Self managed abortion is a tech issue - Stuff Mom Never Told You

And what's really gross and fucked up to me is that Elito based it on a thoroughly debunked anti choice extremist talking point about abortions being a tool to control black populations. And he also went out of his way to set the stage for this opinion to service the basis for undermining other rights in the future, like marriage equality and interracial marriages, at a time when the rights of people of color are queer folks and trans folks

are already very much under attack. Now, this opinion is completely outrageous, but it is still just a draft until the final Supreme Court decisions come out in June, so that means for now abortion is still legal, and I know things are awful. I'm angry, I'm scared, I'm exhausted, and I am willing to bet that you are too. But it is not all bad. The good news is that this leaked opinion gives us time to mobilize donate money to abortion networks by going to Abortion Funds dot

org or Tango dot com slash donate. People all over the country depend on abortion funds and their difficult work is about to get even harder, so you can really make a difference by supporting their critical life saving work. And the second piece of good news is that in December, the f d A permanently eased rules on abortion pills, making it easier to access pills online through telemedicine, which will become even more important if and when ROW is overturned.

Abortion pills are safe and effective. That's why, though tempting using scary images of coat hangers to talk about Row being overturned isn't really accurate or all that helpful, you can visit plan c pills dot org for help finding abortion pills in all fifty states. Access to abortion pills is an issue that has huge tech implications because even

though abortion pills are safe. The real fight in states that criminalized self managed abortion is now about online surveillance, both surveillance of people who need abortions and people who help others get abortions. Things like online search histories and chats have been used to create digital paper trails to

criminalize accessing abortion pills online. I enjoined my friends Sam and Annie at the podcast stuff Mom Never Told You to discuss the tech implications of accessing abortion pills via telemedicine and why it's a win for abortion rights at a time when frankly, I think we could all really use one. Everybody is is to have autonomy over their own body, access to healthcare, access to abortion care if

they need it. Even the conversation I feel is we shouldn't even have to be fighting for stuff like this.

But you know, in the fight for abortion rights that can be very negative, very taking many, many many steps back, and so I do think it's important to, you know, highlight when we have something that is not all happening, and this is actually something I think I've seen it in the headlines, and I know you and I talked about it bridget a while back, several years ago, and I not, I didn't really know much about the abortion pill, so can you can you tell us what it is

and how it works? Absolutely so. According to Planned Parenthood, the so called abortion pill is a popular name for two different medicines used to end a pregnancy, miffor pretty zone and another one, myso pro satol. So pregnancy needs the hormone called pro estrogen to grow normally, and miffor pretty zone blocks your protty's own pro estrogen. And so basically it's just a combination of pills that you take

to induce an abortion. Yes, And I know, like you know, this conversation isn't only limited to the US, was it Ireland?

Had it somewhere? Had a similar kind of conversation with Scotland and ay, you and I we did that whole episode about UM the changing rules in the UK because the United States and so this is definitely a global issue and issue where like other countries and other regions have different standards of the legality of how pregnant people can access this kind of medication to get the abortion

care they need. Yeah, and one of the things that we talked about in that episode was also tele medicine UM and being able to get it and like from the comfort of your own home, and how I'm pooring that was for a lot of people for this um, So, can you share the history of this kind of abortion care via telemedicine in the US? Totally? So tell a medicine if you don't know what that is is basically when you access your doctor through the internet through your

phone through video conferencing. That's kind of like the thing for me that makes this kind of a tech story is that people have been relying on that kind of technology enabled healthcare for a really long time. So abortion via telemedicine has been available in the US since around two thousand and eight, when the first formal program began an eyewab, a patient and one clinic can confer via video conference with a doctor and another clinic and then

they would get their pills to induce an abortion. And that video conferencing element that satisfied a federal requirement that a doctor had to dispense the medication to induce an

abortion in a clinic office or hospital. And so that was a real instance where technology bridged that gap that satisfied this federal requirement that a doctor or dispense I'm using quotes around that this medication, and so there are so many reasons why that would be a huge deal for people who are pregnant or really anybody looking for any kind of healthcare. Because if you're someone who lives in a rural community or a remote community, you can't

always get to a clinic. Maybe there's not one close. Let's say you don't have a car. Let's say you're just a busy person with a lot on your plate and you can't physically go see a doctor. Telemedicine really is this thing that can really bridge that gap and bring the health care that folks need right into their homes, and so huge, huge deal. Unfortunately, opponents responded pretty quickly,

prohibiting abortion via telemedicine in twenty state. In the US, the FDA regulates medication abortion under a set of rules called the Risk Evaluation and Medigation Strategy or r e m S, which determines how and which doctors can provide

