Evan Rachel Wood’s abuse by Marylin Manson is a tech issue - STUFF MOM NEVER TOLD YOU

Now the allegations are truly horrific, and Evan rachel Wood says that Warner sexually assaulted her during a taping for the music video for his song Heart Shaped Glasses. Now, I joined my friends Sam and Annie over at the podcast stuff. Mom never told you to talk through why this is actually a technology and platform accountability issue. Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I don't come to Stephane.

Never told your protection of I Heart Radio And today we are thrilled to once again be joined by the amazing, fantastic Bridget Todd. Hi, Bridget, thanks for joining us. Oh, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me. Always such a pleasure to be joining you ladies. An happy belated birth Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I had a birthday. I almost kind of forgot because it happened in a weird time, but thank you. You were in the middle of your travels, right, Yeah. I was in Austin, Texas

for south By Southwest. It's not a bad place to spend your birthday, but it kind of happened very quickly, and I kind of forgot about it. I was getting on the plane to go back home and the person who checked my idea was like, oh, happy belated birthday, and I said, oh, that's right, I did not have a birthday. Thank you. Yeah. I think someone recently asked me how how old I was, and I like paused to think about it. Um, get back to you on that.

But yeah, how was your south By Southwest experience? It was good and it was interesting. You know, it was the first time they had done it since COVID. It was cool. I have to shout out the fact that probably every other panel or like talk, like speech or talk that I saw was a trans person or a non binary person really speaking out against some of the like horrific legislation we've seen in Texas. And there were lots of women speaking out about like the horrible abortion

legislation in Texas. So even though it felt a little bit strange to be in Texas, I was I left so empowered and engaged and like leaned into the fight to um, you know, really create change. And so I have to really shout out a lot of you know, abortion advocates, trans advocates that I'm sure being in Texas was like tough for them, but I really have to shout out how incredible it was for them to make space to open up conversations about legislation that is harming

their community. So it was good. Yeah, I love that because I know, like it's kind of so difficult to be in an area where it's so toxic to you as a person, as a human being going through your life and then feeling like, yeah, you know what, I can't leave because I have to fight this. There's just that double whammy. But that is amazing to hear that such an event, which is an international event, was able

to push forward that conversation. Absolutely. I mean, I really think, like shout out to all of those people who I don't even say I'm not even like, I think they took the space for themselves, and I think that was the right thing to do. Yeah, awesome, that's that's amazing. And we were discussing before this one. Um, this is a topic that is so important that you brought to today.

It's a bit of a downer, but it's incredibly important and and I think like we're going to have a lot of there's a lot of nuance with this that I appreciate that you brought to it. So what did you bring for us to discuss today, Bridget Yeah, as you said, it's a little bit of a rough topic. So you know we're gonna be talking about sexual assault and you know, domestic violence and abuse, so just know that going forward. So you know my podcast, there are

no girls on the Internet. It's really all about the ways that issues that maybe don't seem like tech issues, issues that impact women and other traditionally marginalized people. You know, they might not be seen as tech issues, but they're very much tech issues. And today's topic, I think is a really great example of what I mean. So today I want to talk about the platform YouTube and their failure to remove a video of actor and activist Evan

rachel would being sexually assaulted. So it is really important to me, you know, as someone who makes a tech podcast and cares about technology and works in technology to talk about this and especially frame it not as kind of a quote celebrity story, which I seen it really framed as, or even worse as a quote he said, she said, which is obviously not correct because that kind of framing, I think really lets tech companies that are

involved off the hook. I'm sure these tech companies like YouTube would love it if this story was not framed as a tech accountability story and it was just a sort of, you know, celebrity story. But unfortunately for them, that's I'm not framing it that way. I am framing it as a tech accountability story because that's what I

believe that it is. That's amazing because we literally were just talking about an episode which came out when which TikTok I talked about the fact that are allowing these really bad, like really misogynistic jokes about killing women on dates essentially and allowing it saying it's not violating anything, is just a joke, and it's kind of like, wait, where's the accountability. No, you are allowing this rhetoric that people are just latching onto, which is so toxic and

harmful and dangerous for women in general. So we need to have a conversation about why you are accountable for these things. But I digress, because let's hear about exactly what we're talking about, especially with Van rachel Wood. I think I know a little bit about it, but if you can just kind of go into that absolutely, So

here's what's happening with Evan rachel Wood. Basically would have spent a few years now advocating for survivors of sexual violence and abuse, and when she's done this, she's often referenced her own you know heretofore unnamed abuser, but on February one, would publicly named her abuser. In a message on Instagram. She wrote, the name of my abuser is Brian Warner, also known to the world as Marilyn Manson. He started grooming me as a teenager and horrifically abused

me for years. I am here to expose this dangerous man and call out the many industries that have enabled

