There's a lot of goofiness happening here, and somebody needs to take accountability for it.
There are no Girls on the Internet.
As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm brigitad and this is there are no girls on the Internet. You've probably heard of open Ai, the company that makes chat GPT.
Last week, open.
Ai had major drama and a major board shakeup. Now there's been no shortage of coverage of what happened. We'll get into the broad strokes in this episode. But even before all of this, the truth is that open Ai, this company that has taken up so much space and conversations about what kind of future we're going to have, was already very white and very male. And that's even
more true after this week's board shakeup. So what does all of this say about gender and identity in tech and beyond and what does it mean for the rest of us? Doctor Misty heganis Associate professor in the School of Public Affairs and Administration at University of Kansas studies how gender plays out in places like tech company boardrooms. How did you come to be somebody who cares about how women show up in workplaces? In the economy and in data.
Well, I am a woman who lives in this society and tries to thrive.
In this economy.
And so, you know, I guess I'll just say I came by it naturally.
You know, I'm.
A data nerd. I'm an economist by training. I've always been interested and driven to really try to understand kind of how we can all live our best lives and to figure out what are the barriers and challenges that.
Hold people back.
So last week, Misty and I both watched the open Ai CEO drama unfold. There are lots of AI companies and organizations out there, but open Ai and their CEO, Sam Altman have kind of become the face of AI right now, and pretty unexpectedly. Open AI's board voted to terminate Sam Altman as the CEO last week. In a statement the kind of statement that seems to be signaling that the ousted person did something bad. The board said Altman quote was not consistently candid in his communications with
the board, hindering its ability to exercise its responsibilities. To this day, we still don't know what communications he was not candid about specifically, but this was just the start so, as someone who cares about the way that women show up in places like boardrooms, I have to know your thoughts on the Open Ai CEO drama. When I watched it unfold, all I could think was like, Wow, these men really do not feel like competent, stable leaders to me, What were your initial thoughts?
Same?
Misty is an economist and she specifically studies high skilled workers like the kind whose staff tech companies like open Ai. Her work doesn't have a specific AI focus, but she saw the ways the Open Ai saga wasn't just a story about who runs this company, it's a story about gender. In an op ed for Fast Company called how the Open Ai Saga Illustrates Tech's toxic masculinity problem, she breaks down with the entire things has about male leadership in tech and beyond.
You know, there's a story here about the women, but there's perhaps even a more interesting story about the men. And I just couldn't get over the feelings that I was having of the way in which male privilege and this ability to refuse to back down when told Noh was really showing up in this story, and the gender piece was so glaring for me that I just couldn't not see it, and I think that was happening for a lot of us.
I completely agree.
And what's funny is that I think it took a while for that narrative to sort of like become the conversation. I think early on the conversation was look at these powerful men like disagreeing with each other in public, like what's going on? But I think after a while people were like, Hey, this is a conversation about gender, about the dynamics at play with male leadership, and we should
be paying attention to that. I think that a lot of people might have you believe that when you're only talking largely about men, there are no gender dynamics at play, Like this is something that I've often thought that, like, you know, when it's all men, like, for there to be a gender dynamic at play, there has to be someone who's not a man, And so we've just sort of like accepted maleness as the default gender in a way that I think invites people to not see when
there are very obvious gender dynamics shaping what's happening.
Totally.
I will tell you that you know, a couple of the men around me when I started thinking about this opinion piece were really like the reaction was, well, what does this have to do with gender? Like they just didn't get it. And I think this is where the criks of the conversation needs to happen, because we all live together in the.
Society, you know, we all show up in spaces and you.
Know, have our own realities, and what ends up happening is you know, I think what ends up happening is people who have been given privilege, either through their own knowledge or not, in the way that they live with their lives.
It's really hard for them.
