Gabby Petito and the search for ethical true crime

and after her disappearance. That's how much the experience changed me. Watching my friend's story be picked apart on Nancy Grace's true crime television show was one of the most surreal experiences of my life. I just remember how foreign the person that she was describing seemed to me. I didn't recognize my cool, funny friend at all. By the time I found her body, I had stopped watching programming about her case altogether. I just couldn't keep listening to people

trying to tell her story without her in it. This week, authorities found the remains of Gabby Potito, the twenty two year old woman who was documenting her travels to national parks with her fiance in a van. Now this story is heartbreaking, and it also feels really familiar to me.

Gabby's tragic story ignited social media. Now, many people were just legitimately trying to get the word out about Gabby's disappearance, but I was also really troubled by the kind of content that other folks on social media were making that included everything from baseless conspiracy theories two psychics claiming to have information about her whereabouts. Now, these weren't just random one off videos that maybe got a handful of views

here or there. They were going viral on platforms like Twitter and TikTok, and I just really didn't like it. It felt like some people were gleefully picking apart this tragedy with no regard for whether or not it was actually helpful, ethical, or respectful. And I think that's because when it comes to the genre that we know as true crime, in the kind of online conversation that it sparks, it can be easy to forget that they're actual people

and actual tragedies. So what happens when the darkest moments of a stranger's life are turned into content. Jessica Dean, also known as Blood Beth and Beyond, has the making videos on TikTok about some of the less ethical aspects of the true crime community. For months. You might remember her from our episode debunking viral myths around sex trafficking.

Fed up with the ways that content creators talk about tragedy like it's a puzzle or just an interesting story, she's been using her platform to urge for more careful, respectful,

and thoughtful conversations around crime. I want to say right up front that this is a tough conversation and I do not have all the answers, but I spoke to Jessica about what happens when true crime sparks of frenzy of internet sleuths and viral conspiracy theories, and now we can all work to create ethical conversations about crime that can lead to actual systemic change. So my name is Jessica Dean. I go by blood Beats and on primarily on TikTok, which was my largest platform, and I've actually

been on the podcast before. I'm excited to be back. I'm so grateful that you invited me back, and I guess today we're talking about true crime. Yes, we're so glad to have you back as a friend of the show, because I honestly can't think of a better person to help me unpack all of these feelings I've been having

about true crime content. You know, I'm not really a big consumer of true crime content myself, and I know that you've been really vocal about some of the problems with the genre on TikTok, and I guess I just feel like it exploits a very real anxiety that women have,

that tragedy is lurking around every corner. And I always really take issue with content that exploits and plays on our anxieties when it can also spark real world behavior like amplifying conspiracy theories or mobilizing internet sleuth who try to solve crimes without necessarily stopping to ask if it's actually a useful precedent. So, I guess my first question is, what are your thoughts on all this? What are your thoughts on true crime? And why do you make videos

trying to amplify the ways that true can be really unethical? Yeah, So I think it's important, like right off the bat, to save myself, um, a little bit of headache later, um, that I want to be clear that not all true crime content is the same, Especially on TikTok. There are some creators of true crime content that I find make uh at least what I would consider more palatable and

what I think is more genuine content. Um. But a lot of my videos I had made in the past were kind of hyper fixating and really shining a light on some of the rougher stuff that you can definitely find out there. Uh, And so like, with that out of the way, I think it's uh, probably important we talk about some of the more problematic popular stuff that

definitely goes viral. I find things ranging from true crime accounts that are dedicated to like frosting cookies, Like I think they're a professional baker and they'll be frosting cookies while they talk about some poor woman that was brutally murdered by her boyfriend, and they kind of make it I don't want to say lighthearted, but it definitely has a very lighthearted atmosphere about it, like, oh, look at me decorating this cute little cookie of a puppy, and

it feels to really take away from the seriousness of the situation. I've also found accounts that are dedicated to, uh somebody, you can find it on Amazon. Somebody published like a coloring book all dedicated to different types of serial killers, and I think they tried to advertise it as some sort of like educational material because I think it gives like a little blurb of each serial killer on every page, but it's also still a coloring book,

so it feels a little morbid. And oftentimes these people who are making these videos, they'll have themselves talking over these videos, and the attitude about it just seems very off.