him before he ruins any more lives. And so a quick note for people who are listening, you will probably be more familiar with Brian Warner as his stage name as a musician Marilyn Manson, but I am not going to call him Marilyn Manson in this episode, and I have basically stopped calling him Marilyn Manson in general, because I think it adds to this mythology that Brian Warner has created around himself, and I believe that he has

exploited that mythology to continue to abuse women. I'll talk a little bit more about what I mean later in the episode, but when I say Warner Brian Warner, I'm referring to the musician whose stage name is Marilyn Manson, whose actual name is Brian Warner. And Evan rachel Wood is not alone. Several women, including women who are not famous and don't have a public profile like she does,

have made similar claims against Warner. So far, sixteen women have accused Warner of sexual abuse, and four have sued him for sexual assault. So, you know, I said earlier that people were mistakenly framing it as he said she said, so even though that framing is not correct, Even if that is how you were framing it, it wouldn't really be a he said, she said. It would be more like a he said, She said, She said, she said, she said, you know sixteen times. Ye, at the very

least exactly. I mean, like who, like who even knows you know, this is what we know about. That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah, And I remember when this came out and when it first came out this kind of news, but it's recently I saw it come up again that Warner is kind of pursuing a legal a legal battle of his own against her. So can you go into more like what is going on right now? Right? So this you know, we were talking about this when Evan rachel Would first named Warner as her abuser back

in one. But the reason why we're talking about it right now is because Evan Rachel would just released a new documentary which you can watch on HBO Max, the two part documentary called Phoenix Rising that really chronicles her story. As you might imagine, it is a difficult watch. I watched the first part of it and I had to take a break from the second part, which was watching last night, because it's a little I mean, as you might imagine, it's not the easiest watch. So just if

you're planning on a watch it, just know that. So the movie, it's it's interesting in that it starts ostensibly as a kind of Aaron Brockovich style story chronicling would successful campaign to pass the Phoenix Act, which is an legislation that extends the Statute of Limitations on domestic by

us in California. But during filming, when Would publicly names Warner as her own abuser, the film begins to follow that aftermath, and so the documentary really chronicles her upbringing her her work to become a you know, survivor advocate and domestic domestic abuse advocate, you know, trying to pass this legislation, and then kind of pivots when we see her publicly name Warner as this person who had abused her that she had been referencing as her abuser for

so long in network. And I know when we were originally seeing all of this come out, because I remember seeing her testify before the name was coming out, and found the Senate trying to talk about the Statute of limitations and going into this whole conversation. And how quickly after the fact she shown herself as the survivor advocate and she named him, how many people came behind her like,

oh my god. This is why this is familiar as well as the fact, when she described some of the events that happened to her, many women already came out because they had gone through some similar things, um including how they met. So can you kind of talk about their relationship specifically Warner in Woods, I really like how you have framed that because I think that in her situation, so many other women spoke up and said, this was

exactly what happened with me. He did this to me, you know her her sit and I also think just her situation is really familiar to me. And I think anybody who is dealt with domestic violence or sexual abuse by an intimate partner, the way that he operated in the beginning might be kind of familiar. So Wooden Warner met at a party at Chateau Mormant when she was eighteen and he was thirty seven. They maintained that tonic friendship where Warner would talk to her about things like

her favorite books and her favorite artists. Then the two started to date. Now she describes this as a kind of grooming and love bombing situation where you know, early on he was referring to her as his soulmate and really was making her feel like he was the only one who really got her, really loved her. Early on, she describes him kind of starting to isolate her from her friends and family, and that was the beginning stages

of their early romantic relationship. And so at this point, you know, you might be thinking, you know, why would someone like Evan Rachel would get involved romantically with someone like Warner who was known for these shocking, kind of gross antics on stage. And that kind of really goes back to why I'm not going to call him quote Marilyn Manson, And I think that big part of that is because Warner's public persona as Marilyn Manson, really helped

him get away with gross abusive behavior in public. So if you were a young person like me in the nineties, you might remember that after the Columbine school shooting in nineteen Warner was legitimately unfairly blamed for the deaths of fifteen young people after it was misreported that the Columbine shooters were big fans of his music and that his

music motivated them in the shooting. You know, at this time, politicians were lobbying to have his performances banned, citing these really over the top, exaggerated, outlandish, untrue claims things like at his shows, that he would have the security guards spiked the drinking water at the shows and give it to young kids in the audience, or that he was engaging in bestiality on stage, or like ripping apart animals.

