There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production of iHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Joey. Welcome back to the show. I've missed you. It's been a minute.
Hey Bridget, it has missed you too.
How have thinks been in Joey Land? What's new? What's up? How have you been?
Things have been good.
I actually had a new show launch that I worked.
On through iHeart let's call it Afterlives.
The first episode is of now if people want to check that out, would much appreciate it might be having a bit of a crossover with There Are No Girls on the Internet the next couple of weeks. But yeah, it's been a you know, been a busy couple of weeks with that.
I'm so excited. I think that it's going to be It's like one of the most anticipated podcasts for a while, so people should definitely check it out. You'll hear more here about this soon, but definitely check it out. I'm really excited about it. And that's a great segue into talking about some of the news that folks might have missed on the Internet this week. We actually got a little bit of good news that will actually be a really good thing for survivors of domestic violence and their children.
That's the passage of the Safe Connections Act. This will require telecommunications companies to adopt programs for people dealing with the horrors of domestic violence and other similar crimes, including removals from family billing plans within two business days upon request, low cost emergency phone replacements for domestic violence victims, and cloaking of call and text logs to domestic violence hotlines
and shelters. Domestic violence organizations are really cheering this new legislation, and I think it really goes to show how big of a role technology can play in domestic violence and what a role it has to play in helping get people who are experiencing that into safer situations. Jessica Rosenwarsol, who became the first woman to lead the FCC back in twenty twenty one, told NBC News when I took over the Federal Communications Commission, these are not the things
I thought I would be doing. But if you're trying to separate from someone who's abusing you, one of the things that you want to do is securely get out that family plan and set up your own communications. Now, this is actually kind of a common thing. According to the National Domestic Violence Hotline, financial abuse exists in ninety
eight percent of relationships where there is domestic violence. And so if you are on a shared phone plan with somebody and they have access to how and when you use your cell phone because they are financially abusing you as well as physically abusing you, that would be a
real barrier to you getting to safety. The National Domestic Violence Hotline CEO Katie Ray Jones said that cell phones are a frequently used tool of control and manipulation in relationships where there is domestic violence, and so again this is something that will really lower a barrier to folks
getting safety and getting help that they need. Public Knowledge, a nonprofit that promotes freedom of expression and open Internet and access to affordable communications tools, said implementing the Safe Connections Act enables safe and secure line separation processes, allows for safer access to critical support resources by omitting calls to sensitive phone numbers from consumer facing call records, improves
protection against disconnection, and provides financial support through the Lifeline program to ensure that survivors can remain connected. So they mentioned the Lifeline program. The FCC manages the Lifeline program and partnership with self service providers for survivors who are low income. The program offers free or reduced price phones and data plans and minutes for eligible low income individuals.
So one thing to know about this, even though I do think it's a good step in the right direction and I'm celebrating this for sure, but one thing to know is that it really depends on what state you're in. Per Public Knowledge, these rules only allow for survivors to self certify their status as the survivor of domestic violence
to service providers explicitly allowed by a state. Public Knowledge is calling upon every state to follow the example set by New York and stand with the survivors of domestic violence by acting to swiftly enable self certification.
Yeah, that's really great to hear, honestly, Like I I feel like, at least for me, like thinking about cell phones and cell phone usage and just one of those things, it's like a little bit of a blind spot for me sometimes, like it is something that is so ingrained into everything that we do and to how we communicate with people, and it's like, I don't know. I like, I don't I don't think about my own phone plan
that much. Like I'll be honest, like I'm still on my family's plan, and like I'm lucky where I have, like you know, a good situation with my family where I can stay on their phone plan.
But yeah, it is such a it's so.
Important to how we communicate and how we kind of find safety, and it's yeah, it's really great to hear that there's at least seems to be the start of.
Some sort of structure in place for survivors.
Definitely, And to your point about not always thinking about
your cell phone. Do you remember last month when they did that test of the National Emergency Alert System where all the phones made a noise at the same time, they actually have to put out statements that were like, listen, if you're in a situation where you have a secret cell phone for your own safety, because you're being abused or you're not in a safe situation, be sure to turn that phone off because that phone is going to emit a loud noise at this time in October, so yeah,
just be aware. Like, yeah, I think it can be I agree that it can be difficult to remember cell phones and that folks in situations where they're not safe for them. It is a critical lifeline, and I think it's just so important that we really have robust programs that take into effect the role that technology like cell phones really can play and survivors get into safety. We
need to continue to fund those programs. We need to make sure they're as robust as they can be because people need them, their lives depend on it.
Yeah, yeah, and I yeah, I remember that like a month ago, and yeah, I'll be honest, like I didn't even think about it until afterwards. I was I figure, I saw something like on Twitter talking about it, and I don't know if you saw bridget, but there was like I remember some headline that was going around that was about like Amish communities and like people's phones going off and Amish communities and like getting outed for having phones.
But it was like it was so weird because that was going around is like like almost its kind of like a meme. And then at the same time, it was like yeado, there were people that were like actively put in danger because of something that seemed so routine and normal to so many of us, like, yeah, no, that's it's good to hear some good news for once, Like, yeah, I always.
