She definitely committed so many offenses that harmed real life people. So I think to flatten something like that into this like very crivolous, like fun, glossy slog of a TV show full stop I Dot dot Dot there are No Girls on the Internet. As a production of I Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd, and this is
there are No Girls on the Internet. We spend a lot of time on the show talking about lies and the Internet, and I have to say that part of the reason why I personally work on disinformation issues is because of my intense fascination in things that are not true. How do lies function, why do we believe them? Who profits off of them? And how do they shape our world? So when the story first broke about the fake German
heiress Annah Delby, I was of were fascinated. Anna real name Anna Sirokan had been scamming investors, hotels, even her own friends in pursuit of opening an art foundation and private club called the Anna Delvy Foundation. The club, like the millions of dollars of family money that Anna said that she was supposedly worth, never materialized. Anna's former friend, Rachel DeLoach Williams first introduced the world to Anna after
she wrote about their disastrous trip to Marrakesh. Anna initially agreed to pay for the trip, but never managed to put down a working credit card at the pricey villa where they were staying. When hotel staff insisted that somebody put down a functioning credit card, Rachel was pressured into putting the cost of the entire trip sixty two dollars more than a year of her salary, on her work and personal credit cards. Now, Anna assured her that she would wire her the money to pay her back, but
she never did. In the end, Rachel helped lead police to Anna's are abouts, which led to Anna's arrest and conviction for one count of attempt at grand larceny, three counts of grand larceny, and four counts of theft of services related to her various scams, but she was found not guilty of the Rachel was out for the trip. Last month, Netflix released Inventing Anna, a fictionalized, very sympathetic retelling of her con based on the reporting of Jessica
Pressler at New York Magazine. Anna's crimes were so flashy and outlandish it was hard not to pay attention, and that Rachel says is kind of part of the scam. In her book, my friend Anna Rachel writes, I have
come to understand that your attention is an investment. Giving someone your attention is the act of being influenced, whether or not you're aware of it in the moment, and especially in this age of constant simulation, with endless people and stories competing for your clicks, likes, follows, and time. Your attention as value. It is power, It's worth something. It can even put money in someone's pocket. Be careful
where you spend it and understand the cost. I spoke to Rachel about why our current digital media landscape is presenting a golden age for scammers and what that means for all of us. And this one quick note. We were recording on a noisy day in Brooklyn, so the audio quality might not be what you're used to from this podcast. Why do you think this is? Why do you think we're in this era where people cannot get enough of people who lie and scam and steel and
cheat others. Yeah, it's a good question, and I've certainly asked myself the same one. But I think I have a kind of unique vantage point in that I lived through like a conversethand and I know that's sort of how it works. It's sort of this larger than life, flashy illusion, like a magic trick that is meant to grab your attention so that while you're busy sort of puzzling over it, you know, whatever sort of business is going on behind the scenes can can happen without too
much focus or or analysis, I suppose. So it's I think it um there's a fascination with with you know, tricksters and with like it is in many ways like like watching a magician at work, and so that people want to want to watch as like a voyeur to understand where this light of hand occurred, how someone fell for it, and and and you know, especially in this age where it is kind of hard with the Internet and with all of these different media forms coming at
us to discern between fact and fiction. To get to watch something in an arena that seems pretty low stakes because it's built as entertainment, I think it's people enjoy maybe like they don't think about it that hard, but they enjoy getting to see something that that strattles that divide on purpose. In talking about the Netflix show inventing Anna you talk, you right, really compel only about this that one of the reasons why the show is kind of dangerous is that it does sort of aim to
straddle that line. Each episode starts with this is a completely true story except for the things that are fictionalized, and I think as a viewer you might not really know that you're act like it can be used as a way to heavily deeply fictionalize something that actually people actually experienced, and I think that could the purposeful straddling of that line of fact and fiction and kind of blending them can be a little bit dangerous because the
stakes do feel well, it just feels like entertainment exactly. I mean, you've said it, and somebody is better than I can say it myself. But that's that's exactly right, and it's kind of disheartening. I mean, I appreciate that, like you're speaking of about this too, and other people you know, are certainly paying attention um now. But I think part of the reason I chose to continue talking about this, which you know, the story which is well and truly behind me and I would love to like
move on from and not be discussing today. But The reason I'm speaking up is because I see something happening that's that's a precedent that I do think is troubling, that I do think is dangerous, and I do think it it requires viewers to ask questions, probably more so than we can expect a media company who profits from
it to do. But the Netflix show Inventing Anna does do this thing where it like sticks that label up as a as a disclaimer, but it blends uh, you know, factual information with things that are completely made up, as it says it does. But it makes viewers go online, look things up, see that some things are true, and then that creates this foundation of credibility that allows them
to think, well that this is true. I believe the narrative that they've wove in with you know, this big, big budget production and all these like whistles and bells and like how compelling is that? Um, you know, storytelling is really powerful, and I think that's why it requires a level of responsibility. I think people are apt to believe things that they watching stories or that they connect to in terms of a narrative, more than sometimes dry