Warner's legal team actually sent the American Family Association a cease and desist for saying that he encouraged kids to engage in violent sexual acts from the stage in the audience. And so none of that was true, and Warner countered these legit unearned, unfair responses to the threat that his music posts to kids by doing these sort of the very thoughtful, measured interviews where he was able to portray himself indirect opposition to this outlandish onstage persona that these

politicians and conservative figures were sort of demonizing. And so as he was being demonized by these people and sort of you know, them making up these outlandish exaggerations and claims about him, he was able to really present himself

as this measured, thoughtful, reasonable person. And one interview that release sticks out to me if anyone has seen the documentary Michael Morris Bowling for Columbun there's a sit down segment with Marilyn Manson where he says things like, oh, the young people who perpetrated the Columbine shooting would have been safer had they purchased my cd s, you know, rather than buying guns, and so he can remember specifically, he comes off as this very thoughtful, measured, nuanced guy,

and it really created this, um, I don't know, this sort of portrayal of him as someone who was being unfairly maligned, and thus some of his other behavior was really able to go unscrutinized because it was so clear he was being unfairly demonized for this behavior that he never actually engaged in, like he wasn't actually spiking the drinking water at his shows and having sexts with animals

on stage right. And I know we're going to get into this more later because I have a lot of thoughts about all of this, and as I said, you do such a great job of like there are a

lot of nuances to this conversation. But I remember I listened to Marilyn Manson when I was really young, and I had a friend who was her parents really conservative, and they know jokes, showed up at my mom's house and yelled at my mom for letting their daughter listen to it, and it became such a point of It's like, it didn't have to become this point, but it became such a point of like, oh, you, you conservatives don't

get it. You're trying to like hold me down and you don't understand, and like, I feel so outcast son, you'll never get it, and it they're kind of outrage made it into a bigger thing than it would have been if they had never said anything. Oh my gosh, I have the same exact experience, right, So I was a kid, I was in junior high. I'd just say, hey, damn, I'll say and you know, I was like an ALTI I wouldn't say I was like a goth kid, but I was saying very alt. And I totally had the

same experience. I ate up this idea that he was being unfairly persecuted, and I, you know, I felt like I was being unfairly persecuted as this like weirdo ALTI kid as a junior high student. Never mind the fact that like that wasn't actually necessarily happening. That's just like how I felt because I was a teenager, and I think he really really used that exact thing as a way to avoid accountability for his other behavior, and I

honestly I agree with you. You know, I listened to Warner's music a lot as a youth, and I really really liked him. Like at a poster a Marilyn Manson poster in my locker next to a Prodigy poster Prodigy, and I think that, like, I listened to all different kinds of music, but the only music that had this kind of over the top, exaggerated, like uh climate around it was Marilyn Manson, and so that fed into the idea that he was being unfairly persecuted at the time.

You know, I don't know if people remember what it was like to be a young person after Columbine, if you were like a little all tea or if you were all black, it did kind of feel like, you know, the powers that be were cracking down on who you

were in the aftermath of that shooting. And so I think that had there not have been such a backlash to the music Warner's music when it has been another in a mixed bag of stuff that I liked, you know, I liked Prodigy, I like Somepice girls, I like so many different things, but because of this over the top response to his music, it pushed me that much further into this kind end of I don't know, dangerous vibe where he gets to position himself that's unfairly persecuted at

anybody who doesn't like him or his behavior is just you know, doesn't get it and doesn't get you edny seen treating I like it. Well, I will say I was older than you. Also, I'm like, yeah, I wasn't. Okay, everyone, we're not going to the time frame of this, but I do find that interesting that we have this conversation because absolutely remembering all of the politicians coming in and saying this is this kind of that whole time frame around the matrix as well as video games and blaming

all of these things. Uh, but also how they like to over demonize kind of like how it's happening with Q and on and when we talked about sex trafficking, and that they are doing so much theatrical things that that made no sense, that it's overshadowing the actual problems that are happening and therefore exactly like taking attention away from the true crimes or the things that are so horribly wrong because it is being overshadowed by the caricature

of accusations merely for a platform, merely for politics, and it's so obnoxious because yeah, because of that, Marilyn Manson got this credibility for being um misunderstood a as you had already said. And then also he's able to use that now as a part of his defense today. But I know we're gonna be able to talk about that

in a minute, absolutely, I mean. And then also, like what you just said, isn't it interesting how the American Family Association and all these politicians we're trying to banish shows we never did much about guns though. That was just like we we had the conversation about violent video games, the Matrix, black clothing, trench coats, Bran Warner, but not the guns. So it's exactly what you just said of kind of an intense overreach that reaches to the wrong cause,