To see beyond that, to understand what's going on with the person across from them, across the table from them,
who perhaps doesn't have that same level of privilege. So I searched up Sam Altman, you know, I Wikipedia him if you will, and you know, here's a guy who if I was to look at his CV and not know anything about how he's been trumping around the globe and trying to you know, really a crew funding for this this venture and and you know, this innovative space, like, I'm not sure that I would be too impressed with
his CV. And he, you know, has hopped around a lot and I just couldn't help but think, you know, if his gender was different. There's some assumption that happened in the media, you know, that this guy was ousted out of this business, and we couldn't let that happen, Like the world would crumble if that happened. And I feel like that's kind of the attitude that he and his colleagues took as well, like the world will crumble
if I don't get to stay on top here. And you know, women rarely, if ever, are given, you know, are allowed to portray themselves in that light, and I just I think we can't, Like it would be a lost opportunity if we got through this whole saga and we're no more aware of how gender plays a role in the space than previously. And so I think, you know,
that's why I wrote the opinion piece. That's why, you know, for me, it was really important to kind of name some of this behavior that we were seeing for what it actually was, which was just, you know, somebody had enough privilege and enough gumption to believe that they should be there no matter what, and they were going to fight for it in whatever way possible and in a very visible way. And you know, documenting all of it on x or Twitter, and you know women would never get away with that.
She's right.
Can you imagine if everyone at open Ai was a woman or a person of color, how differently the entire thing would have been reported and framed. Misty says, the entire saga provides context for how identity shapes decisions and how they get made at tech companies like open Ai and Thust will impact us all. She writes, this story went from Pallas intrigue to gossip Girl all in the span of forty eight hours and made it clear that
the men of today are not okay. The shock and awe quickly turned into a sad case of the state of male leadership, the kind where hot headed frustration and anger drives impulsive decision making and where society bends over backward to accommodate the male ego as it oozes privilege.
That line.
I was like, yes, double click underline plus plus plus snap, snap snap, what do you so like given this open Ai saga as a template, but also like it's it's about open Ai, but it's also not about open Ai, Like it's about like, as someone who covers tech, I think this is tailor's old as time, you know, sole young white male leader who has been able to spin up, whether earned or unearned, this attitude around him that he
is a genius, He is a singular savior. We all need him if like he and only he is the key to all of this not falling apart and really getting the media to sort of go along with it. Like it's really a clever trick they pulled. And so yeah, I'm wondering, like what do you see as the state of male leadership today and how how it's impacting what's going on and how we're thinking about it.
Yeah, you know, and it's not only convincing the media to go along with it, but also convincing.
You know, funders and donors.
Right like Microsoft was one hundred percent ready to go to bat, you know, like they were willing to except the change until they weren't. Right until I'm assuming there was some like you know, behind the curtain conversation phone calls between like, you know, Sam and his folks at Microsoft.
So here's what happened. After the announcement that Sam Altman had been fired as CEO of open Ai, Microsoft open AI's largest investor immediately announced that they were hiring Autman to lead their AI shop, along with former open ai president Greg Brockman, who resigned in protest after Aughtman was canned. The remaining open ai staff was very vocally against Altman's firing.
Almost all of them, over seven hundred staffers signed a letter demanding the board that austed him, resigned themselves, and for Aughtman to be reinstated. The letter reads, your actions made it obvious that you are incapable of overseeing open Ai. We are unable to work for or with people that lack competence, judgment and care for our mission, and employee, investors and funders threaten to pull out to Miramrati, Open AI's chief technology officer was appointed interim CEO in Sam's absence.
That is, in to negotiations when Sam Altman was brought back and reinstated a CEO of open Ai with a new board in tow too, like an episode of Succession meets Silicon Valley. The whole thing was dizzying to watch.
Women know that this happens.
Right. You can think about this in terms of gender, but you can also think about it in terms of race and ethnicity, or sexuality or there's like lots of different demographic ways in which we can think about, if you will, the people who are allowed to live in ignorant bliss, and then like the rest of us who see these things happening, And I think, what in this space, like, if we're to learn anything, I think what I would want us to learn is I would want more men
to take accountability for their actions and to call out this behavior. I you know, it's it's really amazing to me that you have a board that was constructed in a certain way with rules, and these rules are followed, and somebody gets ousted, refuses to follow the rules of being ousted, and you know, kind of in some sense
bullies his way back in. And I don't know if he bullied, but like, you know, getting the staff to go along with him, getting you know, the funders to go along to kind of get back into that space.
