they publish a report, they don't even know publish the list of accounts. We don't do that. We publish everything because

we want people to understand what's happening. So whether you know, we are showing you know, pages of tweets, you know, the accounts themselves. UM, we want people to be educated. And you know, I'm asked all the time like how

are we going to fix this problem? And I'm like, critical thinking is key here, UM, rethinking how we teach our kids about you know, social media and and and looking for you know, like, for example, if someone posts something um and you're not you're not sure it's it's legitimate, teaching our kids to research and find out if that's you know, legitimate, taking just five minutes and trying to find you know, other sources for this particular story. And and I'm I'm gonna tell you right now, I have

seen journalists. These are professionals who retweet stories that are completely fake. And I still, you know, it happened a lot in and it's still happening in. Yeah. I mean I have been guilty of it. I have to admit, and and and I've been guilty of it before I knew a lot about how this stuff works. Now, when I see a story, I kind of have my bullshit detect her up. There are a couple of things where I'm like, oh, I don't know, a story that just seems a little like a little too I kind of

put this. When I see a story that seems taylor made for someone like me to share it, it almost seems like it was crafted specifically for virality, my bullshit detector goes up. Or I'm like, oh, this is just a little too convenient that everything that that would prompt someone like me to share is there. And so I have gotten a lot smarter about that kind of thing now. But a few years ago, I don't think we were having conversations about, like, it's good to check you know,

your sources, check your sources. It's good to like verify if something seems a little fishy to you, maybe google it. You know, I don't think we were having conversations about the importance of that kind of literacy online even just a few years ago. We were not. We were and and and it's good to see that we are having

those conversations. Um. You know, I look, one company can't do it all, you know, I would love to see more companies come into this space and be public about it, because there are there are some companies that work for like campaigns, UM and they do things behind the scenes, and that's not helping. It really isn't. Because yes, you know, it's good to like, if there's a campaign and there's someone putting out disinformation, someone is helping to mitigate that disinformation.

But we need we need more people doing this publicly. You know, we need workshops, We need people to understand, like you said like, hey, check other sources. Um, we wasn't have that conversation a few years ago. Hey, you know, look at who you're engaging with, Look at who you're amplifying.

Is this person a state actor? Because there are there are accounts that you know, fly under the wire for months, sometimes years that are you know, they are fake and they are state sponsored accounts, and they're just helping to you know, whatever it may be, you know, whether it's trying to help Republicans or trying to you know, pretend like they are Democrats in the beginning and then kind of switch up and say, oh, you know, I'm no longer supporting the Democrats because of X, Y and c um.

You know, we see that a lot. So, you know, I just think, I just think that as a society, we need to start having these conversations more. After a break,

let's get right back into it. You really reveal something about why I get so fired up about things like in authentic accounts and disinformation is because we're not really able to have we're not really able to view social media to have the authentic, thoughtful, accurate, substitutive conversations that we need to be happy and so I'm a black person. I care deeply about the treatment of black folks, folks of color, marginalized people, both here in the United States

and around the globe. That is something that I care deep like my my entire life is about that. And I am not able right now to have a conversation on our largest social media platforms about the status of the folks that I care about my own community around

the globe because of bad actors and disinformation. It's like, and so I think that that's the thing I always hit on, is that what we what what we all was out on, is having a media ecosystem where the conversations that we need to be having critically are are able to be had. We don't have that right now.

You know if even you, like I see the pushback that you get trying to make this point of like, yes there is racism happening in Ukraine, of course, and yes there are state actors trying to manipulate how we respond to it. And people will respond to you saying like, oh, you're negating racism or you're saying racism doesn't exist, and it just goes to show that we are losing out on having a media a digital media ecosystem where we can have these conversations and where we can actually move

forward on these issues that are so critically important. Right, I just want to get this in there. Mean, first thing, we need legislation too. We we definitely and I hate to say this, but we're going to need legislation to help us. Um kind of you know, when this war, because that's what we're in now. We're in a disinformation war. Um, and the bad guys, I hate to say this, are winning. They really are because it's really easy, really really easy

to you know, to have platform manipulation. It's really easy to change opinions on social media. People do not understand just how easy it is because something you said, Um, you know, like I look at this tweet and it almost seems like it's tailored for me. Man, it is, it is. It is really easy. And I've done this experiment. I've actually done this experiment. It's really easy to craft a tweet to make it go viral. It's really easy

to craft a tweet to sparking emotion in a certain group. Um, whether you are l g B t Q plus, whether you are black, whether you're a woman, whether you're a male, whether you're an insult I don't what you are. If there are ways that you can craft tweets and if you do it the right time, at the right time of the day, and you use the certain keywords, it's going to go viral. Okay, almost every single time, it's going to go viral. Um. It's no different than marketing.