facts that they hear on the news. Yeah, you know, you describe this in your book um and talking about the way that um Anna's crimes have been glamorized in part of my places like Netflix, that you see it as a big picture problem. Is that sort of what you were referring to, Like that that's sort of the the big picture problem that you're describing. Yeah, that I think specifically, I have become very mindful of the ways
that our attention can be commodified. So when Anna was released from prison the first time before she was detained by ICE, I was asked to do a bunch of media appearances commenting on her release, and I declined because I was like, why, you know, why would I do that. I've already written the book, it's out, I've moved on. I have no interest in sort of coming out and speaking. You're hypothesizing about what somebody may or may not do
after jail like she did, she did her time. Like all we can do is like hope that you know,
a speed like I hope doesn't happen again. But while I was declining things, I saw that she was being given various media platforms, and that would be fine if she had something productive to say, But it felt as though these different outlets were just giving your space to rationalize her behavior, to continue peddling belief in this, you know, and fictional in my mind, like this fictional intention, you know,
like I was really going to do it. I didn't mean to never pay someone back, like all of these things that I believed for far too long, and that she's now getting to sell to a broader audience. So as I was watching that, what I realized is our attention to her, Our attention to people like this, our
attention to things is what gives them influence and power. Um. So when they say it's a big picture problem, I think what I'm really referring to is is the attention economy and the way that we think we're watching something just without steaks, but our viewership in itself is actually something that it does have a monetary value and also a value in terms of our our own behavior, our beliefs, um and and how how we moved through the world.
You write about how Ana will be given these like very convivial interviews where it's clear clearly the interviewer was like, wow, this Anna, this Anna Delby, like can you can you can? You believe it? And they would have these buzzy headlines, and I guess part of me is like, like, how can you print the words of somebody who lies if you're a journalist or a reporter. Like somebody asked like, oh, you just how to talk to Anna for this interview? And I was like, why would I Why would I
want to talk to somebody who lives? Yeah, I mean I think there's a way to do it. There's actually
a sixty minutes Australia Interviews I thought it was. I mean that it's of course still kind of sensationalized around the edges, but at least the viewer how to vary firm uh like framing device in which he you know, it's it's the same way I think the most successful interviews with someone like Donald Trump were conducted where you have a baseline foundation of truth fiction, you know, some some degree of commonly shared right wrong when it comes
to like ethics or reality, and you you actually try to hold someone to account. That's interesting, And then I
think it's actually like journalism. Um, but I think what I do find puzzling or I understand it, but I think I find it, you know, problematic, is the way that so much of our media and our news sources today are driven by not by quality but traffic, so so so places are incentivized to come up with these clickbait headlines, with these really sensationalized recaps of you know, you know events that in real life we're interesting, but you know, are so much more interesting if you embellish
these details. That And it was troubling for me because watching like even during the try, all the white people are reporting on what she was wearing or like, you know, she's so audacious, can you believe, like, like, yeah, she is, That's what you know. That's what drew me into the friendship. Friendship to here's this person you can't quite figure out,
Like she's she's wacky, she's really confident. She's doing these these things that kind of break your brain and make you sit there and stare and kind of ask questions. But that's how it works. Like while we're doing that, like no one's asking where's the money coming from? Like who's what are the what's the impact of this person's
behavior and why doesn't matter. According to BBC News, which filed a Freedom of Information Act request, Netflix reportedly started paying Anna before she had ever't even gone to trial. They paid thirty dollars, which went towards paying her lawyer. Then Netflix paid for the rights to adapt Anna's story into the show Inventing Anna. In total, Netflix reportedly paid
Anna three hundred and twenty dollars. Now that money was initially frozen toe of her victims a chance to sue, and even though some of her victims did file claims for a portion of those funds, whatever has left over that didn't go to paying the lawyers just goes right to Anna. And what did Anna spend that money on? Designer clothing? You've written about the fact that Netflix paid Anna, You know, it's a little bit of one of those
things where she used the money to pay legal fees. However, I would argue that it's not like it's not like I mean, they're they're her legal fees, and so if somebody gives me money and I'm like, oh, I use that money to pay my bills, I feel like it's a bit of a stretch to say that I'm not benefiting from that. But whatever, Uh, do you feel that Netflix is contributing to an ecosystem where lying and scamming
can be financially rewarding and financially lucrative. Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, this is like very cut and gy evidence of that because they moved so quickly to tom option the story that it they ended up paying Anna before her case even went to trial, before she even went to trial, and that that's the money that was used initially to pay her criminal the criminal defense layer whom she chose to pay his his like a initial fees, and then
beyond that they they started their writer's room. The day that the trial began. There were Netflix writers in the courtroom. Her lawyer was representing her and her entertainment dealings at the same time he was representing her in a criminal trial. And I knew that at the time, which is part of why I think I went into it feeling I mean, of course, I was also so raw, and it was also fresh, and I was so emotional way more, you know, I wish I had I had had like a little
more distance from everything, you're a little more composure. But I just felt, frankly so gaslighted by the fact that I was being accused of using my testimonious content into entertainment quote unquote because I was writing a book, um while at the same time I knew that everybody there was doing that, and I actually wasn't, like, you know, I was left sixty dollars in debt, Like I was just finding a way to like heal, to understand, to move forward. Um so yeah, it was really toxic Tervy.