They've got this very lighthearted, almost fun ha ha, crazy how this happened ten years ago, kind of attitude about it, and it's always been driving me really crazy because not to get into too many specifics about it, but as somebody who is actually pretty close to a very high profile case, if I saw somebody making content about that

specific high profile case, I could not be disgusted. So I can't imagine that people who had an even closer connection to these high profile cases they're covering might come across this content and how they might react or how that might make them feel. And it's it's truly unfortunate because I often hear kind of as a reaction to that is like, oh, they wouldn't see it, Um, well, I saw I've seen several videos related to the case that I have a connection to, and they don't make

me feel great. And I think it's really important that we remember that, especially if a lot of true crime content creators will come at with an attitude of respecting the victims and trying to bring awareness to situations, especially

if they're potentially ongoing. But that's kind of hard to that's a hard pill to swallow when you also look at their content and you're like, if I were the person affected by the situation, I would not feel comfortable with how you're covering your the attitude you have, or just the atmosphere of the content in general. So that was the big driving factor for me to highlight some of the more nefarious parts of the true crime community.

And I always want to make sure that people understand that, like I said, not all true kind all, not all true crime content is the same, and it's really important that we help uplift the content that is more ethical and is speaking more politely about it. But one of the biggest factors in that is highlighting though, but the worst parts and the kind of instances we want to be avoiding absolutely, you know, And I'm so glad that

you brought that up. You know, I think that it's so important for people to remember that you're talking about actual people and like their trauma and the and like their community members who are left behind to like pick

up the pieces. And you know, I think I think there was like a really frankly tasteless shirt or something about Jeffrey Dahmer, and I think it was your TikTok where it was like that wasn't that long ago, you know, his the family members of his victims are very much still alive, and like you think they don't have social media. You think that it's so far fetched that they would see, you know, tasteless crass shirts that people are selling with like cute see little slogans on them. I think it

can be. I think when I see true crime content that clearly does not take into effect the account that you're talking about real people who, some of whom can you know as yourselves, as you just said, like, we'll see the way that you're talking about their loved ones who were no longer here and like the worst most dark parts of their experiences and just sort of being

so callous about that really doesn't sit well with me. Absolutely, that was kind of my tipping point and uh not to like get too much of my own personal life. But the reason that the Jeffrey Dahmer shirt really stuck out to me is because I actually currently live in

Milwaukee and the Jeffrey Dahmer was from Milwaukee. So I don't know if it was the proximity to the crime that kind of made me feel this way, but seeing shirts that made a very lewd, sexual and very humorous jokes about it, I was like, why, why one are you comfortable selling this? Like the excuse of oh, it's just dark humor learned to take a joke can only carry you so far, and you can sell that shirt.

I'm not gonna stop you, Um, but I am going to remind you that these people were human things and that Jeffrey Dahmer predominantly targeted gay black men and he killed and sexually violently sexually assaulted children. UM. I'm gonna remind you of that, and you kind of have to live with how that makes you feel, because that's just reality.

And I think that helps snap a lot of people back into like, oh, this might not have been great, but there are people who are inevitably going to just use that it's dark humor, get over at excuse regardless, and we just kind of have to live with that. But I mean, if reminding people helps, I'm not going to be upset by it. Yeah, I mean, how would you if you were wearing happy to be wearing one of those like awful tasteless shirts making like making a

joke about Jeffrey Dahmer's crimes. Imagine like bumping into one like a family member of one of the victims, like you better be Like, but would I wonder if people would be how they would feel about explaining and it's just a joke because is dark humor to their face

that they actually came in contact with these folks. I think that like, perhaps it can feel like you're so removed from these people, like they don't even necessarily seem like real people whose feelings or whose perspectives you even need to take into account. It really just rubs me the wrong way. Yeah, there was actually a I believe it was a bar. I don't want to say it

was a restaurant. I think it was just a bar in Milwaukee that um, it's a really historical building, it's very iconic, and they actually gotten a lot of controversy. A few years ago, UH they were running like a Jeffrey Dahmer cannibal themed tour in the city of Milwaukee, and somebody had mapped out that they were only maybe like three or four miles away from Uh Dahmer's old apartment.

