LulaRoe used social media to prey on vulnerable women

the country. Now, I don't think I need to tell you that this turned out to be kind of a huge scam. The Washington State Attorney General filed a class action lawsuit against Lularow, calling them a pyramid scheme, and in February of this year, lu La Row agreed to pay four point seventy four million dollars to settle. And

it kind of also seems like a cult. From gas lighting motivational seminars to Lula Row's founder Deane, pressuring women to travel to Mexico for weight loss surgery to maintain a picture perfect presence, all the service of selling the lie that lu La Row was a ticket to working

moms being able to live happy, fulfilled and balanced lives. Now, what's so interesting about Lularo is the women that got involved in it, and it's clear the company praised on a type educated, ambitious moms, and it's pretty clear why there just isn't a lot of societal support for moms who want to do wage earning work in America. We don't have paid leave, we don't have access to affordable childcare solutions for parents who work. That creates this real

vulnerability for women that can be deeply exploited. Now, if you've seen the documentary, which I definitely recommend you check out, that you probably already know Reberta Blevins, the hilariously straightforward former Lula ro retailer turned anti MLM advocate. Roberta once had seventy five Lularo retailers working under her and when she left the company, her goal was to get at

least seventy people to leave. And now, on our podcast Life After MLM, Roberta helped so many more see the ways that multi level marketing companies like Lularo use tools like social media to pray on women and who were already vulnerable. So I binged watched Lula La Lula Row documentary on Amazon Prime. I watched it. It seemed like it went by in like twenty minutes, even though it was four episodes. Um, my first question is the reaction

has been so huge. You know, I was reading your piece and your your the piece and variety that quotes you. What is your response to seeing this huge reaction to the film Lula Rich? Well, okay, so I was on the phone of Lache last night and we were talking about this exact thing, and she's like, girl, I knew it would be number one eventually, and I said, right, but I just didn't know what happened so fast. So that's sort of how I feel about it, Like this

has been the last four years of my life. They don't really go into it in the documentary, but from the day I left Lula Ro, I started speaking out against them, I started exposing them. I've been probably public enemy number one for the past four years, I said the Vice documentary. I talked to Bloomberg. I've helped with a lot of the you know sources say I'm a lot of those sources. Um, I have a lot of sources. I shared a lot of things, I've done a lot

of stuff. So for me, like I sort of kind of like expected it on in my small realm because I have been talking about this and I have been like promoting it in like the anti MLM communities and like that small niche um. But like, like I said, like I didn't expect it to sort of seep out of our community quite so quickly. Um, And I'm just I'm really excited because I just think people need to hear the story and it's this is just literally like the tip of iceberg and just a little bit of

a scratch, Like there's so much more stuff. There was so much more stuff in this than there was advice, and there's so much more stuff that hasn't been uncovered yet that I'm just really excited to see what other creators and and people discover and create from this moment forward totally, So like what are some of the things that you're thinking, Like, Oh, if they were to do a part too, like and they got to mention this,

I wish they mentioned that. Like, for instance, I was watching this really dark YouTube video that went in the detail about the weight loss surgeries that that Danne was like propped in folks to get and I was like, Wow, they didn't really get into like how seedy and dark that is, Like, what are some of the stuff that you're like, oh, they do a part two, they got to include this, you know. That was one of the things, like there was not a lot of stuff about the

weight loss surgery. I think it was like glazed over, which I get. You know, Um, there there's a lot there. Um. Danne has taken a lot of people down there. On their website on Facebook, their Facebook page of this place. There are so many before and after photos of women in Lulu Ro, Like it's very obvious where they're coming from. There's sometimes there's Lulu Ro business signs are like in the photos too, and they're wearing the clothes and so

it's very obvious. And Danne has admitted to taking um children as young as thirteen down there to get weight loss. Yeah, so that's a lot of stuff that like just was not included. But I understand, like I don't know, this thing literally could have been to ten episodes, but I'm not even joking it event and episodes, and I still probably would be sitting here going and then forgot to add this too. Um. There was one of the things

that bothered me. And I was already out when this happened, But there was a lot of times, and we see it with influencers to a lot of times, when you have a lot of power and a lot of influence in a company or on a platform, you can get away from murder. Not technically like actually murder, um, but you can get away with a lot of things. And that was happening a lot and running rampant and Lulu

