There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Tad and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. So this is part two of our episode on doctor Andrew Huberman. If you have not listened to part one, you're probably gonna want to listen to that before you listen to this to have the context. But to recap, Andrew Huberman is a very famous, very popular podcaster and neuroscientist who has been giving guidance to millions of people on how
to hack their way to a better life. New York mag just published a piece with the stories of six women in doctor Huberman's life who alleged that he mistreated them, and also looking at some of his questionable science and ethical practices, like endorsing dubious supplements. I'm joined by a producer, Mike, who is also a scientist, to get into why we're all so quick to build up flawed people into gurus.
You and I were talking about this off Mike, Mike, weird thing to say about what exactly you think is going on here? Right? So, after doing all my research for this episode, I have totally changed my mind. I go back to this episode that we did early in Tangote's history with a Foma Uzoma, who was formerly a pinterest She developed the platform's first ever medical misinformation policy, and in our conversation, she told me that it's really
not that deep. Like a lot of the people who push medical misinformation are just scammers, right, They're just using fear or whatever or like junk science to get people to give them money for whatever scam supplement or scam course they're selling or whatever. And I think I'm kind of coming around the fact that maybe Huberman is like a little bit of a scammer, like like maybe it's not like, maybe it's not that deep. He is just like a snake oil salesman who gets rich from selling
snake oil. So he is using his scientific credentials to booth that snake oil.
Yeah, I agree. I think that's a big piece of it here, right, Like it's not in dispute that he is aggressively promoting supplements that do not have evidence based to demonstrate their effectiveness and he's getting rich off that, right. That's like literally, you know, I guess it's not literally, but it is a direct analogy to selling snake oil. Yeah,
good old fashioned scammer. I do think that he's a little bit more interesting or different than a lot of your garden variety scammers, just because he's so much more educated and is like a bona fide scientist making scientific contributions and seems to be a very introspective person. So like, I'm just so fascinated the story he tells himself to justify selling that snake oil.
Well, Andrew Huberman's whole thing is like a storyteller exercise about himself, like a myth making exercise about himself. Like the sort of story that he tells about himself is that he was a troubled kid. His parents handled his divorce in a way that left him neglected and like unparented.
His parents kind of dispute that, but whatever, and that he was sent to sort of a facility for troubled youth and that talk therapy is what saved him, and he wanted to dedicate his life to like helping others because of that, and he got into Stanford despite the fact that he was this like troubled youth who was like essentially unparented. So he says, what does seem certain is that an adolescence, Andrew became a regular consumer of talk therapy. In therapy, one learns to tell stories about
one's experience. A story one could tell is I overcame immense odds to be where I am. Another is the son of a Stanford professor born at Stanford Hospital, grows up to be a Stanford professor. Like I do think that he maybe is somebody who, like we all certain effects, but like gets down on the story that he tells
himself and that story sort of becomes the truth. And so maybe the story that he tells himself, like the story that I tell myself when I have to do adreads is like, if I didn't do these ad reads, the people who make my podcast would not be able to be paid. I would not be able to be paid, the show would not be able to go on, right, And so that's the story I tell myself when I'm doing adreads for our sponsors, all of whom I love
and respect very much. But I think, like that's the story that I have to tell myself to feel okay about doing these adreads, even though nobody likes ads. I think it's different when you are a scientist telling yourself a story that makes it okay to use your credentials as a scientist to maybe lead people into things that are risky.
Yeah, especially when you are publicly preaching introspection and discipline and accountability. Those all seem like virtues that maybe he should take a deeper look at.
Yeah, this is I'm kind of going off script here, but like you were saying, how the popular guru who doesn't take their own advice and is not living the values that they preach in public. That is such a well worn thing, that's almost a cliche at this point. I wonder what it is that about Huberman that makes it so hard to see this well worn trope playing out in before our eyes, because I think that's in
part kind of what's going on here with Huberman. But it's so interesting to me how people are like, but he's a scientist, but he's introspective, but he's very thoughtful, he's different. Maybe it's just the power of marketing, the power how people really want to believe that what he's doing is so much different than the doctor oz Is of the world because of the way he packages it so effectively as being different.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I haven't listened to his podcast. But you know, in the research for doing this, you know, I read a couple of artists that we're talking about it, and all of them mentioned when he's interviewing guests or speaking in public. You know,
it's characterized by humility and kindness and compassion. And I could imagine that all of those would be things that would disarm a audience and make them feel like the person could be trusted right and feel more connected to them, Like humility is super powerful.