It's since been demolished, but they were like a stone's throw away from it, and it took so much public pressure to be like, the family members are still in this city. They probably drive past your bar. Why would you do this? And the amount of public pressure it took is pretty sad, But eventually they caved, and it kind of really helped the city Milwaukee reel back and be like, Okay, maybe we shouldn't have Jeffrey Dahmer themed food and drink and tours and make all these board

games and all these things like it. It really helped kind of put that into perspective. So I hate when you kind of have to land best or you have to put one figure on a like on a pike, to be like, look at this terrible thing, because like this is a business. I still I don't want these people to go jobless. But in an instance like that, sometimes it does take publicly shaming one large group of people to get the rest of the people to realize, like, hey,

maybe this isn't cool. So that's so interesting. I mean, I want to I wanna switch gears a bit and talk a bit about the case that I feel like is really just taking off on TikTok um, that tragic situation happening with Gabby Petito. Um by the time this comes out, you know, I know, the last update that I saw was that uh, they had found remains and they were consistent with her, but it wasn't wasn't clear if it wasn't not um. I I want to stay up right off the top of the the conversation that

you know, what happened to her is a tragedy. I I you know, I don't know the specifics of what has happened, but you know, it's tragic and horrifying, and like my heart goes out to her family and to her community, and I guess I wonder you know, I'm sure you've seen them to all of these very it almost seems like every time there was a new update, I was seeing new TikTok's on my for you page.

Some of them were just sort of like buy the book, like here's what's going on, you know, just like news update, and like I didn't really have a problem with those, but then I would see these other videos that almost seemed kind of gleeful or like excited. I can't even really describe it. It would be like you would think they were talking about like a new episode of a show they like, but they're actually talking about like the like disappearance of a young woman who is a real person.

And I can't really explain the why. I I just like, really, I was surprised to see this, and I was surprised to see how much it took hold. You know, I'm I'm a bit older than you. So I remember when Natalie Holloway went missing. I was in college, and it was like the around the clock coverage of her disappearance. People were like, oh, well, it's because she is a

like pretty white girl. And you know, there are so many different, you know, indigenous black and brown women who have gone missing in the same area that certainly have not gotten the same level of of you know, attention that this case has gotten. And that's not to take away from the fact that I'm happy that people are you know, really motivated to find her and that they're that they're like they're talking about her case. But I can't help but wonder like, is there a way that

people can talk about this situation? Just is seems kind of ghoulish to me. Absolutely, You're you're hitting out all the all of the points that I've been trying to get across on my TikTok. So, like you said, just to make sure that we're all clear, like, we are very happy that Gabby was able to get the social media attention that she did get. And I think it can high to an extent, it can highlight the power of social media because there were so many posts out

there being like, hey, this young girl is missing. Here is her name, here is her face, here's a couple of identifying markers, and this is where she was last seen. That's such critical information, especially if you're in that area. This is a little bit more unique because it kind of had like a transnational like it was two stay it's very far away from each other. But especially if

you're local, that can be really useful. Somebody who happens to see a TikTok about this girl, who happens to see a piece of critical evidence like how we actually experienced with this case. That is so crucial and it's so important. I never want to downplay how important that is.

But at the same time it has this is such an intense boomerang effect to that starts to come back around, and we did see so many videos of people with just outright the wrong attitude, very like you said, gleeful, almost getty, very excited whenever they could be the first one to break the next piece of information, which was usually just purely speculation with nothing to back it up. And it's frustrating to see that kind of content because you're always going to have that on the Internet no

matter what you're talking about. There's always going to be people when you have the entire world that your fingers, who take things the wrong way. But these videos were going viral, and I think that's one of the biggest criticisms I've got, and one of the biggest pieces of backlash I've got is why are you fixating on these total rando crazies who have no followers And that's not the case. I'm highlighting videos that have had hundreds of thousands,

if not millions of views. Yet somehow it seems like, nobody's calling out the tone, and I think it really speaks to the larger point of TikTok is a platform you can go viral on very easily. It is very easy to make content. The bar for entry is set incredibly low, and so you have people who are by far far from professional journalists making this kind of content.

