Just a quick heads up. This episode briefly mentions both suicide and sexual assault. Well, you'll notice that a lot of the challenges is that they tend to on some level, usually focus on an issue that we are as a society. Feeling a lot of anxiety about textual school shootings, suicide and mental health assaulting teachers. Those sorts of things are anxieties that we as a society have. There Are No
Girls on the Internet. As a production of I Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Tod and this is there Are No Girls on the Internet, nationals lab of Teacher Day, National School Shooting Day, the blackout Challenge. You've probably heard of these challenges that supposedly originate on TikTok, encouraging young people to harm themselves, others or spread panic about harm being done to them. But what's behind these challenges and what happens when concern around social media platforms
like TikTok turns into a moral panic around technology. To find out more, I turned a friend of the show Abby Richards. Well, Abby, it is so nice to have you back. You are a friend of the show. We love being able to talk to you for folks who may not be familiar with you. Tell us who you are. Yeah, my name is Abby Richards, and I'm an independent miss
and disinformation researcher who focuses on TikTok. You are someone I know that I can always count on for like a sobering, kind of like clearheaded breakdown of what's happening on TikTok, which I think is so important because the platform can be so it can just be information overload coming at you all the time, you know, So it's like nice to have someone who can actually wade through it and break it down. I am relieved to hear
that you feel like I am clear headed. So necessarily I look at TikTok and it's just so vast and huge that even as someone who studies it professionally, sometimes I'm like, I don't have a full understanding. I'll never have a full understanding of this chaotic mess of an app that we have to deal with and all of its beauties and downfalls and little niche cultures. Um, but I try my best. So I think you do a
great job. But actually that's like a great place to start, which is that you really like TikTok is your platform. It's the platform that you study professionally in terms of disinformation research, and it's also where you make a lot of your content educating folks about disinformation and conspiracy theories. But you're also someone who is pretty honest about some
of the dangers and downfalls inherent in the app. What is that like to sort of have this this platform that is in some ways so rich and allows you to to tell stories and reach people and educate folks in such interesting ways, but on the other hand, does have its laws should should be looked out with a little bit of scrutiny like any other platform. It's a love hate relationship. I I I mean, I'm the first admit that I benefit from TikTok. I mean I have
a platform there. I've found that it's been an incredibly useful tool in educating people and creating resources where people can go, uh to learn about these very complex issues like there there is room for a nuance on TikTok and there is room for learning on TikTok. Uh. That is not to say that it has no hitfalls whatsoever. There are so many strengths of TikTok offers as far
as communication in education in community building. And then there's also so many weaknesses when it comes to how the algorithm chooses for you what you see, and the types of content that go viral the most easily, and the types of rhetoric that encourages so I see both sides of the coin. The ubiquity of social media platforms like TikTok have given rise to panics around so called challenges and trends, trends that stoke fear in young people and
their parents. Now, this kind of thing is nothing new. When I was a kid, we grew up freaked out about things like razor blades and Halloween candy, or gang members flashing their headlights to mark you for an attack. But with the rise of social media, these kinds of trends can spread much more quickly than they ever could just being whispered about in the cafeteria. In April of last year, I saw video circulate on TikTok responding to
videos calling a day in April national Rape Day. Basically, everyone was upset and panicked about alleged videos declaring that
on this day rape was legal. Only a TikTok spokesperson said that no such video ever really existed, there were only users making videos responding with decrying National Rape Day or sharing warnings and tips on how to stay safe, and in responding, they were only legitimizing this hoax, from kids being kept home from school to wasting law enforcements time and resources panic around These challenges that start online
can create real world disruptions. I know the very first time I ever encountered a sort of dubious quote unquote challenge or or like thing on TikTok, I think it was National Rape Day, where it was like, yeah, that was the first time, and you know, I work for a gender justice organization, So when I saw that, my first instinct was, this is horrible. We need to reach out to TikTok. We need to make sure that, you know, they take this down. They need to know about this.