I guess. And then let's the real cause just go on analyzed. Yeah, and I think that, Um, something that's been on our minds a lot lately is this idea of consent and how our environment is really set up where true consent for women is almost impossible and this situation being such a grooming situation where you have this person coming in who is much older and who was

showing you with attention. And I was saying recently on an episode, like I'm ashamed to admit it, but I shouldn't be because I was raised to be this way. But like when I was eighteen and people can't call me, I'd be like flattered, It's be good. Oh my gosh, I have desirability. That means I have value, um, and that put me in some unsafe situations. So this I

hate this. I hate that she was young and there was this older person that she respected and she was getting this attention and it's just absolutely predatory, absolutely praying on her. Yeah, I mean I can really identify. I'll just say that. And it's one of those things where you don't necessarily realize until you're older. And I mean it applies in this situation too. I want to I want to be careful about how I speak about this

because it is part of the conversation. But when Evan Rachel Wood was in a relationship with Marilyn Manson early on, and keep in mind she's eighteen, she's very young. I remember very clearly her an interview saying like, oh, people need to stop saying that I'm being taken advantage of or groomed. And I think it's easy for people to say, like, oh, well, now we're supposed to believe her when she says that she's being that she was being groomed or commerced. Well,

she was eighteen when that happened. She was eighteen when they met. Like, you're so young, and so it's completely tracked with my own personal experiences that you might not have the world experience or just the life experience, or you know, your own understanding of your place in the

world at eighteen. It might take a few years for you to look back on that and say, hey, I was being coerced, or hey, you know I was being groomed, or hey, something's happened that shouldn't have happened, and I didn't have the language or the voice yet to say I don't want this to happen. And I think that's one of the reasons why this story is one that needs to be told, because I think that's all of us. I think that's so many of our stories. It's so common.

I think it's completely unfair to use that as a reason to not support survivors, not listen to survivors, because it is so common. I think that big portion of this conversation is that the early sexualization of young girls point blank is part of this problem because I know

a lot of this conversation. When Evan Rachel Woods came out in her acting career, she was thirteen fourteen and came out with this big indie film that pretty much talked about young women growing older real quick, trying to survive, and thinking the way to survive is to be sexual and grown like that was the whole basis of the movie,

which has the whole conversation in itself. But because of that, because of things like that, that's where she came into the eighteen year old and no one, no one listening to the fact that this is grooming, like I don't care if she's legal now, which is which is a bullsh term. The whole barely legal books that I really want to push everybody in the face every time they

say it. That's that conversation is really sexualizing these young girls and telling them they are of more worth because they're acting grown, because they are finally in their way of being a woman and finding out and not having the support and understanding or people even letting her know the whole concept of consent and why that is a big conversation that needed to be had way back when, and because of that feeling trapped because she is being told,

this is what you put yourself in. You knew what you were getting into, which is the formula of all of the victim blaming which we see today that has not gone away that for some reason is used by everyone, not just men, women all between, because it's so hard to let go of that internalized misogyny of saying, but you knew absolutely, And she explicitly says that in some of the things that experiences that happened to her that we'll talk about in a moment, like she explicitly says

exactly what you're referencing that you know, she had internalized that she was meant to just go along with whatever, and that was that was like what she was supposed

to do. And that is something that I think that we all internalized and we have to sort of like, I know that I have a lot of un learning to do around you know, at like saying no when something doesn't feel right, or when you know, And for me it has been a lifelong process, and so it sounds like for her she had to learn that as well. And as you said, I mean, it starts so early,

and eighteen really is so young. You know. She talks about how when she first met Brian Warner, she said that she really liked him at what he stood for, and she wrote in his in her journal that she thought that he was the hero and the spokesperson of misfits, and I it just really does sound like he did a very a job of making her feel like that was true, that she maybe felt like a misfit, and that he was an advocate for people who felt like they didn't belong, and that he really used that persona

to continue to abuse women and girls pretty much in public. There's this great piece in the Atlantic that sums it up nicely called Marilyn Manson told us what he was. It sums it up very nicely. They right, if we believe would And more than a dozen women who have accused Manson of abuse. Then a strange twist is that the aftermath of Columbine seems to have enabled Manson to become what Would's brother describes in the documentary as quote

a wolf and wolf's clothing. The hysterical invented accusations leveled at Manson then that he molested children on stage, killed animals, had a security guards, drug underaged fans with liquid ecstasy, minimized other things that might have been happening in plain sight. But they also allowed Manson to detach his artistic persona from himself and allowed others to infer that anything offensive he did was just perform him art winking commentary on

America's hypocritical and a moral core. And that to me really sums up why I'm not comfortable calling him quote Marilyn Manson, because you know, inventing this persona and saying that its performance art should not be a way to avoid and excuse accountability for your own abusive behavior. And I believe that's what the Marilyn Manson persona has allowed him to do. Hello, Kanye West, exactly, exactly, thank you.