News and sometimes the tech news can be so grim. So you know, I always say this on the show, We've got to take our double's where we can get them. I am a big believer in like celebrating when what it feels like some progress has been made to that point. We have rolled out some new rules around AI. So YouTube just rolled out some new rules around ai I
rated content on the platform and a blog. YouTube said that creators that don't disclose whether they've used AI tools to make altered or synthetic videos will face penalties, including having their content removed or suspension from the platform's revenue sharing program. Two spokespeople from YouTube said this is especially important in cases where the content discussed a sensitive topics such as elections, ongoing conflicts, and public health crises or
public officials. So, yeah, that sounds great, But I will add that these are the same people who pretty recently, just back in June said that election denialism is aokay on their platform. You know, they announced that they were going to stop taking down content that claims the twenty twenty election was stolen or rigged back in June. So
I guess, girl, I guess that's it. That's what y'all are saying, Like fine, And I guess it's one of those things where it's like it is hard for me to take them seriously at their word when Yeah, on one hand, they're saying election nihilism is okay on the platform, but they're also when it comes to AI, saying like, oh, well, it's important that you disclose that you've used AI when you're talking about something sensitive like an election or a
public official, which one isn't right, Like, it seems like those are two different, two different lanes you're in. But whatever. So last week, Facebook also announced a new rule stipulating that political campaigns advertising on Facebook would have to disclose when they used AI in political or social issue ads to synthetically depict people or events.
That seems concerning that they're letting. I mean, I guess it's hard to just be like you can't do that at all.
But I don't know.
I personally don't think that if you're running for office you should be using like AI content at all. Like, if you can't get real people who talk for you, maybe you should not be running for office.
I would agree, Joey. I completely agree. I mean, like, and this is not even like a It's not like we're talking about like a far away reality. A pro Ron deasantis pack already used an AI generated version of Trump's voice in a campaign ad. So yeah, it's it's I agree. I think that if I were making the rules, I would say that no campaign should be able to
use AI generated deep fakes or voice deep fakes. The Facebook rule does include carveouts for if the AI is used for like a small cosmetic thing, right, like you've used AI to clean up a photo or to crop a photo a certain way. They do allow carve outs for that. But I agree with you. I think that like allowing that, I don't know how, I don't think that's great. And I think that it really signals like where we're at on the issue of AI as it
pertains to election misinformation. A recent report from the Center for Technology Innovation found that we're really not prepared for the wave of disinformation and misinformation that is AI generated. Darrell West, a senior fellow at the same Technology Innovation, said there's going to be a tsunami disinformation in the upcoming election. Basically, anybody can use AI to create fake videos and audio tapes, and it's going to be almost
impossible to distinguish the real from the fake. So it's scary and it's real and it's happening, and we do a lot of talking and handering, and I will say that like we have. I am hopeful and believe that
we have started to have conversations about it. You know, I think from where we were in conversations about AI today, back from like a couple of months ago, I think that gone are the conversations that are like just all hype, like this is going to be so great, people are going to make so much money, Like this is going
to be so exciting, it's going to change everything. I think that we're I think that we are maybe done with that hype cycle that just posits that AI is this new, shiny piece of digital magic that we all should be really excited about, like a parlor trick. I think now we're in the part of the conversation where it's like, Okay, well, how do we really need to be thinking about this in real world application? How is
this actually going to impact us? So I am hopeful that the conversation has really turned to a place where people are concerned and want to start getting some guardrails in place before it's too late.
Absolutely, yeah, I know you're You're totally right, though I feel like I haven't all of the kind of various news cycle things that have come out about II, like in the past month, Like none of it's been positive. I don't think I've heard a single like positive AI story.
Something I remember.
I know there was a Sury listener that was about like the issue of ownership of content and you know, the fact that a lot of these AI technology they're out now, they're relying on training models that are just sort of indiscriminately taking content from the Internet, and you know, there's a lot of questions about copyright and who owns,
you know, intellectual property all of that. And it was basically saying like if AI companies have to start like paying for this stuff, if they need to start actually having regulations in place, like they're not going to profit from it, which is like something that seems super.
Obvious, like you can't just steal stuff.
You actually like you're not gonna make money if you're I don't know, like, yeah, if your entire model is being able to like steal everything and then you're making money off of it.
No shit, you're gonna make a ton of money.
And then if you were suddenly taking away the ability to steal things, you're not gonna make as much money.
But yeah, no, I think I want to feel positive about this.
I do think that people like the reception of AI and the limits of AI too, and what it can be used for is starting to change.
And it's like good to see that.
We'll see if there's actually any sort of like consequequences I guess to these companies that comes out of this, because again, like it does concern me that they're saying, like you just have to label that it's using AI, and it's still sort of allowing these campaigns to use AI, and like you, oh, they will if they if it's something that they think is going to help them, they're going to use it. And like you said that Desanta's
campaign already has. There have been a couple notable incidents within the past month of certain groups or people using AI generated images to try to, you know, construct an image of something happening that is not accurate or is not you know, entirely actual. We've already seen that happen. Every time it's happened, they've gotten called out for it. But at the same time, it keeps happening, and it definitely impacts how people see reality.
So yeah, it's it's still concerned.
I'm still definitely concerned, But I guess like it's good to see that, like, you know, people speaking out about this, and people fighting back and people trying to just sort of like perserve the ability to speak the truth in these sort of situations is at least going somewhere at least there seems to be some response to that.
Yeah, and you bring up another good point of It's interesting to me how platforms like Facebook, YouTube, Google, they are like, oh, like, we'll just label it, Like I don't know. I think that now is a time for platforms to really like this should be in my book, that should be a come to Jesus moment where platforms are like, no, but really, how can we really keep this tsunami of misinformation at bay? I think that if platforms are allowed to be the only forces setting the agenda,
I don't know how far we'll ever go. Right, It's clear to me that we need some combination of platforms, but then also government, right, like, because platforms are never going to swing big if they're grading their own homework essentially, and so yeah, I think now is the time for
platforms to really make responsible policies. I am not always very op a mystic when we are when like the only thing standing between us and like a tsunami of misinformation is like whether or not Mark Zuckerberg is going to do the right thing, or whether or not Elon Musk is going to do the right thing or the smart thing or whatever.