But then, you know, looking at it, it was a situation where I almost kind of got a little bit duped by something that maybe wasn't a legitimate, organically grown quote unquote challenge or day or you know, you know,
content stream on the platform. But I like, in talking about it was sort of helping to legitimize it, helping to make it something that maybe felt like a legitimate thing, even though it wasn't Yeah, National Right Day for those who don't know, it was allegedly April, and the idea going around was that there was some group of essentially evil men out in a group chat somewhere planning to all go out and rape on that I believe it
was a Saturday, uh April. And aside from the fact that that is really just not at all how sexual assault works and is not how it's perpetrated against victims, um, it was also something that we really just awareness videoed into existence. There was no evidence of this initial threat at all, but because everybody went, oh, well it might be a threat, it might be a problem, might be a problem, then they I'll start turning around and sharing
it everywhere just as a warning. And then we end up in a position where millions and millions of people felt afraid for their lives that day, like people didn't leave the house, and we saw the same thing just like happen all over again just a few months ago with the National School Shooting Day, where tons of kids were then absent from school because of a threat that
no one could ever even find. Yeah, I mean I I National School Shooting Day, I saw that on my local news like that like was, as you said, like awareness quote unquote into existence. And I think you're absolutely right that I imagine that for some of the people who are sharing this, they're doing it out of genuine concern for wanting to keep people safe. But maybe it's difficult to see that in doing that, you're actually helping to create more of a panic that wouldn't be there otherwise.
I do think that it's like people just out of our abundance of caution, trying to raise awareness but not realizing that if we all collectively do that, he it spreads panic and be it can be incredibly disruptive, right like if if everybody keeps their kids home from school because they're afraid of this national school shooting Day that they saw on television, that's concredibly disruptive for the school day.
And you know, we should really give pause to the fact that platforms like TikTok can be this force where you can have these real world disruptions, um, just from something that starts as like a rumor or a fabrication. Yeah, absolutely, I think the disruptions are worth like accounting for, um when we create panic and also the way that they
tend to perpetuate our misconceptions about oftentimes violence and mental health. Um, what you'll notice that a lot of the challenges is that they tend to on some level usually focus on an issue that we are as a society feeling a lot of anxiety about sexual assault, school shootings, suicide, and mental health, assaulting teachers. Those sorts of things are anxieties that we as a society have and we need to be doing a lot of work to address those like major, large,
enormous issues. And then this challenge comes along and whatn't easy and simple answer it provides of like, Oh, they're just doing this because they saw a TikTok about it. It's it's it's not a massive societal problem that's been around for years and has existed long before the emergency social media. No, this is because of kids these days
on social media. Oh, it's so true. And I think, especially when we look at the fact that so many of these challenges are based around like look around localized, around youth or schools, I think we're in this moment where we're, as you said, having this like national existential crisis of what's happening in our schools where people are the you know, stoking a lot of panic around it. I'm sure that it's probably not a super fun time to be a public school educator right now. And I
think it's no wonder what we're seeing. All of these challenges purport to will be localized around something happening at schools because it's an anxiety that we're not really talking honestly or thoughtfully about and other other you know kinds of discourse. And so this very simplistic thing of like, oh, it's the kids on those phones. He's always on that phone. That's what's happening. It's such a simple way to talk about something that is sometimes big and scary and complex
to talk about. Yeah, it really offers a very similar thing to a conspiracy theory. Can you take a big problem something like, for instance, the assaulting of teachers while they're working, which should not be happening under any circumstances. They are teachers, they should not be assaulted, um, but they are, like they do face violence in their classrooms.
And then we say, oh, well, it's part of this tap talk challenge and slap a teacher month challenge, and that doesn't actually help teachers to stay safe because we're not addressing any of the actual issues that have led to them having to work in an unsafe environment. We're just pointing a finger at a social media trend that we can't even find. Yeah, I mean, and that's such a good segue into how this conversation. So I learned
about these fake challenges from from following you. Then I got this, Yeah, because I I guess I would they. I almost learned how to like self regulate around them. That like it's entirely possible that it's just a fabrication, and that in get in amplifying it, I am helping it grow. Like it kind of like inspired me to take a moment to think through the implications because yeah, that national rape date thing like it, I was moved by that, But your work really helped me put it
in active. I guess I'll say, oh, thank you. That means a lot. That whole week like really is what
ended up. I was already doing a lot of TikTok as information research, but I really ended up pushing me full time because uh me and my coworkers Idea were so stressed having to watch millions of people believe something that there was no reason for them to be panicking over And I mean there was also just so much uncritical news coverage of it, and that is a huge part of the problems, uncritical news coverage and uh, law enforcement and sometimes when they're involved school boards as well
amplifying these without evidence. Oh, let's talk about that, because you know, I mentioned that I saw on my local news a segment about school shooting day. What do you think the role of local especially local news media is in spreading these kinds of dubious challenges, Like when they just sort of uncritically report on it, you know, maybe like they almost never include someone saying, actually, we have
no evidence that this is actually a real thing. It's just this sort of uncritically like here's what people are upset about and we don't know. What role do you think that news media plays and helping these panics spread.