But even that reminds me of the way these women say that he used that same kind of language to control them. You know. That's sort of like like at one point, when one of the women realizes that he cheated on her, he texts her like something along the lines of, I hear you, and I'm willing to hear
you for as long as you need. Which, again, it's almost like therapysts beak to get away with bad behavior, And I wonder if that's part of it, like using a certain kind of disarming lang waged and disarming presentation and disarming you know, vibe to really effectively trick people into trusting you and to trick them into not seeing what is so obviously in front of their own eyes or or happening in their own ears, like I don't need It's like not some of this stuff is not
in dispute. It's not in dispute that he takes money from supplement companies. It is not in dispute that supplement companies are notoriously not transparent and rely on junk science, if any science at all. Those things are not in dispute. So the fact that people are like, no, he would never it's like he would not dispute that is what's happening.
Yeah, it's a good question. What is it about him that makes people like him and want to follow his advice? But clearly he's done very well at it, and I think it is an important question for us all to consider.
I think part of it's gotta be that he's hot.
Probably helps, Like he's like jacked, he has glasses, Like I don't know, Like, I think he's someone that maybe a lot of the male listeners in his audience want to see themselves in, Like who would not want to be like, oh, yeah, I'm this like jacked, ripped guy who has glasses, But it's also a scientist and like can maybe juggle women in an unethical way, Like I think that men are identifying with him in a certain way, and that is maybe making it hard for them to
see what is happening so plainly, right out and open. Yeah, it's a good point.
Yeah, there's a lot of ways in which the life he's leading feels aspirational.
Mm hmmm, I completely agree. So Doctor Andrea Love, her piece just makes him sound like a good old fashioned scammer. Again, I will link to it in the show notes, so should definitely read it. So she points out that he is somebody who uses dubious science to put people off of accepted medical interventions like fluoride or vaccines, even when there is broad medical consensus about it, in service of suggesting all alternative that he has a financial stake in.
So doctor Love says that Huberman uses false balance, the fallacy that equal and opposite sides always exists. Take his thoughts on fluoride. While fluoride has been used for decades to prevent dental disease, Huberman gives the impression that there is an ongoing debate among experts about its use, and reasons for his listeners to be careful about how much
fluoride containing tap water they consume. During his Oral Health podcast episode, Huberman undermines consensus data on fluoride, endorses fluoride free toothpastes as well as a Yerba mate tea company that uses fluoride free water and which he is a business partner of, and cites a dentist who spreads fear
about fluoride as his expert reference. Huberman positions this for his listeners as information to make the best decision, as though we all need to be carefully thinking about our fluoride levels.
Yeah, again, cherry picking here. It sounds like he cherry picked particular expert who has an axed the grind about fluoride while ignoring the vast majority of dentists who are in consensus that fluoride is positive thing to promote oral health.
And when we were talking about his cold and flu episode where he was talking about how he doesn't always get the flu shot because it is not effective unless the shot protects from that exact strain of flu going around that year, which is not totally accurate, you were like, well, why would he do that? You know, what does he have to gain in discrediting vaccines? And again if you believe doctor Andrea Love, it comes down to those supplements
that he sells. Having a paid sponsor is not a disqualifier in and of itself, she writes, But when your financial conflicts of interest seem to dictate your content, it should be After dismissing legitimate data. In the flu episode, his lengthy quote science backed discussion to prevent colds and flu boiled down to an extended commercial for taking supplements. So all of me has me wondering, which I think is the point of the New York mag piece. Why
do we look to anybody for their life advice? Like, why do we make people into gurus in the first place. It does not surprise me that Huberman really got famous famous in the twenty twenty one era of COVID. You know, we were all sort of alone and connected and looking for some solution or some antidote to that where you weren't sleeping well, you weren't eating well, maybe like the vibes were terrible. So in a lot of way, I think the public we were just like easy marks during that time.