But I don't think that Mark Zuckerberg cares about the integrity of.
I whatever.
In no. I like, it's so funny. This came up in a conversation they had the other day about platforms that I think are just like garbage. I don't think that Facebook is like redeemable. I think that like they're at like Google, you know, I have my issues with Google, but they do provide Services' is like, oh, it's the most used search engine in the world. I get it,
Like they're they're actually doing things. Facebook, I would argue, doesn't actually produce a product that like actually makes anybody's lives meaningfully better. They only produce like chaos and darkness. At the very best you're gonna get is like an update from some girl you went to high school with or something like. They're not like they're not providing a
good service. So like, yeah, I increasingly think that Facebook, if they truly wanted to do their part to create a more robust digital landscape, they would shut down.
Totally agree.
I do think it is really interesting that there was a while where Facebook Mark Zuckerberg was able to convince us that Facebook was this like super vital platform and I mean whatever, there's a larger conversation about social media and like the role of social media has played in the past cup like two decades. But yeah, like Facebook, I'm sorry, I've seen the social network. I know Facebook started as a way for Mark Zuckerberg to like meet girls, like I don't.
Yes, there was no day.
With There's no way that was going to end up as like that was going to end well for humanity, And unfortunately we're seeing the extreme burg about how you know that's kind of played out. But it's like it never started as this thing that was meant to.
Be like for the good of humanity.
And it's so clear now that it's only caused chaos. And yeah, and I agree. I think I am pro Facebook shutting down. I you know, I will say, I do still have an account up there somewhere. I do not remember the last time I've opened it. It just doesn't have a purpose anymore other than just like creating chaos.
The thing that you said about the social network, this is like a personal pet peeve of mine. A couple of years ago, Mark Zuckerberg, I don't remember where he said this, but he was like, back when I created Facebook, it was during the invasion of Iraq, and I really wanted there to be a platform where people could engage and robust debate about the issues. And I was like, shut the fuck up, no, you fucking liar. Like we all saw the social network. We all know that Facebook
started as a platform called facematch. It was all about rating. The quote dogs in his dorm that it's his word.
Uh.
It was founded on toxicity and misogyny. And I just I thought it was really funny how he people really do think they're above reproach, that he thought that he was going to be able to completely rewrite history, as if he like could men in black flashy thing us all we'd all forget and we'd all be like, oh yeah, you know how the beginning of Facebook was the.
Irate War Award winning movie. I'm sorry.
Once you've had Jesse Eisenberg play you like there's no going back, it's just you're which love him as an actor, but like your image is ruined you. That's yeah, that's insane. I the audacity.
Fun of fact. I have seen every movie that Jesse Eisenberg has ever been in love that. I did a Jesse Eisenberg film, Deep Dive, where I was gonna pick one person and I was going to watch their whole uber. I guess this was a couple of years ago now, so maybe I need to get back into it if there's any that have come out recently that I have missed. But hell of an actor, right was born to play Marker fanastic.
Yeah, he's fantastic in that movie. Andrew Garfield too. Oh yeah, I could still quote the whole groosey flip flops scene.
But I love that. That's so funny. I God, I need to watch more of his movies.
So like, last one I can think of is the Bad Superman movie that he was in.
Oh yeah, I haven't seen it. I don't plan on watching it, but.
It was like Luthor's kind of But I guess if he plays he plays Mark Zuckerberg and he plays like Luthor, there's like a.
He has a tight Yes, let's take a quick break at her back. So, in other election news, former South Carolina governor Nikki Haley announced and quickly walked back my least favorite social media policy that people float. She promised that if she was elected, social media companies would be required to authenticate people's identity before allowing them to comment. So everything that you both on social media would be attached to your real government name and identity. What could go wrong? Right?
That's horrible.
That's a horrible idea as somebody again, as somebody who is a teenager on the internet. Two, Like, I don't think I ever used my real name like by Tumblr, never had my real na would touch that. I am grateful for the fact that I never had my real name attached to that.
Like, oh my god, same like. And also I was like when I was like first exploring the Internet, I guess I was a scene kid or an emo kid, or whoever you want to say it. So it was it was always like lowercase X, upper case X, and then like maybe it's like an ass trick, some an asterisk, and then like the name like it was always the wildest, most cumbersome, elaborate names. And that was and that was how you showed up on social media back you know, back in my day.
When we were in private country, when the scene kids ran exactly media, that was that was the peak.
Oh my god, there would be.
You would go to you would go to my I had my MySpace all tricked out so that when you went to it, first of all, it would definitely crash whatever browser you were using, but it would be like falling Stars and then like Panic at the Disco, but then the button deposit will be hidden, and so you had to listen, Like it was very important to me that you listened to this whole Panic at the Disco song while looking at my profile.
That was such an era.
I'm sure if I came across your MySpace page would have been like this person is so cool.
I would say that genuine that it's not SORRYCS.
I was like, I always wanted to be one of those people that could like totally like readdo like their tumbler, or like voting. And I'm terrible when it comes to like technology ironically, as I say on this tech podcast, but I can't, like I do not know how to code anything. But I always thought those were like the coolest blogs ever when you'd go to somebody's page and it was like.
I was, you know, the big thing when I was on.
Tumblr was like doctor Who, and it was always like the little like button that looked like the tartest Yeah, I like tind to get the disco playing.