I mean, they really helped to start lighting the fire, especially when it comes to like if the thing is just on TikTok right now, when it comes to getting adults involved in the conversation, then the parents involved and law enforcement involved and start getting it that information outside of just a single echo chamber and really spreading into other ecosystems. I think local news plays a huge role
in that. And one of the tactics, as you kind of said, but one of the tactics they use, and we also see the click baked stories, is that they don't say, like there is a hoax happening on TikTok and we can't find evidence for it. They just say TikTok is full of claim saying that April is National
Day without and that's the headline. So right, a lot of people aren't even going to read the story even if they did include a disclaimer that like they there's no evidence of this, but the whole story just relies on like well people on TikTok are saying this. It's like can you please fact check it? Critical conference please, and like that should be that should be the bare minimum, right, Like I think about that quote, I'm sure I'm gonna
butcher it because I'm awful up quote. But what is It's not a reporter's job if if someone says it's raining, it's a reporter's job to look out the window and let the termine if that is true, not just a print that somebody said it's raining. And I guess I wish that that local media and not all media. But I guess I see local media really as a you know,
culprit here. Um, I wish they would do a little bit better of a job, and I wish, you know, oftentimes these stories they rely on law enforcement, and it'll be it'll be like maybe somebody contacted law enforcement, and it will be like, we'll report it as law enforcement is aware of the situation, and and by including that it adds no further you know, fact check of what's going on. But I do think it adds a level of like, well of legitimacy, whiles like, oh, well, law
enforcement is aware of the situation. It could be that law enforcement has no has not been able to verify any of these these claims as fact, But they don't really say that. They just I thought they just the way that they use law enforcement sometimes is incredibly damaging,
I think to to the truth. Yeah, Oh, you'll see them insert a Facebook poster or a tweet from some some police department somewhere, and that gives legitimacy to the claim too, because the police department addressed it via social media and now they can hyperlink that in their stories. Um, and I see this also coming from I have a deep love for local journalism. I grew up with the mother who was the editor of our local town newspaper and was always hanging out in the office like I
love look like, yes, give me more small town journalism. Um. I think a lot of the problems since from when we aren't funding it and we don't give it the credit it deserves, so that they are encouraged to write cheap stories like this and they don't have the time to actually give it the due diligence that it deserves. Yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned that, because I do think it's an issue of like under like underserving local media.