Ro and we thought that that wasn't really fair. People were being terminated for like using the wrong fonts and the wrong colors. And then somebody could go on Alive and um basically mock someone with special needs and Lulu Ro would side with them and say, well they use lulu Ro as there the way they feed their family. And they said they were sorry, so we're not going

to terminate them. Um. There was somebody who was like telling a deaf person they should just turn it up if she can't hear them, and just really just obnoxious, obnoxious stuff that made me wonder, like can do you know people can see you? Like you know this is like live in public, Like people can see you do this? Why are you doing this? And again Lula would would

always side with them. There was a huge thing with the national down syndrome Society for the National Down sydom Society said, Um, you either terminate this couple that marked special needs or will terminate our our our partnership, will terminate our partnership with you, and um Lulu Ro said, like I said, well, he already apologized and and you know, he made them so much money. They sold hundreds of

thousands of dollars for the stuff. They made them so much money, and Lulu Re sided with them, and the National Down Syndrooms, the National Down Syndrome Society put out a statement saying that they were entering ending their partnership with Lulu Ro. It's all on like you can find

all of this online. Um, they were ending their partnership with lule Ro because they didn't feel that Lulu Rou was really willing to accept that this was bad and that they were gonna they were gonna cide with somebody that had done bad things and it was against everything that they were going because the person that he mocked had Down syndrome and or he was mocking special needs and then he used someone with Down syndrome as a

prop in his apology. Yeah it's great, Yeah, that's great. So, um, I know it's just like so Lularu sided with our um. Lula sided with this couple, and the National Down Society said we're gonna end our partnership and this beautiful statement UM.

And then about an hour later, Lulure came out with their statement, which was pretty much the exact opposite, and they said that the reason that Luluro had decided to end the partnership with the National Down Syndrom Society that right, was that Lulauro felt that the National Down Syndroom Society's UM mission was too narrow because they only wanted to help people with Down syndrome and Luluo wanted to help everyone. And I feel like that's the first like example of

like an all lives mattered any think right. And I remember here like like I was like, oh my god, like they were the first ones. Oh man, I mean that story really does crystallize how good they are at twisting the truth to make themselves look like they're the more like noble or like the people who were like

doing right like in that documentary. I was like, they must have taken hours of like pr coaching too, the way they twist words and twist stories where it's like, oh, actually I just wanted to cut these people in because it was such a good deal. Like blah blah blah, Like how they're able to twist everything so that they're so virtuous. I really I don't want to give them props for that. It's so amazing. I mean, I will

say I was sitting there watching the documentary. Obviously I was watching it, and um there was I mean, I lived it, so there was really nothing shocking to me. The only shocking thing that I really experienced, Um, we're hearing the deposition, so I had read the depositions. I

was a part of that lawsuit. They also they don't bring that up either, but I was a witness against Lularo in the Washington Pyramids team lawsuit and I helped with the investigation with the team incredible Team Bomb and his team are fantastic, really really one of the coolest experiences.

And it was the very first time that their parents, their anti pyramid scheme law had ever been tried, and it was a row and it was like a history making case and they had it on the books for like ten plus years, and it was the first time that they had ever been tried. So it's really really cool. Um, I'm really proud of that. And you know, they settled in February for four point seven five million. Uh, the point seven five went to pay for the three year investigation,

so Washington took a hit on that. Um, they all basically just did it at cost. And then that the four million went into a restitution fund and checks went out I think in August, So everybody should have their

checks right now. The most shocking thing to me in this documentary because I had read the depositions, because I had you know, I know what they had said, but I had never heard the tone in which it was said, and so I knew that Dan was like, oh she really got two like that sad, but I thought she was saying I thought she was saying it in like

a oh, that's like hearing it. I was like oh, and then hearing other the way that she said others, it was just so cold and knowing her and being around her and having conversations with her like I never met that person. I saw the person that person on the videos, but I never saw like calculated cold and so that to me, just the way that Dan answered questions was literally the most shocking thing for me. Yeah, it was it was almost hard to watch. Also, the

level to it. She really is like, oh, I don't recall, I don't know, like I don't know what that means. It's like, Wow, for somebody who was running this like business, you really don't know any of the specifics what went on interesting No. One thing that really shocked me about Lula Rich were the scenes of Lula Rose founders being deposed in court. Basically, they really use the old I

don't recall trick to avoid incriminating themselves. It turns out selective amnesia to avoid accountability is a big part of the brand. That even includes their founders kind of pretending to not know Jordan Brady, their own family member, and a lu La Ro higher up who was caught on camera saying the company was trying to distance itself from being a pyramid scheme. Yeah. One of the one of

the things that we had to prove. This so ridiculous, but one of the things that that we were tasked to prove in the pyramid scheme lawsuit was that Jordan Brady actually worked at Lula Row because he had said, and you know, you see that he had said that we need to get away from being a pyramid scheme, and so they wanted to distance themselves from him as much as possible. He is like Danne's youngest biological son, and they were like, who's Jordan's and he was good,

