Is the #Girlboss era over? (with Jamie Loftus!)

traditionally male dominated spaces like technology and entrepreneurship. So when I hear the word girl boss, I think of women like Cheryl Sandberg formerly of Facebook, Sophia Amarossa, who basically wrote the book on girl Boss memoir and the Netflix show based on her life was literally called girl Boss, and Elizabeth Holmes, who may have girl bossed a little bit too close to the sun when her blood testing company,

Sara Knows was revealed to be a scam. And I will admit I had a bit of a girl boss era where I thought feminism was connected to me individually, kicking as professionally and making a lot of money. Now, to be clear, there is absolutely nothing wrong with women having ambition in their careers or holding power. That is all great, but the girl boss era really sold us

ambition as liberation. It sold us on the idea that you could lean in and overperform your way out of institutional systems like racism, patriarchy, sexism, and capitalism and more and more. I think we're seeing the flaws in that mindset in her one woman show, Girl Whom His Boss? Comedian and podcaster Jamie Law this takes on the girl boss.

Her Cheryl Sandberg style girl boss archetype is named Shell Gasolene Sandwich, and she's a toxic corporate feminist who's teaching all fellow girl bosses how to use technology to steal data for fun profit and hashtag feminism. It's part skiering, parts end up, and a hundred percent hilarious. So I just finished watching Girl Whom His Boss. It is hysterical, and I want to start with a question, be honest, Before you did Girl Whom His Boss? Did you go

through a girl boss phase? Um? Probably, I think it's like I've it's hard. It's it's a kind of struggle with the term, especially because I've like messed with it. So heavily. I mean, I don't know. I think you can describe a lot of um trying to make space for yourself where it doesn't exist as girl boss behavior, and then if you're a little disingenuous about it, that

really turns up the girl boss factor. I'm sure I've had girl boss moments over the years, not like um ones that are that almost kill people, but I'm sure that there's I've I I feel like, you know, we've all had our girl boss moments and then you reflect on them and you're just like, hopefully they weren't you know, publicly documented or anything. I don't know, I don't know,

that's a good question, have you Oh my god. I mean, I wasn't starting any genocides in meanma or anything, but I was definitely had a phase where I was kind of I don't know, but like I read Sophia Amarosso's book Girl Boss when it first came out, and right, I definitely had this idea that it was it was.

I had absorbed this message that it was important to be a specific kind of working woman, like a you know, woman who wore blazers, and like, you know, like I had this idea that you had to be a certain kind of woman to be successful professionally, and that how I was just normally was not that. And then I needed to like I don't know if I'm call it a girl boss era, but I was definitely like had absorbed a lot of maybe not so helpful messages about feminism.

I guess I'll say that, Yes, yeah, I feel like there, like early, I don't know, like when I was like exposed to like early, I guess third wavy feminism, You're it just felt like this illusion of control, like if I act a certain way and I do certain things, then um, I will be an equal and which like ignores literally everything. Um. And it didn't work. And so then I think I kind of exited that area and like, um,

read a book or something. I don't know. So if you had to define what a girl boss is to you, um, how would you define it? Um? I think that there's different levels of it. I feel like it's a as time goes on, it's a blanket term that doesn't you know,

it can apply to a lot of different behaviors. For some people, it's literally just a woman who has power, which I think is kind of a slippery slope that um you know, uh, misogynists have co opted it and refer to any behavior of any woman with any semblance of power or influence to be girl boss ori. Um, I don't think that's the case. I like, you know, I'm I'm completely fine with women holding power like that's that's great, um in in some cases, but girl boss

y is uh. Basically, I think like taking on the language of feminism to lift up yourself or a harmful institution and as an individual with like no collective interest in um in anyone but yourself, And so I feel like good examples are you're Elizabeth Holmes, is um your Cheryl Sandberg's who are like lifted as this example of like feminist wind. But then you look at what they're doing, uh, and it's um, you know, upholding patriarchy and appeasing uh

male billionaires or that was a long definition. It's it's perfect what I was gonna say, I was going to add to your list of girl bosses or your shell Gasoline Sandwiches. Yes, she's bad. She that that woman especially like I just I don't know how she is still just like out and about it's absurd. So how did how did you come to be someone who was like really skewering this idea of the girl Boss and what it's come to me in our culture and our landscape,