It's like an unwillingness to accept the reality. And then the rest of us are watching, and you know, after the reality becomes just so unreal, somehow the stories that are coming out are justifying the craziness, you know, or just saying like oh now it'll be all okay, and it's like no, I mean, I don't know if I'm not watching the same drama as others are, but it's really not okay what happened. Yes, innovation is cool, Yes, you know, venture capital projects and like pushing the envelope.
I mean, I study high skilled workforce, I you know, study innovation and all of these things, and they're great, but we need to hold people accountable. And I think in this instance, and again I don't know any of the dynamics of what happened and whether it was justified or not. I only know that there were certain rules that the company and the board had and that those were followed, you know, until they weren't, you know, or
until exceptions were made. And I think we need to critically ask ourselves why did that play out the way it did. Why are we not calling out this insistence on not accepting the reality, and where are we making that normative in a culture, in an environment that is already struggles to keep women, you know, like engaged in the industry.
Tech is already a field where people who are not white, cisender men don't always feel represented, don't always feel included, And so when you are projecting that like oh no, it's okay for this this person to not follow the rules. You are sort of sending a message that there's a rule book for one kind of person and then a different rule book for another. Because, as you pointed out in your piece, if I was if I was Sam Altman and I was a black woman, certainly this kind
of behavior would be framed very different. I'll just say that I think that's a given.
Let's take a quick break at her back.
The double standard for what kind of behavior is acceptable for men versus people who are not mad in workplaces is real, and this is something Misty knows all too well. She's had to navigate these tensions in her own career.
So I worked in a federal statistical agency for over a decade, and I can tell you that when I was kind of in an upper level of management position, if I asked things of people like I once had a junior to me who was male on my team come on my team and I asked him to schedule forward the rest of the team meetings. And even it wasn't even twenty four hours, his supervisor was at my desk. Why are you asking him to do that? That's your job.
If I was a man that would have never happened, and you know, and so I think this is where the rubber hits the road. This is where I would like, like, if we're gonna learn anything from this experience, can we learn that not everybody can get away with everything, but certain people can? And then what are we gonna do to you know, specifically in this instance? In my head, I'm like, what are men gonna do to fix this, uh,
you know environment for the women around them? I mean I am honestly worried about the women in open Aye, Like what is going to happen to them?
You know?
Are our others going to want to come and join? You know, I think we need to be having these conversations. And you know, I think there's some folks who need to really eat some home pie, like really a lot of it.
The entire open Ai shakeup left a bad taste in the mouths of anybody who cares about things like gender
representation and inclusion in tech. The open Ai board who voted to sack Altman included two women, Helen Toner and Tasha McCauley, but after bringing Altman back to the company, only one member of the board who voted to oust him remained Adam DiAngelo, So that means the only two women on the board are gone replaced by men, men like Larry Summers, economist and former Obama administration Secretary of the Treasury, and who you might recall was kind of
pressured into resigning as the president of Harvard University after a pretty poorly received talk that speculated that innate gender differences might be why so few women are represented in STEM and Miramuradi, that former open ai Chief technology officer who was named interim CEO. She was only CEO for just a few days until Altman was reinstated, and she publicly signaled support for his return. It's like women are
being shuffled around to make room for more men. Once Sam Appman was back at the helm and a new board was in place, Greg Brockman, open AI's former president, now reinstated, tweeted a picture of the team captioned we are so back and a quick glance tells you all you need to know about the demographics. This was my reaction when my producer first showed it to me on Twitter. Okay, so it is definitely mostly white men. Let's talk about that, because you know, we know now that the only two
women on open AI's board are now gone. They brought in men like Larry Summers, who we know was famously forced to resign as president of Harvard for making like deeply misogynistic and sexist remarks about women in stem I get the sense that, like, you don't necessarily feel like people are really looking out for the women at these companies.
And I do think, like, or do you think there's a dynamic in some of these tech companies that just women as support or like pieces to be moved along a game board to further support the leadership of the men in the space.
Yeah, so you know, again, I don't know the details behind the screen of what happened, but it seems to me like Miro was one of those pawns, right like she was just asked to be temporary CEO. She lasted you know.
Like a weekend, like such a sort amount of time, you know.
And then I mean, and then she you know, through the reporting, you could see like she had Sam's back, you know, And that's one of the reasons why so like all the saga, but I am just really worried about all of the housekeeping that she has been having to do over the past handful of weeks dealing with these egos like you know, how is she managing and and we don't we're not hearing from her, you know.