And we we do have like a critical crisis in this country of just the decimation of of of local especially journalism and media. And that's so important, Like that's how you find out what's going on in your kids school, That's how you find out like what's happening in your neighborhood, like on your block. And so the way that we've
just underserved it and undersupported it is horrible. But I also think a real is really indicated by what we're talking about today, that know, you put your put up a quick, cheap story that doesn't really get the facts, but does get people panicked and upset like I get it. Yeah, in in this capitalist economy, I totally get Let's take a quick break at our back. Who's to blame for
the panic around TikTok challenges? Well, unsurprisingly partially Facebook. Last month, The Washington Post reported that Facebook and TikTok were in what they called a bare knuckle fight for younger users. Facebook hired Targeted Victory, one of the country's largest republican consulting firms, to orchestrate a nationwide campaign to turn the
public against TikTok. The Post published a series of damning emails about how Targeted Victory, working on behalf of Facebook, tried to stoke controversy around TikTok by placing op eds critical of TikTok and newspapers in major news markets and stoking anger around so called dangerous TikTok challenges and trends. Writing. Targeted Victory urged partners to push stories to local media time TikTok to dangerous teen trends in an effort to show the apps purported harms any local examples of bad
TikTok trends or stories in your markets. A Targeted Victory staff are asked dream would be to get stories with headlines like from dances to danger. How TikTok has become the most harmful social media space for kids. The staffer wrote. They even circulated a Google dot called bad TikTok Clips was linked to pretty dubious local news stories that cite TikTok as the origin of dangerous teen trends, despite the
fact that some of those trends actually originated on Facebook. Now, I hate this tactic because essentially it's Facebook intentionally trying to stoke fear and panic for their own corporate interests in a way that takes attention away from actual social
media issues that really do need scrutiny. So I have to ask, I mean, I in the reporting from the Washington Post, I was, I guess a little surprised to see that so many of these TikTok stories, these negative sort of so called challenges and things, were actually being planted by Facebook slash metas pr firm Targeted Victory, where they were getting folks to write up eds and important
congressional districts about the dangers of TikTok on youth. Um, how they would get local media to to run these stories of these dangerous so called challenges when in fact, there was a lot of evidence that some of these challenges actually if if they started anywhere, that like the rumor might maybe started on Facebook to begin with. Yet
Facebook is really invested in making TikTok look bad. You know, it's one of those things where it's like my least favorite story in all of tech journalism to cover is like to two big companies going at it. But it does seem to be there as some level of that here. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I can understand why Facebook, I'm so sorry, meta meta uh, feels threatened by TikTok. I mean, they're the most downloaded app for the last three years running.
There's they're clearly offering something that people enjoy and are arguably addicted to. I feel like I might be a bit addicted to it, uh, And you know, young people are gravitating towards it, So I understand why they would take that approach in trying to smear it in the public's eye as some sort of dangerous threat. Um. I just I don't think that they're entirely wrong. I think that there's a lot of issues with all different social
media platforms. It's just the dangerous that TikTok isn't challenges
that nobody is doing. Yeah, I mean, in some ways, do you think that in how it inflated some of these nonsense dangers that they say are on the platform of TikTok, we're actually overlooking some of the legitimate dangers that could be on platforms, all social media platforms, but TikTok especially, Like you know, there are so many things that happened on TikTok or Michael that's probably not great, like young people over young people trying to diagnose themselves
with mental issues, and then you know companies that sell like private companies that sell medication for those issues advertising to them on the platform. There are kinds of legitmity. TikTok is its own can of worms. Yeah, And so I think, like there are legitimate things to be concerned about, and I think when we allow for the conversation to be dominated by things that are just nonsense, we're not
talking about the things that are legitimate concerns. Like I've done research into how engaging exclusively with transphobic content on TikTok pushes a user into this far a rabbit hole where they're also exposed to first of all, more transphobia, but also homophobia and misogyny and racism and white supremacy and anti semitism and conspiracy areas and cost of violence like all of those things can also be found on
TikTok um. And I think that the ideas that TikTok is able to place in your brain are probably more dangerous than challenges that it is supposedly encouraging you to do. That's at least how I interpreted. Is like the way that it impacts our society at large and what we believe and how we approach our beliefs, that has way more significance then whether or not kids are holding their breath for as long as possible. Yeah, it's I mean,
I'm definitely addicted to TikTok. Dude. I don't have to say this, but like, I'm on it way too much. I don't make TikTok myself, but I can scroll for hours and hours. And it is true that like I I'm I'm an adult, so like my brain is fully formed and when I see things, or Michael, that doesn't sound right, or like this seems to be pushing a dangerous narrative or a narrative that we should at least be concerned about. I'm able to just scroll up and
and know that. But I wonder what such a young user base, if young people were seeing that same thing that I'm seeing that I'm you know, old enough to be like, Okay, well this is obviously not true. We're like, this is dangerous, that's not some kind of that's not