Like what what? Why was this something that you really wanted to poke fun at and and build commentary around. At the time, there wasn't like a ton of discussion

around it. Um and what like kind of originally piqued my interest in it was I was really really into the Elizabeth Holmes story and um and I feel like I'm wondering if you've had this experience too, where like there were there would always just be like these lists that would be released kind of on like click baitier websites that are like women who are changing the podcast or like changing comedy, and like sometimes you know, like uh, my podcast The Factel Cast with Caylin Torante, like we

would appear on the same list of people that I'm like, now, hold on, I cannot believe that we are doing the same thing. And I'm I'm upset that we're on the same list because this person is clearly just selling something, you know. Like so it was, it was, uh, you know, kind of a selfish frustration I was having. Um And but realizing like, Okay, we are using a lot of the same language, but it's to like attempt to um to accomplish something really different. And so I don't know.

And then when I looked into the term more and then into tech specifically, I read a few different books to like get that show kind of off the ground and give it um a level of specificity that I wanted it to have. And and yeah, so I sort of just took it from there. Oh my gosh. The thing that you just said, I mean, I don't want to this is I'll just say I completely identify with those lists of you know, like, oh, women in podcasting, you should know where not to put the kind of

podcast that you and I make on a pedestal. But like, I'm not I'm not really selling anything. I'm not selling courses. I'm not selling coaching. I'm not selling like a workshop. There's something that I'm trying to get you to buy. I'm trying to curate thoughtful conversations about culture and the way that gender shows up in culture. And I often met a little bit like I'm like, oh, well, like no shade to them, but we're just doing very different things.

And I would not call myself like, I'm I'm not offended when I wind up on those lists, but I'm like, oh, I feel like we're doing very different things. Like the show that I'm making is different than someone who's making a show that is like you know, by my of course that teaches you how to do whatever, or like my coaching seminar that teaches you how to do whatever.

I just feel like it's is an example of how like narrowly women are viewed where it's like you don't see lists like that for like men that are changing the podcasting game. They're like put into genres and categories. Um maybe because people are like listening to their work a little more care carefully and taking it more seriously. I don't know that's such a good point. And I think you know, you mentioned Elizabeth Holmes, so I was

obsessed with her story. I watched every episode of The Dropout and one of the things that I think that that her story really shows us, and I think that your that your show really does a good job of like skewering this. You know. One of the things that that um uh, Gasoline Sandwich talks about is like, oh, I will teach you basic feminism and how to use

it to commit crimes against the poor. And I think there's so much truth to this where we have this tendency to, I don't know, like put women and the work that we make into these specific categories and boxes that are not always helpful and not always thoughtful. Jamie and I are both captivated by Elizabeth Holmes. And if you watch the Hulu show The Dropout, you'll recall that when investigators were closing in on her and her theorop O scam, Elizabeth Holmes initiated a pretty brilliant PR push

to throw off the heat. She said that she was only being attacked because she's a prominent woman in technology, which I'm sure was at least partially true, and that the whole thing was just one big sexist smear. She created a campaign called hashtag iron Sisters to celebrate strong women like her who are breaking the glass ceiling, and it kind of worked. If you search Twitter, they're still very earnest hashtag iron sisters tweets up right now, And honestly,

I get it. I think this was a time when it was easy to look at a woman succeeding and say that's feminism. Whether what she was doing was a

scam or actually hurting people on the dropout. When Elizabeth Holmes is like feeling the heat, she makes that campaign Iron Sisters that really highlights like, oh, you know, we're women who are who are in technology and trying to shatter the glass ceiling, as if just being a woman in technology who has a job in tech is like in and of itself an act of feminism in and of itself an act of like solidarity or something like that.