But then at the end of the day, they want to be put in the same category as journalists, and they're like, I'm just breaking the news, I'm just trying to spread awareness. Be like, Okay, now you're starting to march in this territory of professional journalism, yet you're not holding yourself and nobody's holding you too remotely what we could could be considered journalistic standards. And like any journalist who puts out a story that's absolutely crass and inappropriate,

they're going to receive backlash. If these TikTokers want to be held in the same regard, they should were prepared for the same exact backlash. Let's say a quick break. Yeah, I saw one of the videos where um, somebody was referencing l Woods. You know that scene at the end of Legally Blonde where l is able to be like, oh, because of her her perm, she couldn't have been in

the shower because her curls are intact. And it was in reference to a Instagram picture of Gabby with blonde hair with like her her roots had been done so her roots were not dark. And again I think that referencing I love legally blonde. I think like referencing yourself as an L Woods type or any reference to that, to like a comedy when we're talking about a missing person, I think it's just not good. It's just it's been bad taste, you know, exactly. And I think, like I

remember back during the Boston bombing. At that time, I was like very active on Reddit, and redditors were so convinced they had found they had like solved the boss the Boston bombing. Uh. They thought it was this guy who had gone who had gone missing. His family was looking for him, and they were like, oh, the pictures are the same, and it turns out it was not true.

Like it was just they got the wrong guy. This family who was already suffering from their you know, their family member being missing, had to go through this process of being like, he's not the Boston bomber. He is missing, but he's not the Boston bomber, and it was just a case of like they got the wrong person. They they you know, internet slew this just didn't know what

they were doing. And so part of me, I mean, this is where it gets kind of complicated, and I don't necessarily have this is just my opinion, and I don't necessarily have the like right answer. I'm just I just have a lot of questions I saw on Twitter or someone saying like, oh, well, there's too much emphasis on some of the unsavory aspects of the true crime

TikTok community. But they're over there, they're glossing over the fact that like gen z TikTok or like young women and girls broke this case open, and you know that, you know, they really cracked this case and gonna be thinking like, hey, I'm not sure if that's true. B When you glorify internet sleuth you also have to take into account that internet sleuths have like ruined people's lives, got the wrong person, you know, just gotten it wrong

because they're not actual you know, investigators. There's people on on on social media or on the internet. And I also, I mean, I don't know how I how I felt about that that she she basically said that the reason why people are being so hard on these TikTokers is because they're mostly women, young women and girls, and that we don't like young women and girls, and so it's just sexist. And I thought it was an interesting sort of Devil's advocate position. I'm just not I was not

sure I agree. I just think that, like, it's unsavory, and I don't find it unsavory because it's women and girls doing it. I find it unsavory because it's not a good thing to be doing. I guess that was a pretty big reaction that I've been seeing online. Is TikTok correctice case, these internet sleuths were the one who ones who did it. It had a very similar air to I hate to be referencing a Netflix show in this specific situation, but it's terrifyingly accurate is the show

Don't Funk with Cats. It was this case of this woman who had zero experience, had no idea really what she was doing, but fell down this rabbit hole and ended up actually solving a very complicated, pretty much dead end series of murders. And that was very impressive, and it's kind of scary, because even that woman has come out and said, like, hey, this was purely coincidental. Please don't try to mimic what I was doing. Like I didn't know what I was doing. I could have gotten

really hurt. I could have accused the wrong person. This just happened to work out perfectly. And so it's really frustrating to see the people on TikTok who are now I don't want to say, taking credit, but are definitely patting themselves on the back for having cracked this case, in which, as far as I understand, at least when we're recording right now, what the case was is that the biggest piece of evidence they received help find this poor girl's remains a few days ago, just yesterday. Wow,

time is time is weird? I was just yesterday that she it. There was some like van life YouTubers who made very similar content to Gabby, who had seen all these stories online about how Gabby was missing and then realized they happened to be in the same National park as her roughly the same time, and they had a bunch of unedited raw footage from their trip that they

were going to put up on YouTube. So they scrubbed through all this unedited footage and realized that they actually found like a clear shot of what was Gabby's van, and they sent that to the FBI. They had posted online about it too. The FBI followed up on that, went back to the same exact spot, and that's end

how they ended up finding her remains. So that's one of those instances of like the the story being on social media and blowing up as big as it did, truly did help in that specific instance at least bring that tip to the proper authorities who were then able to look into it and identify what it actually happened. But there's that doesn't negate the insane amount of problems

that come with those same exact internet salutes. And it's truly frustrating to see the same people that two days ago were conspiring that Gabby was actually a serial killer um and that she was murdering other people and is now on the run, or another conspiracy I had seen is that she was just doing it all for attention, are now very quick to jump in the pool of people who magically cracked this case, and that's so ungodly frustrating.