abortion toils to patients. There was this really interesting paper called sixteen years of Overregulation Time to Unburden myth Reprics publish in twenty seventeen in the New England Journal of Medicine UM we're leading clinicians and public health experts argued that the FDA restrictions were medically unnecessary, and a c l U attorneys noted that the leading medical groups, including the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, support making abortion

bills available by prescription at pharmacies. Um And here's a really good quote from one of the doctors. He says, overwhelming medical evidence and decades of clinical experience show medication abortion to be a safe and effective method to end pregnancy. There are simply no medical justifications for these restrictions, and they create a needless and harmful burden for women seeking in this care. And I think that really sums up

I feel what this conversation is about. It's about what happens when there are needless and undo burdens that separate people from the medical care and including abortion care that they need. This also reminds me of because a lot of what you talk about, Bridget has to do with, yes, the Internet and misinformation and disinformation. And I know we've had conversations around CPCs or Christis Pregnancy centers. How when you'll type you know, where do I get an abortion?

A lot of times, the results will be like the first results will be um d C PCs, and I can just imagine for people trying to get access to to this medication the same kind of issue there. And

then on top of that people have been arrested. Correct, Oh, absolutely, so the s I a legal team, a group of lawyers who specialized in people who have induced their own abortions, knows of twenty one people who have been arrested or prosecuted for ending their pregnancies outside of this medical setting that was required, you know, in terms of medication abortion or helping someone else do it. This actually might even be under accounted since they rely on news reports such fact.

These cases the charge is brought against people who self abord can range from child abuse, the abuse of a corpse, or failure to report death. Now, to be clear, none of the women were prosecuted for buying abortion pills specifically, but they note that buying pills online or even googling phrases like buy abortion pills online, can leave a paper trail that be used as evidence against them in a trial.

And so this is not something that is abstract like we in this country, people have been prosecuted for trying to induce abortions on their own via pills they get online. A famous case in twenty fifteen, Indiana woman named Pervy Patel was sentenced to twenty years in prison for feet aside after she allegedly used abortion pills that she ordered online. Prosecutors claimed that her feet is had been quote born alive and that she allowed it to die, but later

her conviction was overturned on appeal. So again we are talking about very real circumstances where this this right to access abortion care via pills via tel medicine online has been really a fraught thing that people have been prosecuted for trying to do. And you know, we have all of these instances where people have subjected themselves to unsafe, sketchy abortion pills be house of the undue burdens that have been put in place to prevent them from getting

access to the care they need. The case for the woman in Indiana, even though it's not related, kind of brings back the memories of what just happened in Alabama recently with a woman who lost the fetus wanting to have this spread baby, not trying to have an abortion, but got prosecuted with those same types of charges for neglect of a fetus, and I'm like, we all were horrified, and had it not been publicized, she probably would still

have remained in jail or prison. And it also takes me to what's happening in Texas As the Supreme Court is now allowing the bounty law. That's what I'm calling it. I know that's not what it's actually called for it to go. And I'm wondering how this is going to affect, uh, if people are trying to access abortion pills, and then we are you already said I believe that twenty states are not allowing for this type of access in anyway.

So I'm guessing Texas is one of those. I'm on siguessing Georgia is too that how this is going to affect even more so in trying to prosecute those with yours or those who are helping trying to get access at all. Yeah, it's a great question, and I think it really underscores just what scary dire times we are in.

You know, I remember talking to my mom about, you know, when she was coming of age, protesting for you know, abortion on her campus, trying to get access to birth control pills, and she once told me she was like, oh, when I was doing all of that back then, I knew at least when I had a daughter, she wouldn't have to sort of fight these same fights, that these fights would be over and done with. At the time my daughter was here, well talk about, you know, predictions

that didn't come true. She was wrong. Here I am her adult daughter still having to deal with this kind of stuff. And so we are in a really scary time for abortion access for anybody who cares about abortion access, and that should really be everybody, everybody, regardless of gender, should care about this. And so I agree with you. I I think that sometimes I'll see, like I think it was Chris Hayes who tweeted something, and I like

Chris Hayes. I'm not I'm not trying to like get down on him, but he tweeted about I think the Texas abortion bill, like, oh, I think that we're going to see miscarriage is being criminalized next, and it's like, I hate to break it to you, Chris Hayes, but we're there that happened, you know. This is exactly that same level of like, oh my god, we're still fighting

for access. We're still trying to have this conversation about bodily autonomy for those with yours is those who are non binary, like trying to figure out how to even have rights at all. Like honestly, seeing the news as I talked about it earlier, I was like, but but waiting for you know, they had to drop waiting for Oh no, it's gonna go fall apart. I'm trying to figure out how even how the FDA even came to this point, How did we get here, which is amazing,

but how well. I actually have an answer for you, which is like, as much as I hated COVID, we kind of have COVID to thank for this important change.