And I do think Netflix certainly not only influenced the coming to justice proceedings, but also gave this person who you know, we can all think what we want to think, but looking on paper at her past actions, she is a convicted criminal and they have created for her a glamorized version of her crimes, given her a platform, given her an audience, and set her up with a viewership that she can now continue to monopolize. Like she will continue to make money on the notoriety that she achieved
through permitting criminal acts. Let's a quick break utter back. Scammers are not a new phenomena. They've always existed, but in the age of streaming services and social media, it seems like we're living in a golden age for scammers, where if your scam is flashy enough and captures our attention and just the right kind of way, what might have started as a scam can be laundered into a
more legitimate platform. For instance, Netflix is The Tinder Swindler, a documentary that chronicles Simon Leviv, who posed as a wealthy jet set playboy by duping women that he met on the dating app Tinder out of thousands of dollars. Leviv's con involved convincing women to loan him money throughout landish lies, and since the documentary, Levev is clearly trying to parlay the attention and notoriety from his cohn into
a pathway of a more legitimate, not to mention, lucrative platform. So, as Anna once intimated to a BBC reporter, it's kind hard to say that crime doesn't pay, because it seems like in our current media landscape it kind of does. Do you think that we live at a climate where people who scam and live people like like she was, as you said, she was convicted of this. So it's not like it's some big secrets. It's not like it's you say, these are just the facts of what happened.
I feel like we are allowing pathways to legitimize these people. And like, you know, maybe it started as a con, and it started as a scam. By the end of it, you'll have money and an audience and people who are interested to see what happens next, and that you can sort of legitimize that. Like, for instance, if you watch the Netflix documentary The Tinder Swindler, um the scammer in that case, Simone Simon Simon, something like that. Um, you know,
we got this big bump in social media followers. And also is making pretty good money on cameo right now. He's starting three hundred dollars for a personal shout out and fourteen hundred dollars our business shout out. He has a manager, He's talked about wanting to do a podcast. You know, are are we creating? Are is the media creating pathways for folks to legitimize what started out as
a scam or a con or a lie. Absolutely, And I think, you know, looking back, it's actually a really interesting book about this called The Attention Merchants by this this man called Tim Woo. With the rise of reality television and this model of normal person too to celebrity uh as like a model for business. And then it evolved into social media where people not you know, they could It wasn't like winning the lottery. Everybody too could do this if they found a way to brand themselves,
to market themselves. That was compelling enough to attract attention. But as you've just realized, unless you have some kind of outlandish loud stick or personality, like, no one is really paying attention. And I think this is like now evolved into curation, not just through digital media. But here are these people, and these people have always existed, mind you, but we live in an age where that kind of
behavior is really rewarded. You know, It's not an age where it's about you know, morality or like like which which sounds so like pollyannish and hokey, but it's very much about this sort of the cult of personality and who al chect our attention and like obviously who we you know, voted our president is a testament testament to that. What you just articulated is one of my biggest issues and making the show is the way that we have our entire digital ecosystem and media ecosystem is biased toward
outrageousness and lies and scams. It's been a documented thing that on social media, um incorrect information travels much faster and much farther than accurate information. There's as saying like a lie can travel around the world while the truth is still betting on it us or some some variation
of that. But it's very true, absolutely true. And so you know, we talk a lot on this podcast about the ways that our landscapes have become this like marketplace for extremism, and who's really losing is us the general public.