I'm sorry, did he work here? I don't recall um? And so some of the evidence that I sent over were like emails between Jordan and I about me getting on boarded and having questions about things, and I was like, and then a screenshot of him and I with my old upline doing a webinar, like an official Lula ro Lula famous webinaru, and he and I are in that photo, and I said, here is this the Jordan we're saying

doesn't doesn't work here? So yeah, you know, because everybody else's fault La Lula Row always, you know, I have to ask, like I made one podcast about Lularo and MLMs years ago, and I've covered so many different things, like I've covered Nazis and like some of the worst people on the Internet. But the time that I talked negatively about lu La Row, I don't think I've ever gotten more hate correspondents, more emails, and I know that,

you you know, people come after you as well. Like, do you ever get scared or what is it like to really be trying to hold folks accountable and just tell the truth of what you've experienced and what you saw and know that there's going to be an army of people who are very, very invested in proving you wrong. Like what is that? Like, I mean, I have the receipts, so I'm not super worried. You know, it's really funny. I've seen so many things said about me that are

so unbelievably not even close to being true. Um, I was accused of running a hate fueled hate cult. That was fun. I know, It's like, okay, all right, that's me. Yeah, I hate cult. I was like, I hate cult. Um. Someone on my TikTok went after me the other night, um, saying that I was a liar and then I'm still a hun and then I'm still scamming people, um, and that I'm just mad. She said, she's just mad that someone exposed this scam and her sixty dollar checks dried up.

And I said, one, I've never had a sixty check, and too, I was the one that left and exposed it. Like it's like that that was me, the one you're saying exposed it, that's me. How can it be the same person. So it's just like ridiculous things. People don't want to listen to the truth. People don't want She was telling my my my timeline was all over the place. I'm like, okay, She's like, I'm super anti MLM and your timeline is super sussed. And my followers were like,

you're clearly not anti ammale. That's one that has been speaking out for four years. She has another movie. There's there's no way you don't know who she is if you're actually super anti EMLEM like you claim it was a brand new account. Was one person following, like, no pictures, no anything. I mean, it's a hunt. It's a hun.

It's a hun getting on TikTok on my account, hoping to convince new people that don't know me, don't follow me, don't know my story, don't know my history, that I'm suspicious and that what I say in the documentary is most likely lies and that people should investigate me. And I was like, all you have to do is google

my name, like literally everything is there. Literally, I don't I don't hide any of the stuff that I've uncovered and I don't just uncover Lulu Roy uncover MLM's like and so it's funny to me, I get all kinds of hate from like other MLM. So I'm talking about Black Oxygen Organics. I gotta hate email the other day that said we're coming for you. You should have never spoke about BOO And I was like, all right, bring it.

It's just weird stuff, you know, Like they went to all of the the review sites Amazon, Rotten Tomatoes and IMDb and they all mass reported and like mass down voted and and gave him one star reviews and and just said like how ridiculous it is. And I mean it's not normal, Like it's not you know, you watch Going Clear, or you watch Scion till like Aftermath, or you listen to a little Bit Culty and you listen to me. You listen to these podcasts and these these

these could shows. There's no other industry or experience that you will experience this sort of hatred fair gaming like bullying and attacking except for colts. Right, it feels like you have to know when someone is responding that way that they're they're still in and the fact that you are telling the truth about what I have committed their lives too, probably is like very threatening to them and their whole sense of self. Absolutely absolutely, and I get it.

I was there. I'm sure if you go back five six years you can find posts on lutle Row. I mean, I'm blocked from it now, so I would never be able to see but of me saying little Row changed my life. It's the most amazing company. And these people are just entertainters, like I'm sure there's at least one of those somewhere, you know. But I was in occult and I was brainwashed like most of us. Um and you know, you when you see it, you can't unsee it.

