Don't let them take away your joy, don't let them take away your hope, don't let them take away your sense of power, because if they succeed in doing that, things will indeed ever change.
There Are No Girls on the Internet.
As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. October eleventh is National Coming Out Day. We spend a lot of time on this podcast talking about the very real threats facing the LGBTQ plus community, and while there are many fights ahead, it's important not to lose sight of all the wins we've had for quality, because we're winning. Just asked Kevin Jennings.
My name is Kevin Jennings, I use hee him pronouns, and I'm the CEO of LAMB I Llegal, which is America's oldest LGBTQ plus legal right organization LAMBDA Legals.
Lawyers have won precedent setting civil rights cases on everything from marriage equality to expressions of gender identity to healthcare discrimination. But before Kevin was a CEO of the oldest LGBTQ legal rights organization in the country, he was an educator just worried about his students. So, Kevin, you actually started your career as an educator, right, like fighting discrimination for educators.
Tell me about that.
Sure. So I began my career as a high school teacher in nineteen eighty five. I'm a first generation college graduate. I was the first person in my family to go to college, and so I wanted to go back into the classroom and try to help young people have the opportunities that I had had, which no one else in my family had ever had before. My father only had a tenth grade education, my mother only had a sixth
grade education. We were very poor growing up. I grew up in a trailer park on an unpaved dirt road and unincorporated town in North Carolina, and I was raised very much with this philosophy of giving back. So I became a teacher and I lost my first job because I was gay in Providence, Rhode Island. You have to remember, in nineteen eighty five, there was only one state that band discrimination based on sexual orientation, and for people who don't know, it was Wisconsin, which comes as a surprise
to many people. So if you lost your job because you were gay, there was nothing you could do about it. So when I went to my second job, I was very nervous about kids finding out that I was gay. And I have some advice for LGBTQ plus teachers, which is, y'all, it's a glass closet. The kids always know who the queer teacher is. And sure enough I had a student who was gay come to me and come out and
say to me he was thinking of killing himself. I was twenty four, I had no training, so the first thing I could think of to say was, let's go see accounts. And he said to me something that changed the course of my life. He said, why shouldn't I
kill myself? My life isn't worth saving anyway. And that took me back to my own adolescence in North Carolina, where I had tried to kill myself when I was sixteen, and I made myself a little promise that day that whatever I did with the rest of my life, I would fight to make sure that the next generation of
queer kids did not grow up feeling like that. So a few weeks later, on November tenth, nineteen eighty eight, I got up in a school assembly and I came out to the entire school all at once, November tenth, nineteen eighty eight, was a very different time. Ronald Reagan was president. As I mentioned, only one state protected you from discrimination based on sexual orientation, so what I did was highly unusual for that time. But the next day, a young girl stormed into my office and said, I
want to start a club to find homophobia. I was kind of like, hello, nice to meet you, because she wasn't my student or anything. And I said, tell me why you care so much about this, and she said, oh, that's easy. My mother's a lesbian and I'm tired of hearing my family get put down around this school. Naive, little twenty four year old me never thought about the fact that there might be queer parents. And I said, what do you want to call this club? And she said,
I don't know. You're gay and I'm straight. Let's call it the Gay Straight Alliance.
Kevin and Matt Student ended up starting the country's first ever gay straight alliance, a first step in a growing momentum in both his life and the country.
That was the first gay straight alliance in the world. November eleventh, nineteen eighty eight, conquered Massachusetts, and it just got a snowballed from there I ended up creating an organization called GLISTEN, the Gay, Lesbian is Straight Education Network, which worked to address anti queer bias and schools. In nineteen ninety I ended up becoming its first executive director
in nineteen ninety four. I led it for fourteen years, and I eventually became Assistant Secretary of Education for President Obama, where I led a national campaign to address bullying in schools. And I'm proud to say that when President Obama left office in twenty sixteen, bullying was at the lowest level it had ever been since we had started recording the phenomenon in American schools. So for thirty years, I really dedicated my life to trying to help young people. That
was really my mission. And happy ending to the story, just you know the young man who wanted to kill himself. He lives in Brooklyn now with his husband. They are rehabilitating a brownstone. What could be gayer than that? And I went to their wedding about fifteen years ago. And the young woman who wanted to start the GSA, She's
married to a man, she has two kids. She lives in Boston, and when I visited her a few years ago, her lesbian mother, baby's at the grandkids, so everybody has a happy ending to the story.