I mean, it's all it's all part of the same, like the abusive ball of yarn right genius artistic like it's I can talk all day about this, but it's all like two sides of the same messed up coin. Well, That's what I'm referencing that Kanye literally is hiding a little bit behind Brian Warner about bringing him on stage and putting him as like he's an ally because we're

the same, and you're like, yeah, you are. That should tell you something, Yeah, I like, I remember, I had I had forgotten until you just mentioned that he brought him up on stage during his Easis tour, And you know, I think it was meant to be like all of these malign people who don't understand our genius. And it's like, you're right, I don't understand your genius. I think it's abusive, yes, yes, And I think you're hiding behind that to get away

with it. And that's problem exactly, exactly exactly, this is his thing. And in interviews, Warner pretty much is open and in public about some of the abusive behavior that

he has put Wood through. You know, he's hot. In a pretty notorious Spin interview, he talks about how he fantasized about smashing her head with a sledgehammer, or how after they broke up and she stopped taking his calls that every time I called her that day and I called her a hundred and fifty eight times I took a razor blade and cut myself on my face and on my hands. But then later he is able to say, oh, well, I didn't really mean those things, or I didn't really

feel those things. I didn't actually do those things. I was just playing a character. And I believe that that excuse allows him to skirt accountability for his actual behavior. As Brian Warner, you can't say that that was just me playing a rock and roll character who was Marilyn Manson when you have an actual partner who was accusing

you of abusing her. Yeah, And it's really terrifying because we're also seeing this in politics form, seeing politicians being like, oh, that was just a joke and you didn't get it right, like doing that same sort of thing, and that's been

that's been really damaging. And also I again, I grew up listening to a lot of like punk rock and email of the like two thousands early two thousands, and we were just talking about this, like the lot of the lyrics and that, which is a lot of men singing about like pretty much hating women, um and blaming them for their sort of violent actions. And then and also the TikTok thing you were talking about. Man, it's

the same thing. We're seeing it again, like being like, no, I mean that's just that's just who I am, that's my that's how expressed myself. You took it too seriously. Yeah, I mean I completely agree. And maybe it's because I'm older now I'm going back and thinking like, wow, I was listening to music that was like there's this brand new song where he's like, have another drink and drive

yourself home. I hope there's ice on all the rooms, and it's like that's pretty like like I was like a very young person screaming along to lyrics that were pretty dark. And you know, I'm someone who like I love I love music, and I think people should listen to what moves them, but we should also be a little critical about whether like what that what that was,

and and if that was okay. There's actually a TikTok er I can't remember her name off off the top of my head, but she goes back and replays kind of like scream oh punk bands from or you know, from that era, and unpacks the way that they are really unfair to women, and it's like, wow, I had no idea that I was basically singing along happily for

an anthem that's about disrespecting women. And I'm a woman, you know, right, I mean and Andy and I've been talking about this for a lot while about the romanticizing of abuse, as if it's something like that that should be a part of your relationship and not understanding this is really not good that these like the constant phone calls not great, the the I'm gonna kill myself if you don't love me back, like this whole level of like,

oh my god, what is happening? And we've allowed that to be because somehow we've allowed that to be romanticized in our head. It's this is true love, right, like, this is what it means to be in love, to

want to die if we're not together. And then going beyond that for men and be like, if I really want you have to show you my power, and my power mats me hurting you maybe or someone else for sure, in order to show you that I am the man who can protect you quote unquote in so many different ways, and like kind of this whole other trope that we've allowed to be. Yeah, that's just men being men. This

is this is normal. This is good, right, and no one really questioning until after the fact of realizing, oh my god, there's so much trauma here. Why did we think this was okay? Yeah, I completely agree, and we should really be asking the question about what we depict

as romantic. And I think something that you said I can't stop thinking about is that it starts so young, Like how many of you all remember when if you're a girl and then maybe I got a guy when you were a kid pushes you on the playground, and some adults somewhere it's like, well, it's probably because he likes you that, like, you know, like we should not be it happened so early that we make it okay when quote unquote affection or love is actually abuse, and

I should really be asking questions about it. Honestly. I just one of my go to comfort movies that I kind of tease about all the times of Rather Tui and recently, like there's a scene in and I was like, oh my god, why did we allow this? In which the rat comes through the roof and do you see a couple of fighting with a gun. It goes off and he's like, oh my god, goes back and they're kissing and making out and he just he just laughs and shrugs and walks off, And I'm like, is that okay?

This is this wait, like we're not even gonna talk about how people are really upset about periods, but this is okay. This scene has made in But you know, like this is that level of like it literally was just a blip in the screen of a very g rated movie and it's romanticizes like, oh but they just love each other. That's just one of those one one more couple like that. Yeah, you know how you know how marriage is, how you have to argue, get the gun later you're kissing, you know, a gun, you forget

about it. Everything is fine. But that's the thing is, like what are we teaching? I mean, I don't want to be one of those people like this movie teaching, but like that is it's it's become so normalized in these conversations that women really truly a girl, young girls really truly think this is the epitome of being a woman.