I cannot put into words. How angry that makes me that the same exact people who were claiming she was doing it for attention are ready to say that they're the ones who found her remains. That's I mean, I can only imagine how frustrating that is. And yeah, the short list of completely baseless conspiracy theories I saw people saying on TikTok doing it for attention, she was killing people her I guess fiance or partner had to be guilty because he liked fight club. Another serial killer, who

are another serial killer might have been responsible. Like, I don't know that there's any kind of like link. Everybody's like, oh there's another you know, another couple was murdered around there. Maybe maybe it's the same person. You know. Just I feel like when you traffic in just like baseless conjecture to then be doing a bit of a victory laps,

it just seems very incongruous to me. Like I've I've seen the same thing that you're talking about, where people are now kind of like I don't want to say taking credit, but really being like wow, my videos just wildly speculating they really helped, And I'm not I'm not sure if that's the right takeaway here exactly. There's I don't want to name drop anybody on a podcast because I don't want this person receiving a ton of hate.

But there was one individual on TikTok who had made um over for a videos about Gabby in less than six days and was very quick to uh boost any of these random theories anytime through anybody through speculation her way, she would immediately boost it, make a video about it, and a lot of her videos we're getting hundreds of thousands of views. And she is now the impression I'm getting is she's like, we did it, guys, we got

Gabby justice. Now let's go after the next person, Like let's just keep going down the list of missing persons. And I was like, this is not a healthy way to go about like helping, Like there's nothing wrong with being like I want to help bring awareness to missing persons, especially kind of circling back how you said there are a lot of black, brown and Indigenous people that do

not get the same level of attention. That can be a really well intentioned attitude about how you present yourself online.

But you were very lucky about how this Gabby situation played out because like you said, with the Reddit situation, all these Boston bomber conspiracy theories that they had going on, it did not end well, and it's not unreasonable to assume that we could have a very similar situation on our hands if the Internet, through mob justice, vigilante justice, whatever you want to call it, starts to all jointly come to the conclusion that somebody who's potentially innocent in

a situation um is then so aggressively harassed online that they're possibly driven to do something unthinkable. Uh, it's it's rough to think about that that could happen, and how ready and how excited people, especially on TikTok are right now to do exactly that. Yeah, that's a really good reminder. And I think part of me, like the part of me that's interested in why humans do the things they do. I can understand why people almost seem excited too to

piece together what happened in this situation. It almost seems like it's like a puzzle or a game, like I can under and I can understand why it makes people feel very validated to be like, oh, we are crusading for justice for this this this young woman who is not here to fight for herself, Like all of that

feels very noble. So like, I want to be clear that I can really understand the reasoning behind why people get but why people act the way they do when it comes to this kind of thing, I really can. But I think that those kinds of feelings can be sort of intoxicating, and when you're when you're intoxicated on a feeling, when you when you feel like you are, you know, crusading for justice. I think that sometimes, you know, the bigger picture can get missed and you can sort

of like miss exactly what you're talking about. What happens if somebody is wrongly accused, what happens if you're actually making you know, an investigation work, Like what if you're actually impeding an investigation by whipping up so much social media frenzies. So I'm happy that in this case it seems like it might have gone okay, But I don't want that to make it seem like, oh, it's it's good to have a social media fueled you know, mob

justice style internet sleuth frenzy. It's always going to end up okay. Um, I feel like that's a really dangerous precedent exactly and especially talking about just like the possible implications of something going this viral. Uh, like the O. J. Simpson case that was one of the most iconic, high profile cases, and because it was covered on literally every inch of the every inch of the news, every magazine,

every newspaper, it was absolutely everywhere. Uh. That actually dramatically impacted how the courtroom played out, because how can you find a jury of impartial jurors when every single person has heard about this story and every single person has come to their own conclusion. So I can imagine that if I pray that Gabby finds justice and we figure out exactly what happened, and this potentially leads to somebody

being tried in court. Uh. The more viral this story is, and the more conspiracies that are popular, the harder it's going to be to find a group of twelve people that don't already have their own opinions. Absolutely, I have to show you something that. So I don't know what your Facebook feeds look like, but I know that mine has just been any little update on this case, a

new story. And so I'm I'm in Washington, d C. Right, I'm not anywhere near where this happened on my local Fox affiliate Fox five d C. I'm gonna show you this picture. I don't know if you can see it through the camera and the yeah, and the headline says, rainbow appears where authorities discovered body believed to be Gabby the Potito. A rainbow appeared in the area where authorities earlier Sunday discovered what they believe to be the body

of Gabby Potito and the Grand Titan National Park. And part of me just thought, like, it's very clear to me that any new angle they are going to get as much eyeballs and then they they they're gonna use this story to get as much eyeballs and clicks as possible, like if it's an actual update on the case, or an actual update in her disappearance or you know, something

like that. Sure, a part of people was like, who would, like, you're capital You're like writing an article about a rainbow appearing, making it like I just really had a problem with that story, And I was like, wow, they really are any new angle, they are wasting no time to make sure that gets in our feeds, because it's almost like they're it felt like they were feeding this like frenzy or this appetite for a new content about this case. And it didn't matter if it was actually a breaking update.