Oh my god, that is incredible. I mean, what has it been like to have had such a foundational role in the community's history, like moving it forward? Like personally, what is that like for you?
You know, I would call myself the accidental activist. I wasn't planning. I had no career plan of any kind. I just saw there was a problem and I wanted to do something about it. It was pretty simple, you know. I've been very fortunate to be given some incredible opportunities to make a difference in the world. You know, when I graduated from college, my mother pulled me aside and
whispered her favorite Bible verse in my ear. My parents were fundamentalist Christians, and she said, Kevin, to who much has been given, much will be expected. And I was very aware, having been the first person in my family to ever have the privilege of getting a college degree, that I had a moral obligation to do what I can to try to make the world better with it. That it was more than just about going out out
there making some money. So I've been afforded some great opportunities to do that, and I'm very grateful for them.
From bathrooms to youth sports to who gets to become a teacher, education in schools have served as a battleground for many of the fights regarding a quality. Kevin says, using and exploiting people's fears to hold back progress is nothing new. Something that I see as a pattern in your work and that I see today is the way that education schools has been this battleground for LGBTQ folks
and the people who support them. It seems like that was a part of your experience, and unfortunately it's something that we're still seeing today.
Why do you think that?
Is great question, and I want to step back and put this into an even broader historical context. Whenever the dominant culture wants to panic people about a minority group, what they say is they're after your kids. Supposedly Jews drank the blood of Christian children and mis justified programs. Supposedly black men were after little white girls and this
justified lynching. Supposedly the Roma stole children and this justified putting them in concentration camps during the Nazi era, and supposedly LGBTQ plus people recruit or to use today's terminology, they groom people to be LGBTQ plus. So this is a very effective tactic because people get very irrational if they think their children are at risk, and I understand that. You know, if you think somebody's gonna hurt your kid,
you're gonna be pretty mad pretty fast. And the reason why our opponents keep digging this trope out and using it over and over again is because it's effective.
We've been here before in the seventies in Florida, after a local ordinates granted gay people housing and employment protections, meaning gay teachers couldn't be fired, Anita Bryant, a singer, pageant queen and brand ambassador for the Florida Citrus Commission, organized the Save Our Children campaign, which baselessly smeared LGBTQ people as threats to children. Many cited as the first organized opposition to the gay rights movement.
When I was a kid, there was a named Anita Bryant who was a beauty pageant queen, and she led a campaign called Save Our Children, which led to the repeal of the first LGBTQ plus rights ordinances that have been passed in the seventies and eighties, and we're really seeing that history replay again today. They're over a dozen states now that have some version of a so called don't say gay or trans law. It's not just Florida,
it's many states. And we're seeing all of this rhetoric revived about how LGBTQ plus people groom and recruit and they do it because it works. It's cynical. The fact of the matter is the people who really abuse children are almost exclusively heterosexual men, usually family members. Those are the people who have used children. But that's not the myth that's being put out there.
And I know that LAMBA a lot of the big wins and cases that you all take on do involve youth.
Can you tell me about some of those?
Sure, LAMBA legals been involved fighting for LGBTQ plus students since we were founded fifty years ago in nineteen seventy three. In fact, one of our very first cases in nineteen seventy four, we helped win the right of the University of New Hampshire gay student group to meet on campus, which really led to the proliferation of queer student clubs on college campuses nationwide. In nineteen ninety six, we went to court on behalf of a young man named Jamie Nabusney.
Jamie was a high school student in Ashon, Wisconsin. He was repeatedly beaten up and harassed in school. His family complained to the school, the school did nothing, So finally we took him on and we won the first federal lawsuit holding schools accountable for failing to protect LGBTQ plus
students from bullying and harassment. And in two thousand we represented Anthony Colleen, a student in the Orange County Unified School District in southern California, who was told that he could not have a gay Straight Alliance at GSA in his school, and we won the federal right of students to have GSAs in their schools. So Lamb Beligo has been fighting for young people literally from the start. I'm sorry to say that we are having to do so
again today in twenty twenty three. Unfortunately, as they say, people who know history are doomed to watch idiots repeat it, and we are indeed seeing that history being repeated. We are in court against the Don't Say gay or trans law in Florida. We will be going to court in the other states to challenge that law. We're in court in multiple states trying to defend the rights of trans
youth to get gender affirming care. The fight to ensure the safety and well being of LGBTQ plus youth is unfortunately not over, even though we've been fighting it for five decades.