You know, there's a problem when the Weather channel is sensationalized, like for the Weather Channel to be like whoa like you know, and giving these like hokey names to things, and like making everything seem like a doomsday event and it's like it's like sprinkling outside, like there's no news here. They rely on viewership the same way as any other channel does. So like for our entire economy to run based on like clicks or attention like that is scary.
There are certain things that I think probably would we we all might be a little better off if there were other motivators. We all deserve timely thought, all accurate information.
And so even you know, your example of the Weather Channel, I I need to know whether or not to bring an umbrella, and I turn on the weather and it's like, you know, monsoons and hurricanes and oh my god, and it's like, well, I'm being underserved because I don't know if I need to bring an umbrella and I'm going down the street, you know, And so we all we
all lose out. We all lose when we don't when we have any kind of media ecosystem that is biased towards sensationalism or lies or scams or clicks and outrageousness rather than thoughtful, accurate, nuanced content, and it pushes us to the extremes of either total belief or complete disbelief because either you buy into whatever you know, cool age you're looking for, like whether that's Fox News or you know,
some like extreme version of like CNN. Like you know, they all have their their biased reporting techniques, right, But like I think you either sort of hop on a bandwagon or you say none of it's objective. I don't believe anything, And then that's not great either, because there are still things that should be believed. So I do agree that it is a disservice to everybody because it creates the system in which it's really hard to tell
truth from fiction. In my day, JAB I do a lot of work combating conspiracy theories and things like that and trying to try to understand why people fall prey of them, and a big part of it, it's just complete lack of complete lack of trust in the media institutions. And I think that's a big reason why. It's like, I can understand why somebody would just lose all trust in media when that is the thing that fuels it. Yeah. Absolutely,
And there is a lot of similarity obviously. I mean, the steaks are just sort of its apples and oranges with when it comes to like someone like Anna and like masculine conspiracy theories. But there is similarity in the way that both um, I guess, like lie structures or manipulation techniques rely on framing arguments in a way that makes them almost irrefutable because they they they speak to these sort of like cryptic abstracts or things that you
literally just can't disprove even though they are false. It's like a flawed a flawed framing device. Uh. And I think it's really hard for people, especially if you're isolated, um to keep your feet on the ground and understand what's happening if you're not familiar with that type of
behavioral pattern. After the disastrous trip to Marrakech, Rachel was left with a six credit card bill that her credit card company eventually forgave, but before that, Rachel struggled to pay rent and took loans from loved ones to cover bills to get by. She eventually published her book about what she learned from a relationship with Anna, called My Friend Anna, and sold the rights to develop her story
for television to Lena Dunham an HBO. Rachel takes a lot of criticism for quote profiting off of her relationship to Anna. So I wanted to go back to something that you mentioned, which is that you sometimes take criticism for the fact that you you know, published a book about your experiences, You've written about your experiences. Um. I interviewed AMANDAA the axon are you probably know who she is? Uh?
And something that she said in that interview that I will never forget is that, you know, she's often criticized for making money, you know, writing books about what happened to her. And you know, however, producers, filmmakers, writers, they make a lot of money retelling sometimes like a really harmful, deeply fictionalized account of something that like sort of happened around her. But like it's always like deeply, deeply fictionalized.
And something that she said was that it's apparently everyone else is allowed to profit off of something that happened to me except for me. Everybody who's coming money off of my story but me, And I guess, you know, why do you think this is? You know? I guess I should say a side note, which is that if I lost a lot of money, anybody who wanted to pay me to tell the story of what happened to me to recoup my expenses, I would absolutely say yes.