And there are there are people that are getting paid a lot of money. Uh, you know, they're they're bad actors to figure out ways of doing these things, and you know, they have their systems on how to make things go viral. How to you know, to manipulate this group of people to do x y and z um. So we need legislation number one UM to kind of

you know, I don't. I don't agree with this, this whole thing that like everyone needs to be verified because there are legitimate reasons why someone would not want to be verified. So I'm actually not against anonymous accounts. However, I am against accounts that are tending to be something else. So, you know, legislation, for example, preventing people from creating accounts for the sole purpose of platform manipulation could be one thing.

Because don't be mistaken, it's not just happening in Russia or you know, some other far off place. You have people here in the United States, groups of people that are creating fake accounts to manipulate whether it's you know, regarding elections, whether it's white supremacists that are trying to so discord within the black community, whatever it may be.

So that should be illegal number one. Um. And then the other thing is making platforms do more because they're just doing the bear the bear minimum And we all know this, anyone that's been on social media, you know, for the past month, maybe um know that the platforms are not doing enough. Um, So there needs to be legislation to kind of force them to do more or because why would they you know, why would Twitter, for example, remove ten thousand accounts when they don't have to, because

that's money for them. When you think about the state of our our media landscape, are you hopeful, like, like, do you think it's a lost cause? Do you think you know, it's just such a cess pool and these platforms are going to do anything and we're never gonna get useful legislation or are you hopeful that we'll get somewhere to make it possible to have meaningful subset of change. Right. Um, I think it's going to take a big event, a big event, you know, maybe like a terrorist attack where

and I always give this this example. There's really nothing stopping someone right now from using social media to to two. Say, for example, I'm gonna give you an example here. Um, let's say someone goes and they say, hey, yo, let's get a group of people. We're gonna we're going to make it look like that there are a bunch of black folks that are going around New York City and just stabbing people. And they go on social media and they start posting this stuff, and you know, they even

have videos of black folks stabbing people. Now you got but a bunch of Caucasian white folks. They're like, oh my god, there are black folks that are going around New York and they are stabbing people, you know, and now they're walking down the street and they're nervous, and all of this is a hoax. This whole entire thing is a hoax. But it's going viral. It's going viral on Twitter, it's going viral on Facebook, it's going viral, and it's everywhere and it's all fake. I can tell

you right now. There's nothing stopping this from happening right now. Um, because the platforms like Twitter and and and and they do, you know, like when stuff starts to get out of hand, they do take action, but they take action too late. Um, so you may have an hour or two that goes on before you know, goes by excuse me, before they take action. Um, that's more than enough. And we've seen

this before in the past. It's you know, if there's a mass shooting all of a sudden, you see like the same picture from like the last five mass shootings where they claim it's this guy or whatever, and then

that goes via, oh is this guy? Well, there's not anything really right now stopping anyone from you know, creating like a fake attack, which I will call it then you know, in a sense of terrorist attack where you're creating this this this this this fake you know the thing that's happening, and people are getting terrified because they think, oh my god, like they're black folks that are going around, you know, they're they're fed up and they're stabbing or

killing white folks and what are we gonna do and all this other stuff. Um, and that's just like a weird example that I gave, but you can clearly see how platform manipulation could go from something starting on Twitter or Facebook or wherever and then spilling into the real world. And we got in we actually have real real world

examples of that. Um you know, back in going into seventeen with the whole um Pizza Gate thing, where you know, you have that that individual who really thought Hillary Clinton was sex trafficking kids. Then we have won six Um a lot of that was organized online and it's spilled into the real world and you got these crazy people that were storming the capitol, you know. So there's nothing

stopping you know, someone else from doing this. An event like that, well then prompt legislators here in the United States to say enough is enough, we need to do something. Um. So I gave a long answer to say that, Yes, I do think legislation is coming. I do believe that things are going to get better. I do I think eventually, you know, people are gonna just say enough is enough and things are going to move in the right direction. And I do believe that platforms are going to be

forced to have to take action. UM So, you know, the question, I think the real question is not if what win? Are we talking another year? Are we talking five years? I don't. I don't have hopefully sooner rather than later, because I want to be out of business. I want bots and to be out of business. I want to be able to retire and not have to deal with you know, inauthentic accounts and bots and stuff.

I mean, wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to wait for some sort of you know, calamitous events, and people with power to make this change would just do it, Like, wouldn't that be great? Well, you know, something really quickly and we didn't talk about this, but really really quickly. So all right, So the platforms have been blocking you know, Russia and you know, they've been blocking certain areas and things of that of that nature,

and I've had people reach out to me. I've had journalists reach out and say, hey, have you noticed a decline and like trolling like this, things seem a bit quieter,

you know, all you guys noticing this. And I tweeted about that earlier and I said the short answers, Yes, there's definitely a decline over the last you know, like let's say, to the last three or four days of just like the vitriol and the trolling, I mean, because we were just seeing like a lot of stuff regarding Biden and Biden you know, he can't remember when he did yesterday, you know, just nonsense like that, and we've