It didn't matter if it was actually like relevant to the case. Uh. Personally, I don't think a rainbow appearing in the sky is necessarily going to be relevant to this case or even like timely local information from my local news source here in d C. But the fact that they were like surfacing this to me, I was like, well, they really are just trying to have a steady stream of content related to this, not not just important breaking, you know, information about it, but just like anything like

here's what the weather was like when they found her body. M Yeah, that's that's a rough one. And that even marshes kind of back into the territory of a lot of people who say, how are these online internet sleuths who just report every five seconds on the newest update, whether it's true or not, any different than local news stations. And there is an argument to be had for like news stations tend to have this problem too. They tend

to milk stories for everything they're absolutely worth. But that criticism of them is out there and public, and maybe it's not getting enough attention and it's not getting enough people talking about it as it deserves. But that doesn't make the people online who don't even have remotely any professional experience in this free from that same amount of criticism to say like, oh, he did it too, is not get out of jail free card from you also being held liable for some of the content some random

person on the street might make. And I tend to get a lot of criticism in the game of like, hey, this isn't my day job. I'm just making endom videos on the internet. Why are you mad at me? And I totally get that. I'm somebody who makes random videos on the internet too. I didn't plan on having a quarter million followers. I still have a day job, and it's I get it. But if you're going to keep that platform, prepare for the criticism that's just that's what's

gonna come with it. Yeah. Right, that's such a good point. And I think like it reminds me of something else I learned from your video from your TikTok about this is that like sometimes particularly on YouTube, but I do know on TikTok as well. You know your TikTok can be monetized your YouTube can certainly be monetized. Part of me was like, is this just people kind of like making money off of someone else's trauma and someone else's

pain and someone else's tragedy. Like, you know, I can understand the incentive to like report on every little thing, be the first temple report on a breaking thing, no matter if it's true. You know, every little speculation, make a new video about it. If you are trying to you know, game of five to get more eyeballs because it leads to more money. I mean, that's definitely we know.

That is how some of these platforms were m hm, absolutely and uh comparing not to do this for a second, but to compare the amount of money that you can get between platforms, TikTok is one of the lowest paid social media platforms. So uh, as far as like raking in the cash, TikTok is not necessarily the best way to do it, of But that doesn't mean that you can't make money on TikTok. I am no longer monetizing

my content. But when I did have monetized content, anytime I broke a million views on a video, I could get anywhere from like fifty bucks depending on how many comments, how many likes, so many times it got shared. So if you go back to what I was saying, there was a girl with over forty videos and all them hundreds of thousands of views. You start doing the math

that can add up really quickly. And that's not to say that people's content doesn't have value and you shouldn't be paid for your work, but especially if you are being paid for your work, you should be held to hire criticism because now, hey, you're making money off of

this um. If you want to just report on exactly what happened, I can't fault you for doing that, and I'm not necessarily mad that you're making money, But as soon as you start getting into the conspiratorial, the speculative, the outright wrong information, then hey, I'm gonna remind you you're making money on this, you should probably try to be ethical about it. There was one girl in particular who she sends taking her video down, and she has apologized,

so we'll give her credit for that. The girl who popularized the theory that Gabby was actually a serial killer. Uh, that's horrifying and I cannot imagine her family seeing that. I feel bad even mentioning it on a podcast, but that that happened, they spread that conspiracy theory and she took her video down, but it's still all over Twitter. It got millions of views. She probably made a decent amount of money on that, And it's like, Okay, I

understand you're sorry. In hindsight, you feel bad, especially after they found her remains, but you still make money on that. It would be kind of nice if you donated, And I don't know, that's just me more after a quick break, let's get right back into it. I'm on this kick lately of like, if you have a platform, even if it's a platform where you're not expecting to go viral, maybe you don't have that many followers, and you just you say something and you're like, oh now I've gone viral.