Let's say a quick break and are back. I've noticed on Instagram and TikTok since the documentary coming out, so many other women, you know, looking back at their image their pictures and being like, I can't believe the things I used to say, Like it feels like it must it must be incredibly cathartic for these women to speak up about their experiences and just get it off their chats and like all the things they did to try

to make this this gammy call work for them. Absolutely, so I always say on my podcast when I talked to I have a survivor's podcast called Life After MLM, and I talked to survivors from all different emilems, not just little Round. There are a lot of lutle road stories on there, obviously, but um, you know, I have

the survivor's podcast. I talked to people from Amway, I talked to people from mary Kay, I talked to people from everywhere, herbal life, everywhere, right, And nothing in these stories really changes except for like shocking details and the names. Pretty much it's the same exact story of like being in an MLM, being like what is going on? Figuring it out, and like escaping. I guess people just like

being like left financially devastated. When I talk to these people on the podcast, we have these conversations I don't want to call them interviews because they're very casual, um, And we interrupt each other and we laugh and we make jokes and sometimes they're you know, inappropriate for the time. We're talking about serious things, and we pop in with something because if you don't laugh, you cry. Um. And

it's incredibly cathartic to to talk to victims. And I get so many email messages from people that are like I heard this episode, I wasn't Mary Kay. Thank you so much to Laura for speaking about it. I felt so connected to her. I felt so validated by her truth. She explained something that happened to me that no one has ever said, Oh, that happens, And this random person that you talked to validated me. And I'm not crazy,

Like there's proof that I'm not crazy. I was gas lit in this company and they told me all these things.

And I'm listening to you talk to these women and sometimes people and I have men on there too, and sometimes people will say something and I'll stop them and I'll say, well, that's a cult tactic that you just described, like it's not your fault, Like that's a colt tactic what you're talking about, And this is why that works, and this is how it fits in the pyramid, and this is why they will use it, and this is how it's all working together like a bunch of constant machine.

And I think a lot of people go, oh my god, oh my god, and it clicks right, and they don't. It doesn't click. And so I think what's happening right now, like you said, is there's all these people that watched a little rich they were like, oh my god, I was a part of this company. It's a total garbage dump, trash sheep. Let's watch this movie and they're thinking popcorn time and by third episode there in tears and they're going,

oh my god, I can't believe I was apart. I didn't know it when so deep, I didn't realize I heard about this, but I heard it was a rumor. I thought this was happening, but I never had proof. And here's all the proof of everything you experienced, everything you were told, told by people who were successful, told by people who did see that there was a problem and did speak out. All of us that are in that documentary have been speaking out for a long time.

I mean not all of us. There's a couple of movies in there I've never seen before, but the majority of the people in there, I've been speaking out and and helping investigate LUUOE for a really long time. And so I love that there are complete strangers that I've never met hearing this message, watching this film. Finding the catharsis that they've never had the validation that they never got when they were gasolate in this cold. Finally, years after are watching this film and going bully, sh it,

it's not me, and they are there. I call it Lula cringe. I posted all the time Lula cringe, and you share your Lula cringe, right, and you're like, look at what I'm wearing. There's a photo of men, like, look at me standing by this giant lollipop. What the hell am I wedding? This was the worst of it, you guys. I left like a month later. What is going on? And so we think a lot of times.

And then it's really funny because former survivors and victims will come in and they'll make jokes, you know, and I go, I know that they know because they're making an inside joke that it's a dog whistle for us, right, Like they say something and I go, oh my god, you get it girl, and we're laughing and we're having a good time and we're saying, I can't believe I did this. I'm so stupid, and I say, hey, you're not alone. Okay, you're not alone. There was ninety thousand

of us. I mean, I don't know how many either actually was that those numbers have always been inflated and incorrect, and I never knew the actual number ever, not even once. But you know, if we say there were ninety thousand of us, then there's there's a lot more victims out there that probably still think it's them and are watching Lula Rich and going, oh my god, it wasn't me. So I love it. I love seeing everybody's Lula cringe.

I love seeing everybody's stories. I love jumping in the comments and saying yes, I remember this, thank you, because it not only validates them, it validates me too. I have so many haters that are telling me that I'm just bitter. I mean d M did literally did alive today and said not to watch, you know, not to bother with Lulu ro and Lulu or not to bother with lul Rich because it's just the story of four

consultants who couldn't make im work. Out of hundreds, you know, out of hundreds and thousands, it's just four of us. And I was like, are you for real now, it's just the four of us, just four of us. Okay, they made a movie because there's just four of us. Right. There was a big lawsuit because it was just four people. There's a billion dollar laws because there's just four of us.