And the way that that is used to kind of like not really look too deeply at the work that is actually being created. I don't know. I feel like your show does a really good job of demonstrating the ways that we have allowed i don't know, conversations around gender to really keep from really looking too hard about what's at what's actually being done. Thank you, Oh that means a lot to me. Thanks. Yeah, I don't know,

it's yeah. With the with the show, it's like, I don't know, I was hoping that it would like resonate for people and try to like make light of how frustrating and kind of like predatory that trend feels. Ortlanta especially felt a couple of years ago before it was like, um, now I feel like there's like a pretty like what what's the word I'm looking for robust, Oh my god,

uh robust public discussion around it. Um, but it just felt like to like connect with audiences about how frustrating it was in the same way where I'm like, I've been feeling bad for the last two minutes, being like I didn't mean that, like podcast women's podcasts that are trying to sell you lifestyle choices like are you know better or worse than than what you or I do?

But then it's I don't know, I feel like there's this weird pressure to support every woman doing everything even though it's like, well, you know, wouldn't true equality mean you could kind of call bullshit on some behavior. I don't know, it's so it's so weird. I still like struggle with it. Yeah, it is a struggle, and I hear you. I don't want to make it seem like like I absolutely no shade to creators for whom that's

their thing. But I do think like I think we because we live in a capitalistic healthscape nightmare society, there is an inclination to any woman who is making money there's an inclination to be like, oh, well, that's feminism. That's a win for feminism, even if they're making money in a way that is like predatory or harmful to others. And I think that we I'm glad that we're moving

away from this. But I think in like peak Girl Boss era, feminism was sort of sold to us as like I'm allowed to do anything even if it hurts people, and that's feminism, and when you criticize me, that's the opposite of feminism. And I'm I guess I'm glad to see that we're sort of getting away from that because I think that was actually like not great for women.

A lot of things can be true where it's like, you know, Elizabeth Holmes and Cheryl Sandberg absolutely used their status as feminist symbols to like shield themselves against falid criticism and also people were sexist towards them at different points in their career, and like both of those things

are true and worthy of discussion. Um, and it's you know, not fair that they experienced discrimination, but also like using that and using like having experienced something like that as a shield for discus saying what you've done to harm other people with far less power than you do. Is like, how is that helping anything or moving anything forward? Like it doesn't. Um uh so Cheryl Sandberg is you know kind of like well, you know, people were sexist to

me early in my career and still sometimes now. So I don't need to talk about the genocide I had a part. You're like, that's just um, that's that's not right, babe. Let's take a quick break out her back. The thing that really turned me on a concept of the girl boss was watching powerful women who were complicit and questionable companies or behavior enjoy this kind of un earned goodwill

simply for being women. Like for a long time, people wrote about Cheryl Sandberg, formerly a Facebook in a way that suggested that she couldn't possibly have a hands on role in some of the more evil things that Facebook was responsible for because of her gender, and that completely flies in the face of reality, because Sandberg was personally

responsible for some pretty messed up stuff at Facebook. She publicly defended and apologized for Facebook's role in facilitating a deadly genocide in Myanmar, but her bad behavior went beyond Facebook, including allegedly using her position at Meta to personally pressure a media outlet to kill a negative story about her then boyfriend, Blizzard Activision CEO Bobby Kotick. Now the story was about how a woman had taken a restraining order out on Kotick, who we know would go on to

be accused of sexual harassment and misconduct by staffers. So Earl Sandberg, the same woman who wrote a book telling women to lean in to overcome the toxic sexist workplace Boys Club and was branded the face of corporate feminism

for it was doing so while personally hurting women. I think Cheryl Sandberg is such an interesting example because something that I think is particular to her and some of the other, you know, people that you think of as girl bosses, is that, you know, when when people would criticize Facebook and all the horrible things that was responsible for globally, you know, genocide, disrupting democracies, all of those things.

I feel like Cheryl Sandberg was able to enjoy this unearned vibe where because she's a woman, certainly she must be the like mature adult in the room who is trying to rein in the likes of like Mark Zuckerberg's and the other tech bros. Like she's one of the good ones. She's trying her best, and I think that that and I see that also was like Ivanka Trump that certainly she must be the voice of re in who is trying to like rate in all the men

around who her, who are causing harm. And I feel like they really used this unearned goodwill that came from being women working in situations surrounded by powerful men to excuse examination of a lot of their own behavior and

things that they were frankly really complicited. Like I know for a fact that Cheryl Sandberg had a pretty big hand in a lot of like harmful stuff that Facebook did, harmful stuff that other tech companies did, Like when Cheryl Sandberg was was in a relationship with Bobby Kotick, the CEO of Activision Games, and actively helped create, actively helped squash stories about his bad behavior, including like alleged sexual misconduct.