And I think that most people would. But I feel that we have this expectation where victims are kind of expected to be kind of holier than now. Meanwhile, the people who harmed them, it's like they can do whatever they can make money, however, And so I think, why do you think that I think that comes from? Um? I mean, first of all, I do completely agree with you. It often feels like the victims are on trial more
so than the criminals. Uh. And also like there's this odd thing that I've realized, the word victim is has so much packed into the connotations around the word. The word It's like people think, as soon as you're no longer in debt or as soon as you've been made hold no matter how hard you hard, you have to work to actually become okay, you're not a victim anymore. Like you're now you know, and someone who's exploiting a situation if you, you know, keep moving forward or if
you're seeing to succeed. And it's like, what is a victim? Like does a victim? What does the victim look like? I've had so many people reach out to me on social media to say, you don't look like a victim, and I think that is such a loaded odd thing to say to somebody, Like saying that you were the victim of a crime is not a request for pity. It's a request for acknowledgement of a wrong that was committed. You know. It is not like I'm still stuck in
this like stalled state and perpetuity. It's like, this happened and that's a fact. Doesn't matter what you do afterwards to be okay, you know, to to repair the damage, to find a way out of it, Like that is really not relevant. Um, But I think there there are a lot of things that are distracting, especially when these stories get retold through the lens of media or entertainment people tend to fixate on the whistles and bells and the flashy trips and the money um, and they hold
that I think the jury did the same thing. They sort of hold that lens up and say, well, you know, looking at the net gain, you were doing this before Anna, and now you're doing this. You came out okay, therefore no, the crime didn't happen. It's like, wait, so you're saying I was too good at you know, finding like fighting too the nail to find a way forward, Like, therefore it didn't happen, Like what, why do I think it happens?
I think it's really easy for people to hold on to really simplified recaps of something that was actually very complex and nuanced. And of course, looking back, red flags look like this, like very tidy pattern. But when you're living through something where you're dealing with a master manipulator, uh, you know, there's time between these these things that might have tipped you off to trouble ahead. There's there's a there's an actual relationship between real life people and everything
is much grayer than it appears in hindsight. Yeah, it's so funny because I feel like a lot of people I've seen and I saw, like I guess this idea of you know, well, while that was happening, she definitely wanted to go to Morocco, where she definitely wanted So it's like who gives a ship like it just it just seems so like picking apart. It feels very victim blaming.
It's very convenient and and I think people want to look for a reason to explain why something bad has happened to somebody, you know, especially if if it is not like yeahly, you know, when it seems like someone's come out okay, then it's like, okay, we all have like carte blanche to just sit here and talk about
why you deserved it. And you know, at the end of the day, like it's a everybody wants to be understood, and like it steems to be misunderstood and it seems to have things framed in a way that's not true, especially when they're so personal and so many people are forming opinions about you from so little information and flawed information. Um. But at the end of the day, like everybody looks at a story like this, which you know, it's not a news story, it's like Taylor as old as time.
It's just in a in a modern uh iteration of it. But you people look at it and they project um their understand They come away with an understanding of it based on their own life experiences. And if it's important for people to think, if it looks too good to be true, it probably is, or you know, don't get sucked into materialism or like you know, everybody looks at it and thinks these things. But I think that's actually more telling of their own life experiences than it is
necessarily of mine. Like have I asked myself those questions? Of course I have, Like if I had it, I think, you know, it's really important to look at That's why I wrote A wrote I guess to start, and I wrote what turned into the book, But do so that I could frame, you know, piece together. That's like narrative of experience that I lived through. Look at it, try to like dig into it, understand what happened, what to make of it, like why it happened, and how to learn,
heal and move forward. Something that you said. You said, people want an explanation for why this happened to you. I think what they're actually looking for is an explanation for why this would never happen to that. So I think it's about them, right, and I mean absolutely as they don't even know me, and and like there even if even if someone didn't eat either this experience, this is something that happened, was that friendship. I knew her for a year, were close friends for about three months,
three brief months. Like she never bought me clothes, she never bought me shoes, she never bought like did I work out with her? Yes? Did she pay for some dinners? Yes? Did she invite me on this crazy vacation percent But to say that anybody understands someone else's entire values like value system and personality and character through like a few months of what is a you know, thirties some odd year life with so many more important like and like
I don't know telling things and it's just life is weird. Huh, it's weird. I kind of say, I love this is kind of a side note. I love your perspective on this. I feel like if it's happen to me, I guess I guess you know you were saying earlier how people don't really see the work involved in getting you to a place where you're like, well, this is behind me.