Um it's insane. I have four separate interviews on my podcast with four separate LULARO consultants, so there's at least

eight of us. I mean. That's something that I think the documentary really does a nice job of touching on is that when women started going to the defector Facebook groups and sharing their stories and getting that validation that like this the power of of hearing that you're not alone, hearing that you're not crazy, like after you've been legit no ship gasolate for so long, Like going back and watching some of those motivational speaker style conferences, I was like,

this is just gas fighting, Like this is like brainwashing, indoctrination. The power are of hearing someone say no, you're right, even for little things of like yeah, you're right. My leggings did smell like a dead part. You're right, they did arrive wet, like things like things that they have been told from you know, the lu La Row higher ups that are not happening right, Like the power of that validation someone saying no, trust what you see with your own eyes, what you feel in your gut, like

you're you're you know you're right. You know your experience, like, that's so powerful, you know. I even got some validation today. I don't know if it was I think it was on Instagram. Somebody commented on one of my posts on Instagram and said, I used to work at lular Row. The reason that you're legging smelled so bad is because when they were outside and those big metal crates are called gay lords. Without these big metal gaylords out in the middle of this parking lot for months on end

under blue tarts. They said, well, they had like a team because what would happen is rats and possums would sleep in them, and sometimes they get stuck and die, and so they'd have to go and fish out the dead rats and possums, and then they would throw away the garment that was touching it, but none of the

existing garments around it. He's like, so that might have been or she I don't remember it was a user name I didn't check up, but that they were like, that might be why that your leggings smelled like dead rats. And I was like, oh my god, I've literally called them dead rat leggings before. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? And I was literally dead rats in then I called that ship like three years ago. Well, I mean, listen, you know a dead rat when you

smell one. I live in the country, y'all, I know a dead rat. Smell one. More. After a quick break, let's get right back into it. There just is not a ton of societal support for moms in America. And it someone comes along and tells a mom that she can make good money, making her own schedule, and still be able to be a present figure in the lives of her family and kids, it's really not surprising that so many of them would jump on that opportunity, even

if it seems too good to be true. The vulnerability baked into the experience of being a mom leaves women open to being preyed on by MLMs. I have my own thoughts about why smart, ambitious, educated women got involved with and not just LULARO, but like m l m S and l m l ms in general. I think that, you know, it's very enticing to be told that you can be there for your kids if you're a mom, make good money, you know, really be a present figure

in your parents and your kid's life. We just don't live in a place that really has a lot of options for a lot for like moms if you're trying to work and raise your kids. And so I think that my senses is that these companies prey on women and a lot of times the moms who don't really

have a lot of options. And I just wonder, like, what are your thoughts on why so many women get mixed up in m l M s um So, I think the main component to getting lured in, like Robert says, I love that quote in the movie Robertson Robert is fantastic. If you guys don't know who Robert Fitzpatrick is, by his book Ponsionomics, it is amazing if you are anti MLM or want to be. It is the complete like history of m limit is one of the best books

I've ever read, which is just fascinating. Um. But the way that people get blured in, because that's what it is, right, Nobody really thinks like this is amazing, like I need to do this. It's always like, girl, it would be so good at that, and you're just like, and it really is a loover. It really is a lure. Um. The number one thing is vulnerability. The number one thing. Uh, and the more vulnerabilities you have, the more likely you

will get sucked in. Um. You know, people have hardships, and they think, if I could just win the lotto, if I could just make an extra hundred dollars a week, if I could just like get some money, or like get like a really good deal or like something like, it could change everything. If I could just go on a game show and win ten thousand dollars, can pay all my bills, I'd be back in the green and

it wouldn't be a problem. Because so there's this whole like, if I could just do this, if I could just be that person to just beat all the odds, Right, I'm gonna beat all the odds. It's gonna be me. I believe in myself. These boss bibs believe in me too. They're telling me how great I am. I know I'm great. It wasn't feeling how great I'm but now I'm really feeling how great because these women are reinforcing what a rock star I'm gonna be. And I already believe I'm

a rock star. And now someone I don't even know susan in me, Oh my god, it must be true. M So you're already vulnerable and what they're promising you ultimately, because you hear it all the time. It's not about the product. It's about the opportunity. It's not about the shampoo. It's about the sisterhood. It's not about the weight loss, it's about the accountability. It's not about the product. It's about the opportunity. Right, It's just it. It doesn't matter

