Satanic panic is dominating TikTok conversation around Travis Scott and Astroworld

who are being intentionally sacrificed. After the tragedy, I was glued to my phone watching increasingly horrifying firsthand accounts of young people who were there, and pretty quickly these videos went from people sharing stories of overcrowding and two little staff with two little training and other man made elements to disaster, two people saying they felt they had been hypnotized into a trance by the dark music, or speculating that there were clues hidden in plain sight that the

festival was actually part of a Satanic ritual. Because of the way TikTok functions continuously surfacing new videos and users is for you page, I didn't even really have much control over the increasingly more extreme videos I was consuming. It raises the question, in the wake of a tragedy like Astro World, what responsibility do platforms like TikTok have to not amplify content that pushes conspiracy theories. Now, satanic

panic is nothing new. The moral panic where thousands of unsubstantiated allegations of Satanic ritual abuse and sacrifice have been around since the eighties, but researcher Abby Richards says it never really went away. My name is Abby Richards, and I am a TikToker and a TikTok disinformation researcher. I've seen so many TikTok sort of claiming that this what happened in Houston was like a rich, realistic sacrifice by Satanists.

And you know, I guess my first question is what kind of imagery or iconography or people pointing to to support these outlandish claims. There was a bunge. I think a lot of it was like there was a portal on the stage and I was writing kind of on the stage within that portal that said see you on the other side. Um. They were also pointing to the cross shape stage, which just for references a pretty normal shape of a stage, as well as the shirt he

was wearing and the slow rhythm of the music. When I was growing up, I was definitely like a goth teen, I guess you might say, And so I liked black clothing. I liked sort of I guess, like demonic imagery and that kind of thing. And I grew up in the kind of householder my parents would be like, Oh, this is batanic, don't listen to this, don't listen to that. And as an adult, I realized that occult imagery can

sort of be just like a marketing thing. Like a lot of the bands that I like, I'm sure they chose the specific imagery that they did precisely because they knew it was associated was like the occult. And so now in light of this tragedy, I feel like people are looking for all these different like symbolisms and meanings, and it's like, well, it's not unusual for our certain alternative artists to choose iconography that is associated with the occult as like their brand, and so you seeing a

conspiracy theory on it. It's kind of like a self fulfilling prophecy or like a feedback loop, you know what I mean. Absolutely, I mean, it's it's very much become a part of different cultures. I mean, you've seen it in hip hop culture, and this is what we see at the show of adopting that kind of imagery because they've already been accused of it so much that it

kind of starts to fold in on it. So they're definitely better people than me to speak about the history the hip hop not that I'm not that girl, but it's certainly become a part of some of the marketing campaigns that they use. Yeah. So, in terms of these videos and how they're taking off on TikTok. In your Peace with Olivia Little for Media Matters, you talk about this unprecedented reach that we're seeing with conspiracy videos on TikTok about the festival, Can you tell me a little

bit about how they're taking off platform conspiracy theory. TikTok is so mind bogglingly huge. It's really hard to articulate just how big it is. It's so popular and so easy to go down those wormholes because I think that like those videos can be really gripping, so they get high engagement. People love watching them, and you can gain a lot of followers pushing them. People don't necessarily understand

that they can be harmful. They don't necessarily understand they can be truly hateful in origin, but we see them all the time. So when we saw these like conspiracy theories essentially break out immediately after the ast World tragedy, it's not necessarily surprising because there's already such a strong kind of framework for that type of thinking on TikTok already.