And so it's like that's that is you being complicit in like behavior that hurts women and so just kind of like letting that behavior go unchecked because or a woman working in a male dominated environment, and of course you've experienced sexism, which is not okay. I think they've really been they were really savvy and using a lot of the of what you were just talking about to avoid critical looks at their own active bad behavior. Absolutely, that's I don't hear that example brought up very much.

You're totally right, I kind of forget about that where it's like, you know, at that point, she's actively oppressing people and like women specifically about the you know, and and her whole like her whole book, The whole idea was like, you know, lean In is just like, well, women aren't being paid like equally or treated well because they haven't asked, which is like, it's just so wild that that was a book that came out and was like widely accepted as the truth ten years ago, where

she was just like, yeah, it just like literally has not occurred to your boss to pay you equally, and you just need to like buy a blazer and and arch in there and say, guess what, buster I talk to someone and you need to give me the right amount of money, like and and that's not like completely useless advice, but I feel like girl boss mentality takes place in this void where systemic issues don't really exist, or they do exist, but they are like they can

be surmounted by one person. Um, Yeah, I don't know. It's like it's it's a nice I get why. It's a nice kind of thing to buy into. And I think for like it sounds like whatever, Like Cheryl Sandberg is like a privilege sis white woman, so it it is going to be easier for her to surmount um,

what's in front of her. But it just like is I don't know, it's like this kind of like bummer fantasy that you're It feels very like late two thousands where you're like, yeah, I guess that that that makes sense that everyone was so umped about that, but uh, you know now we can't now Rovie Wade doesn't even exist.

So yeah, it's funny. It's wild. Yeah, it is wild, And it's like it's it's so throwback he in a kind of way because I just did a podcast episode about um Lena Dunham and I was like looking at like what was the cultural and political and social attitude of like and it was a different time, like I

And it's funny. I go back and look at my Facebook page back then and like I was definitely on some like Beyonce Leslie No, like I like I really I understand my my understanding of what being a feminist was, it has really evolved. And I looked back then and I'm like, yeah, I thought it was like slay queen, like you know, like it wasn't very useful to me or anybody around me, Like it felt good, and I

understand why. Yeah, it felt good, and I understand why I gravitated toward and like I get it the same way that like when someone's like just march in there and put on a blazer and tell your boss you want pay equality, why that advice feels good even if it's like, well, some things are institutionals, some things are systemic, Like you can't lean in individually, you know, you can't

lean in out of like something that's institutional. But yeah, I just think that we really culturally we're on a journey to figure out how feminism could be actually useful in our lives, and like in what ways it maybe

wouldn't be so useful. Yeah, yeah, totally, gosh. I I I feel like we we should there should be some sort of like um empathetic reckoning around like the feminism that existed ten years ago, because it's like embarrassing to look back good for me, Like I look at like I was like, oh, she was really trying, she was really trying to figure stuff out. Uh. It was basically

a miss across the board. It was like a lot of leslie Nope, a lot of like uh, I don't know, like just that era where it definitely like had its part and moving us forward. But you look back at it, you're just like, man, what was what was I getting at there? Um? And it's kind of a relief, I don't know, to like look back ten years and be like, wow, things really have moved forward, like considerably, because it's like

that it's like stuff that you'd barely recognize now. I don't know, like it's or something that is like kind of widely recognized as like this is fun and this like feels nice, but this isn't like productive. But it felt like we were really you know, doing something at the time. Um, it really did. Like I guess I thought like if only I bought enough notorious RBG crap on Etsy that like we would really like we wouldn't

really get somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, And it's like all unethically produced and just like stuff we weren't thinking about at all, like it's just oh my god, yes, that notorious RBG. Look, I I just last year had to finally like I've kept like hiding it throughout my house, but like the I'm with her, You're just like, Jamie, what or are you doing? You're a socialist, get it together? What? Um So I am? I am? You know, I'm glad that

we've moved forward with that. I was literally hiding it like I was like it was I was like just just I don't know, and then if that's the kind of thing, not me explaining what I did with my Hillary Clinton tank top. But I'm like, you can't really donate this. No one wants this, right, I don't, but I donate it and maybe they lit it on fire.