This is the epitome of being in a relationship. Tough times means he hits me, but I forgive him, Like that's that conversation until you realize, oh my God, I couldn't see it until I left, and until I figured out talking to other women how it was not just him loving me, that this is him controlling women in general, exactly exactly that. Yeah, gosh, I feel like we could go. I we need a venting session, we need a podcast, because I'm like, yeah, let's talk about what we're not

allowing for consent and all this stuff. So I know we're not going to go too deep into this, but could you go kind of briefly into what would says about what Warner put her through? Yeah, the list of abuses that he put her through are truly horrifying. I honestly don't want to like. This is why I couldn't finish the documentary because it's a lot, so I don't want to spend too much time on it because they

really are sickening. But among them are the allegations that Warner, who would says, collected Nazi memorabilia, so just a really great guy, would whip her with a Nazi whip, and would her mother is Jewish and she was raised Jewish herself, and so this is obviously really messed up. She said that he also deprived her of sleep, forced her to drink his blood in a blood pack where he also drank hers, raped her while she was sleeping, forced her to take drugs, and a lot more of the abuse.

She says, I felt my brain changed. I felt it almost calcified. And the world is never the same. And it's just the list of And I should also say that the kinds of things that she says that he put her through, other women who also dated him say the same thing, and so it's a lot of it's a lot of the same kind of off Like other women that she talks to have said that he branded her or like carved things into their body like it's it's it's horrifying allegations, and so I should mention that

Warner he denies these allegations, and he says that what has been contacting and coercing women into saying they were abused by him. He is currently suing Would and Her Phoenix Rising contributor Il mcgore. According to Time, he's accusing the women of a quote conspiracy in service of which they supposedly quote secretly recruited, coordinated, and pressured perspective accusers

to emerge simultaneously with allegations of rape and abuse against Warner. Yeah, I find it interesting that we have like sixteen women at least coming out at the same time, and we're as a society it seems so much more ready to be like, but there's this video of her at eighteen saying she was into it, right, So that's all lies.

She manufactured this whole thing, and he is down it out and once again the one that is getting unwarranted exactly intention Women don't make this kind of stuff up, this idea that they would be simultaneously trying to come together to come up with these lies about him. Why, like, who who would do that? Who would want the kind of scrutiny that comes with being a public survivor of this kind of abuse? Who would welcome that into their lives?

Some of these women are also, you know, not public figures. People don't make this kind of thing up, Like it is so rare for people to make up allegations of this kind of abuse that it just let alone sixteen different people, it's like it just it just doesn't cold water. It's like, isn't the way it works? And again, probably more than sixteen that's coming out, But the conversation is too that the actual events and abuse were so similar to each other. Even the game of throws actress up

like as may Bianca, I think it's her name. She had so their stories towards like being deprived of food, being electrocute, like there's so many things. It's like, this is beyond just maybees. And I do remember that he had one partner who actually was like that didn't happen to me, and people lashed onto that story so hard, and it was kind of like, but that doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean It just negates the entirety of the story of who he is at this point in time.

And I can't stand this because it also comes back to the point of demonizing these women and shaming them in every way possible, taking any work of art that they did so as actors who may have portrayed a nude scene at any point in time. So she's a slut, how do you she want? Obviously she knew what she

was getting into. This whole level of conversations where they just completely try to discredit someone based on this and really feeling like, obviously these women are doing it for attention when it actually hurt a lot of their careers. Evan Rachel was for a long time out of so many things, out of projects because of the trauma alone. Yeah, so he did have a ex partner say he was

always nice to me. And I'm not going to discount what she's saying, but as we know, you know, someone being nice to you doesn't mean that they are never abusive to other people. And so people absolutely latched onto that. And you're absolutely right that it certainly has not helped the careers or the trajectories of the people who are speaking out. And it's just like, that's not how it works, Like people don't lie about this kind of thing. It

does not help. It hurt Evan Rachel would to come out, She risked a lot to come out, and this idea that, oh, they're doing it for attention, who would want this kind of attention? Right? Right? And also, let's talk about the side that Warner is not in jail exactly. He was on a damn Kanye West show, I I Hate It, I Need It. So you might be wondering, well, okay,

in what way is this a tech issue? And so there is one specific incident in the abuse that would talks about that I want to focus on, right now, and that is the music video for Warners song heart

Shaped Glasses. That music video features Evan Rachel Wood. She was in that video when she was nineteen years old, and he kind of casts her as a modern day Lolita because apparently the story goes that she was wearing these heart shaped sunglasses at the party where they met, and in you know, Lolita wears heart shaped sunglasses in the book, and so in the documentary, Wood says, of the music video, we were doing things that were not

what was pitched to me. We had discussed a simulated sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he started penetrating me for real. And she goes on to say it was a really traumatizing experience filming the video. I didn't know how to advocate for myself or how to say no because I had been conditioned and trained to never talk back to just soldier through I felt disgusting, like I had done something shameful, and I could tell the crew was very uncomfortable and nobody knew what to do.

I was coerced into a commercial sex act under false pretenses. That was the first crime committed against me, and I was essentially raped on camera and so according to Wood, the music video for Heart Shaped Classes is actually a video of her rape, and that video is available, not to mention, monetized on the platform YouTube as we speak. Anybody who wants to go see it can look it up.