Do you think that TikTok should be doing more to curb these kinds of videos, Yes, they should be doing more to curb these types of videos, like absolutely, with that a doubt. Conspiracy theories at the moment in and of themselves there are not against the platforms moderation guidelines, but a lot of that time, a lot of the time that means that they can just kind of drive completely un checked and there is no understanding of different

kind of scales of harm that they can cause. In general, the app should be doing more to kind of add friction to those videos so that they don't go so viral so easily and just take over entire for you pages. Well, on the one hand, I can kind of understand why these videos are so compelling. I know that in the days after Astra World I really caught myself kind of stuck in a loop of watching these videos over and over and over again, and there really was something kind

of compelling about them. They were so disturbing and so dark, and I noticed that initially I was being surface videos from people who were there, who were just saying, this is what it was like, this is what we had to face. And eventually, as I continued scrolling on TikTok, the videos I was being surfaced were more and more extreme and becoming more and more lady with satanic conspiracy theories. But again, I can sort of see how people can be easily taken in and easily down a rabbit hole

just watching video after video like that. Absolutely, I think especially on TikTok, where it just feeds them to you. It's not like you made the choice to go click on those videos. It was just like, oh, you watched this video of a perspective from inside the crowd, and how terrifying it is. Other people who watched that are also interested in this theory of it being a ritual,

and then it eats it to you. And the other thing to point out is that conspiracy theory is exactly like this, a really common in the wake of tragedy and terrifying disasters, things like when we try and process horrible, horrible events that are truly just like too much for

our brain. Conspiracy theories offer very simple answers to these kind of complex problem ms and also offer some sort of like sense of meaning to it, like it was intentional, there's some sort of story behind it that your brain can connect the dots into. Oh my gosh, I think you really said it. You know, I can kind of understand why, Oh, this was a Satanic ritualistic sacrifice. It's somehow more comforting than it was a good old fashioned capitalism.

And it just turned out that the organizers of this event cared more about making money than they did about

safety concerns. And I guess that if it's Satanists, I feel like it's much less likely that I'm going to run into a cable of Satanists than it is that I am going to like encounter shotny craftsmanship from somebody who didn't care or like a system that didn't care enough about me, and it hurt me, you know, I feel like that, like it's more comforting to to believe the first one than it is to be like, oh, yeah, it's capitalism, we can't escape, but it's all around us,

you know, somehow bleaker. It's definitely more reality is more grim in this situation. I also think that you know, as everybody does, we all suffer from the sort of main character syndrome. And if the narrative in your head is it's an evil group that's out to get you, then you are somehow involved and they are concerned with you, and their actions are reflection of somehow of how they want to go after you. You are still somehow involved in that. But when instead it's just they literally didn't

think about you. They're so concerned with making their own money that they never thought about your safety. You weren't a concern. You are just an object that produces money to them. That is so much worse for our brands to try and comprehend than like, uh, evil group is trying to get Yeah, like that's what's way harder. It's grimmer. It's way grimmer. It's grim, and it's also just so lonely.

It's so lone to feel like your humanity is not recognized. Yeah, it's very it's inhuman, it's it's really loses the humanity when you think about it in that framework, versus if you just go with like evil villains and good guys who are in like this fight against evil, I feel like you get to kind of feel like your humanity is still relevant to them. Obviously, those kids humanities didn't, like we're not was not obvious to the organizers of

this event, like they were being treated like chattel. You know. It's like, you know this idea that that their individual humanity and souls or whatever, that like the organizers would be really into that. It's like, no, they don't. I don't think they even clock you all as humans who they need to care about in that way. You're just numbers, and the higher than number of the more the revenue is.

And they wanted to stream it, and yeah, the whole thing is so so great him and just like so fucked up that I think people have an easier time adding a storyline to it because then at least there's some meaning behind it and it's not quite so fucked up. It's it's literally less fucked up if it were in

demonic sacrifice. Let's say, clickbreak center back. Something else I've learned from your work is this idea of conspiracy theories often are a way to talk about or way to demonize people for their identities without actually like saying that. And so in this situation, I've noticed people saying like, Oh, they're sacrificed by celebrity, And I can't help wondering if they're using celebrity as like a stand in for it

sounds like anti semitic and racist me. Like the way that they're the way that they're talking about it, it almost seems like a more palatable way of coding explicit