I don't know, but um just wild stuff. And even like in terms of like being able to speak on harassment and abuse, like this time ten years ago because I was in uh, I was in college ten years ago and there was like no public DISCUSSI around harassment and like it just I don't know, things have really changed a lot, and it's like we actively live in hell, but I try to remember, like we know how to talk to each other about living in hell now, which is kind of um, I don't know, maybe that's like

very little comfort, but it is. It does feel like an improvement. It does. And I was just thinking about this when I was prepping to speak with you today, Like I do feel like most people have like, unless you're like deep in an MLM, I feel like most people have been like, Okay, maybe the girl Boss era was not super helpful, and we've kind of like left.

I feel like we've kind of moved. A lot of us have moved beyond girl boss hustle grind culture, and I think I see, you know a lot of the ways that like all these people that we think of as like o G girl Boss is, Cheryl Sandberg, Elizabeth homes Sofia Almarrosso, they have all kind of I don't want to say, like had their downfalls, but they've they've they're no longer a prominent part of the public conversation anymore.

And I wonder, like, what do you think that means that so many of the O G girl bosses are now kind of fading from notoriety. And Elizabeth Holmes might be going to jail, So you know, there's that I sometimes I forget she's not in jail, which is, um, god, the age of Coachella is is so fascinating. Uh I just what can I say? Um? Okay, So I mean

I don't know. I I honestly like I got so um burnt out on girl Boss culture and doing that show that I haven't really tracked very carefully, like what the followed of that is, because I do like again doing that, even doing that like dinky little show that

I loved doing. But it's like, you know, I was performing that show in a storage unit in Scotland for a month, so you know, you're like it's like you're seeing a hundred people at night, but there, and and but there were some people that would you know, come up to me after that show who genuinely were like, you know, I really enjoyed it, and but like their takeaway was like women in power are disingenuous, and You're like, well, that is I think the little bit of danger that's

introduced by the girl Boss um criticism and sort of that wave that I feel like is also dying now. It is just like the gigantic amount of media and now it's like the girl Boss is kind of a stock character that people are getting sick of because like you're saying, they're kind of fading from um the public.

I UM. But I think, like, I think it's it's good that like women who are you know, it's taking on the language of feminists and the tools of uh oppressors like that that is something that is like completely acceptable and normal to to be able to call out um.

And I think that that makes room for a lot more of I mean, I think that makes room and sets a standard for just like leaders in general of like you can't just throw your uh like your womanhood in my face and say that this shield do from critique and that's like not okay, and it's publicly kind of accepted that that's not okay. And then the other side of that, I feel like is still like misogyny

still alive. And well I'm wondering, like, has the Girl Boss era and and all the very valid critique that's been made of women like this, have other women come into power in their stead? Have people been more like and has it been diverse at all? Like or is it just kind of another crop of white women who are like learning like, oh, I can't do that, I can't do that, I can't do that. But here's how I'm going to kind of innovate, leveraging the tools of

oppressors against other people. I don't know, I don't feel optimistic about it. I guess, yeah, that's something that I really struggle with. It's like I definitely see the vibe of like people thinking that critiques of Girl Boss means that, like you're critiquing any woman in power, that oh, yeah, women who have power are disingenuous, they're awful, we should

critique them, when that's not really what you're saying. And I do I want to because I think it's so easy for critiques of women with power to just veer into being grounded in sexism and misogyny, because like our

should not hold power exactly right. But like I also think that, like, you know, I think that like leaving behind this sort of disingenuous girl Boss vibe, at least for in my own life, Like I think of myself as an entrepreneur, even though like I'm pretty shitty at it, but I think it maybe can open up room for I mean, you're trying my best, But I used to think that I had to be a certain kind of