And so this new change, to be clear, Um, it's not going to impact everyone on every state, like you said, but the reason why we have it is because of COVID restrictions and so in during the pandemic, medical groups filed a lawsuit asking that the in person dispensing requirement be lifted because the pandemic meant that patients were faced with a greater risk of being infected um with coronavirus if they were visiting clinics in person to get pills,

and so a judge granted that request this that summer, but after a challenge by the Trump administration, of course, the Supreme Court reinstated the restriction. In March, medical organizations try it again right into President Biden end Vice President Harris. In April, the FDA decided not to enforce the in person requirement for the duration of the pandemic and allowed these pills to be mailed to folks. And again yesterday, the big decision is that that change, which at that

point was temporary, is going to be made permanent. And so, you know, the pandemic I hated, I hate it, obviously, but this is one of those things where I think that the people who were fighting for these regulars this regulation change really saw a way to be like, you know, it doesn't make sense to ask people to go in person to get the abortion care they need, particularly during a pandemic, and then being like and also, shouldn't we

just end it all together? You know, I really appreciate them kind of like the strategy of this, Yeah, you know, we gotta find your like you said, your wins and your chances where you can, and if it's a pandemic, well so could you go into just a bit more like what exactly this this ruling is means in terms of like, yeah, the states and how it's like specifically impacting different states, and um, just what does it all

meant totally? I want to make clear that, like, it is important to know that this will not impact everyone in every state. As you said, in nineteen states and mostly in the South and the Midwest, telemedicine visits for abortion are banned, and so that really, you know, there's really no change in those states. And and then you know, because everything is awful, and that because you know, the powers that be are constantly chipping away at our rights

and our our access to abortion care. Um, we do believe that conservative states are expected to pass other laws to further curtail the access to abortion pills. And so even though again I feel like this is a win, I want to be clear of that is not a win that impacts everybody. And so this means that people who live in states that do not allow telemedicine for abortion must travel to a state that does, although and this is kind of a weird point, they do not

have to visit a clinic. They may be in any location within that state for their telehealth visit, even inside of a car. They may receive pills at any address in that state. So again, it just seems like such a weird, obviously bull burden to be like, well, if you're in this state that does not allow for telemedicine

appointments for abortion pills, you can't get them. But if you drive to a state that does allow them, you can sit in the Wendy's parking lot and have a telemedicine and visit over your phone in your car, and then that's all good. That again, it just seems like it's really reveals that this is about putting ridiculous burdens and barriers to prevent people from getting the abortion care

they need. Like what if you don't have a car, What if you don't have the financial means to drive to another state, What if you have to work or already have kids and don't really have the ability to just like take a trip like this. It seems like such an obvious way to just prevent people from getting the care they need, And like, to me, it just like my bulls alarm goes off, like this is clearly it's like let's just make it hard for people to get the care they need. Yeah, I mean this is

such a like a much more superficial problem. But it reminds me of when I was a kid. Um we would drive to the border of Alabama and where I'm located in Georgia, and we'd right into the border. They'd be all these fireworks to say that. We would get all these fireworks and be like, but if they're legal in Georgia, my parents would be like, you can't sell them, but we could shoot them off. I'm like, that makes

no sense to me, That's absolutely right. I was making the same thing with like alcohol cells, you know, within the Southern states, like they were very restrictive unto a certain point, so people would cross borders to go get alcohol. So for the long time, Georgia couldn't sell it on Sundays, so people would go to Alabama like that would have

access to it. Again, this is very like less harmful than any of the stuff, but it is also very reminiscent of the fact that they are shutting down clinics in certain states and so therefore we have to access clinics maybe two or three states away. In general, and honestly, we've been watching what's happening with Poland as well, as they have had one of the harshest restrictions and bands

um in the world as well. It is fairly new and them talking about the fact that they're having to do essentially underground networks to get access to pills and to any type of reproductive health access by traveling across

country borderlines in order to get access. And yeah, that's exactly what's happening in that level of state wise for us that yes, for some of these they're gonna make it so difficult that you are you will have to plan as if, like you have to be away for a week to get a pill um in order to get any kind of access, and if you can't afford it, sorry, then you're not allowed it. Yeah, And so just like what's happening in Poland, we're seeing a bit of that

here in the United States. So states like California and New York states where you can access abortion pills via telemedicine, they've taken steps in recent years to further solidify access to abortion and they're expect to increase the availability of telemedicine for abortion pills, specifically to provide opportunities for folks and other states with these kinds of restrictions to obtain abortion pills by traveling to their state to get them.