And so Warner's campus they deny these allegations, and they say that Wood was coherent and involved in the planning of the video. They say, of all the false claims that Rachel Evan Wood is made about Brian Warner, her imaginative retelling of the making of the Heart Shaped Classes music video fifteen years ago is the most brazen and easy to disprove because there are multiple witnesses. So they

maintain that the scenes in that video were actually simulated. However, Rolling Stone spoke to a crew member from the video shoot under the condition of anonymity, who corroborated Wood's claims, saying, I do believe that there were some moments of actual intercourse and so that for me is really how this becomes a tech issue and a tech accountability issue, is that, according to Would, YouTube is promoted housing and monetizing a video of where she says she was being sexually assaulted,

and frankly, I'm inclined to believe her. And so the question is what is YouTube going to do about this? Are they going to just allow a video of a sexual assault to be on their platform and continue to profit off of it. I would say if that's the choice they're making, it's pretty questionable. Yeah, I'm afraid to ask what they're making. I you know, YouTube they quickly took the video down and then they made a donation

to anti rape organizations. Oh wait, just kidding. They do anything that they they basically so there's a change that Art petition with overt signatures calling for YouTube to remove the video, and Evan Rachel would share this petition and they pretty much have signaled that they're not going to take it down. Their spokesperson, Jack Malone says, we're monitoring the situation closely, and we'll take appropriate action if we determine there's a breach of our creator responsibility, Guy Lanes.

And so this is really why I see this as a tech accountability issue. You know, YouTube, like most online platforms, have community guidelines that users have to follow, and according to those community guidelines, content that includes quote non consensual sex acts and unwanted sexualization is very much against their

own stated community guidelines. The community guidelines in terms of service says that a user can have monetization suspended or have their entire channel terminated if their behavior away from the platform harms YouTube users. And so to me, it seems pretty clear they have publicly stated that their community guidelines prevent non consensual sex acts or unwanted sexualization in

their content. And here we have a video where Evan rachel Wood says this is exactly that, and yet they're continuing to host this video and profit off of it because we know that's how YouTube makes their money. It's from advertisements that are on the content hosted on their platform. And so yeah, I think that YouTube is really expecting people to only grapple with this as a quote celebrity story, not an issue of YouTube and their own adherence to

what they say their community guidelines are. And you know, I really take issue with that. I really have not seen a lot of folks in the tech community talking about this story as an example a really clear example of YouTube, I think, failing to create a reasonably safe environment for its users and and just for the world, right and out of curiosity because I don't know much about how YouTube works. Not take savvy. Is Warner making money from this as well when he gets all these views?

Oh that is a good question. I actually wouldn't really, I'm actually not totally sure if he specifically is making money from these videos being hosted, but I do know that he has a YouTube account, and so just how monetization works, I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not I'm not able to say one way or another, but I wouldn't

be surprised. I checked to see if the video was still on the platform before we started this this talk, and you know, right before the video played there's ads, and so I can I can imagine I wouldn't be surprised if he if he is making money from that as another income stream. And yeah, I guess that's That's really the crux of why I wanted to talk about this is that this is what happens when women and other traditionally marginalized people are not really meaningfully centered and

reflected in tech. It allows one platforms to harm us and make money from our harm, and be able to do so with without any kind of real accountability and to It allows for there are so many tech publications that are that are missing an opportunity to spotlight this as a tech issue in terms of the harm that that YouTube is allowing to be spread on their platform. Right, I mean that's the big conversation is that who is

making money off of someone with trauma? And this is absolutely what is happening, is that they're making money off of it and giving views and giving credibility to the abuser once again in as a musician. And this is such a whole other conversation of like, you have responsibility in making sure that people are not continually retraumatized and or being harmed by your content, and yes, if it

is your platform, you are responsible, point blank exactly. And I also think you know, YouTube there in their community guidelines to say, oh, we can take things down if there is a confession or a conviction. YouTube is owned by Google, right, Google is one of the biggest companies in the world. And how things work in the platform accountability space, when a huge player in the space does something,

it creates pressure for other people to do things. And so if Google was to do something, that would create the conditions for other smaller platforms to follow a suit, because big platforms really do set the tone, and so I believe that a company like Google, who owns YouTube should be able to say, we don't need to wait for Brian Warner to confess that he, you know, sexually assaulted Evan Rachel Will on the side of this video.

We don't have to wait for a legal conviction. We are Google, and we can set the standard for what is it is not appropriate on our platform, and a video of someone being sexual assaulted is not appropriate. But I believe that they're really just throwing up their hands and saying, not our problem. Call us when he confesses. Call us if there's a conviction, We're gonna just ignore this and hope that you do too. I think they are absolutely just abdicating responsibility. And guess what, you don't

get to do that when you're Google. When you're a huge company like Google, you have a responsibility that is very, very powerful, and you don't get to just say it's not our issue, We're gonna wait for the course to figure it out. We're gonna wait for him to confess. When you're Google. That that is so irresponsible, and it sets up a dynamic where other platforms can follow suit. So it really is irresponsible. Cowardly and also just harmful.