I'm speaking about it now not because I want to relitigate what happened like the minutia of our relationship, but because I want to ask these like thoughtful questions about what it says about our culture and all of that. You think as someone who was like you know, I know we don't see that work, but where you are today, it just seems like you're you. I really appreciate your
perspective of where you're at right now. I really appreciate you like acknowledging or understanding that because it's very hard. You know, like even I guess being a photo producer is much the same way. It's like if you're doing it well, nobody pays attention to how it happened or why it's happening in this way. But like it's I mean, it's irritating, except that like there's nothing I can do people who are I want to be wrong or it's
gonna be wrong. But like when people are like, oh you just want the spotlight or oh you just want attention, it's like I've turned down so many more things than I have said yes to, Like this is a spot late that I did not want. You know, I have done the best I could with with something that was very negative, and I've done the best I could to make it into something positive, not just for myself, but
ideally for others. Do we have gone through the same thing or or to prevent others from going through the same thing? Um, but you're you like think you you're you're You're completely right? What like my very specific and clear objective as to why I'm still talking today? Does does it really is about this spotlight that I didn't want? And and I thought very hard about whether or not to just sort of like lie low not comment to the Netflix thing came out like just like not say
anything at all. But I I recognize the value of attention, and I recognize the fact that whether or not I choose to engage with it, there would be this attention coming my way. And it felt like there are so many really important causes in the world that need attention. There's so many important issues even relating to this specifically
that can't get able to pay attention to them. So I really wanted to like yield the time towards asking questions and then ideally, I mean like finding people like you are, are you know, finding a way to sort of redirect the spotlight towards towards activation partners who can speak to these issues in a thoughtful way and and make people think a little harder or or differently about something that on the surface just seems so sort of frivolous. Our attention has value, and it's also we only have
so much of it. And so when lies and outrageousness are are amplified to get our attention, what's not getting our attention? What important are just going overlooked? Because exactly, And that's I think, that's that's so right. It's like, you know, do I watch bad TV? Of course I do. Do I eat junk food? Of course I do. Like it's not to say don't do it, it's just to be mindful that if that's all you do, like that
really will inform the your life. Like like you know, when you are paying attention to these things that are designed to suck up your attention, that are designed to make you want more of them, they're addicting. You are not paying attention to something else. You are not you know, necessarily having the autonomy you may think you have over the direction of of your purpose. I definitely know what
you mean more after a quick break. I know firsthand that navigating are connected digital lives also comes with navigating all kinds of complicated issues, like, for instance, what do you do if you were going through a depressive episode and completely stop answering emails? What's the etiquette around logging back on and replying to them super late? Or is it okay to not accept your boss or coworkers friend request on social media? Now on there Are No Girls
on the Inner That's all new newsletter. Not only can you get more Internet insights, but we will be weighing in answering your Internet questions and conundrums. So subscribe to There Are No Girls on the Internet newsletter at tangoti dot com slash newsletter. And if you want to support the podcast, thank you so much, check out our online
store at tangoti dot com slash store. Let's get right back into it so you can probably tell that I did not really enjoy the Netflix show Inventing Anna, and one of my biggest issues with it is the way that it frames Anna's crimes with a kind of girl boss hustle mentality that she came to this country as an immigrant with nothing, and that if she did maybe do a little lying and scamming he were there, it was only in pursuit of building something that she truly
believed in. After all, isn't that The American Dream? Over on another scammer story, Who Lose the Dropout, which chronicles the story of Elizabe Holmes, former CEO of Saranos, a blood testing company that turned out to be a total scam, actually does a pretty good job of showing how empty, not to mention, dangerous, it can be when scamming and
lying is rebranded as vision or leadership. One of the questions I did have for you is that the Inventing Anna Show does this, but I've also seen it kind of glimmers of it, and other and other scammers and just sort of a media in general, this idea of like scamming and lying kind of being rebranded as hustling or trying to achieve the American Dream or worse, girl bossing.
You know, I get, I completely, like logistically understand why that's how it's framed or why it's how it's reframed, but and it's such an easy narrative, but you know, I think it's kind of harmful to reframe feeling from people and lying from people as hustling and girl bossing and leadership. And I guess my question is like, what are your thoughts about that? Have you seen this and what do you think about it? Yeah, I think it's lazy. I just I think it's lazy, and I do think
it does it does do damage to the reality. You know, it's so backwards to to attempt to make something about like classism, racism, sexism, and then to frame it in a way that is promoting someone who couldn't care less about those issues unless they're serving their own agenda Like that is such a disservice to people who are actually working to read, you know, to to explore and explore these issues and create positive change in ways that are
actually meaningful and substantive, especially in in the past I don't even know how many years, I guess like ten years or so, maybe less like these these sort of catch all buzzwords like like feminism or like um good grief. There's a performative activism that that features words that have become and be and and and like missions that have become trendy, and I think shows like this have kind of glommed onto that. I told her I watched the finale of the show on piloo to drop that about