anti semitism or racism. Yeah. Absolutely, when they like dog whistle at Hollywood, like you know, Hollywood is controlled by evil elites who are using these celebrity clones, and of course they only ever go after hip hop artists, generally black artists, and it's usually narratives about them being cloned, about them being somehow under control of some illuminati, shadow elite supreme force, and oftentimes like there's just so much coded racism and so much coded anti semitism in both

of these and they just fooled together into this awful combination of dog whistled hate. Yes, And I think it's one of those things where they don't have to come out and say that they're talking about Jewish people, or they're talking about like quote what rappers, you know what that's code for. It kind of makes it more palatable, and then when you call it out, they have a very convenient you know, it's like I never said, I never explicitly said that I was talking about Jewish people.

I like, you know, I feel like the way it kind of gives them a plausible deniability to continue trafficking in this kind of hate without being called out, And if you call it out, it's like, oh, well, you're just trying to suppress my you know, my truth. Oh absolutely, And like there are also parts of what they're saying that like are rooted in reality and very real problems, and so then they can kind of hide under those

as well. Like there are issues in Hollywood with like people having too much power, and those are often like old white men who are making decisions about like mass media, and like that's an issue, right, and like in general, do we do we idolize celebrities a bit too much? Like probably, like those are like real conversations for us

to be having. There are real systemic issues to like be looking at here, but they often kind of hide under them, or like vaguely referenced them in a coded enough way that it, like to an on larker, might not look problematic, and it gives them kind of a blanket hide under. Yeah, I've noticed that, and it's so frustrating because it makes it so hard to call out.

It's like another reason why I appreciate the work of yourself and other folks who speak out against us on TikTok, because they, I think that they make content that is specifically hard to call out, and so like it takes a little bit of a nuance to do it well. And so I so appreciate the work that you're doing in terms of saying like, well, let's actually unpack what's going on here. Thank you. I appreciate it. It it takes a lot a lot of time, so I genuinely

appreciate it. You see it so much Like there was one big defunk that I did a couple of months ago, I think, but there was a viral video about anxious civilizations in Antarctica, and the end of that rabbit hole was like esoteric Nazi ship and I have to do this like three minute explanation of like okay, like here's like what is actually going on here on like the surface level, they're saying like Antarctica like maybe had humans

on it before. But then if you look at like the actual language they're using, and they're saying like Hyperborea, which is very much a part of kind of esoteric Nazi mythology. So what people engage with as if it's like just a normal, fun conspiracy theory like on TikTok is actually literally Nazi mythology. And I think that really helps us see how these conspiracy theories might seem harmless but actually can be a pathway to much more dangerous

and extremist lines of thinking. I can, at least anecdotally say that, like when I engage with one or two conspiracy theories on TikTok, then all of a sudden, I'm fed more and they get more and more extreme. I think that like there's absolutely a link, Like we know that conspiracy theories almost always end in anti semitism, and they decrease kind of your trust towards other other groups of people who might not be like you, and they they decrease your pro social behavior, and they have kind

of all these effects on society at large. But it does kind of also seem like they are changing the way we think, like where so many people have like opted out of reality and are choosing kind of just like these escapist conspiracy theories to believe in rather than accepting, like right now, reality is pretty tough. Yeah, it's it's

so interesting how you put that. I do feel like an entire subsection of the world has just checked out of reality, and it's like it's like easier to live in a conspiracy theory because, like you said, reality is pretty scary. The fact that, you know, it's not really some Satanist group, it's just capitalism trying to get your money, and that's what killed eight people. That's pretty grim. I can understand wanting to check out of that reality and

instead believe something that is like weirdly more comforting, you know. Yeah, absolutely, for some reason, like for the human brain, it is more comforting to believe that there's like a shadow elite trying to get Yeah, because at least that's a simple answer, right, that has a pretty simple fix. If there were some like unimaginably powerful group in charge of the world, like that would be kind of great because like they're clearly doing a bad job, Like let's get rid of them.