And again they're making money from this in action, and they're continuing to just let this video rack up millions and millions and millions of views that are being made from a video of someone being sexually assaulted. And let's also point out that it's a video, not the entire artist, not his whole genre of music, one video. That was the request. It shouldn't be that hard, exactly, and I guess I just I mean, yeah, it shouldn't be this hard.

And I want so desperately to believe that a different world for survivors as possible in the scheme of things. So small asking for one the music video to be removed in the scheme of things, what is that, you know? I feel like that is such a small ask that a survivor has clearly made, and they're just able to say no. I want to believe in a world where survivors can expect more, survivors can expect dignity and respect

and to be listened to and meaningfully centered. And I believe Google had has a chance to do that that they're just giving away. And it's exactly what you were saying that this is a question of believing women, respecting women. Let's say it was considual just for the sake of argument, And she's like, I don't like this because whatever happened beforehand in this relationship, it was traumatic. Please take it off.

That should be enough. That should be enough without having to regarditate the same experience as and tell them exactly how it hurt you, which is also traumatizing. We shouldn't have to be that we have to put on a fanfare for someone to believe that we are in pain point blank. Yeah. I mean, we shouldn't have to scream

just to be heard. You know. In this week's episode of my podcast There Are No Girls on the Internet, we talked to a survivor and an advocate, Alison Turkos, who was sexually assaulted in a lift, and she talks so eloquently about how she is expected to regurgitate the most traumatic, painful thing that happened her over and over and over again, and that we create a world where that is supposed to be the pathway for survivors to

get justice. And I don't think that survivors A owe you their stories or B should have to relive this pain just to get anyone to do something. YouTube has the power. They could, they could decide to take this one video down tomorrow. They take things down all the time for all different kinds of reasons. And I believe that making a survivor retell her pain in this way to then do nothing, it's just survivors are better, Survivors

should be able to expect better. Yes, yeah, I mean that's an excellent point because as someone who used to like upload YouTube videos a lot, and they get taken down all the time because the music was too close to other music. So it's like we're clearly I've been thinking this whole time as we've been talking about this, the messages that young girls are picking up from witnessing this from a celebrity that they see and this is

the response that she gets. And you know, we care more about copyright infringement the survivors and how that influences you and what you think is normal and what if you're going to report um, which again that is very personal and complicated and does have a lot of fallout often, but also just this idea of men getting this kind of genius artistic card and the like women that they've left behind this path of trauma that they left behind that we've determined is okay because we've got this art

out of it. And that's what it takes. And I've done I've done some work in acting before, and it is very you will get that messaging hardcore where it's like, but this is gonna be great, and this is going to launch your career, and this is what it takes. This is what you have to do because it's so competitive and oftentimes it's just like an excuse to take advantage of you and then you'll never hear from them again, God like if you were in a So that's how

it is in a lot of entertainment industries. Let's say that you were an accountant and someone was like, well, Joe is a really gifted accountant, so you're just gonna have to put up with him sexually assaulting you and physically abusing you and treating you horribly because he's just a really talented accountant. Uh No. And it should be

in the same way across industries. There shouldn't be these huge carve outs for men to get away with abusive behavior and have that abusive behavior be repackaged and sold back to us as genius No, I completely agree that whether you are a musician, an actor, or an accountant, there should be some clear standards for how you are expected to behave. And you know, a music video is a workplace. You know, that's that has a crew and has people who are paid to be there, and you know,

there's just no excuse for that. And I'm I'm unwilling to accept that that's you know, the marker of genius, or that we have to put up with men's powerful, men's bad or abusive behavior to get great art. No, I'm just unwilling. That's unacceptable to me. Agreed, Agreed, I can't wait. We gotta have a venting session on I need it. I obviously I need it. I feel like we all do. I can feel it in me um Well.

In the meantime, thanks so much for bringing this topic to us, Bridget and giving it the nuance that it deserves. Always appreciated. Where can the good listeners find you? Well, I would love it if you listen to my podcast. There are no girls on the Internet. Not all of our conversations are about heavy, sad issues, but we would love to have you listen. You can check it out on this very network I Heart Radio can follow me on Instagram at Bridget Marie in d C or on

Twitter at Bridget Murray. Yes, and definitely do that, and we can't wait to talk some more Bridget. Maybe we got some other things in the works coming up, very exciting, so look out for that. Listeners. Um, if you would like the emails that you can our email Steffiuma, stuff that I Hurt Me you dot com. You can find us on Twitter at most of podcast or Instagram and stuff under told You. Thanks always to our super producer Christina. We love you, Christina. Yes, and thanks to you for listening.

Stop Whenever told you his prediction I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio viausit, the heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.