I think the board that was put in place is honestly laughable in terms of giving any sort of confidence that they're actually thinking about these issues. I know that there were statements put out after the fact after this, like three board member, you know, and by the way, the men survived, right, so the women on the board were out. The men survived in different roles or you know,
one of them kept their role on the board. But I know there were statements put out after it came out, like Larry Summers and these other people, where it was like, well, we're we're not done, We're not done filling the board yet. We're you know, we'll put women on. It's like the damage is already done. You know, if you're thinking about women as an afterthought, if you're thinking about women as like a way to salvage your reputation, like that is
exactly backwards. And I think the current board gives even less confidence that it's a good environment for women to thrive. You know, I personally, I don't have any confidence in that. I mean, you know, Larry, you know, has a very big name in the field of economics, but it's not clear to me that he understands any of these gender dynamics. And he's a very privileged person himself. So I'm just I worry about that.
And you know.
I'm just shocked. It just like shocks me the way this all unfolded. I just I don't even know. I'm like in a loss of words.
More after a quick break, let's get right back into it.
Men like Sam Autman are being put in charge of building and ushering in the future for all of us, and we're being told they're all geniuses, so smart and so visionary that we can trust them to be in charge. And I bet that now Sam Autman, it is more empowered than ever. They tried to get rid of him. We still don't even really know why they couldn't. And now he's back. He has got to believe that there's no line that he could cross that would lead to
him actually being successfully ousted. A blank check endorsement for his own leadership deserved or not. So what does that mean for the rest of us who are kind of along for the ride. It is shocking. And I guess what is shocking to me, and maybe it shouldn't be, is how you have this incredibly like clumsy. I would be embarrassed, I guess I'll say that, and then to still be told like, no, no, these are the smartest guys around. These are the men that you can trust
with safely architecting the future for all of us. They're like, you're in good hands. Like I can't like those two things, Like I can't square that circle, the math's not mathing.
I don't.
I can't watch something like this unfold and then be like, oh, I trust these guys. I wouldn't trust these guys to like drive the first leg of a long car trip, you know what I mean, let alone be ushering in this like incredibly important tech enabled future for all of us. It's just like it's just a lot. Yeah, it's just a lot to be asked to swallow.
Totally. It totally is.
And you know, I think the big question that I have right now is like what's going on with the funders?
Like what you know?
So, I mean, who's pushing you know, who's pushing against this grain. I'm starting to wonder about the composition, demographic composition of funders. You live in a society where change move moves at a glacial pace, and you know, lots of times it feels like two steps forward, one step back. Sometimes it feels like one step forward, two steps back.
You know, like there's just and then something like this happens, and it kind of in some sense makes you feel like a total loss for all of humanity that you know, this can be so played out so blatantly, you know, in such a public way, and that there are still investors and still people who have hope or belief that the clowns leading the show are going to really like be able to salvage trust and confidence in the company again, you know, loss of words for trying to figure out
why this isn't more of an issue that's being talked about on a broader national level, Like why you know, I think when everything first played out, there was like this chakunah and then you know, and I said it in my piece and then it turned into like, you know, gossip girl, like what this craziness like that you know, this company cannot survive because of the behavior of their ousted leader doing all these shenanigans trying to like squirm his way back in, and you know, and then here
we are, and I've seen pieces come out that are like, oh uh, you know, it's all good now, and you know Sam's reputation is better than it's ever been.
Because that's what you really care about.
I can't figure out, you know, there's a lot of goofiness happening here, and somebody needs to take accountability for it. And I don't know whether it's like the investors or the leaders of this company, or you know, us as a society for like not being louder about you know, are tolerant or intolerance or tolerance for these shenanigans.
I just don't know.
I think it's a sad state of affairs what happened with that company, And it's a sad state of it demonstrates a lot of the really core issues of what happens in the tech industry and what happens in innovative spaces. You know, when you have people who haven't been trained in how to appropriately manage and how to appropriately lead a diverse workforce, you know, you're left with these type of situations, which is unfortunate.