definitely seen a decrease. Now, we've also seen an increase in accounts praising Vladimir Putin, and we've seen you know, fake accounts once again saying that Ukrainians are racist and it's a racist country. But overall, we've definitely seen a

decline in the trolling. You know, And I made a joke not on Twitter, this is personally and I'm just like, God, I wish it was like this every single day, Like I wish that you can go onto social media and actually interact with people and not have to deal with the constant trolling. So you we we we were getting a glimpse of what life could be like if the platforms were actually to take this more seriously. And we

deserve that. We deserve to be able to go on to our largest communications platforms and have a conversation without being trolled, without being harassed, Like we deserve that everybody deserves, absolutely, especially women and women of color, because at the end of the day, and we've provided data on this. Women are at the top of the list in terms of people who are constantly targeted and attacked, and women of

color are the number one. UM and it's and platforms do need to do better at at at you know, curtailing a lot of this stuff that's happening. But you're absolutely right. First thing, a platform like Twitter. Sometimes I get really disappointed with Twitter because Twitter, for me, you know, it's people will talking about like Facebook and you know, Instagram. I think Twitter is the most powerful platform on the planet.

I believe that to my core. And the reason behind that is because unlike other social networks, Um, Twitter can drive news cycles. You know Twitter, you know, I can put something out on Twitter into read something and it could be picked up by a major prop uh you know, outlet or publication or whatever. Um. You know, Joe Biden can go right now, President Biden can go and tweet something out about Ukraine and it will go viral. I mean it could literally start a war depending on what

he you know, tweets out. So you know, people are using Twitter and journalists and world leaders are using Twitter to get news and information and everything out and unlike Facebook and Instagram, it's a platform for in a hub for information period. So you would think with you know, with a platform like this, that the people on Twitter would say, hey, you know something, we really need to make this place a lot better because we're like where people go for serious news. You know, a lot of

people don't even go to that. They don't even have like cable anymore, or you know, they're not even like, you know, going and buying newspapers. Unfortunately, they're going to

Twitter to get their news. So you would think the folks that Twitter would say, hey, it's time for us to really take our own platform seriously, Like they're they're I hate saying this, and and and there's nothing wrong with the n f T s, but I'm just like, why are you focusing on n f T like profile images where you should be focusing on the rampid disinformation and harassment on your platform? Like who asks for n f T profile pictures? Literally every time they released something,

I'm like, who asked for this? Why don't you focus on You've got a lot on your plate in terms of making a fun, safer and better, Like, why don't you focus on that? I don't understand it. Like when I saw that, I was just like, who asked for this? You know? So I mean, look, I understand what my

needs may be and what your needs may be. Maybe a little bit different from what the developer needs maybe, um, but they need to really sit down with folks and get an idea of what their platform really is about to other people. And I know, look, not everyone uses Twitter for news and things like that. There are people on there who are just doing their thing. I get that. But Twitter can definitely drive new cycles and because of that, the folks that Twitter need to to to do more,

you know, they definitely need to do more. Well hopefully. I think that your work is really creating the conditions for them to really see that. I think that's very clear to me. And it sounds like you don't agree you know something. Um, I'm sorry and I completely apologized to cut you off. Um. I think I think our work for you know, the general republic and journalists and stuff like researchers. I think they look at our work and obviously want us to continue, and they, you know,

value what we're doing. Twitter on the other hand, UM, I think we're kind of a thorn sometimes in their side, because we expose a lot of things that they probably don't want to be exposed. Um. So you know, I'm not saying Twitter would love for us to disappear. I'm not going to say that because I do believe they also find value in what we're doing. Um, but I think they probably would like it if we're like less effective at what we're doing. Something tells me you don't

have any plans to become less effective? No, no, not at all, not at all. Well, Christopher, this has been such a good conversation. Where can people keep up with all of your work? Oh? Um? Well, first thing, you know, our website is bought Bot Sentinel s E N T I in e L dot com. Um, they can follow me. I'm at see bou z y. Um that's Twitter. And yeah, I mean, look like I said, I use my account to try to educate people, and you know, I'm I'm

very vocal about things. Um, I don't hold my tongue. Um. So you know, if you want to follow me on Twitter and learn more about this stuff and other issues as well, you can do that. But if you're just more focused on our technology, you can go to the website. People of Color in Ukraine deserve to make their voices heard without having to compete with disinformers and bad actors

on social media platforms to do so. And we all deserve a digital media landscape that can be used to get authentic, accurate information about what's happening in our world, especially during a crisis. We all deserve better. You can help support black students in Ukraine and find more resources that Black Women for Black Lives. Go to Black Women for Black Lives dot org or click the link in the show description and we'll be continuing the conver station

around what's happening in Ukraine later this week. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi, You can be us at Hello at tang godi dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangdi dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer, Terry Harrison as our producer,

and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you

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