I mean, I it's one of those things that I wish this I wish this was were not fights that you all had to take up.
I wish that we you know, when you.
Were first starting these fights, when you were younger, Like, did you ever think that in twenty twenty three your work would still be so important and so relevant.
Yes and no. Yes. In that there's a great quote by Kreta Scott King which I really like. She said, freedom is never really won. You earn it and win it in every generation. And I think that's true. I do want to say that things are vastly better than they were the year I was born. In nineteen sixty three, it was illegal to be gay in forty nine states. I don't want to paint a picture of complete gloom and doom. We have made serious progress, but like as King said, you have to earn it and win it
in every generation. Our opponents, I jokingly say, sometimes are like the terminator. They just keep coming, they never stop. And it was Thomas Jefferson who said the price of liberty is eternal vigilance. We have to be vigilant. As we saw with the Dobbs decision in the Supreme Court last year, progress can be reversed very dramatically in this country.
In nineteen seventy three, the same year Land of Legal was founded, the right of people to control their own bodies was granted by the Supreme Court in Roe versus Wade, and our opponents fought for forty nine years and finally got that right taken away last year. So we can never let down our guard because our opponents are determined to impose their values on everyone else. And I really think that's what this whole fight is about. It's bigger
than abortion. It's bigger than gender affirm care, it's bigger than don't say gay. It's about this. We theoretically our country where everyone has the right of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness at lamb to legal. We believe that every person has self determination, that they should decide what to do with their lives, and that so long as they're not hurting anybody else, that's up to them.
Our opponents fundamentally do not believe that. They believe that they have the right to tell other people how to live their lives. You know, there's that great bumperstick, or don't like abortion, don't have one, you know, But our opponents think they have the right to tell other people how to live their lives, what to do with their bodies, whether it be abortion or gender affirming care, what they can say in schools, whether they can perform in drag
or not. They believe they have the right to tell people how to live their lives. And legal we believe that everybody has the right to live their life according to their own values. Like I said, so long as they're not hurting anybody else. And that's the fundamental fight we're in in America right now, is is there really going to be life liberty and the pursuit of happiness for every individual in America, or as sadly has been the case throughout our history, is it only going to
be some people that get it? You know, though some people have traditionally been white, they've been male, they've been Christian, they've been able bodied they've been cisgendered, they've been heterosexual. Those are the people who get to choose how to live their lives, and everybody else is in various ways been restricted throughout American history. We're going to keep fighting until there's no restrictions. That's what we're here to do.
I'm so glad that you put it that way, and I think it can be kind of tough to step back and see the forest for the trees a little bit, because you know, it's not about one piece of legislation
or one book that was banned or what like. It is I believe fundamentally about whether people can live their lives the way that they want to and it but it sometimes it feels like that value is under attack from so many different ways, so many different pressure points, whether it's reproductive care or gender refirming care, or the ability to read what you want to perform in drags.
How do we how do we like stay in the fight with that understanding that even though we might be fighting for, you know, to fight one piece of legislation today, it's really about a broader attack on our rights and equality.
You know, it's interesting the term intersectionality gets thrown around a lot nowadays, but I really think we need to understand that all these fights are truly intersectional. When I was a kid, there used to be an ad campaign for lazed potato chips, and then they used to say that you can't stop with just one bigots don't stop with just one group. They come after BIPOC people, they
come after women, they come after LGBTQ plus people. You know they're they're trying to restrict the rights of many groups of society because they fundamentally think they have the right to tell us how to live our lives. And we need to unite and recognize that all these fights are connected. There's no such thing as a single issue human being. All of us are complex people with multiple identities, and we need to build a movement that recognizes that
all these issues are connected. And we need to stand locked arm in arm to prevent this assault, which is really fundamentally about taking away people's rights to live their lives as they see fit.
Let's take a quick break.
At our back.
Times are tough, but it's not without wins, and it's not without hope. And the forces organizing against justice and equality to forget that they want us to feel like there is no reason for hope hopelessness as a kind of disinformation campaign. Something you mentioned earlier that I want to go back to that I think is really important is that you know, when you're talking about attacks on marginalized communities, oftentimes the stories of our.