a narrative I want to engage with further. I wonder, like, yeah, what it's like, what dangerous things are young people being exposed to and steeped in and thus being walked down on a line of engagement to sort of get further into you know, those are all legitimate questions about what's
happening on TikTok. Yeah, absolutely, I mean way to think about, like how popular conspiracy theories are on TikTok, and how conspiracy theories if we stop looking at them as individuals, when we look at them as a way to think about the world, and how if you engage with one conspiracy theory video, you're more likely to then be like, given more conspiracy theory videos. And it's not just teaching you that conspiracy theory, it's teaching you how to think
about the world in that way. And that's not helpful for building you know, a society full of engaged political citizens who want to make the world better, because you know, conspiracy theories fundamentally just push you to be less politically active. Uh and and you know, not really want to solve problems, just blame in an out group for them. So I worry about like that when it comes to how it teaches younger people to think, Yeah, that's a really really
good point. And I would say, sort of on the flip side of that one thing, I had one narrative I've seen on TikTok a lot that's really being driven by young people that I chef kiss love this idea of pushing back on climate doomism that I like, the young people on TikTok pulled me out of the I'm not even gonna say a conspiracy Like I formally believed that it was too late to act on climate and I now have come to see, thanks to young people on TikTok, that I was actually guilty of almost kind
of like a different kind of climate disinformation, right, because like the same way that it's climate disinformation to say that climate change is a hoax, it's also not necessarily true that it's too late we can't do anything. And I think that like the way that folks have used that platform to push back against that idea has completely brought me back from the break in a way that
I didn't know I was already I was at. I am so happy to hear you say that, because that has been a huge thing that we've been pushing for an eco talk and getting creators to push that sort of messaging, because you're right, it is. You know, there's there's uh several different types of climate change disinformation. There is denialism. There's also distraction and delay technics, but there's
also doomism. And and when you start thinking about climate change with the framework that it's too late to do anything, then you start going, well why bother? And fossil field companies are gonna absolutely love that that works. That plays right into their hands because if if it doesn't matter, then like why not just keep doing all the fossil fuel burning Anyways. Yeah, it's such a good point that like if it does remind me a lot of what
you said about conspiracy theories. Giving into them makes it okay to not act, It makes it okay, it makes you less engaged, not more engaged. And and that particular mistruth around climate climate doomisum gave me the license to not act for a while. And I'm so glad that you and folks at Eco talk are really doing a lot of work to change the conversation because if if you, if you give into the reality that like it's not too late, there is still time we could be doing
so much. That's that is what gets you in a headspace to be motivated to act and to lean in and to check in, not disengage. Absolutely, And I see that sort of uh, that narrative being applied to other realms as well, like you know, not giving up in the fight for reproductive rights and not giving up in the fight for racial equality. UM. I think that we see a lot of that pushback on TikTok. It is
a good space for that. And this is again like we're back in this position of like, oh god, there's so many goods happening on that app and there's so many bats, and I guess it's just kind of a microcosm of the world in general. More after a quick break. So if you've ever wondered I wonder what Bridget is up to when she's not making the podcast that I
have great news for you. We just launched a brand new news let where I'm gonna be writing about things I'm paying attention to online, interesting stories that didn't make it to the podcast, and a whole lot more. I promise you will never spam you. You can subscribe to our newsletter at tanodi dot com slash newsletter and it's gonna be like a useful newsletter. I promise you can also support the show by checking out our mark store at tanodi dot com slash store. Let's get right back
into it. When people give into things like moral panics, conspiracy theories, and conspiratorial thinking, it actually encourages us to check out. It provides a seductive reason to just stop caring because you don't really feel like anything that you could possibly do would actually make a difference if you've
already lost. You mentioned reproductive rights. I it's so interesting the days of that leaked draft of the Supreme Court opinion came down almost immediately you know, all of the disinformation, the reproductive rights disinformation books I know, circled the wagons, and the number one narrative that we saw almost immediately was, uh, abortion is illegal starting this means abortion is illegal starting now, starting today, And that's not true. You know, that was
just a draft decision. Who knows what's going to happen. But it's so interesting that the piece of disinformation misinformation that circulated instantaneously was that abortion is now illegal in the United States. And how if you were someone who had an appointment to get an abortion the next day, you might be motivated to stay home. We might be motivated to say, like, Okay, well, I guess that means I no longer had this appointment, or I guess that
means that I am out of options. And I'm sure that people who want to criminalize abortion in this country would love it if that's how you felt, because you're you're it's it's it's going to you know, keep you from exercising your constitutionally protected rights to an abortion. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean getting people to give up and not fight back does make their job whatever they're trying to push for. It does make it a lot easier m that's so true.