That was so fun. That is how I learned how to code. And actually there's an entire like generation of people that customizing profiles like MySpace is why they are coders now, why they work in tech now, Like it really was a crash course. Expressing yourself online was like an early tech crash course for I think an entire generation of us. Oh yeah, Nikki Haley said, we're gonna say that they have to make sure that every person on social media is verifying. Everybody gets a verified sign
so we know exactly who they are. Haley said during a town hall with iowaccoers. What that will do is eliminate every Russian bot, Iranian bot, and Chinese bot. That's spreading all of this misinformation because it's the cheapest form of warfare for them. They're going to start to be more accountable because they know their family and their pastor is going to see it. It's going to get more civilized,
Haley said. So none of this went overwhel It didn't go over well with really anybody right, like folks on the right, folks on the left. DeSantis told conservative political commentator Glenn Beck that he thought that her plan would pave the way for a social credit system akin to one in China. So eventually, Nikki Haley kind of dialed
back her remarks on CNBC. She said that she thinks that life would be more civil if people were prohibited from posting anonymously, but that anonymous accounts would still be allowed for American citizens. She said, I don't mind anonymous American people having free speech. What I don't like is anonymous Russian or Chinese or Iranians having free speech.
So yeah, the quiet part outline, No, if you're an Iran you can just yeah, like you don't even deserve free speech.
So here's my thing about this, this idea that everybody needs to be verified with their real government name is not new. Trump floated it back when he was president, even though he also had no problem boosting anonymous accounts that he agreed with, but also at some point floated the idea that like, there should be a no anonymous accounts on social media. It comes up all the time, and it's one of those policies that maybe sounds good when you first hear it, you're like, oh, yeah, why not.
But then when you actually think about it and think about the way the internet works, you start to realize truly what a dangerous disaster it would be if everything that you ever said on the Internet had you be associated with your first and last government name, and it would absolutely harm and silence and criminalize the most marginalized among US, people who are already harmed and criminalized in
silence on social media platforms or face harsh consequences. We're speaking up folks like whistleblowers, activists, survivors of violence, dissidence, sex workers, The list goes on and on. David Green, director of Civil Liberties at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, put it really well, saying, for these individuals and the organizations that support them, secure anonymity is critical. It may literally save lives. Anonymous communications have an important place in our
political and social discourse. Yeah. I just think that if it wasn't for anonymous accounts online, we would never have things like the Me Too movement. We probably never have things like filming police and posting it on social media. Think of all of the ways that anonymous accounts on social media have really pushed our social and political discourse farther.
And I just think that again, it might seem like the kind of thing that sounds like it would work when you first hear it, but it would absolutely harm people who are marginalized.
Yeah, I mean, even going back to the story up at the top about the FCC and you know, talking about cell phones and survivors of domestic assault and our domestic abuse. Yeah, social media has been another tool where people can talk anonymously about their experiences. Do you know, like you said, there is a hypocrisy and that like you know, Trump was one of these people that floated this idea, and the same time, he's happy to uplift
anonymous accounts when it serves his narrative. But I think, like, especially from the right right now, there's this weird like fixation on anonymity and the way that anonymity is used. Yeah, oftentimes as a tool for political activism and for social movements, but it's like, at the same time, it's just kind of a normal part of like online discourse. I mean, just think about like how many like really big like Twitter accounts that are like comedy accounts that are like totally anonymous, like.
Like Drill.
Like I feel like it would break the whole like kind of character if I knew who that person was in real life, Like I don't want to know their name. They're just this faceless like Twitter account that I see that always puts out like weird things that are like kind of funny.
I yeah, I don't know.
It's just such a like normal part of the Internet landscape that, yes, can be used for a tool for political activism. It is important in that sense, but at the same time, it's just a part of the way that people communicate.
Yeah, imagine if instead of Drill it was Colin James in Richmond, Virginia. It's like these like anonymity has been part of the Internet for as long as the Internet has been a thing. I think that it's one of those things where people try to reverse that they might not really be thinking about the ways that would not just harm people, but also break our understanding of the Internet, like it is a foundational part of how we communicate
online and certainly has a place in online discourse. The Internet would not be what it is today if not for anonymity. So, speaking of online discourse, the gaming publication PC gamer put out a roundup for their thirtieth anniversary, rounding up influential voices who worked on PC gamer in the last thirty years, and guess what they did not include a single woman. People were calling out influential women
in the space, women like ROBERTA. Williams, who co founded Sierra Online, who is sometimes called like the Queen of adventure games, and Mabel Atis, who was the first video game writer. People were seriously pissed, like, I don't think I've ever seen such clear and quick condemnation of a piece of magazine writing in a long time. People were referencing that billy on the street name a dollar miss
miss for a dollar name a woman. Also side note, if somebody with a microphone came up to me and asked me that, I don't think I think I would be like bread Pitt, wait.
Would think I would totally same, absolutely and it was a great clip though. I love it.
So this was going around on social media with people somewhat confusing the issue, saying that that particular thirtieth anniversary PC Gamer issue was meant to be celebrating the people who worked for the magazine PC Gamer, not the gaming industry in general. But here's my thing, I still feel like that is still not great, Like I don't know that PC Gamer should be celebrating how not diverse and how not inclusive their coverage has been for the last
thirty years. In twenty twenty three, Andrew e Vernee, founder of What's Good Games, tweeted, feels like an intentional troll to not include any women in their list of influential voices over the last thirty years. It isn't possible. They just truly did not notice, Right? Is there not a single woman on the team responsible for the celebration issue and did not even one man on the team notice and say something, this is what backsliding and plane sight
looks like. And I also just think overall, it like just does not represent where the gaming space is and is headed. There are tons of LGBTQ folks women, people of color in the gaming space right now. These people have been making games, but also writing about games, streaming about games, you know, taking on serious issues in the space, like that deep fake skin where popular women video game streamers were ridiculed with non consensual deep fakes of them.