And so we are seeing this thing where other states that allow this are probably going to be stepping up so that people specifically so that people who live in states that you know they can't access this can get them. And so it is it is a little bit like that. And you know, even though this is a win, we shouldn't have to be doing any of this just to get abortion care. Like nobody should have to jump through ridiculous hoops to get medical care that they need, and

so this is no different. And so I think of this as a win, but I just I have to keep harping on that that we shouldn't have to be fighting this way and like celebrating these sort of like incremental tooth and nail winds for something that like should just be a right that everybody should have. Yeah, and these pill leased abortions are actually pretty common, right, that's

and so especially in the pandemic. The tele Abortion Project, which is a research program authorized by the FDA to conduct tele medicine appointments and male pills, has heard from many people and they're saying that they have really seen from folks using their services that people are really stepping up the amount that they are seeking these kinds of

services since the pandemic. Elizabeth Raymond. She said that of the two thousand and eighties three abortions provided under the program between July and October one, more than a third, seven and fifteen occurred during the pandemic, and that really

mirrors what the CDC has found. The CDC found in twenty in some states, including Indiana, Kansas, and Minnesota, the methodic pill based abortions accounted for the majority of abortions according to state Health Department records, and the CDC also found that seventy of abortions occurred before the ten weeks gestation period, suggesting that there are many, many, many more people who would probably choose abortion pills over an in

clinic procedure if they could. Another great resource, Oftion on Demand, which is an online platform that provides position supported medication Abortion Care Online, said that they have seen a lot of growing interests in pill based abortion since the pandemic as well, and so it makes complete sense that at a time when it's not safe to leave your house that people would be turning to the internet to get the kind of care that they need, and even beyond abortion.

You know, I when the pandemic started, actually very early into the pandemic, This is like a little bit embarrassing. I had a assist on my butt cheek and my doctor had switched to telemedicine only, and I remember thinking like, well, certainly she's not gonna want to like have me take down my pants and show her my butt cheek over you know, FaceTime. And that's exactly what I did, and

I probably get the care that I needed. And so obviously we should not be putting unfair barriers in place when I think that the pandemic really showed how important it is to use the technology that we have to access healthcare right. And I know there are stories you can find out. There are people who said, like why it was so important to them and why they wanted to be in like they're kind of you know, home

or where they felt comfortable when they did this. Um. But also, unfortunately a lot of times going to an abortion clinic can also not feel safe because there can be people protesting outside and that makes it a much more stressful experience and and speaking of I'm sure, um not everyone was happy about about this news. Oh, of course not so. Anti choice groups were not happy about

this announcement. The Susan B. Anthony Foundation said, the Biden administration today moved to weaken the long standing federal safety regulations against mail order abortion drugs, designed to protect women from serious health risks and potential abuse. So here's my question about this. First of all, how and why would someone be abusing these abortion pills. It's not like they like, take it from me. They do not get you high, the side effects that you might have or like mild nausea.

I don't really think that people are like, oh, I can't wait to get these drugs to induce mild nausea. It's going to be a wild time. Can't wait to abuse them. So already have some questions there, and then doctors make it clear that pill based abortions are safe.

A research program at the FDA found that of the one thousand one dred and fifties seven abortions that occurred through the program between September, we're completed without requiring any follow up procedure, patients made seventy visits to emergency rooms.

Or urgent care centers with ten instances of serious complications to study reported and so that's really like pretty good in terms of, you know, the safety of this, Like doctors have made it very clear that pill based abortions are not unsafe and tele medicine abortions are safe for all the reasons that you've just said. Any they can be more convenient. Maybe you don't want to go to an abortion clinic where there's going to be people shouting

at you when you're already stressed. Uh, maybe you have to work, or maybe you can't afford to get to a clinic, or like, there are so many reasons why someone would choose to you know, access the care they need through telemedicine, and it's there's not really a lot of reasons why we are regulating it in this way.

And one thing I also want to point out is that this change is obviously, like very long overdue, especially when you consider that out of the twenty different prescription medications currently regulated by the FDA, these abortion bills are

the only one. The only one the f d A previously required to be dispensed in person but permitted patience to self administer, and so that really, I mean, like, of all of these medications, this like, why is this the only one that had this unfair burden to access? This is one of the only medications that are given to people with uteruses and those who need reprojective health.