Communities are very doom and gloom.
And I completely understand why that is, because we are facing like, very real attacks.
But it's not all bad.
And I know that LAMB Illegal has had some recent wins lately. Can you tell me about those?
Sure? Uh, First of all, if you look at where we started with LAMB Legal fifty years ago. When we were found in nineteen seventy three, being gay was illegal in forty three states. Cross dressing was as they called it back then, was illegal, So it was literally illegal for trans people to express their gender. Homosexuality was a mental illness for which you could be put in an institution against your will. And we fought and we fought
and we fought. It took us thirty years, but we got the laws that criminalized same sex relationships struck down at the Supreme Court in two thousand and three in Lawrens versus Texas. We fought for over twenty years, and we run the right of same sex couples to marry in twenty fifteen at the Supreme Court in Obergefell versus Hodges. We fought for twenty years and we won the right of people to be protected from being fired from their job based on their sexual orientation or their gender identity
at the Supreme Court in twenty twenty. We have made enormous progress and we're still winning. You know, I know this is a very dark time. Nearly six hundred anti LGBTQ plus bills were proposed this year and in forty seven different states. The case you're curious, the only states that didn't consider such a bill this year were Illinois, New York, and Delaware. There was one in every other
state in the country. And I'll tell you a very specific story which I'm very excited about, and this is about a middle school girl in West Virginia named Becky Pepper Jackson. Becky was in sixth grade when the state of West Virginia banned young trans people from participating in school sports. So we went to court. We represented Becky, and we won at the district court, and Becky got
to be on their middle school cross country team. Then the state appealed to the Circuit Court, and we went to the circuit court and we won again, and Becky got to be on her middle school cross country team again. And then they appealed to the Supreme Court in April of this year, and we went to the Supreme Court and the justices voted with US seven to two. And Becky's now in eighth grade and she's on the cross
country team. So I know we right now, it's easy to feel defeated, but it's also important to recognize we're still winning. Are we going to win every fight? Absolutely not. That's not how social justice has won. You win some, you lose some. But I am confident in the inn We're going to win this fight. And the reason I'm confident is I believe most Americans agree with us. Most Americans don't want somebody else to tell them how to live their life. And if we understand that, that's what
our opponents are trying to do. They're trying to win the right to impose their belief system on people they don't like and they don't agree with. I think most Americans are going to say, Nope, I'm not down for that.
Yeah, I wonder.
I mean, I completely agree, I'm vigorously nodding in my head.
But one of the things I wonder is I have a.
Theory that the other side they know that what they're proposing is unpopular. They know that it is wildly out of sack with what most Americans want. I think that's why they have to lie. They have to lie about trans youth, they have to lie about gender reforming care. If they were confident that people were on their side, they would not have to misrepresent what their side is. And so to me, that seems to suggest that, like
they know what they're selling, people aren't really buying. Do you ever have that sense?
Yeah, I think what they're doing is they're taking advantage of people's ignorance on the issues. And let me be very specific, over seventy percent of Americans think they've never met a trans person. They probably have, they just didn't know. But when you have over seventy percent of the people who literally don't know a trans person, it's easy to spread lies and misinformation. I think our other side is very clever and very strategic. They pick things, they pick
the most vulnerable point, and they go after that. Like let's take another example critical race theory. The vast majority of Americans have absolutely no idea what critical race theory is, but they've managed to make it into this bogey man that's so evil and so bad. So what they do is they take advantage of people's ignorance. And I know, say ignorance as a pejorative, you could say in a different way, which is lack of familiar people. I think
most Americans. I have an interesting conversation with an elderly friend of mine recently and she said, you know, I don't understand why people say black lives matter. Don't all lives matter? And I said, well, Marcia, if you look at American history, throughout American history, black lives have mattered less. We were comfortable enslaving black people, we were comfortable segregating
black people, we were comfortable lynching black people. So you need to say specifically that black lives matter, because throughout American history they've been treated like they don't matter. And she was like, I never thought of it that way. That makes perfect sense. And we have a Black Lives Matter vigil in my town every Sunday at two o'clock. She now comes to the visual this seventy five year old that'sis gender heterosexual, white woman comes to the visual
every Sunday now because she gets it now. So I think one of the things we need to recommit ourselves to do as move is to educate people. I think there is a hardcore segment of American society that is very bigoted and that will never change its mind. But I think there's a much larger segment that is unfamiliar and ignorant of the issues, and that if we take the time to educate them, and we take the time to explain how what our opponents are doing is really
against the fundamental principle of self determination. Nobody likes being told how they can live their life, and I think the vast majority of Americans can end up siding with us.