Yep, just a bunch of dupes with money, yeah, looking for a quick fix. Yep, rubes looking for a solution and you You and I kind of.
Talked about this off mic, but it's one of the reasons why like life advice content. Like I'm not somebody who really unless I'm really having a dark time of desperation, Like, I'm not someone who listens to lifestyle or life advice podcasts. I don't like career advice podcasts. I just don't like this idea that one person has a one size fits all solution. This is my opinion. I don't think life
works that way. I think people are really complex. People have very complex motivations and desires and needs and hang ups. I don't see how a stranger could speak to that in any way. That is I'm not saying. I don't not saying that anybody should like but you're a bad person if you listen to that. I just feel like anybody who is like wearing a blazer and crossing their arms and being like I have the answer, something in me automatically is like suspect of that.
I one hundred percent agree. Yeah, anybody who says that they have the answer huge red flag. And I'm somebody who loves learning from people. There are so many smart people in the world, who have insight, who have wisdom, who talk about interesting philosophical and ethical questions that you know, help me understand the world and help me decide how to live my life. But I feel like there's a
very fine line where that crosses over into solutions. And therefore you should do xyz, you should buy this supplement, you should adopt my patented life routine. Once they start hawking a specific solution, that red flag gets a little bit higher. And then when that solution is something that you can buy, it's time for me to walk away.
You've lost me. You've lost me.
Let's take a quick break at our back.
I think we're kind of in a golden age of the snake oil salesman who can use digital mediums like podcasts or social media to demonstrate that they have it all figured out, that they had the kind of life that is aspirational that you would want to live. It's basically how MLMs might operate of like, my life looks dope as hell on Instagram? Don't you want to live like I do? If you buy this thing, you can.
And so I think that we're kind of in a golden era of coaches and lifestyle gurus and wellness people and people selling courses just like and I'm not saying all of those are are are bunk, because I certainly don't know, but like, I think that we're in an era where people are looking for a solution to the way that things feel right now, and there's always going to be somebody willing to take their money offering that solution, and we got to be extra careful about who and
why we elevate to that platform.
I think you're absolutely right, And I think that really intersects with the fact that he is a scientist and that, you know, speaking from science is part of his brand on the podcast. You know, he's somebody who looks really good on videos, looks good on Instagram, is good at managing social media, can build this following leads this like aspirational, cool looking life, which makes people want to emulate him.
And if he's give advice, it's reasonable to think that, oh, if I take that advice, my life could look like his. So the things that he's saying must be true, because his life looks pretty good. He's healthy, he's wealthy, he's sleeping with a bunch of women. But that's so different from how evidence gets evaluated in science. You look at evidence,
you look at multiple studies. Do they agree, do they disagree, Look across the balance of all of the evidence to reach conclusions based on the evidence that's there, in a transparent evaluation of the methods that we're used to create those conclusions. It's much more boring than an Instagram real or a YouTube video. But that's how scientific conclusions get reached.
And I think that's maybe why it's so easy and feel so dangerous for people who have scientific authority due to their institutional positions and just take that over to Instagram and popular culture to start dispensing advice that is not within their area of experts.
Tea, Yes, And I think that, like that's the real scandal that I think the piece is trying to highlight. The scandal is not to me, like how he treated women badly in his personal life. It is that he enjoys this pedestal of like men of science and knowledge and enjoys all of the respect that comes with that, while also behaving in ways that are like really small and like maybe unethical and maybe like anti science, Like he wasn't trying to unlock the science of all of
us living our best lives. Like maybe he was a little bit, but it sounds like it was also an enterprise to personally enrich himself, get and control women and have fame. Like I said, small, that's not a super respectable you know man of science behavior that is like small man driven by desire and vice behavior.
Yeah, I mean if you were to, you know, take a stoic approach to it. One should be leading a virtuous life, and none of those sound very virtuous.