because what they're truly selling you is a dream. They're selling you on the opportunity to possibly, maybe, if you're lucky enough, have the ability to possibly get to the top of the pyramid and all of your your dreams will come true. So dream big. Keep that dopamine rushing through your veins, because as long as you're continually like basically lying to yourself and living this fakett, you make it lifestyle where the dopamines just coming in. You're like,

it feels so good. I'm just gonna keep doing this because it seems to be working. It's a dream. It doesn't exist, Robert says it. If you were to invite five friends and tell them to invite five friends after thirteen levels, you exceed the population of Earth. It's not possible. Seven percent of people across the board losing MLM. So what are we actually selling here? It's a farce, It's a dream. It's the possibility that you might maybe one day get the ability to kind of off like maybe

maybe make it if you work really hard. But if you don't work really hard, that's on you. If you don't make it, it's because you just work cut out for this mm hmm. And I can't help but I know they touch on this in the film, but I can't help but see the ways that like our sort

of social media landscape really feeds that. Like I you've mentioned in the film that they wanted you to take pictures of yourself making a big, messy breakfast with your kids, or like, you know, they wanted people to have these very curated, picture perfect Instagram feeds and hashtag everything because

lu La Row. You know, I wonder what role do you think that things like Instagram and Facebook and Facebook Live, Like, what role do even that played and in making lu La Row sort of like what it was, It was instrumental, absolutely absolutely instrumental. Before Luluro i was, I had been a professional blogger um and I had a decent little following. It's all defunct now, but I had a decent little following, and so I understood algorithms. I understood how to grow

on social media authentically. I knew how to brand myself. Um. And when they heard that I knew how to do that stuff, They're like, oh my god, you have to teach the class, like you're a social media a queen, Like you're so amazing, Like you have to teach all of us how to do that. And so it was a lot of like me trying to you it's it's I don't even know if you could teach it. To be perfectly honest, some of it is just like just inherent.

I would say you have to have pretty pictures, and then someone's like, could you look at my feet and tell me what you think? And I'm just like what did you not even listen to what I said? Um? So you know, I really didn't like as I was teaching people how to grow authentically, uh, and to create you know, authentic curated posts about your life, nothing over the top and ridiculous, but real, um, like a normal

social media influence overdo um. It was like you should be talking more about little Row and like, oh, you went to Disneyland. Did you put because of Little Row? I'm like, well, I mean, isn't because well, you got to go because you're not working because of Little Row and you had money to buy churros because of And I was like, what isn't I mean we here in the documentary that because of Little Row isn't actually even a hashtag at all. Indiana doesn't even know it, doesn't

even know what it means. She's never seen it before, right, she's never seen it before. I will tell you, though, there's another hashtag they didn't mention that Dane will probably also deny knowing about. And that's the hashtag because of Dan. I'm sure she loved that one, yeah, but has never seen it. Right. Anytime Deanne had a bad day and like social media people were being mean to her, we had to make posts of appreciation for Dan and tag it because of Dane. Wow, I mean that's a cult.

That's like, that's could like absolutely it's a cult. Yeah. I mean I figured out I was on a cold because I was watching Leo Romani's Scientology after Math and I was sitting there and I burst into tears. And my husband at the time, we are we are divorced, but it's not because of little row Um. He was like, are you okay? And I was like, oh my god, there I goll like I just knew. I just knew. I just knew. God, I'm some most weird, but I

just I just knew. I saw like the Scientology survivors, and they were saying things, and I had an example for everything, like a Lulu row example for everything they were saying. I was like, that happened to me in this way, and it was just I was like, oh my god, I'm in a colt. I mean, so smart and educated, vulnerable. I joined a cult. It was so easy. It was the easiest thing I've ever done. Joining that could really exactly joining at least not maintaining, but joined

it right. I think if exactly what you said, vulnerability precarity like scarcely like that will dry otherwise, you know, like reasonable, rational, intelligent people to do things that like one by you know, incrementially they're like wait a minute, like what am I actually doing here? Like we're like, how did I found myself so deep into this um? And I think you're exactly right, But it's it's not it's luring. It's luring them in. You know, first you

think it's so lifestyle, fake it till you make it. Yeah, you look at those posts on social media. You look at like actual influencers, right, and they post things and I think there's this this need. And another reason why social media fueled this so much was you look at actual influencers and you go, they're just sharing like pictures of like PEPSI like they're making all this money, Like I can do that, and it's coming from someone that