Platforms common with responsibility, and like it is your responsibility to be a good steward of your platform and not just use it to spread baseless conspiracy theories typically that are that harmful to the family of someone who has gone missing. Like I just like, it's just completely irresponsible, exactly, and it's it's really said, and it kind of ties back into before this whole Gabby situation happened. Because I don't want to linger on that too much because it's

kind of a larger conversation about true crime. But I was making a couple of videos that, like you had said before, this had all happened a few months ago, talking about like just some terrible things in the true crime community I was finding on the Internet and kind of going back to like, oh, the Jeffrey Dahmer T shirts or um, like the serial killer merchandise, these coloring books. Um, these people are outright making money off of people's tragedies.

And I think that's a lot more black and white ethically irresponsible than somebody who's making content that kind of just talks about an active case in an active situation. Um. So I like criticizing them for how they make their money more because it's a lot more like, hey, maybe we shouldn't make a coloring book of a child predator. Yeah, I mean, I am just gonna say, if you're making

coloring books glorifying a child predator, you're an asshole. Like I'm going to say it should be illegal, but you're an asshole. There. The jury is, the jury is not still out if you're making if you're selling shirts that say cute see little slogans about Jeffrey Dahmer. You're not my kind of people. So completely agree with you there. And I do think it is much clearer, like if you're using your platform to make content about true crime

and and you're monetizing them. Okay, like I have questions, but all right, but it's so clear when you're like, oh yeah, I mass produce coloring books, I produced T shirts. It's it's such a clearer I'm glad that you compared the two because it's such a clearer example of like harm, I guess, like making money off of someone else's tragedy. Mhm.

So in your take, you know, if you are someone who wants to make true crime content or like just generally like content that raises awareness, how can you be sure that you're doing that in a way that it's respectable and ethical. So I think that was a question I had for myself for the longest time, especially because when I started putting out criticisms, it wasn't necessarily like the most poignant criticisms. It was honestly kind of me randling,

like this is kind of messed up. Why does this exist? And then I had a lot of people ask me like, oh, well, if this isn't ethical, what do you consider to be ethical? Is there a way to ethically consume or produce true crime content? So I've spent a ton of time mulling that over, and it's actually been kind of helpful because there have been various true crime creators who have reached out to me and been like, hey, I've seen your content. I one percent agree with you. I don't like that

kind of stuff either. I'm trying to change it. Can I get your support? And I've been very hesitant to boost any one specific true crime content creator on my own platform, but I have seen people who I think are doing it in a slightly better way. I've seen a lot of like the most common form of true

crime content is through a podcast. We've got things like My Favorite Murder Last podcast and left all those incredibly popular podcasts, and there's a lot of smaller ones out there that right now that are really trying to break through that folk entirely on victim advocacy. They talk about police reform, they talk about prison reform, like they're truly not just talking about like, hey, it's crazy how Jeffrey Dahmer like murdered a bunch of people a couple of

decades ago. That's not the entire episode they're talking about. Hey, um, Jeffrey Dahmer did murder a lot of people a few decades ago. Let's talk about, um, why that happened, what failings happened with the police, and why none of that has changed yet, and why Milwaukee really needs to get

their stuff together. And I think that angle of the content of what systemically allowed this to happen, what created this environment where these things occurred, and what is still occurring in our society today, and how can we fundamentally change things so that these things do not continue. I think is some of the best true time content out there, and I think it does have a genuine aim to produce change. So I genuinely love that kind of content.

And I have overwhelmingly seen that content is predominantly produced people of color because they have that much more detailed,

in depth perspective. So pretty much any true kind of content creator within reason who is a person of color, I've immediately felt a stronger attraction to the content they make because they tend to have that heavier focus on that aspect, I am so glad that you said that, because, you know, when thinking about it, I know that I'm not a huge consumer of true crime, But the content that I do consume, I think it's got to be content that is comfortable critiquing systems and particually systems of

power and asking questions about how these systems fail victims and survivors. I know that so many true crime podcasts will just repeat what police officers say, or just repeat police reports verbatim, and it can kind of become this kind of copaganda where they're just like, oh, well the

police said this, so that's got to be true. And I think good true crime content really has this opportunity to not just take the police at their word, not just take these systems at their word, but instead critique these systems and ask questions about how they really do fail victims and survivors every day. And so I want to be asking questions like what systems worked to fail Gabby and all the other missing and murdered women and girls out there, Like how are we supporting victims and

survivors of domestic abuse and violence? How are we making sure that they're protected and actually do have support. Are we creating a climate that leads to folks like this to be more vulnerable in these kinds of situations, Like I want to know what systems failed these victims and survivors of violence and crime so that it's not repeated and we can actually learn something to make systemic change that leads to less tragedy and less harm over all, exactly.