I just don't think that in this moment what we
need is a celebration of homogeny in this moment. In a really thoughtful piece called Dear Video Game Industry, please name a woman, Alyssa Marconte writes, though the gamer gate trolls have lessened in number since twenty fourteen, or perhaps many of them have slunk back to their dank caves to hit their jewels, wank and blow the embedded food prumbs out of the crannies of their keyboard, the harassment that women in gaming experience is no less intense than
it was nine years ago. The only way to stop that harassment is to make the existence of women and BIPOC and l GBTQI plus people so normal, so obvious, so in your face that objecting to it would be like fighting against a rip current. The phrase that we repeat at infinitum until we're blue in the face representation matters.
That means that the game Awards shouldn't just try out the same well known male developers it does every year, or relegate co host Sidney Goodman to a side stage when she hands out the small awards like Best Esports Coach or Favorite Community. It means that ign Summer of Gaming live stream deck shouldn't feature four white men and PC gamers exhaustive look back on its thirty year history
shouldn't be devoid of women contributors. It means that there should be more female voices elevated on Twitch, at industry events and developer meetings and at conventions and just yes to everything will put the link to the piece in the show notes. It is definitely worth a read. But I think that the issue that people are screaming about here is cultural. It's like, you can't just tell me that this is the face of the space right now.
I understand that this was meant to be people who worked on this particular magazine, but even that doesn't feel good to be like, oh, well, we're celebrating ourselves and how we're all white men. Like No, I don't think that in twenty twenty three that is an accurate representation of where the space is. And I just think that, you know, big institutions like PC gamer, we ought to be able to expect better from them by now.
Yeah, and I mean piece of gamer. It's a it's a big publication.
It's not like this is some small company coming out and just being like we're going to celebrate our team like they have. It's not like there aren't women for them to choose from to elevate the women aren't there. I think again trying to you know, see a hopeful kind of spin on this. Obviously, like Gamery came up in that quote and gamer Gate comes up a lot in this podcast.
I think like the seeing the changed from.
Just everything that happened with Gamergate to this article coming out now and the backlash that it's facing, that it feels positive to me.
Like that feels like some positive change.
The fact that I think women and people of color, LGBTQ plus people like we were able to band together a little bit more and actually like stand up ourselves and that that that structure is there and that support is there. We know that that kind of like, you know, we're all kind of in the same boat here. We're all gonna kind of support each other against this really cis white male, homogenous narrative that is they're attempting to
craft here. So yeah, I again, I mean this is a good Like it's good to see that the that backlash is happening, but.
Yeah it is.
Again it's twenty twenty three, Like I feel like we are well past the whole like gamer bros. Stereotype idea of like who plays video games. At least I thought we were kind of past that clearly, Like, I mean, you know, harassment is going to continue to happen because unfortunately, like that was just kind of the world we live
in that shouldn't be the norm. And I do think we should continue to write back against that, but like you know, but yeah, it is like this just seems like such an obvious like blind spot for them, and and yeah, like again glad to hear that people are speaking out, and I really hope that something changes because of this.
Yeah, And it's so important because I just moderated a panel with the Family Online Safety Institutes gathering and this came up again and again, this idea that more and more people of all identities are showing up in the gaming space, especially since the pandemic, and so it's why making sure that these spaces, our space is where everybody is represented, everybody can show up safely truly does matter
so much. And I think that institutions like PC gamer need to just be better about representing that and representing where we really are. Like imagine if they had taken this time to look back on the legacy of the space being treated like a white cis boys club, right, and the harm that that it's caused, and how they
were planning to do better going forward or something. I do think that they have such a responsibility and also a power to really make sure that the space is being shaped in a way where folks can really be represented for who they are showing up to the space.
Yeah.
Absolutely, I mean I think it is really interesting like video games, and you mentioned like post beginning of the pandemic.
I don't like saying post pandemic because I don't think it is fair to say that, but you know, post the beginning of shutdown, the beginning of lockdown, a lot more people have found solids in video games, and I have kind of become more involved in like you know, video game spaces and communities, and I think like that whole idea of shattering who the gamer bro is and all of that who's playing video games, Like that's something that we're seeing kind of across a lot of entertainment
sort of things right now. I think it is just it's the yeah, the whole conversation about representation. It is why it is important when it comes to movies, it is important when it comes to I.
Don't know, I only I always because I feel like a.
Big issue for me is always representation of movies and when it comes to like queer people with color, women, whatever, and it feels like such a silly thing on top of like all of the various terrible.
Things happening in the world.
But it really does like impact how we see each other and how we see like, you know, movies, video games, all this.
It's part of our culture.
It's part of like how we it's it is part of how we see each other, and it is important to see ourselves reflected. It is important to see people with out their experiences reflected. Otherwise you're going to sort of create these weird bubbles for people where all they're seeing is just white straight men and that's not the reality of the world.
So yeah, I am.
It's nice to see that we're kind of there has been a change since this sort of like game or gait thing that happened like what like I think it was ten years ago, like almost exactly. Yeah, and and the way that conversation has changed. It's disappointing to see how much work there's will needs to me like needs
to happen, especially like from an institutional level. I think, like you know, the fans have changed, but that doesn't necessarily mean that like these institutions, these companies have changed. And I think that's kind of the next uh sort of phase of that.