You know. One of my last questions for you. One of the things I in the Washington Post reporting about TikTok and Meta, Uh, it seems like young people done with Facebook. You know, I can't say that I blame anybody for it is being done with, done with you know, the platform. Why do you think that is? Why do you think you know they're just flocking from from Facebook
onto other platforms like TikTok. Oh. God, I think there's so many factors and I would need a lot of data to back up any hard claims that I made. I still see some some young people using Instagram, um, but not so much like really nobody is using Facebook um. And I think it probably speaks to like the ways that we use social media, either as entertainment or as
communication um. And how that's shifting. Like Facebook was originally built for keeping up with your friends and then kind of at it in pages and sharing, and it's it's more about that network with this larger group that you've created, where something like TikTok is more personalized feed that gives you what you're interested in and then you can share that with your friends if you want. But I think it's just it's just more personalized, um, and it just
needs a different need. Yeah, I think that's I think you think you're onto something. I know for me Facebook and to a lesser extent Instagram, but a little bit as well. It just feels very scammy now. It just feels like it's full of ads for products that maybe are not super legit. I got totally suckered by a Facebook ad to by this purse, and I kept seeing these ads over and over and over again. I'm actually gonna grab it for you so you can see me. Okay, okay,
I love this. Okay, So I thought, ads, we're following me all around for this purse. I eventually bought it. Took a month to come. Look how tiny this person is. It's that cell phone. The handle is so outrageously big exactly. And all I can think was, is Facebook just a platform for scams? Now marketplace scams and stuff? I just felt I will never buy another thing that I see on Facebook ads ever again. And it just made me feel that platform was just a place for scammy marketing.
And I guess i I strictly there's some of that on TikTok as well in other platforms, but I guess i'd just be like Facebook, and I don't know what it wants to be. I don't know what role that's trying to play anymore in my life. Well, it was an Instagram is really trying to become literally a shop, Like they really are just trying to sell you things
and the whole Instagram. This is just my theory. But with the switch from Instagram to TikTok in popularity, I think it's really interesting and it says something about like our drive or desire for authenticity in our relationships with like influencer is because the Instagram influencers are very aesthetically nice to look at, Like that's all well and good, but TikTok is like having a FaceTime conversation with somebody, even if you're they're never gonna hear what you have
to say back, Like millions people might be looking at their face, but it feels so intimate and really it does let your personality to shine through. Um that's how to say pretty privilege is not a huge part of who goes viral, but personality also matters. Yeah, I've noticed this, and it's also one of those reasons why I think that people who had were like nailing it in terms of being influencers on Instagram by being so aesthetically pleasing.
That doesn't really translates all the time. Like you still like on TikTok, you need to be charming or funny or engaging or authentic, like people have to want to connect with you. Just being hot doesn't really cut it. Again, there are people who like their TikTok's will be you know,
do numbers just because they're good looking. So it certainly happens on the platform, but I do it gets a platform where you have to sort of bring a different side of yourself, and I think it's really challenged a lot of people who have made their their platform on something else that's something aesthetically pleasing. Yeah, it's just a
different type of marketing. It's you're not marketing what's a pretty picture now, and you're more marketing your personality and how you can sell something using your personality, which you know might have more room for exploitation. So that's fun. I know, either way we cut it, we're being exploited, whether it's like, oh but because we look a certain way, or because our genuine personality is being exploited to push whatever the hell like, it's exploitation. It's exploitation no matter
how you slice it. I'm sure it's just like it's my our my looks better for selling clothes or is my personality like better for selling bang energy? Also, wait, this is just a quick it to the challenges again because there's a statistic that I need to give you because I brought it here and I just have to share it because it's just too interesting. Um So, do
you know the blackout challenge? I do like this challenge that's supposedly kids are seeing a TikTok that is encouraging them to hold their breath until they can pass out. So and a lot of the news coverage about it will point to the death of there's two instances of young children dying because of this sort of like holding
your breath challenge. But what is also interesting is that a C is like a CDC study identified ad two probable choking game deaths among kids age six to nineteen from thousand and seven, which is long before TikTok ever was a part of the picture. There are more happening as this game that's part of our culture beyond just what's being told to us on social media. And I think that's so interesting and I'm obsessed with that statistic now, Yeah,