Elizabeth Holmes and the Serranos scam Lady. There was a time in feminism were like a woman like a woman like making money that was feminism. I do think there's a kind of it's sort of a it's a sort of like era feminism I'm not proud of where Yeah, if you were just a woman who was make like out for herself and making money, that was seen as like a feminist win, and we didn't really ask a lot of questions about are you harming people? Are you you know can like like, we didn't really ask a
lot of questions. And I think that I kind of see this era kind of maybe coming to a close, I hope, But I think that that era really allowed for women to be lauded as feminist icons for doing things that actually hurt other people at their own expense. I don't think the answer to chauvinism is a form of feminism that mirrors the same thing, like that reverses
that that negative way of being. Like, I do think sometimes pendulum swing too far before they kind of find their their middle, and it seems like that's what happened. It's like, well, you did this for so long, therefore, like it's my time to do it, and we should celebrate the fact that I'm doing it. Um, it's I think it's it's hard sometimes to see that when you're in it, and when it's a reaction rather than like
like it's it's reactive rather than proactive. Right, So it's it's it's like finding a way to exist as a woman in reaction to what men have done wrong, rather than just finding a way to exist as a woman. Um. I don't have solutions, but I see the trend as well. And I guess one thing related to the who we showed, But I think that show actually strikes as I mean, obviously what she did does not strike me as something
that was done well. But the show I thought did a a good job actually of dramatizing real life events because they framed her in a way that felt very true to the actual sequencing of what happened. Like I read Bad Blood by junk Are You and it felt like, you know, I followed a fact pattern and it framed her not as someone that everybody was. I mean, you saw how she was celebrated, but that was true to
the way that it happened in real life. It was very true to the to the mixed reactions she received. And I thought Amanda Seeping to an amazing job of not like gleefully sort of relishing this like the stick of the con but just in framing this sort of very misguided, probably like psychologically unhealthy person who like just kind of lacked a certain like human hip that allowed her to understand the importance of her decision making on
real lives. It just was such a foil for me when I watched that versus what I had seen and Inventing Anna, which really just looked like something that had been made by people who really bought into what Anna was selling. Oh my gosh, I so I am happy
to hear you say this. I felt the exact first of all inventing Anna, all all of the issues that you brought up with that, Yes, but also just like with a slug to watch, like I wanted to watch it before I talked to you, And literally my partner was like, I feel like you've been watching this show for a decade, and I was like, you and me both,
but just wasn't an inter hitting show. And again having that having like I felt the Dropout was different because it had empathy for the people who were harmed, right, you saw these people who were you know, had cancer and were involved in these blood these blood trials. You know. It had empathy for the whistleblowers who risked so much
to their of their selves to come forward. I felt like it was a show that managed to demonstrate the kind of seductive you know called the personality around a scammer without falling prey to it, and inventing Anna was exactly the opposite. It was done, Yeah, it was done so thoughtfully and had such depth to it because yeah, of course there are people who like popped on the bandwagon and celebrated her like it was just the full range of people who were made to to read like
real life people. You know. I think Inventing Anna flattened everybody, And there's a way that can be done. And like a show like Gossip Girl or a show that is meant to be and in some ways I guess this is but meant to be about materialism and superficiality. But to reduce something like this where real real crimes were committed, Real people's lives were impacted. It wasn't just these like faceless things. There people who lose jobs. There are people
who obviously are not oviously. If we're obvious, that would wouldn't be a problem, But there are people who weren't included in the you know, the court case. She definitely committed so many offenses that that harmed your life people. So I think to flatten something like that into this like very trivelous, like fun, glossy slog of a TV show full stop, I don't know, dot dot dot. Yeah, I mean, it's there were times where I was like, are you meant to be rooting for Anna and the show?
And then the I think the richest part is at the end, where the biggest crime the show seems to suggest has been committed is the character that shares your same name. She's like like, neth Is like you're a bad friend, and it's like, well Anna went to jail, Like come on, like I know, I get, I mean, and people really believe all that is fact, like you are, like she bank rolled youre you for two years and like I know better than to feed the trolls on
the internet. Like it's not my job to to like edge keep people about fact, Like what, like the truth is out there if anybody wants to look for it. But like I didn't even know her that long and she didn't that thing like uh, but yeah, so to have have it framed as though, like where's the loyalty, It's like this is someone you know, we were not best friends. I knew her, and also look what she did.
Look look at the pattern of her behavior. At what point, what why are you suggesting people who are in these like manipulative relationships, see their friendships or or whatever like that, that they are doing something wrong by choosing to leave something that is so harmful. Like that's bizarre. That's like,
that's a very bizarre thing to say. Also, the show rearranged it as though I had been reimbursed before the chial and that I like kept the secret of my involvement with her arrest, like like or kept out a secret like didn't happen. I was protected two years after Marrakesh after the trial concluded. I didn't keep my involvement in the sting some kind of like grand secret. I wasn't ashamed of it, but I wasn't that close with like Naphra Casey, you know, I like them, I don't.