But yeah, it's yeah, more after a quick break, let's get right back into it. Well, to that end, I have to talk about what's going on with this new movie the Marvels. I kind of saved this topic until you were here. I was like, I want to talk about this with them, like I know, I have a feeling that you'll have thoughts. Have you heard about this new movie? Have you seen it?
I have heard of it, I will be honest, I haven't seen it. Thank you version for shaving for you. As you know, I'm a big superhero fan. I'm a big Marble fan. I have a lot of thoughts on this, to be totally honest, I have not watched a lot of the most.
Recent I'm seeing stuff.
I'm sure we're going to get into it, but I do think it is really interesting that like Marvel obviously had a really big moment in pop culture, and I think there was a point where it was it was really popular and it was really resonated with a lot of people.
I think we have seen the past like year or so that's kind of fallen off.
I assume that Disney was at least somewhat aware of that, the fact that people were kind of losing interest. I think there definitely are things they could do to get audiences to come back. I don't think they're doing that, and I think they are unfairly putting a lot of the blame on a lot of the women and people of color that have kind of they pseudo elevated within these companies. But yeah, I'm sure I kind of get
into that. But yeah, I haven't seen it. I probably will at some point, but yeah, I.
Don't know.
I haven't really had an interest in going to sit through another move and see You movie lately.
Yeah, so I should say full disclosure, I have also not seen it, and I also just generally don't watch a lot of movies like this, although I am I watched wand Division, so I like it a little bit. I'm not like, I'm not like opposed to it, But so if for folks who don't know the Marvels stars Bree Larsen as Captain Marvel and Tiana Paris as astronaut Monica Rambo, who we saw in wand Division, the movie
is like not doing great at the box office. On opening weekend, the movie generated around forty seven million dollars, which Rebecca Rubin at Variety said is the worst debut in the MCU history. I was under the impression that the film must be getting like terrible review as. I was like, oh, it must be a bad movie. But I checked it out on Rotten Tomatoes, which I will say caveat. We talked about that like maybe people can gamify that, so keep that in mind. But the reviews
actually look fair to mix to me. It's sixty two percent fresh for critics eighty four percent fresh for audience, so it doesn't look like it's like the reviews are terrible. I guess not being panned.
Yeah, I will say also, I have heard I haven't seen it, but I have a couple of friends with it, and I all thought it was like good, you know, it's a Marvel movie.
Yes there's but yeah it's I mean, I've heard good things about it.
Same, so you know, I have not seen this movie. But social media was social media and was quick to blame the poor performance on wokeness, which is a claim that is like so silly that it's not even worth disputing here. But then those conversations took another turn, namely blaming the box office failure on the director n Acosta. Nacosta is a black woman. She's actually the first black woman to ever direct a Marvel movie. On Twitter, critics
are basically not movie critics. Like social media critics, we're basically trying to make it seem like she is the reason in the movie is not performing well. One tweet that was viewed almost five million times claimed quote, the director of the Marvels had only directed one feature before, it was the failed retelling of Candy Man. They're letting people with barely any experience direct two hundred and fifty million dollar films based on their race and gender. Be
as critical of it as you want. It's all rigged. I have so many problems with that. My first problem
is that it's not even true. A community note was added to that tweet, saying that Nia DaCosta wrote and directed the crime thriller Little Woods back in twenty eighteen, winning the Nora Effren Prize at the Tribecca Film Festival, before directing Candy Man and then directing Marvels, So that resume puts her squarely in line with previous NCU directors like John Watts, who had a very similar resume before directing their first Marvel film, Right, And so that's one.
Two is this idea that I absolutely cannot stand, which is like, oh, she only got what she got for being a black woman. They don't give black women anything. I can tell you that. So if you are a black woman and you got something, you got somewhere, you got an honor, an accolade, you earned that shit, right, Like they're not just giving away like if you were. If you are in these rooms and getting these things, you got them because you earned them. They don't give
us anything. So that that claim in and of itself is it just it just makes me laugh it just makes me laugh.
Right, And Okay, Also, I'm like what iron Man came out in like two thousand and eight, I think like it's been around for a while. The fact that it's been over ten years and this is their first black woman that they have directing a film, I think maybe just their second black director.
Period of I might be wrong with that, I'll double check. But that's not good for them? Is that good? Like I have a whole but yeah, no, the whole thing, especially about like the other directors too. I mean.
Honest, like none of the director Marvel movies really had like super critically acclaimed stuff beforehand, and the ones that did it usually was like specifically because they okay, like the Russo brothers did like Community before they did all the Marvel, which I love Community, it's a great show, but it's like that's like a it's a sitcom.
It's not like an action movie. And then they got this huge action movie deal and like the movies did well and they kept getting more movies because of that.
But it's like they started in the same place. Yeah, and I mean other direct like a lot of yeah, a lot of their directors came from very like sort of smaller film backgrounds before they did Marvel movies, like saying that, oh, it's this one person's like they were the exception.
No, she wasn't like this.
This has just kind of been their their formula. I also, I have a whole theory about this. I think the fact that, like I kind of mentioned before, or I think Disney is somewhat aware of the fact that people are losing interest in superhero movies. You know, it was a big trend, and trends fall off, and I think like people are always gonna love like Spider Man and like, you know, the big ones like those are always gonna
get big audiences. But the MCU just doesn't have the same kind of like cultural power that it did like a couple of years ago.
I think they know that.
I think the fact that all of a sudden they suddenly seem super interested in putting women and people of color and queer people in their movies.
I think it's almost sort of.
Like a weird like latch, like like they're sort of using it as a like great, now we can just sort of like turn the blame on them, Like the first one I can remember that was sort of like a big thing that it like didn't do very well, and it was was Eternals, which Chloe Dial directed, who's a fantastic director, and that also was a movie where
they intentionally included a lot of actors of color. I think they changed one of the characters to be uh instead of a man, and they like included a queer couple.