woman to be a successful entrepreneur. And now I'm realizing that all of those like very narrow um like ways

of thinking we're not serving me. And what I really need to be thinking about is like making room for leadership that feels good, it is aligned with who I am and my own values and in like figuring out ways that I can lead in ways that make me feel good, get the work done, and uphold my values of how I want to treat people, and that like it's like having those be like very narrow, narrowly defined

by gender is not useful to me. I don't really think it's useful to anybody, And like we have the the challenge is finding out like how we lead with our values and not how we lead along like very narrow buzzwords like girl boss. I love that, Yes, I totally, I totally agree, And I hope that that is like I hope more. I hope I just want more people

to be like you rid it. I uh yeah, I mean it's like yeah, like leading with your values and like I mean because I don't know, like I funk up, like no one is going to be perfect a hundred percent of the time, which I feel like also was kind of a part of the girl boss Eto was like, there is no margin for error. Um, but like yeah, just taking out look like an honest like at what you're doing, and like just cut checking yourself. I try to. I try to do that as much as possible, where

you're just like, Okay, who is this for? Like does this have a purpose? And sometimes if the answer is just like this is just a goofy weird thing I want to do, I'm like, Okay, well that's not hurting anyone. I didn't do it. But yeah, just like gut checking the potential impact of stuff you do, which is like I feel like that's more becoming auh, like go to question for not just people making stuff, but people who consume stuff as well, which I think is good. I

like it more. After a quick break, let's get right back into it. Cheryl Sandberg left Facebook back in June, and she left with barely a blip when compared to the splashy fanfare that accompanied her hiring a Facebook, her books, and her successful branding as a capital w working woman. We saw the same thing with other girl boss types like Sophia Amarossa and man Repellers Landrumadine, who all left their companies. So is the era of the Girl Boss

officially dead, and if so, what comes next? During those especially tough years early on in the pandemic, I saw so many women turn to aesthetics like the that girl aesthetic that prizes self care and wellness, or at least the idea of it. But will an aesthetic ever really be the thing that saves us? Will the revolution come? And imagine workout set looking onto the horizon. Now that we're sort of moving away from Girl Boss, what do you think do you think there's an ethos that might

replace it? And is there a way that that ethos might be, you know, not something that is just sort of buzzwordy and co OPTI because now that we're all kind of like being like, okay, hustle grind is not? Maybe is not? Maybe the move? Um, I see all of these things like oh, like paying lots and lots of money for the idea of self care or like you know, the on TikTok, like the quote that girl

aesthetic or like the slow life aesthetic. I guess I like that those are coming into style, I guess, but I still wonder if like it's just another kind of buzzworthy thing that will be co opted and ultimately you to like further marginalize us or further harm us. Like I feel like, do you think there's a way that we could expect better from these ethos that like that

they might actually serve us? Yeah, I mean, I I feel like as much as is possible, like it's just talking to people in real life and like having conversations outside of the Internet, like which again, ten years ago, I really felt like, you know, feminism and like all of these like systemic problems that I did not have really much understanding of at the time, Like this is going to be something that's going to be worked out on the internet, and the Internet is a useful tool

for this stuff. I don't like, I don't know, I feel like a little differently right now where I feel like obviously there is like incredible community building that happens on the Internet, and I don't want to like take away for or be reductive of of online communities, but I feel like, yeah, for me, I like sometimes when your algorithm is like feeding you certain stuff and you're like you're like, I mean, I felt I I resisted the skincare, like you have to spend hundreds of dollars

on skincare or you don't love yourself. Um kind of vibe for years, but then finally during lockdown, I caved and I like got a bunch of goopy not actual group, but like I bought a bunch of sauces, and you know, it's like now I love myself, which you know not true, um, and I feel like, yeah, it's just talking with my

actual friends in real life. I feel like usually clarifies a lot of stuff really quickly in a way that I find really comforting and uh, life affirming because it's so easy for I mean for me, I'm like also, um, when it comes to things that are praying on my self esteem, I'm extremely gullible and so stuff like that, Like I am very, very susceptible to fall for no matter how that's I mean, which is kind of like, I don't know, I wonder what you're kind of opinion