I have nothing negative to say. It's like find everybody can look back and see things through the lenses and that's you know, it is what it is. But we weren't in touch. It's not like I owed people explanations. I was out more than they made anything. They were not left in any kind of like debt or like there was no ongoing relationship there. So to suggest that by not reaching out to say hello, like this is what I have done and like it's like that's just weird.
Does it doesn't make any sense? Yeah? And I think people people understand the way these relationships and acquaintanceships work in their own lives and it's like, of course that would be that you wouldn't owe these people anything or you wouldn't owe like you know, but when it's someone else and that that that was that the minutia of those relationships are like projected for everyone to pick apart. Suddenly it's like, oh, why would she do that? Doesn't
you have loyalty? And it's like, well, calm down, think about how this would actually go down if it was you, Like, we all understand it in our own lives, but when it's somebody else, I think it's like different. Yeah, evidently, And I understand people don't tune INDI shows like this to really think very analytically. It's mostly about just getting a good laugh at other people's expense, and like you know,
I do too. It's fine, Like it's I'm not I certainly can't like hate on people for being human, Like that's how this breaks um. I just I think that the frivolity of it does conceal something that is a bigger picture problem, as I have said, which is why I figure, if I'm stuck in this this it was like dumpster fire anyway, I might as well shy and like send up a smoke signal about you know, red flags that I know a little too well from the
first hand experience. Yes, speaking of your firsthand experience, one of the last questions I have is, like, what has it just been like for you, Rachel, the person going through this get in the social media's roles, getting people who have maybe been misled about what happened from the television show. What is it be like to deal with
that on online? Yeah, I mean it's it's definitely not easy, but I'm mindful of the like I'm I'm mindful of my my my privilege and my luck just to have like such supportive family and friends, to have an awareness of exactly what it is that is happening, you know, part of it I learned the hard way, just through gas lighting with Anna to begin with, and now through what I've learned in looking back at what happened looking like you know, at at like I guess, I mean,
reading the book helped me a lot, just in terms of sort of looking at the pattern of behavior as a pattern rather than like this. When you're in a relationship like that, it's really hard to see anything is black and white, because it's not. Life is grey, um, But looking back things seems so much clearer to me.
So I'm grateful to have had people who believe me, who like like a platform to speak from the opportunity to speak, which all that is to say it's hard, But part of the reason I'm speaking up about it is because I think that the structure of the Netflix show, or or this broader pattern that's happening, it does a disservice to people who don't have that ability to understand what's happening to them who might not get to hear stories like this because people are ashamed or they're scared
of the victim blaming, which is completely fair. It's not it's I mean, it's it's wild, um, and it's you know, I can have my feet on the ground and my head on my shoulders, and if I sit there and read that for longer than maybe like ten minutes, like it's even if you know that, you know it's it's actually not about you. It doesn't feel good to have that kind of energy coming in, Like I mean that sounds so woo woo, but like that kind of hostility coming at you, Like it's like death by paper cuts.
Like you can be the strongest rock in the water, but like if it keeps running, like you're gonna get worn down. Um, so it's hard, but I recognize that it's harder, so much harder for so many other people, and uh yeah, then it can be pretty nasty. We've talked a lot about how the dangers that come when we give up, when we willingly give our attention a way to liars and scammers and people who are outrageous
and extreme. Um, do you ever see a situation where things like nuanced thoughtfulness, UM, honest accurate content will be amplified over that kind of extremism and and lies. Do you think that we're this is just it forever or do you see do you see a change coming? Um? I mean, as evidenced by past behavior. I am kind of a willful optimist through and through, and that is just who I am. So I always hoped for that, you know. UM, I do think the damage done by
what you just said, like the the pattern. What I'm trying to say is the truth will out and and it's one thing to think the pattern of celebrating these individuals does do harm. That is and will be visible until there is a movement in the opposite direction. So I think we've already seen that, like from like me to forward, where people are starting to pay attention to things in a different way and actually attempt to hold
outlets and individuals to account. Um. I just think it's in very specific arenas thus far that that seems to be happening. And I think people like to to sort of pretend that things they do for entertainment don't touch on the same subjects or don't have the same impact or our seriousness, and that to me is that that's the very slow I hope that people recognize these things are not separate. They're inextricably linked to the way that me as a culture um celebrate people and and uh
former blieves that's really smart. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi? You can be us at Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangodi dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Ary Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Motto
is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. And then I have to rum, and then I have to ormed.