And then the movie didn't do very well, and I think it was very like the company didn't outright say anything, but they were sort of like they let the discourse go in the direction of like, oh, well, it didn't it gets same thing, like it didn't do well because of wokeness, Like it gives them sort of a weird like it is it is really messed up that they're like kind of now positioning themselves, and I think that kind of has what they've been doing for like the
past years when they've been positioning themselves. It's like we're putting out the Marvels, which is this movie with like all of these women and directed by a woman of color. But then they're not, like they're not putting the same effort into marketing that they did with their other movies, and they're allowing it like when it doesn't do well.
Instead of being like, yeah, we recognized that that was on us, or like we just recognized that kind of the market's changing, they're letting the blame fall on women like Na Costa and just the back that this is like a female bled movie. And again, personally, I'm personally not a big Captain Marvel fan, Like I don't think
she's that interest sing of a character. But I think like everything that Brie Larson has gone through because of like the stuff that she's done with Marvel is so like it's so disapporting, just like the level of the harassment that she's kind of faced and this is just such a clear example of that happening, and it is it is really weird that they're Yeah, again, like the fact that they're kind of first of all positioning themselves
is like, look how progressive we are. We are putting out this movie with all these women of color and putting out all these TV shows we're having like more diversity. But then they're not owning up to the fact that they're setting a lot of these women up to be harassed and to face that kind of backlash on people.
That is an interesting theory, And I tell you, I mean, the studio could put out statements talking about how proud they are to have their first black female Marvel director, or like really advocating and supporting the people who are in this movie. They could make it clear that they are sticking by them and that they're championing them. And I think and as far as I know, and if anybody knows, like let me know, but as far as
I know, they're not really doing that. Like you could loudly affirm, like we stick by her talent.
I don't think they have, but I do know in the past they haven't because and this isn't just Mark, I mean it is like Disney is the parent company. Like I know, in the last kind of set of like Star Wars movies came out, that was a whole thing where Kelly Murray tran uh is, you know, a woman of color was a lead in the second of the prequel or of the sequel movies. I think she was fan I thought she was great in that movie. She received so much harassment just for being in that movie.
John Boyego also received a ton of harassment for being a black man in those movies. And Mark, I mean not Marvel, Disney did not stick up for them at all, So I'm not surprised to see that the same thing is now happening.
But again their other property, What do I.
Think it's going on there?
I mean, I honestly think it is like the sort of weird combination of them wanting to have this facade of being like, look, we are elevating people of color, We're elevating women, but then when push comes to shove, not standing up for them and not you know, I wasn't it like, because there was a whole thing a couple of years ago too with like Chris Pratt was getting a bunch of hate online.
I would argue rightfully so.
Because because I thought seemed to be a good person.
But like the way that all of the other like Barble actors like jumped to support him was like weird. It was so especially like that happening after all the stuff with Bree Larson originally, and yeah, all the stuff that happened on like the Star Wars side of like Disney's kind of various things that they own. Yeah, it really like there definitely is like a double standard there. I'm not sure what the internal feelings are from disneyside
not me trying to like start conspiracies about Disney. But yeah, no, there definitely is a discrepancy with how they treat their white male actors and how they treat their the women that work for them and the people of color and the queer people at work for them.
So there's some somethings up.
Something's up. Also, side note, imagine if you were a woman of color who had faced harassment because you dared to be in a Disney property, and then you got the call where it's like, we need everybody to publicly tweet supportive Chris Bratt right now, Oh my god, that would chef my ass.
I honestly, I can't remember if Free Large and Ever like release the statement around that, but I don't think she didn't, which I also I totally support her.
If she did not, that was but yeah, that's that is. I would be so mad. I would be so mad.
I completely agree with your point about institutions wanting the accolades that come with the appearance of like we have an inclusive cast, an inclusive director, but then not actually doing the things that it takes to support those people, right, Like, it's not just about hiring marginalized people. It is about also creating the conditions that allow those people to do
their jobs and thrive. And so if you're just gonna hire them and then be quiet when they face unfair, gendered or racialized harassment, you're not actually doing anything to get accolades for You're just like setting them up to
become punching bags so that you can look more. You know, I don't know with it or whatever, like, like, I really take issue with that, And I think another point to this that really I think I've made this point on the show before, but when you have these films that are being unfairly and harshly critiqued for things about like the race or the gender the people who are in them, or the director or whatever, it does create this situation that I hate where people like well Meeting
people feel the need to really go overboard to defend these movies, to be like, oh, I'm gonna like this city is getting all this unfair racist, sexist hate, so that I'm gonna be the champion of that movie. But I don't like that either. I want to be able to just watch the movie and judge it or critique it on its merit. I understand that, but like it is just not the climate in which I want to
see a movie. I want to watch a movie and be like, here's what I liked about it, here's where it fell short, and not feel like I'm having to do some kind of like weird activism by tweeting about how much I like it to defend it from these racist, sexist attacks.
Right yeah, Because then the other side of it is like it's still like it's still a Marvel movie, it's still Disney movie. It is still like a movie that is being cruised by this like multi billion dollar company. Like there's nothing really particularly progressive about like going out and supporting this movie.
I don't know.
I mentioned this earlier, like I'm not a big fan of Captain Marble. I didn't really think that was a good movie. I haven't seen this one yet.
I don't.