But no, like there's a lot of systems that are like interwoven with each other and causing problems that we are like reliant on those systems, and we're complicit in those systems, and like we all have to also change our own behaviors to like fix these huge problems, and they're gonna take years to fix. There is no like

on off switch for fixing these things. Like it's years and years of collective work, and that is so much more mental energy and like long term physical energy than just being like, oh, it's just evil Jews and control of the world. Right, I guess I have one kind of tough question that I've been wrestling with, is is there a line between telling people who were at astra world that they can't recount their own understanding of their experience.

Like I'm sure you saw that video of the young woman who was like, when I bought this ticket, I didn't notice all the different you know, iconography or hints that this was a sacrifice, and I believe that was there, like it was demonic all the hypnotic noises. Is there a line between telling someone that they're allowed to have their own perspective of their experience and like allowing room for that, but also not spreading harmful, damaging conspiracy theories

and trafficking in them. Like, is there is there a line where we can make space for both or what do you do? You have any thoughts? Yeah? I mean I think that people are allowed to have their own experiences and they're allowed to kind of talk about those.

The question is do we amplify them. I don't think that we should ever tell somebody, no, you aren't allowed to think this, But the question is do we then spread that to another fifteen million people who weren't there and are just going to kind of take your work for it. And also believe that the power that something like TikTok has when it comes to virility and spreading

a message is really kind of unprecedented. So we have to be having conversations and honestly tough questions about like what is doing the most harm versus the most good in this sort of situation. And it's like all of it is going to be shitty as there's like I wish that there were ways that everybody can be happy, and the whole thing is just like awful to think about in general. So, yeah, it's a tough question. You're not wrong more after a quick break, let's get right

back into it. Satanic, ritualistic sacrifice. We're not the only kinds of unsubstantiated claims that we heard in the aftermath of Astra World. Houston Police Chief Troy Finner initially said in a televised press conference, and an unidentified attendee caused a panic by injecting a security guard with a needle full of an unknown drug, causing him to pass out.

Dinner said that the security guard was revived after he was given narcon, a prescription to treat opioid overdose, and he also said that medics confirmed yet a needle mark on his neck. Now, as soon as I heard this, I thought it sounded kind of like the drugs or horror stories I'd heard during my adolescence growing up. And one rogue bad actor causing a panic that led to a deadly stampede is a pretty convenient explanation that kind of likes the organizers off the hook for their part

in the deadly festival. But later then I walked back those statements, saying the security officer had not been injected with drugs after all, and instead had just been hit on the head. Conspiracy theories cast blame on Boogeyman instead of on the actual real world systems and individuals who

are at fault. Kind of the flip side of that for me is that so many of the first hand videos on TikTok are from people who were there, and in terms of like what we amplify and what we don't, I feel like some of the most compelling TikTok's that challenge the organizers and the authorities, you know, like very convenient version of events. When the tragedy first happened, I was like, oh, they're the cops are saying that somebody was like stabbed with a with a needle, and that

that they caused the stampede. And I was like, that's a very convenient narrative. And then when you go to TikTok and see these firsthand videos of obvious overcrowding, like obvious like like dangerous conditions, part of me was like, I am glad that young people have access to platforms like TikTok where they can say no, no, no authorities. Here is what I experienced, and rather than amplifying conspiracy theories.

I wish that we were seeing more, you know, more accounts that challenge the authorities and the organizers very convenient narrative of what happened to get accountability. And so I think it's interesting how it can be like a double edged thing. It can be used to spread conspiracy or used to challenge official narratives that let people off the

hook who had power to stop this. Oh. Absolutely, It's one of my favorite things about TikTok is just like there's good and bad, and I think obviously, just like my work of analyzing you know, misinstration disinformation on TikTok is, oftentimes people look at that and then assume that I hate the app and I really don't. Like there are really phenomenal things that it offers, like when it comes to like learning and like being exposed to different ideas