is on this stuff, because it's like I get so annoyed with myself because I'm like, wow, I like spend so much time trying to like understand how these things work, and I still when it preys on my self esteem specifically, I fall for it immediately, and I'm like, oh, my god. Yes, I'm horrible. Wait, I'm bad. I should I should buy this product? Um? So I just need to Yeah, like gut checking with a real life community and just talking

to each other outside of like algorithmically dictated conversations. UM feels like what's been helpful for me? Oh, I feel the exact same way, especially during COVID like lockdown. I I can't tell you. I would be ashamed if I if I could tabulate it all up, I would be ashamed to tell you how much money I spent on like matching workout sets, yoga stuff, skincare, green juice. Is Like I just really was like I understood that I

was not happy, and I mean who was happy? And during you know when COVID first sounds like who was happy during that time? But I understood that I wasn't happy, and I was trying to fill that void of unhappiness with more crap that had been targeted to me on Instagram. And for a while, it like really was like almost pathological, Like I would see a picture of a woman, you know, doing her daily routine and it looks so great, and it was like I have to buy everything that she has,

and maybe that will make me happy. And it really was just like, yeah, I'm in I'm in Lockdown, COVID is happening, I'm miserable like everybody else, and I need to like nothing I can buy is going to fix that. Like I had to like like actively work to turn off whatever was in my brain that would make me hit. I when I saw a targeted, you know, algorithmically generated Instagram ad for something that was promising me this promise of having a happy, fulfilled, wholesome life that I was

so yearning for. Mhm. Absolutely. And it's like and also it's like looking back on that, you're like, how lucky were we that we got to like sit at home and obsess about stuff like that, because like everyone's experience of Lockdown was so wildly different. And yeah, I it's I don't know, I I it's mind fuck And I look back at like times like that and times like that, literally the end of the world, times like that, the plague, um, and I feel like it feels almost like a different

person and that was like us two years ago. Um, It's just yeah, it's wild. It is wild, and I'm I'm happy that we're able to have conversations about how we can get someplace more meaningful, meaningfully productive, I guess, and not just rely on algorithms and buying crap and buzzwords that will ultimately get us, I think, further away

from where we want to be. Yeah. Yeah, and just like I don't know, like yeah, and I think like just trying to have empathy for each other and like talking, I don't know, like I have found a lot of um, I guess, like just like a lot of comfort and um it feels like, you know, a productive discussion, but also it's like not every discussion has to be productive.

Sometimes we can just talk and like that's great too. Um, But the like incredible pressure and stress there is right now to understand everything that's going on all the time. Him and I feel like it's like with during the Girl Boss era, the pressure was very much like you need to I'm kind of thinking of the like Ga Talentino essay about like optimizing yourself as a woman and becoming like the optimal woman and everything you do is productive and and serving this higher purpose of like moving

forward in the world. Um. And even as sort of that has become less of a popular mindset, even though it's definitely not gone, um, because you know, capitalism is

still a thing. Um. I feel like there's kind of a flip side of that, where you know, the world is like metaphorically and actually on fire and there's so many things going on and that there's like this pressure that is like reinforced by the Internet to like know exactly what's going on, have a completely well articulated idea about it, like a plan of action, like all of

this stuff for like five hundreds like just there. It's impossible, and I feel like being able to talk to people about the the existential stress of that without you know, going towards like nihilism and not being like, well, I'm not going to do anything, but just like talking about just being more comfortable. I don't know, I'm trying to be more comfortable saying like I don't know, um, or like I don't know much about that, or did am