Yeah, and I think you really ground it in something that I think is important to repeat, which is that this really matters. Right, Like, we are all having these conversations about the way that AI is poised to perhaps deeply change our world and change the way that we work, change the way that we do a lot of things. And so if the people who are leading in that change are not able to do so in a way where they are effectively managing inclusive and diverse workforces to
do that, I think it hurts all of us. Like, I know that you're not necessarily like an AI per, but I did want to get your thoughts on this.
So.
Lynette Mukami is a social search and analytics editor at Kennya's Nation media group, and she argues that conversations around AI has up until now really centered around things like power, profit and efficiencies, with little focus on its potential for social good. She says a lot of this has to do with who is leading the conversation, which is it's white men, So it's all the perspectives of white men.
And if we had more female techies and thought leaders in that conversation, we might see different AI solutions.
So I guess do you think that the way that we.
Are centering the voices of white men in these conversations are really just leaving us all having like limited insights and views and perspectives because we're just reflecting a very pacific kind of mindset.
I agree.
So again, not in the AI space, but I am in the statistics space and the official statistics you know, national statistics space, and so I have done a lot of thinking and writing and research on the idea of, you know, the stories that we know, the stories that we tell about who we are, are very much reflected by the voice of people in power. And one example of that which I think overlays this idea of whose story is AI telling. Think about economic statistics, right, and
you think about how we capture economic statistics. At the end of the day, you know, economics is really about doing something that produces a good, or produces a benefit, or produces something for somebody else or something for yourself. Women have been extremely economically active throughout the entire existence of humans, and yet when you look at economic statistics like labor force participation, you see really big gap between
women and men's labor force participation. And it's partly because the only type of economic activity who captures the type of economic activity that historically has been done by men. We just completely ignore all the economic activity that women do in their homes, for their families, et cetera, you know, all the unpaid work.
And so.
You know, part of like what I've been trying to do in the field of economics is really kind of force this reckoning of an awareness that we need to stop telling the economic stories of women through the lenses of men, and we need to start telling the economic stories of women through the lenses of women. And that means we need to stop tying ourselves to these storylines
that men have built. And I think that the same is true in AI, like you know, to the extent that it's using training data that's historical and was built to describe, you know, the world in which white men live, Like that is what is going to start predicting back out to us. And you know, that's not okay, and we need to be thinking harder about that. And I'll just say those current turn of events that open AI gives me zero confidence in the company's ability to take those things seriously.
We need people from more backgrounds and identities making decisions about technology, like AI, not just because it's nice or it's good to have diversity, but because it is critical to making technology that safely and effectively serves the most people. Those voices are out there too. On Mozilla's podcast Irl, the other podcast I host, we talk to them and about their work, asking who has the power in AI.
But these same voices are often at best ignored or at worse punished when they speak up about ethics and technology like AI, and it hurts all of us. For instance, when Jeffrey Hinton, some times called the godfather of AI, recently spoke out about his fears around AI technology he helped build, he was championed. Meanwhile, women and women of color like tim net Gabru, who was pushed out of Google for being critical about the risks associated with AI,
are punished for it. Shutting already traditionally marginalized people out of the rooms where decisions are being made and power is being held. Is not just bad because like it's not nice or like just like ya diversity. It's as I've seen men joking about on Twitter, Like if you searched open AI and women on Twitter, you have men, some of whom like work in tech and like have
the place that they work in their bio. When people are complaining that, like oh, the women are pushed out of the board, they're like, oh, it's not a bad open AI is not a battered women's shelter. It turns out like things like that that it's like, you really don't get it because it harms us all when technology and economic decisions that are connected to that technology are made by just not enough kinds of people, like, it's
actually dangerous. It makes technology, Like we've already seen all the different ways that technology harms people of color, harms non native English speakers, harms women, or you know, at best, doesn't see us. At worse harms us. And so it's not just something to do because it's nice. It actually matters for all of us that we are included in a meaningful way. And I think the fact that so
many men are just unable to see that. They still think it's like people like we got to have women on the board because it looks good, or because it's nice, or because it's diversity and it's woke in twenty twenty three, as opposed to really not seeing the way that it truly does matter for everybody them included really does not fill me with confidence.
Yeah, I agree, I mean, and I do think that, you know, the kind of space where we need to really focus in on moving forward.
Is a space that really.