Ultimately, nobody likes to pursue vice and hedonism and you know, desire more than your girl right here, So I'm not judging, but to create an entire platform around the importance of discipline and avoiding this and avoiding that while you are
privately courting your version of those things yourself. Like I don't think he's somebody who is like preaching not drinking and then drinking alcohol, But he is somebody who preaches like avoid dopamine and then like clearly has these like dopamine driven relationships with women that are very chaotic based on lies. Like I think that's the scandal. The writer Justin Murphy put it really beautifully on Twitter. He writes
their Huberman story is not altogether trivial. The smartest men in every generation of Western history have generally converged on the idea that knowledge and cultivation involve a certain conquest of the appetites. Obviously, men who are successful economically and socially are free to indulge their appetites, and often do.
The story is not surprising or informative if you are had Huberman pegged as playing primarily an economic and social game, The story is surprising and damning if you saw him as playing a game of knowledge and cultivation. It is not therefore a totally vacuous story, as many seem to be saying. In the eyes of any classically educated observer, it is a precipitous fall in the stock price of rationalist,
materialist utilitarian frameworks for living. For many people, Huberman was not just a purveyor of useful information, but an image of wisdom, an image of a cultivated man no longer obviously, except for the most naive, you could know everything there is to know about the body, and have all the followers in the world and not exceed the wisdom of the average twenty five year old man. The scandal of the story is not Huberman's immorality, which is common and generic.
The scandal is ethical, someone who is famous for having tremendous knowledge of how to live does not himself live in a.
Beautiful way common and generic. That's got a sting.
Yeah, I mean, I guess that's the disconnect that like people want to see who as this learned man of science and knowledge and cultivation which is so high minded and elevated. In reality, he's trying to get a check and get his dick wet. Like that is like generic and small minded. I can tell you a thousand other men I know who are the same way, trying to get the same shit. It's not like I'm not trying to demonize him for it, but let's call it what it is. And like I think from the article that
is like plainly what it is. And I guess ultimately the question is, like does this matter? Here's where the Naric magpiece leaves it. There is an argument to be made that it does not matter how a helpful podcast or conducts himself outside of the studio. A man unable to constrain his urges may still preach dopominergic control to others. Morning Sun still remains salutary. The physiological side employed by this writer many times in the writing of this essay,
continues to affect calm. That's one of his trademark tactics, is a specific side that's supposed to calm you down. The large and growing distance between Andrew Huberman and the man he continues to be may not even matter to those who buy questionable products he has recommended and from which he will materially benefit, or listeners who imagined a man in a white coat at work in Palo Alto.
The people who definitively find the space between fantasy and reality to be a problem are women who fell for a podcaster who professed deep, sustained concern for their personal growth, and who, in his skyrocketing influence, continue to project an image of earnest self discovery. It is here in the false belief of two minds and synchronicity and exploration that
deception leads to harm. They fear it will lead to more. So, Yeah, what a piece, beautifully written, And I think that's kind of the so what these women are just raising the alarm that this guy who is trafficking off as his scientific credentials is maybe actually not who he says he is, and the public should know if he's going to be a guru, there should be some transparency around that.
Yeah, you know, anybody who's stands up and says I have the answer, it is reasonable to inspect how they live their life.
More. After a quick break, let's get right back into it.
So a lot of Huberman supporters are really digging in and defending him. Maybe those are just the loudest ones. Maybe people who were like casual listeners of his podcast are like, I don't know, like that article seems fair.
Who cares? It is so interesting really, because you know, I wonder if a lot of the people who listen to Huberman really identified with him, or maybe his lifestyle was like really aspirational to them, and so when he is being called out in this way, maybe they feel personally threatened and that is why they are coming to his defense so specifically, like Lex Friedman was like, he is a personal friend of mine and this is a hit job. Again, I was not able to read Lex
Friedman's entire statement because he has me blocked. But this idea that because you are a listener of his podcast or even like, let's like, you know, him personally that you would know the intimacies of his romantic life and how he shows up sexually and romantically, Like I have plenty of close friends and I don't know the ins and outs of how they get down sexually and romantically, and I I would never pretend that I did, right, Like, I find it really interesting how many people are so
loudly coming to his defense, Like I follow and enjoy plenty of podcasters that I don't personally know. There is not one of them that I can think of that I would read like a long, critical, deep dive into their work and their history and their values that I wouldn't come away thinking like, oh, maybe they had a few points to see people summarily dismissing this as a hit job to defend Huberman like he is someone they know.