Like essentially, this is why we know these answers. And I find that fascinating because as we're looking for the future, and of course, I think part of the reason and Anny and I both like as a tendant in celebrating because we are in Georgia run by current Governor Brian kimp who has absolutely put into place every restriction that you can think of when it comes to accessing any

kind of health care in general. And I say that very loudly, as he is threatening to shut down any connections with federal assistance when it comes to coverage in the state at this point in time. And I think one of the things that we are talking about and trying to be very loud about is that these groups

are not focusing on the women. Obviously, it is a literal fight about what is moral in their eyes, and for a Bible belt area of such as Georgia, it is a constant battle trying to see how to combat Uh, these really generalized slash false narratives of harming women as they're truly trying to save women. What is actually they're trying to prevent women to get good access and good

health care at all. So it's kind of one of those moments of like how and I guess honestly, the pandemic has shown a lot of light about the fact that when it comes to morality and conspiracies, they don't

care if it's from science, they don't care. That's about the truth as we have learned, um, and I find it interesting that as we are trying to focus on this, what, what are some ways that we can maybe uh advocate for ourselves, for people like Annie and I who are stuck in Georgia right now, for more access to these things. Oh what a good question. I mean, first of all, I just have to honor what you just said, because we are at a time where it is scary and

the threat is real. Anybody who told you like, oh, they're not going to overturn row, like you'll be fine, like we're not going to go backward, they were incorrect. They were telling you something that wasn't true. And I I I'm sorry to have to say that, but here's here's the reality of where we are, and it's it's very real, and it's very scary, and I completely understand the urge to be like, well, this is happening. It's inevitable. Our rights are going to be rolled back. Women are

going to die, people are going to die. This is going to be bad. Anybody who's feeling that that exhaustion and malaise, I'm with you. I get it. All I can say is that now is not the time to retreat. Now is the time to dig in. And so I have to really lift up and amplify all the amazing people who are doing the work on the ground of

protecting abortion access. I want to shout out a few people right now, my colleague and Ultra Violet Sonya Spoo, who is incredible, um, my friend Renee, who is doing a lot of work around abortion storytelling and just like helping people understand how many different people are impacted by abortion care and need abortions, and like someone that you love has had an abortion. And then if you're looking like what can I do? Absolutely, now is the time

to be supporting abortion funds around the country. If you've got a local Abortion fund and you or in your community throw them some money. If you've got some extra money, you can go to Abortion Funds dot org and find out. You know, people are doing a lot of organizing of making sure that people can still get the access to care that they need, So definitely support those folks. Also urge your lawmaker to support the Women's Health Protection Act.

You can go to we Are Ultra Violet dot org and find our petition demanding the Women's Health Protection Act be past because we need. Now is the time that we need to be fighting with all that we've got. I know it is scary, I know it is hard. I know we've all been through a lot, but now

is the time to really dig in. And I think, like, like, one of the things that really gives me hope in this fight are things like abortion care networks, are things like this, individuals doing what they can, and so I

know that we got us are. The government might always not always have our back, our lefted officials might not always have our back, but we have our own backs, and so despight is hard and long, but I know I know that we got we got each other, and so that's the one thing that really gives me hope, so Will said, I think I needed it because yes, I've been very stress. I know we all are very

concerned and worried. But that was a nice a nice bow on this our last recording with you, Bridget in one and some excellent advice as always hanging there, Yes, hanging there. We can do this. We could do this low key there. That's that's what I call you, Samantha lokey Y. Yes, yes, well, thank you as always a Bridget for joining us, um and bringing this topic. It is always such a delight to have you have fun. You're about to leave for your your weirdo Christmas. Correct,

that's right. In a matter of hours, I will be wearing a fur hat like probably pretty draw in the Women the Moon. It's important in this whole conversation. Yes, yes, have a lovely time. Um. Where can the listeners find you, Well, you can find me all over the web. I'm at Bridget Marie on Twitter and at Bridget Murray in DC on Instagram. Please follow me. I'm trying to get my followers out pup please follow, and you can follow me

on my I Heart Radio podcast. There are no girls on the internet where we have all kinds of interesting conversations about culture and technology and gender and race and the Internet. So please please check it out. Yes, go check it out. It is fantastic and as always, if you want to contact us, you can or email stuff to your mom stuff I hurt me dot com. You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or Instagram and stuff I Never Told You. Thanks as always.

Startup producer Christina, thank you and thanks you for listening Stuff When Never Told You production by Heart Radio Well podcast on my Heart Radio is the Day I heardio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite ships. Yeah,