did it. It's way more than that. But um, you know, it's tough, and people think they can buy this kit in a box and become a social media influencer who sells shakes on social media and they're using you know, they're they're basically just free advertising for these MLMs, and they're they're selling product that nobody really wants. And you know, a couple of friends will help you out. But for the most part, the statistic for MLM sales is n

of MLM stuff stays within the MLM. It's just MLM hunts shopping from mL M hunts, like, oh my god, I didn't get that next because it was sold out. Well I got signed. Did you want to buy one for me. Oh my god, we'll full price with courts. So you're buying in between and are it's sitting in your garage? Ten percent? Ten percent makes it outside the MLM ten wow, temper that is nothing per cent ninety

stays in. It's in people's garages. It's in people's like closets or their jewelry boxes, and they doesn't have to have it because the true customers are the consultants. True customers are consoled in every single MLM. I'll get hate for that too, but that's true. People go, um, you were just bitter, like you just were in the wrong MLM. I said, no, I wasn't. I've tried multiple and they're all the same. I talked to victims and they're all

the same. They're all the same. I challenge anybody that's listening to this that things they have an m l M that is not the same to email me and let me know and I will prove me wrong. It'll probably take me about five minutes, so make sure it's a good one. So I had to ask. One of my last questions for you, is I know in the film that you said that your goal ultimately when you left. Lular row was to get seventy five people out, because that's how many people you had in your your down line.

And you know, through your podcast, through your your work building communities with people who are involved with m l m S and reducing stigma and getting folks to talk honestly about it, you've probably helped like that number of times a hundred. How does that feel for you that you once were someone who were recruiting people to be involved in this and now you have kind of gotten so many people out of it and reduced that stigma for so many people, Like what is that like for

you a resonal level? Oh? Man, that's a good question. Um, you know, it's true. I wanted to get out because I had at my height, I had seventy five women in only a few of them I knew, you know, I talked about that too, being stacked. So there was a lot of people. So I really, I mean, I feel responsible for all seventy five, but I feel deeply responsible for maybe about twenty of them even more so. Um, and I just knew and a lot of them left before me, and they were like ROBERTA, And I was like,

it's weird, right, And they're like, it's super weird. And you know, they also helped me get out, and I appreciate them and I loved them for that as well, because they helped me sort of see it when I couldn't see it. And I needed that outside perspective because if you're in an MLM and you're only asking inside perspective, you will never get out of your MLM. You have to reach out of the organization. You will never find

truth where it is being suppressed UM. And so I knew that getting out was like something I had to do, and I grappled with it. I grappled the struggle. I cried. I I felt like the biggest piece of ship in the whole entire world. But I had trusted the wrong people and had gotten people that I loved and trusted in it to it. And I I first turned my

shopping group into a goob mall. So goog stands for going out of business, and we called we called us, we called ourselves goobers, which is that in the group it says like Roberta's Google goog goobing with roberta and friends, or that I forget UM and I turned it into a goog mall and I said, you guys can use my group and you can sell your stuff, and we we helped a lot of people liquidate their inventory. In the beginning, because I didn't really know how to help people.

I I wasn't so first on MLM, and I hadn't found my voice, and I didn't really have a platform yet. I just knew that I was helping people out, and I helped a couple of people out that way. And then you know when when the media came and they asked me to speak, and and my team and Defective were like, yeah, Roberta, you you do it because you talked to people better. I was like, okay, I'll be the face. All right, let's do this. And it was kind of reluctant, but also at the same time, I

was like, whatever, let's do this. You know someone has to be the one to talk to media, It'll be me. And ever since, from like that first the first thing I ever did, I started getting messages from people saying I read this, and you confirmed some things, and I joined effective and I'm leaving or you know something you said about this remind me about my time in Mala Lucca, And so I looked into it and it's an m l M, right, And I said yeah, and they're like,

I gotta leave. And so all of a sudden, these people started coming to me. And it wasn't just seventy five women in Rowe anymore. It was like thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of people across MLM. Like I get emails messages with my My inboxes are so full, I can't even get through them. Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's incredible. People want to tell their story. People want to come on my podcast and tell their story.

And you know, I was given that platform to tell my story when I did the Vice documentary, and to me, it was the best therapy I could have ever gotten because I was given a platform to tell my story and have somebody saying you're not crazy. It happened to me too. Um And so in February I started my own podcast because I thought, hey, that's a great way to help even more people and just sorry, I told my story. That was the first episode I Told My Story.