And it's interesting how this has become this kind of culture wars thing where it's like, Oh, they're just attacking him for no reason, and I'm not even gonna lie, like it's all bunk, right, and so like they're not even engaging with the pieces of the article that are not about his romantic life, right, Like the way that he talked about that colleague of his that was a woman. That's not about his romantic life. His relationship with ag
One and supplements, that's not about his romantic life. Like the questions about his own myth making and his background, that's not about his romantic life. Though. Are those not questions that need answers and deserve scrutiny for somebody who is bolstering themselves as a public guru.
Yeah, it's not surprising that it has sort of been framed and is being talked about as yet another culture war of us versus them. I think another lens that we can look at it is earlier we made an analogy to conspiracy theories, where his scientific rationale behind this or that solution is often like cherry picked. It'll be like a germ of truth in there, but then build this elaborate, just so story around it that it sounds like a lot of cases leads to the conclusion that
you should buy some product that he's selling. And similarly, here his followers, I suspect a lot of them are true believers. When confronted with a critical piece like this New York mag article, just reject it right the same way that when you present somebody who believes in the conspiracy theory. With evidence that refuse that conspiracy, they will in most cases just double down, and the conflicting evidence is somehow reinterpreted in a way that makes them believe
in the conspiracy even more strongly. It feels like there's something similar going on here as well.
Well, I can tell you who a lot of his defenders are saying is behind this hit piece, Big Pharma. Big Pharma doesn't like that Andrew Kuberman is preaching the powers of meditation and sunlight and ice baths and supplements. They want us all hooked on the Big Pharma machine. And that's why New York mag is like writing this like well researched while written take out of his life.
Yeah, they're just a front for Big Pharma. I'm no big fan of the pharmaceutical industry. They do lots of like pretty shady, harmful stuff, no question, But in this case, yes, dismissing this piece as a hit piece by Big Pharma, I feel like George Soros is just like one step away in that causal chain of dismissive logic.
Oh totally And side note like I feel like whenever like this is a hit piece, an attack job, by Big Pharma whenever that is the go to line of defense. It really tells me a lot about the audience that the person has cultivated, because that was the same thing that they used to defend Joe Rogan when people like me were pointing out his use of misinformation in the podcast space. They were like, Oh, like, he isn't down with the COVID vaccine, He's interested in alternatives to curb COVID,
so Big Pharma had to take him down. I feel like that tells me so much about the audience that you have cultivated and what they are about and what they value what they don't value.
Yeah, cause it's not just listen to me, I have the answer. It's also don't listen to anybody else. They're trying to deceive you.
And anybody who says anything critical about what the person is saying, they're not just wrong, they are like in the pocket a Big Pharma. Again. It's that total conspiratorial thinking that it's like they don't just have a difference of opinion, it's like on the farious plot. So in the fallout of all of this, people are really trying to come for the person who wrote the article, who is new York mag writer Carrie Howley, who I love.
Carrie is writing like if you ever see a deep dive written by Carry, go ahead and click it immediately. One of those writers that if anybody ever calls me and is like, I'm fact checking a piece by Carry Howley, I'd like to ask you a few questions, I will be very concerned.
Yeah, but can confirm it is so well written. It was like a joy to read, even like setting the content aside, just the pro the writing. It was refreshing, It was really nice.
Yeah, totally agreed. So I hate to see Kerrie being attacked in this way. Huberman retained the crisis PR firm called Scale Strategy. Fun fact, Scale Strategy is brought to us by one of the guys who handled the disastrous We Work IPO and was fired soon after. So one of the folks who might be on Huberman's crisis PR
campaign to navigate the fallout of this article. Something else I have seen is that a lot of his loudest defenders are saying, well, if Huberman has been juggling hot women this effectively, it means that the methods that he preaches on the podcast must be effective. Like he's really like a masculine guy. That they're applauding what he has been accused of doing, and that makes him more likable in their eyes. And that is what I mean. Like, that's the thing that I think that we're not coming
right out and saying directly. I think that casual misogyny and sexism and gaslighting women and demanding submission of women. I think all of this stuff isn't something that the audience that he has cultivated is it all bothered by. In fact, quite the opposite. I think to them, this is a feature, not a bug. I think that they like this. I think that like the way he is accused of treating these women is not removed from the
content that he makes on the podcast. I think it's all one big, intricate, quilled and I think it's all related.