More.
After a quick break, let's get right back into it. I agree with Kevin that most Americans would probably agree that nobody should be told how to live their lives. But at in a media and digital ecosystem that is invested in turning up the temperature on these conversations and amplifying and incentivizing the worst actors, and it certainly doesn't always feel that way. That's such a positive, like forward looking,
affirming perspective. And I do think this is why the other side, Like, I think that they are really good at exploiting the people who maybe just don't know a lot about it and don't spend a lot of time thinking about it, and then turning the temperature up on the conversation, you know, pushing at those tension points and those fractures and those things that they know we're going to get people kind of like riled up or to have a big reaction when like, it's just we don't
really I don't think that we have a it's difficult to have these conversations when so often they are happening along these like existing tension points and pressure points that really inflame the conversation.
Well, that's their whole strategy. Their strategy is to divide and conquer and to take advantage of things where people feel vulnerable and confused and unaware. And I will make this prediction, particularly on trans issues, what they're doing is going to backfire. And the reason it's going to backfire is I wrote a textbook on LGBTQ plus history thirty years ago for high school students, and I said, there's two laws of LGBTQ plus history. Number one, the more
visible we are, the more we get attacked. And number two, the more we are attacked, the more people come out and fight back. As America, as more and more trans people are coming out and parents of trans people are speaking up and family of trans people are speaking up, more and more Americans are coming to know trans people,
and the end, that's why we're going to win. Because the number one most effective way to reduce bigotry towards LGBTQ plus people has been shown over and over and over again is if you actually know an LGBTQ plus person personally. And the number of people who say they don't know a trans person is going to keep dropping.
And the more people realize that trans people are their neighbors and their family members and their coworkers and our human beings like everyone else, these attacks will resonate less and less and less. So what I'm thinking right now is we just need to hold the line. We need to hold the line because the next generation is going to be very different. The Gallop Organization found last year that one in five Generation Z members identifies as LGBTQ plus.
One in five. This generation is not going to have this nonsense. So it's up to folks in my generation to hold the line basically until the next generation comes into the rescue. And I really believe that's what's going to happen. So I think what they're doing short term may be very effective. I mean, let's be honest, they've passed laws in over twenty states this year. It's been bad LAMBA legals role is the community's last line of defense. We can't stop them from passing these laws in places
like North Carolina where I grew up. We don't have the votes, but we can get them struck down in court, and that's what we do every day. And if we can hold the line until the next generation assumes the leadership of this country, I think we're going to win.
How do you see all of these issues playing out in the upcoming election?
Oh boy?
Well.
I talk to a lot of folks who are younger or for a variety of reasons, have been disenfranchised throughout history, and they say, my vote doesn't matter. And I'll say to them, you know what, the best evidence is that your vote matters. The Republicans are trying to take it away from you. If your vote didn't matter, why would they be trying so hard to stop you from voting?
So I absolutely think because remember, if you add up the so called minorities in America, BIPOC folks, women, LGBTQ plus people, and obviously there's people who are all of those things. We're the majority. So we have to educate and mobilize the people who agree with us and get them out to vote. And if we do that, we're going to win.
But if you had a crystal ball and you're looking into the future, what would you like for the future to be like for our communities? What would you like to see for our communities ten years down the line, twenty years down the line.
Oh boy. First, of all, communities is very complicated. There's many, many, many different communities, so that's a very complicated question. But I guess my dream. I'll speak specifically about LGBTQ plus people. I would like to dream that someday a same SIS couple could walk down the street in any town in any state anywhere in America and not even think about whether or not they're safe. They don't think about it.
I would like to see, in fact, the whole notion of coming out go away, because I would like to live in a world in which people just grow up and they are who they are, and you don't need to come out as trans or come out as gay, because from day one, you're free to be who you want to be, and nobody thinks it's odd if you are LGBTQ plus that's just well, that's just who you are.