I really loved the Miss Marble Show. I thought that was great. I'm excited to see, like, you know, that actress was fantastic. I think, like I'll probably see the movie because I do want to see her again. But
it's like, yeah I should, I don't. I don't want to have to feel like I have to defend this movie somehow because this is going to be the epitome of feminism and film for the next couple like that, which is another weird thing I think like Marvel and Disney has done, is they've because they've kind of taken over the market so much. It's like every time, like everything they do within movie like that is the standard. So it's like when they put a woman in a movie,
you have to go support it. You have to go watch it, otherwise you're not supporting women in film. And it's like, no, you could go watch another movie made by a woman that probably has a more feminist, you know, message or whatever. Like I again, I haven't seen this movie, but like the message of the Last Captain Marvel movie was sort of like yay, we love the military, which I don't think is like the best.
Thing to be putting out there, but yeah, I don't know it is. It is really weird.
Same with Yeah, like the I think they've kind of done the same thing when it comes to you narratives about people of color, narratives about women. They probably have not had that many queer characters yet, but it is sort of weird to be seeing like like they had the like Doctor Strange movie there was a queer character. The only reason you would know that she was queer is because she has a tiny uh Pride flag pin on her jacket. And they acted like they were like
they were like, yes, diversity win for us. We did such a good job. And it was like, no, I like dinety nine percent of the people that watched that didn't pick up on that.
That is not like, if that is the standard you're setting for queer representation, we are fucked.
Like it's God, I did you ever watch that show on HBO? The other two I haven't.
I've been meaning too though, Okay, I.
Don't want to spoil it. There's a plot line where somebody's in it I think a Disney movie and it's like, oh, it's the first openly gay blob in a movie. How do you know he's gay because he sleeps with women, not other blobs. And this, you know, is like the levels that they will go through to be like, see, we did it. She's wearing a pin like.
My favorite somebody who made a collage one time of all the articles of the different like first gay character and dissy movie, which they were like and all of them like we made a we made a slight comment that could have been interpreted as a character coming out, but you know what, we left it ambiguous enough that like the right wing won't care.
It's so weird. They love patting themselves on the back for the bare minimum.
Yeah, like a character. They're they're they're gaze lingered a little bit, and that's how you're supposed to know. Like that was supposed to be the coming out scene, y'all. So for all of this, I will I do have to say that it does sound like the director DaCosta is not sweating it. In an interview with Variety's Angelique Jackson, she said, there are pockets where you go because you're like, I'm a super fan. I want to exist in the
space of just adoration, which includes civilized critique. Then there are pockets that are really virulent and violent and racist and sexist and homophobic and all those awful things. And I choose a side of the light that is the part of the fandom that I'm most attracted to. And I really liked that it's like not focusing on the hatred, the racism, the homeophobia, all of that, but focusing on
the light. Because she's got a great career ahead of her, she's already hit a lot of like really dynamic and exciting career milestones. I was happy to read that she is not letting this get to her, that she's focused on the light.
Yeah, that's good to hear.
And that's really interesting too, because I mean, you brought up her other her last film that she did was Candy Man, which there was another one where there was a whole like it wasn't as big as this, obviously, but there was a whole like it came out right before the lockdown started. There was a whole thing about like marketing and how that and that conversation too, and yeah, and again it came out like right before everything shut down, so it was sort of hard to you know, hold
that up to the same standards. But yeah, I mean, she seems like she's a super talented individual, and I hope the.
Best for her.
And you know, it's unfortunate that this has kind of been the the experience that she's had with Marvel and with Disney, but I do truly hope.
The best for her.
And again, I do think that, you know, the future of cinema, the future of storytelling, especially storytelling that is aimed at marginalized folks. It's not going to come from Disney. It's not going to come from these big companies. It's going to come from these really talented individuals that are making art that really reflects what they want to see in the world.
So I truly hope the best for her and for all.
Of the you know, swept aside women, people of color, queer people of the Disney machine. Maybe they can all come together and do their own thing and it'll be way better than anything Disney's made in the past ten years anyway.
So yeah, well, speaking of very talented individuals, Joey, thank you so much for being here and talking through all these stories with me anytime.
Loved being on, always down to you know, talk sit about Disney and Marble.
And just in case folks missed it, tell us again it at the new pod.
Yes, thank you for reminding me. You all should go check out. It's called Afterlives The Leali and Polanco Story. Uh it is available. The first episode is out wherever you listen to podcasts. Our host is Raquel Willis, who's a super awesome journalist, activist. She's done a lot of really amazing work within the trans community and trans storytelling. She also has a memoir that's coming out I think next week, but yeah, you should check it out after Lives.
It is a heavy one.
We do have our trigger warnings and everything up top, so definitely pay attention to those, take care of yourself. But I do think it is a really important story to get out there. It's important just in the conversation about trans folks and the violence that we face, you know, from both in her personally and from a state level, and this is a story that talks about state violence and particularly for those who but also kind of live
in New York. He talks a lot about Riker's Island and the that is an institution, which I think is just a really important conversation to be having right now. Yeah, go check it out after Lives. Wherever you get your podcasts, first episodes out.
Now, definitely check it out. Check out Raquel's new memoir, The Risk It Takes to Bloom. Joey, thanks for all the amazing work you're doing. Is you are such a force of course, Thanks Bridget, and thanks to all of you for listening. If you want more at free content, check out our patreon at Tangody dot com, slash Patreon. We'll talk to you soon, be well. If you're looking for ways to support the show, check out our mark
store at tangodi dot com slash store. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi, You can reach us at Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at TENG Goody dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me bridge It Todd. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unboss Creative, edited by Joey pat Jonathan Strickland is our execut producer. Terry Harrison is
our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amado is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.