I think it has twenty thousand downloads that that first pilotus And you know, I just sort of sat there on Valentine'sday was my first Valentine's Day single in a long time. And I just sat there and told my story and uploaded it that same day, and I was like, well, I guess I just started a podcast. And so many people were like, oh my god, thank god you finally started this podcast. When can I be on it? And the response has been overwhelming. I can't even keep up

with it. I probably meet like a producer or a helper of some sort, but you know, baby steps, day by day, We'll see where it goes from here. Um. But to me, like everything I've done has helped more people each time I do it, and so I love that I've helped so many people. It makes me feel like all of this was worth it, you know, like the butterfly effect of me saying maybe I should join this buttery crotch pant company. Um. And like ruining, I didn't ruin my life. I don't want to use the

term ruined my life. UM. I don't think I'm ruined. I do know that there were people that were ruined. UM. I could have been ruined, but I wasn't. And I think I've used my strength my dad, who passed away in two thousand thirteen, is. It is a huge influence and in like just a strong force. He's with me all the time. He's probably disappointed that even joining the Lure in the first place, but he's really really proud

of me that I'm fighting against them now. Um. And you know, for me, it's just he taught me to do what's right and when I see something, to say something. And that's something that we're doing now. You know, there there are so many different social justice issues that there are.

There's so many different social justice issues and so many different movements, and it is so incredible that the Internet has given us a giant platform to be able to talk to people, to be able to share our stories and be able to corroborate experiences in any of these movements. And I'm just so happy that I get to be a part of this movement and I get to be a part of helping people learn that, like Emma, limbs are nasty and not worth it. And you know, I

love to educate that on TikTok. We educate all day when I'm not banned on TikTok about why em limbs are bad. If you have questions, I will answer them, um, and we we break it down. We break down the stigma, and we we take this really giant, complicated, confusing topic and we break it down into much easier consumable things. And um, I was talking my friend the other night because he's like, this this anti am olym thing is

so confusing. I don't understand it. And I said, it's like math, right, you don't start with calculus on day one, so you learn the basic principles of why am alyin is bad, and then you work your way up to the government collusion. We don't start there. Like there are so many people are like, why aren't these companies still legal? And I said, the government protects them. They're like what I said, that's calculus. You're still in basic middle school altble,

So let's start there. And and you know, I know this is like all Chicken walked everywhere and I talk a lot, but that's why I have a podcast, um um. But yeah, you know it's it's I just feel like it's a big jog or not and it's like just

getting bigger and it's just rolling. And I've been talking with the producers because everybody's like, we need a second season and talking with them about you know what the future looks like and uh, We've been on the phone and in texts for the past couple day, so I can't really say anything yet, but there are definitely things moving forward um and new projects being talked about because

people are so enthusiastic. So keep commenting, keep telling us that you want more episodes, that you want more m lens to be exposed, that you want more dirt uh, and more big batties to be taken down. Um and I will do my best two you know, get it to the right people's hands. Hell yeah, we need going Clear style docu series starring Roberta taking down m l ms. Like when where is the thing that we need it? Now? I know I want that. Let's do that. That's a baz.

I got all kinds of contacts, like we could, we could, we could bake that, we could bake that. It would be amazing. I love it, Roberta. Where can folks keep up with you your podcast and your work? Okay, so you can find me on Instagram. I have two different instagrams. I have the real Robert of Levins where I do advocacy stuff and I'll share TikTok videos there when I'm when I'm banned. That's what you find me when TikTok's down. And then my podcast has an Instagram as well, called

Life After m l M Podcast. Uh. And then you can find me on TikTok at birda Like Woe or birda like Whoa two point oh. If I'm blocked currently, they're both blocks, and when you go to follow me, it will tell you that I do have community violations and they're gonna ask if you're sure, and you're just gonna want to say yes, I am only the best of us. Get those warnings. Uh. And then you can find me on Twitter, which I just started doing, and that's bird of like Woe too. And then Facebook is

Roberta Levens. You can find me there and I believe the podcast has a Facebook page two, but I'm very bad at updating things. I love it well, Roberta. I cannot tell you how grateful I am for you sharing your story in the film. You're probably my favorite part of the film, and honestly, I as soon as I saw it, I was like I had to talk to her.

She is amazing. Thank you so much for all your work helping people you know, talk about this and all your honesty and sharing your experiences and just who you are. You really I can listen to you talk all day. You really have a lightness and an energy to you that I think really bring. You bring so much of yourself to this. So thank you got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi. You can reach us at Hello at tangodi dot com.

You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangodi dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Ary Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Tod. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us

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