than you might already have. Like TikTok really is capable of doing that if you create that sort of feed in general, and if you are that type of person who goes looking for that, and it absolutely I think even with the astral world, like there is both there is the conspiracy theories and the ideas that it is a satanic ritual. And then there's also people who are looking at that and just seeing the overcrowding and the

poor management that went on. So like, yes, and again tough question because how do you balance those How do you have an algorithm that can tell the difference and promote what is like honest you know, experiences of what happened versus like conspiracy theories about it. Yeah, it's a tough question. But I'm happy that there are folks like you who are asking those questions and sort of creating

those conversations that I think that we need to have. Yeah, we definitely need to be having them because this conspiracy theory environment on TikTok is not sustainable for democracy or just like a healthy environment for a lot of kids to be growing up. And like they should be challenging the narratives, absolutely, but I don't think conspiracy theories actually challenge the narratives. They just are kind of how do I put this, Conspiracies don't challenge narratives, They are just

dressed up as something that does. That is I completely agree with you, even know what you mean, right. It seems like like with Astro World, challenging the narrative would be holding the people who would power accountable. It's not. If it's Satan, then like we're not going to be able to sue Satan. So it just like lets people who let this happen off the hook. But it's dressed up in this way of like, oh, this is like an edgy y'all aren't ready for this, like edgy take

you know what I mean. Like it's like dressed up as if it is challenging a narrative, but in fact it is creating a convenient supernatural scapegoat so that those who actually had the power to prevent this can continue to like avoid accountability. Absolutely. That was so so I'll

put you to no words out of my mouth. That was really you've nailed it there, because like if you subscribe to this idea that it's a Satanic ritual, then like that offers zero answers about like what cost it, what we're all the bad decisions that led up to this, And then it offers also no solutions for how do we prevent this in the future. The only thing that it tells you to do is except Jesus is your Lord and samet gear. That's it. And like that doesn't

fix any problems about concert over crowding. Also, and like this is something that a lot of the times I think we miss when it comes to covering conspiracy theories, but on a much kind of smaller scale, not on the societal scale, but on a smaller scale of like there are real victims here, Like there are people who die, and people who have very severe injuries, and a lot of people who are traumatized. And all of those people

have families. And then when you go around saying it was part of a satanic sacrifice, like how is that going to make them feel? And like what are the consequences for that? Of now you have family members who are grieving their loved ones, and if they go look for their loved ones online, they're going to see them incorporated into conspiracy theories about this being some sort of

like Hollywood hip hop sacrifice. And even worse, like if they are a religious person and they buy into that themselves, like what would that do to them? So like those are really heartbreaking, very real world effects that these types of conspiracy theories can have on the victims and their families. Yeah, and I think that you're exactly right that we don't talk enough about the people who are harmed when be traffic and conspiracy theories and spread them in this way,

the people, like the actual real world harm that it's causing. Yeah, I mean there's the ideological harm in the way. It's like harming society at large to think this way because like this again solves no problems, offers no solutions, and lets people check out it. Lets really the organizers and the people who are responsible off the hook in a

lot of ways. But then it also causes harm to like real humans who are in the process of like the processing trauma and grieving and trying to understand what happened. And now if they go looking for it they see satanic ritual. That's not fair to them. It's really not well. I mean, I'm so happy that you're in this fight. Friend of the show, you know, I I look to you whatever there's a big thing happening that involves conspiracy theories. I always look to your content and it really helps

me put it in perspective. So thank you for that. Thank you. I'm I'm happy to be able to help. I love your show, always listening, I love coming around here. Yeah, where can folks keep up with all the amazing work that you're up to. So my TikTok is topology, and I'd make a lot of kind of like longer form TikTok videos debunking different conspiracies on there. My Twitter is Abby a s R. In my Instagram is Abby s R. All of them are resources and I hope too that

they can help people. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, I just want to say hi. You can reach us at Hello at tang godi dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangdi dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me bridget Toad. It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Stricklett as our executive producer. Ary Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato

is our contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Toad. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, check out the iHeart radi you app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. H m HM