it's it's such a clarified statistic. I'm in my thirties and we certainly had I think we called it the choking game, right, like that was a yeah, that's what you called it. That was before TikTok or social media was ever a thing. This idea that it's a new danger that is being presented to children on their phones, it's just not true. Yeah, Like literally two children died
bet two thousand and seven from this game. It's it's horrific, Like it's a completely unnecessary death and not a healthy thing for us to do to our brains, even if we don't die. Um, but it's not new, And I think a lot of these panics often center around something that like is a much larger problem and not new. Oh yeah, they're not new. And it really just collapses these big, complex issues into such simplistic terms. It's fascinating. I couldn't believe I was lucky enough to even find
that statistic. I didn't know that it existed. Ah, But I do feel like it sheds light on how we frame our social media challenges as somehow new when they've been around in our culture for for decades. Absolutely, I'm so glad that you that's that. It's fascinating. It's yeah, very very sad, very fascinating. Um. The challenge I've been dealing with all days, the Labello challenge, which you probably haven't seen yet. This is so it's it's in. It's
all in French. Um, it's a TikTok chat TikTok challenge. I'm using air quotes that you use like labello chapstick every time you feel sad, and then when you run out to the end of the two you you take
your own life. And it's going like the Ministry of the Interior tweeted about it last week, like they tweeted and which gave so much credibility to this challenge that completely misunderstands why somebody would take their own life, like they are not killing themselves because social media said to do it at the end of their chapstick to like they're doing it because they're in pain and don't feel like they have somebody to go to. And it's so infuriating.
And I've been this is what I've been doing with like all day trying to debunk it and understand like where it came from. It's just like you wonder why your kids won't go to you about your feelings, but then your understanding of mental health seems to be so limited that you think that they would kill themselves because of the TikTok trend. And it's like, I kind of get why they feel like they can't talk to you.
And like, if you were a young person who was struggling with suicidal ideation, and this is what the adults in your in your life or in your atmosphere, we're telling you that they believe about what you might be feeling.
I can imagine that being incredibly isolating. And you know, and again it's kind of goes back to what you were saying that it's probably so much easier to think, you know, youth youth suicide is being fueled by this social media trend and then have it end there as opposed to, you know, youth suicide and youth mental health issues are being fueled by a complex network of issues that are systemic and personal that we need to talk
about and solve. Why get why you know, grapple with that which is complex and big and scary and complicated and you know, feels unsolvable. Are you can just be like, it's the phones, it's the technology. It's yeah, it provides
a very simple answer. Uh. And I mean also the way that social media, and this is for all platforms, like I think we saw this a lot with Tumbler, We're seeing it a lot with TikTok, and they become spaces where people can talk about their struggles with mental health and things like you know, suicidal ideation, things like
eating disorders. And it's this weird gray area because it's not necessarily against like the guidelines of the platform um and it's potentially a space where they can find support and find community. But it also might be glorifying those types of behaviors. Um, it might be making them more prevalent. It's just one of those things that we don't know yet and we still need a lot more research into.
But it's certainly not like black and white, good and bad like that people on social media do have spaces where they are talking about these things. And then imagine that the adults get wind of some meme you made about how you're feeling horrible, and their response is to just like take away your phone and take away the
place where you do have community. Uh that makes me nervous. Yeah, I mean it goes It really goes back to what you were saying about how these platforms, on the one hand, it can be such a great place to build community and have these conversations around discovery and all of that and feel less alone, but that they also can present this like very dangerous landscape as well. It's like you really it's it's I don't know what we do with that.
It feels very unsatisfied, but I guess that's what it is. Yeah, I don't have a very satisfying answer for that, because sometimes the community is simultaneously like providing support and being toxic, and what do you do? I don't, I don't know. That's why I'm like more research. I guess. Well, remember I feel like more research is like always like a good place to start maybe always definitely a good starting ground if you don't know the answer at all, You're like,
can we at least commission some research on it? Oh, well, I'm glad that folks like you are doing that research, you know, I'm I'm obviously so grateful for you I'm so excited that you're working on your thesis. Thank you. When I've done, I'm gonna make you. Maybe I'll come back on and be like, can I just read my whole thesis? Do you want to all open invitation? I definitely do, so let's let's let's keep me keep me posted on the on when that's done, definitely will do.