And I think another aspect from the racial issue that I think doesn't get highlighted enough, um at least in the white spaces that I tend to find myself in a lot, is that, uh, content creators that tend to have an incredibly heavy focus on white victims is something that needs to be seriously reevaluated, especially when we're talking

about like national news coverage. I know that a lot of people will make the argument that in gabby situation, she was a social media influencer, so that had a bit of an effect on how discussed her situation was, but we cannot ignore the fact that people of color, men or LGBT individuals do not get this kind of coverage, People who aren't conventionally attractive do not give this kind of coverage, and podcasts that go out of their way

to highlight instances like that, or just not necessarily podcast, but content in general that goes out of the way to highlight those who are less likely to get coverage in the first place. I hate to say it, but just about everybody knows about Jeffrey Dahmer, every just about everybody knows about Ted Bundy. They might not know the

finer specifics. But is it necessarily worth your time to go into that kind of content over a ten part series when you could be spending that time possibly talking about an active missing person who could really use a bolster invoice and a fresh reminder to their local place department that people still care and people are still watching, and just giving the facts of what's up, making sure of people are where like hey, this is the individual,

looks like this is where they were last seen. Would be really awesome if people didn't forget that this is still a problem because those marginalized individuals never get that kind of attention. Oh absolutely, And actually, you know, I've seen recently folks making that criticism of the Gabby Potito case, and so I've seen a lot of true crime contact creators sort of I will I will say, like trying

to respond to that. So they'll they'll be talking about Gabby's case and then be like, Oh, that's similar to this other case but then involved a person of color or a you know, a non white victim or an LGBTQ person, and I I'm I'm here for it, Like I like, if you have a platform and that you can use to get the word out about these cases that are not getting as much attention, I think that's great. But I can't help but wonder, like why weren't we

doing it all along? Like why did it take that nudge of like you know, there are there were seven hundred and ten you know, missing and missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls in that same area talk about them as well. Like I'm happy that folks are boosting this because I think I think, you know, it could it could really like revive interest, you know, But I just have to ask, like why did it Perhaps we

should be interrogating why it took a nudge? Why it took that that kind of that kind of line being sort of like in the consciousness of how we how we're talking about this case to make that to have folks that are making true prime content start generating awareness about these other kinds of cases exactly. And I do very pessimistically, kind of fully expect that once the coverage of Gabby kind of dies down, that this conversation might die.

And anybody who's willing to keep that conversation going and not letting people forget well, I think that is the biggest uphill battle. I think is absolutely noble. Like I hate that, uh a woman had to be put in that situation and had to get the national coverage she did to get people to talk about it again. Um, But there have been people of color talking about this the whole time, and nobody was ever listening to them.

And it's so frustrating that the only time they get the microphone, even if it's for a short period of time, is when something tragic and horrific happens to a white woman like nobody nobody deserves to happen. Nobody deserves to have happened to them what happened to Gabby, um. And it's frustrating that the consequence of that is this is the only time that people who have been focusing on that issue this whole time finally get to speak because they will be immediately shot down as a why are

you making this about race? And it's like I, it's It's been about race this whole time. I've been talking about this whole time. A white woman passing away tragically doesn't change what I've been saying. Jessica, I thank you so much for your work and your perspective. Like I wasn't really sure what to expect from our conversation because I just had a lot of thoughts and like feelings

and having trouble this even like processing them. But you know, I find that your work really helps me articulate my own thoughts and helps me process, you know, in highly charged times, helps me like process and reconnect to like what I'm actually thinking. So thank you for your work. Where can folks follow you? And what are you working on these days? So right now I have a Hodge

Project content. I still do make a lot of trafficking awareness videos, and I talked a lot about the tracking misinformation that is on my TikTok at blood bath and beyond, and then that is my handle on all other socials. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi, You can be us at Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangodi dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod.

It's a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strictland as our executive producer, Tara Harrison as our producer, and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, check out the I Heart Made You app Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. M