I making sense? I don't know? Like oh absolutely, like giving yourself space to be like I'm still working on that or like we'll see or I'm not sure, like not every kind of like we I do think that we have like the Internet has given us this pressure to be experts and everything, and they have it all figured out, and we should really be pushing back by giving us giving ourselves space in grace to be you know, not experts and not have it all figured out and

not have a good action plan. And that's okay too, right, or just like yeah, with some stuff, it's like, oh, I don't I mean, right now, I'm thinking of the January sex hearings because of when we're recording this. But like I'm like, I don't have a strong opinion on that because I haven't watched it yet. I will get her out, I will do it. There's there's just been other existentially looming issues on my mind. I haven't gotten to that one yet, And um, I don't, like I

don't want to. I don't feel embarrassed or in shamed that I didn't, you know, watch the five. Like how many Trials of the Year have aired on television this year? Um, yeah, I guess I don't know if that makes any sense, but like, yeah, I just and I feel like usually when you're you say something like that, there's you know a couple of people who will be like, oh, okay,

cool me either, not I because it's impossible. It's like, I mean, for some people I mean, I know that there's a select few that are just like extremely good at staying on top of stuff, but it's it's impossible to be a person um that and um be completely

on top of everything all the time. It doesn't you know, Like the attempt I think is important and we should know as much as we can, um, But the whole idea of like curation and like not only do I need to know everything, but I need to be able to speak to it in the most Like it's like, Okay, give yourself a little bit of space, give yourself a little bit of time. The world will still be ending tomorrow.

I have a good friend of mine who has done a lot of work in like active war zones, and one of the things that she says is to keep your peace, you have to limit the amount of news that you consume, that you actively consume and just trust that you if it's something big that you really need to have on your radar, it will find itself to you.

Because that's because it will, Like if there's something that you actually need to be like knowing every minute detail of each January six mission, hearing all the major players that won't bring you peace and it actually might not even make you better informed. It will definitely make you anxious, and it might even give you up at night. And so just knowing that like the broad strokes, just trusting that the broad strokes of what you need to know

will reach you, and it probably will. That's that's like a key to to keeping your peace when things are falling apart and on fire all around us every day, all the time. Totally. Yeah, Okay, that that is you

just like said it all in one sentence. What took me like an hour to like circle around too, But you like, yeah, like as long as you know, I have like a few news sources that I trust, and I'm like, okay, I do trust, you know, the people working at X new source to tell me what I need to know in a way that isn't I don't know, Like so much of the way that news is presented to us now is performance, and it's sometimes feels I feel like shame and like embarrassment for like not being

able to engage with it in real time. Um, but then I just have to remind myself, like the I don't know, like the ramifications of what is being said and what is being shown and decided are incredibly real. The way they're presented is performance, and so like, how can I I need to be able to engage with the results. I have to be able to engage with

understanding who is this going to affect? Like what is there anything within my power that I can be helpful with or like, you know, just sort of sorting that out when when any existentially stressful issue comes up, which it feels like happens every other day, but the way it's presented is so, um, I don't know, it doesn't feel productive and it and it like you're saying, like it keeps you up at night and it feels bad and um, and you don't need to engage with the

circus to understand what the result of the circus is, you know, I don't. I'd like I'm not explaining it very well, but I'm trying to like develop a healthier attitude towards that and not feeling a shame for not wanting to watch a four hour broadcast of Um, you know MP four is of the most horrific ship ever that. Yeah, can you tell us a bit more about Lolita, Pod, Ghost Church and Bechtel Cast? Yeah? Cool? Um? Yeah, So I UM have a couple of different podcasts that I've

worked on. My weekly podcast, UM, which Pridget has been a guest on before, is called the Bechtel Cast. It's an intersectional feminist look at everyone's favorite movies. That's with my friend Caitlin Durante on I Radio. UM. It's my favorite. I really love doing it. And then I've also done a couple of UM solo podcasts that are more investigative

and they're all like limited series UM. And those are UM the ones we were talking about where Lolita podcast, which is a time episode examination of the book Lolita and kind of how um it was wildly taken out of context by UM the whole world. And then my most recent one is about American spiritualism, which is like a movement, uh that started in the eighteen hundreds that encourage people to talk to the dead vo sciences and

it's called ghost Church. I went to this like community of elderly um psychics in Florida to do some research and like looked into the history of the movement and uh, there's a lot there. I really enjoyed doing it. I got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi, you can reach us at Hello at tang godi dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangdi dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod.

It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer, Ary Harrison as our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from I heeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.