Where can folks follow all the amazing stuff that you're up to. Yeah, I'm on TikTok at topology, I'm on Twitter at Abby s r and Instagram at Abby s r um and uh, I guess wait for my thesis to drop, but we're talking about it like it's a mixtape. It is. I'm gonna put the whole thing on SoundCloud. Yeah, the hot the hottest pieces of the summer airhorns. Check out my SoundCloud. It's me reading all a hundred pages
in monotone to you. And now it is time for another installment of our newsletter column Dear Internet, where I take your Internet questions, conundrums, etiquette concerns and answer them to the best of my ability. So if you want to get more of these, subscribe to our free newsletter at tangobi dot com slash newsletter where you can submit your questions and you might even hear them on the air.
Here's today's question, Dear Internet, my sister is used with filters and apps like face tune when she posts pictures on social media. I barely recognize her, to the point where it's a running joke with our friends and family. We joke with her about it, but you know, to each their own. Except when she posts pictures of us together, she face tunes and filters everybody in the photo, including me. Recently, she posted a family picture on Instagram and she added
agregious filters to everybody, including my preteen daughters. Now it's one thing if my sister doesn't mind stickers behind her back regarding her use of filters, but do we all have to be included every time she posts a picture? So I wanted to share this letter because she is
not alone. According to research by Dove, the girls that they surveyed how to use an app like face tune to change the way they look in photos by the age thirteen, and in some cases, young people are even getting cosmetic surgery to look more like they're digitally face tuned and filtered. Cell that keep in mind don't actually exist. And I also think this is an interesting question because I don't really think there's a hard and fast answer
around it. To be clear, I'm not really comfortable with the idea of any adult filtering and face tuning a child, because we should let kids be kids, we should let them understand that their looks are not everything. But when we're talking about adults, I think it gets a little bit murkier. Not to be clear, I have not always been above using a little bit of a filter or face tune every now and then. You know, if you've got a big ZiT and a picture and you want
to just zap it out, I've done that. And I also think I was really using Instagram a lot during this era of the Instagram influencer, when there was this real pressure I think for all of us to look perfect and air brushed on Instagram, because that was what the app was telling us got engagement. And so if you wanted to get a lot of engagement on the app, the best way to do that was to post a
really polished, filtered photo of yourself. And I'm not going to sit here and act like I have not done that myself, but as I've gotten older and really like these kinds of apps have played less and less of a role in my life. I really don't care that much anymore. I'm not going to sit around and face tune and filter a bunch of photos. And also, I just think it's important to show up as yourself. You know, this is what a thirties something your old woman looks like.
You know, why lie about that? But I also think we need to leave room for the fact that not everyone feels that way. I don't be garage anyone using any of the apps at our disposal to look and feel their best. I think it's a really personal thing. And so that said, the idea that it's a personal thing, I think it really warrants a frank conversation with your sister. You know, she might very well see face tuning and filtering your photo when she posts them as being polite.
You know, if I'm gonna touch up my photo, it's it's rude to not touch up my sister's photo as well. Maybe she feels bad about the idea of posting a photo where in her mind she has perfected herself and she's keeping you natural. So I think that it's important to not assume malintent around why she's filtering your pictures so much. But I also think it's a personal thing.
You know, you should be able to have a little bit of say around how you show up digitally, even on her feed, and so I think if you're close, it warnts a real conversation about her motivations and just being really clear about where your comfort level lies. And listeners, I really want to hear what you think about this. Do you use filters and face tune on your photos? How would you feel of a friend or family member? Added one for you. Subscribe to the newsletter and let
me know. At tangodi dot com slash Newsletter, We've got brand new merch and then there are no girls on the Internet store. So one of the most consistent themes on this show is that technology is not neutral. It actually reflects the same systemic privileges and disadvantages that we see elsewhere in society. So we've got a brand new design that says just that technology is not neutral. Check it out on our website at tangodi dot com slash store and take advantage of a thirty store wide sale
on all merch for the next three days. And y'all know I love a discount. Go to pang godi dot com slash store to support the show and treat yourself to some new merch Trust me, you deserve it. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi? You can re us at Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangodi dot com. There Are No Girls
on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from I heeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.