That would be the ultimate side of victory to me is if the notion of coming out went away because people were just free to be who they authentically were from day one and they didn't need to come out at some point in their life.
That's so beautiful, Like, what a beautiful vision for the future. I really like.
That time when things can feel so understandably heavy and tough, leaning into joy can be a form of resistance. Our opponents want us trained and defeated, so abundance, love, happiness, and joy can be defiant. We talked about how these fights are long and how it's you know, there's so many different attacks out there. But something that I like about Lambda is that you all do a great job
of connecting to joy and resilience and abundance. Right like you party, you just had your big fifty year celebration. How do you stay connected to that joy and that abundance in these fights?
Oh gosh, that's a great question.
For me.
My big hero was Congressman John Lewis, and Congressman John Lewis went through a lot. He literally had his skull fractures on the Edmund Pettis Bridge and Selma in the nineteen sixties marching for voting rights. But I never ever ever saw Congressman Lewis depressed because of two reasons. I asked them this once. I said, how are you always so cheerful? And he said, because, Kevin, I believe in the beloved community, and that's what we're working for, a
community where we each love each other. And I'll never forget him saying that to me. And I think that, in the end is what we need to realize. What our opponents would like to do is to convince us that we can't make a difference, is to convince us that the world cannot change, is to convince us that this kind of crap is inevitable. They're lying to us, we can change the world, and we can have fun while we're doing it. So don't let them take away
your joy. Don't let them take away your hope. Don't let them take away your sense of power, because if they succeed in doing that, things will indeed never change. So I'm not going to give them the satisfaction. I'm not doing it. I am going to dance and I'm going to tell jokes and I'm going to have fun while I'm fighting for justice, and I urge you all do the same.
I know folks are fired up, like I'm on the fridship tears listening to you talk about this. For folks who want to get involved, what should they be doing? Where can they go to find out more?
Well, okay, let me say give two answer to that. First of all, obviously, if you want to learn about LAMBDA Legal, go to lambdillegal dot org. But I want to remind people, no matter who you are in the world, you have four assets your voice, your vote, your time, and your money. And what I mean by that is,
first of all, your voice. When I worked in Washington, I learned that there's an intern in every congressional office who tallies up how many calls they got that day and what they were about, and they report it to the congress person. Speak up, call your congress person, March. Use your voice. Secondly, vote vote in every election. Did you know that the average school board election turnout is
only fifteen percent. That means that if you can get eight percent of the voters in your community to vote for you, because that's a majority of fifteen percent, or approximately one out of every thirteen people, you get to run the schools in your community. So vote every time, not just in the presidentials. Your time. I know a lot of people work in multiple jobs. They may not have a lot of time. But whatever time you have, get involved. Volunteer your time, get involved with your local
community center or a local political organization. And then, finally, if you're lucky enough to have a few extra dollars, remember that over seventy percent of charitable giving in this country comes from individuals, people like you and me. People think corporations and foundations pay for charity. That's bs average people pay for charity in this country. So if you can spare a few dollars, give it to an organization you really believe in. So use your voice, your vote,
your time, and your money. And we'd love to welcome you to the Land of Legal Family. If you want to go to Landollegal dot org.
I like how you put that, because somebody might not have a lot of money, but they might have a big platform. They might not have a lot of time, but they can vote. Like you can always find your way to help and your way to feel like you're really leaning into the fight.
Thank you. I really believe that if we all do what we can do, we're going to be okay. And everybody can do something. There's a saying in the Talmud, the Jewish holy book, that you are not responsible for saving the world, but neither are you exempt from doing your part to do so. So no one of us. I don't believe in the so called great nand theory of history where like there's like a big white savior who rides to the rescue. That's bs. That's not how
change happens. Change happens because everyday people stand up and say I'm not going to do this anymore. No, And if we all do our part, and some may be voting, some may be giving money, some may be volunteering their time, some may be marching, but figure out what your part is. When Trump got elected, people ask me what should I do? What should I do? I said, what are you good at? If you're an artist, make great art. If you're rich,
write a check. Whatever you've got, use it. And we've all got different gifts, and we've all got different talents. And if we just use our own unique gifts together collectively as a movement, we will win this.
I believe that we will win.
Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer. I'm your host,
Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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