Yeah, And the fact that they aren't more bothered by the deception that is at the very root of it is worrisome and unfortunate. You know, people can have different ideas about what dating and relationships and life should look like. But I feel like most people that I know in my personal life, even people who like have different political and social views than me, most people agree that deception
is bad and you shouldn't use it. And it feels like there's something going on where public figures get a pass on that that people would not allow peers or acquaintances in their everyday life.
Oh my gosh. I mean, I would argue that we are kind of in a golden era of scammers, where people are willing to close their eyes to the way that the people that they follow, the people that they have upheld as aspirational, they are very willing to close their eyes to the way that those people are moving right in front of their faces in a way that
is deceptive. Like this is a weird analogy, but there's this young black Mormon treadwife influencer who is really famous for making videos of her like baking in ball gowns to show off how much money she has, like shopping
and blah blah blah. And I got into an argument on Threads with somebody, another black woman about this, and she was like, people are hating on her because they hate to see a black woman live a life of luxury, and like that's what she's doing and she's like being a good mom and people just hate to see that. When it's a black woman, and I was like, well, I'm a black woman, and I don't hate to see that, but this woman is a contact creator. The whole thing
is like artifice to make her money. This is just how she lives her life. It's by nature performative. So like, I wasn't like getting down on this woman, but I was just saying, like, let's be honest. If this woman is a contact creator, she is setting up a tripod and lighting and wearing a specific outfit to do something performative to make money. That's just what it is. And you would have thought that I called this woman a bad name. She was like, how dare you say that?
And I was like, it's obviously performative. I don't even think that the woman in the videos would be like, oh, this is a realistic depiction of my life as someone who makes food for my kids. Like I just couldn't believe that an adult would be so willing to play into the scam that is so obviously unfolding in front of her. Not to say this woman is scamming, but I was surprised to see an adult unwilling or unable to call this what it was, a money making inner.
Do you know what I'm saying, I do. Yeah, Like, why was it so important to her that this woman be deemed authentic and not performative? What is lost if you acknowledge the obvious truth that this is a performance to make money.
Yeah, it's a good question and maybe one for another episode. So, Bridget, I know that you like, this story really got you. You read a bunch of stuff. You kept writing and writing and writing and writing, and thank you for doing all that. Let's land this plane and bring it home. What is it about this story that really speaks to you?
I think the story speaks to me for a lot of reasons. I think the response it demonstrates how siloed and how charged everything is that you can't even you know, deal with this story on its merits or like out the pieces that you might think, like, well, well that's to be something that the only way that people who are detractors of it can engage with it is as a hitchub.
Two.
This is so maybe so petty, but like it bumms me out that this is what the podcast space looks like sometimes that it's like it's such a space where, through marketing and a certain kind of language and appeal, people can really build huge, powerful platforms that maybe when you look a little closer or are not so great, and maybe you look even closer, maybe they're a little
bit dangerous. And so I think that's my main takeaway is that I think that we all deserve good content, like if you care about what you put in your body. Part of that, I think is that we deserve like good information, and we deserve good information from people who are not liars. And it sounds like from reading this piece that Hubanman might be somebody who is so invested in personal myth making and brand building and enrichment that he might be someone who is at risk for their
platform causing some harm. And I think we got to look out for that.
Yeah, totally agree.
Well, Mike, you were in the document, my research document. When you saw it, it was five pages long, and then when you clicked in this morning you were like, oh, it's eleven pages. No, I could have kept going. Thank you for diving into all of this with me and listeners. I want to hear your thoughts. Are you a Huberman husband or someone a follower of Daddy Huberman that's what they call him on TikTok. I want to know. We can hit us up at Hello at tango dot com.
Yeah, I'm also so curious if you listen to our show and you also listen to Huberman's show, we would love to hear your take. I know that there's a lot of good people who get a lot of value out of his content, and so would just love to hear your take about this. Please let us know.
Agreed, hit us up.
Thanks for having me, Bridget.
Thanks Mike.
Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amado is our contributing producer. I'm your host,
Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.