Forces kind of all of the voices to the table. And you know, one way that I think is sometimes powerful in getting men to understand the dynamic or how women can be disadvantaged by the world we live in is to really for them to see it through the eyes of their children, through the eyes of their daughters, Like, is this the legacy that they want to leave for
their children? Is this you know, these stifled opportunities that women often have, or you know, the additional challenges that women experience and engaging in leadership roles, Like is that is that the legacy that they want to leave for the next generation and for their own daughters? And you know, hopefully the answer would be no, but maybe it would be yes. I mean, you know, part of the problem is that when people have power, you know, they rarely
want to give it away. So it's like, you know that that's right there is the core of this struggle is like how do we get people to understand that by being more inclusive, you're not actually giving your power away. You're actually strengthening your power because you're allowing for more diverse voices to be heard, which allows you to improve
whatever it is that you're doing. Like, I think a lot of people just don't get that we have this idea that there's only a certain amount of the pie, and you know, if I have to share any of my pie with somebody else, that's going to be less for me. And I think that's a really shortsighted perspective to have.
Yeah, I mean it's true, and it doesn't always feel good to talk about. It's like kind of heavy and grim, but I have to say, like reading your work, you actually strike me as somebody who is despite all of that dark stuff, is actually kind of like positive and hopeful when it comes to women and our place and in economics, bonus question, what does Taylor Swift tell us about women and our place.
In the economy right now?
I mean people can't see because this is a podcast, but you're I assume you're in your office and there's that Taylor Swift eras tour poster behind you. Yes, what is what is what is swift? What is swift Enomics and what does it tell us about where we are as women right now.
Yeah, I'm so glad you asked this question.
So you know, I lived the first portion of my life, like I said, feeling very frustrated that the struggle was real for women, and that it was you know, we had to think more, we had to process more in terms of like leadership and how we wanted to present ourselves because people would react to us different way. And I finally got to a point where I was just tired of being frustrated, and so I thought, you know,
can we flip the storyline here. Men have enormous amounts of privilege in you know, our nation, but also across the globe, and they have a lot of men have something that I call care privilege, meaning that they have
other people taking care of their care needs. I don't have anybody taking care of my care needs, okay, And I have two children in a spouse, you know, an aging mom, so you know, I am always having to give care and that means that the way that I present myself at my job and at work looks different. And I'm tired of feeling frustrated about that inequality, and so I just have decided that it's time to flip
the script. And I'm tired of living in a man's world and I just want to live in my own and my own world looks different and represents itself differently, and you know, I can can't feel bad about that anymore. And you know, the Swifty Nomics, my book that's coming out, is really about celebrating the ways in which, even though adversity confronts all of us in different ways, it's really
about thriving through that adversity. It's about celebrating reinvention. So we all know, you know, Taylor Swift is essentially my muse for the book because she is the queen of reinvention if you know anything about her story and how she survived. And so it's really I think we need to give ourselves more credit, and we need to create a space for ourselves, just mentally and emotionally where we can stop feeling like we need to fight the struggle and just start living the life that we want to
live in whatever form that takes place. And yeah, calling people out on their bullshit, you know, never gonna stop doing that. But I just really want women to appreciate, even through all the difficulties, all the amazingness that we give out to the world and that we you know, all of our successes. I think we need to celebrate that more so.
Ultimately, would you say it's a love story that's meant to be a Taylor Swift joke?
I don't know. I was like, I got to.
End on a Taylor Swich joke, but I was like that one might be too like I love it.
I love it, Yes, one the love story.
You're asking women to live their wildest dreams.
That's right, You're so good.
I'm actually looking at a list of Taylor Swift songs as we speak.
So I love it.
Missy. Thank you so much for being here.
Is there anything that I did not ask that you want to make sure gets included in this conversation.
No, I just want to say thank you for inviting me. This is such an important topic, and I really, I really hope that as we move forward, things get better and not worse in this space, and I hope that more people start calling out kind of the inequalities that we're seeing take place before our very eyes in a very juvenile fashion.
Listeners, y'all heard it here. Your homework from this episode is call somebody out. On their bullshit today.
That's great.
Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi? You can reach us at Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me bridget Toad. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amado is our contributing producer. I'm your host,
bridget Toad. If you want to help us grow, rate and review.
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