Activision Blizzard's toxic workplace for women: STUFF MOM NEVER TOLD YOU

companies in the world. I joined my friends Samantha and Annie at the podcast stuff Mom Never told you to dig into what we know about how video game companies fail women and why it matters for all of us. And if you're a gamer, I want to hear from you. What is your experience as a gamer? Bent like, have you ever faced harassment while gaming? After you listen to the episode, let us know at Hello at tangodi dot com. Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm not going to Stephane

never told your production of iHeart Radio. Today we are once again joined by our good friend and the amazing, wonderful Bridget Todd. Thank you so much for joining us. Bridget Oh, thanks for having me. Y'all always give me the most warm welcomes. I love the intros because they're so happy to love you. We are so excited to have you. Yes, so Bridget, do you have any fun

things on the horizon, any plans coming up? Yes? Well, the most fun things I have on the horizon is that my partner and I do this thing every holiday season that we call weirdo Christmas, and we actually hope I think that everybody should should try it out. We're no Christmas is an activity that we do where after Thanksgiving, but before Christmas, we go on our own little solo trip just sort of, you know, half fun before the official holiday season, and we bring costumes and lights and

just have a weird time. And it's just a fun way to sort of if you're if you're from a traditional family that does Christmas in a very traditional way, can this be a fun way to counterbalance that? So weirdo Christmas coming up? Very excited? Oh? I love it. What kind of costumes you got? Planned? Mind? The last time I but we did this, I wore a fur hat and a fur vest and fur boots. It was

like a fur theme. Double down on the fur again into yeah, I encourage people to like whatever you know, your weirdness looks like, just because people are like weirdos or non traditionalist doesn't mean that we can't also enjoy like holiday cheer and festivity and so um. I used to always feel a little alienated around Christmas time, you know, I felt like if I wasn't doing something super traditional around the holidays, and like you basically didn't have any

way to celebrate. And that's not true, because you can

all celebrate your Christmas. I love this. Yeah, I will say like, as a person who does not love the holidays in general, doing something completely off the cuff, it sounds better, especially if you can establish it yourself, I will say eighty And I seem to do kind of that for New Year's where we dress up as something random, like I have a couple of onesies that I like to put on, and we will cheers each other through whether it's like us pictures or text, but we're wearing

costumes usually. I don't know why, we just kind of like we give up on going out, let's do this instead. I think it's because New Year's is such a I've had great New Year's, but generally I feel like the pressure is very intense and it's always a mess, and so I was kind of like, I want to stay in. I'm going to read my fan fiction. And then it became we'll wear onesies and drink champagne at midnight and

cheer it's each other. See. I love that because just because you're not somebody who is interested in spending hundreds of dollars to have a you know, less than stellar night on New Year's Eve, doesn't mean that you should get to miss out on like New Year's Eve holiday merriment.

Like that's exactly this in the spirit of weirdo Christmas, that you should, like not wanting to do the traditional thing that everybody does doesn't mean that you should just be boxed out of getting to, you know, have festivity in merriment. So I like this, we need to we need to roll in. We'll do We're no Christmas, We're no New Year's hopefully well this calendar going, yes there, we want to be a Google calendar, let's go. I

love it. I think we should sell one. So I also wanted to before we dive into this topic, which I'm both very excited and very like anxious slash nervous slash angry to talk about I wanted to talk about I'm I'm a very big gamer. I think a lot of the listeners know that always played video games, and I've always played, in quotes traditional video games, being like Nintendo Supernintendo PlayStation, like those kind of console video games, and I have a lot of history and experience with that.

But I wanted to ask the both of you what your experience with gaming at large, not just console gaming is. I've always thought that was the one of the coolest things about you, Annie, is how into console game and you are. I wish that I was. I aspired to be. I don't really play much these days. When I was younger,

I really liked the world of Warcraft. Going back even further, I was very much into like Super Nintendo when the when the pandemic first started, we got one of those I guess what you an emulator, I don't know what you call it, but like to be able to play old Sega games and old Supernintendo games on our TV. And I remember I was like, oh my gosh, how much I loved, how much I loved and was obsessed with those growing up. But these days not not so much.

I'm so curious, say on what your relationship to daming has looked like. Um, I would be the boomer who did not understand and does not understand these games, to the point that I still ask both Annie and my partner like, Okay, so the point of this game is A B C D and then just sit there and look at them puzzled. I do this a lot because I still have to ask, especially when it comes to console games, a lot of questions. I never really grew

into that really cared about it much growing up. I did buy a switch during the pandemic because I was like, oh, well, I can play these games. So these games being Mario Party, where essentially it's just kind of a chance, and I get very mad at everyone about it because they all cheat. I'm pretty sure Mario Kart. Same thing. I do like to announce how many times I fall off, because again I don't quite understand the buttons. Uh. Same thing with

any of those kind of things. But I do enjoy to an extent until I'm frustrated that I'm like, I don't know what y'all are doing. You keep telling me to push, but this us in this that doesn't make sense my fingers don't do this. So that's how I feel about those games. But I've tried, I've got I've grown to like them more and more. But I am more of a phone game person, and I always have.

I did really enjoy I guess the really first big game that I played, and I know we're gonna talk a little bit about them, was Candy Crush that has since been taken off to make room for games that are the puzzle games that have a narrative in it, and and we've talked about it previously on a Monday Minty because those damn ads that we talked about that has those dramatic leaving somebody cheating on somebody murdering somebody. Apparently um had really reeled me into being like, what

is this game? I need to know? And to the point that I've tried to reel Annie in on at least one we talked about Lily's Garden and uh, Bridget, if you have a chance, I need you to play this game as well. The phone not a sponsor and it was created by a woman, So the woman did this whole game, and she did all of the programming behind it, and you can kind of tell by the

relationships in it. So I'm like, huh, it is definitely different than the other games where it's just like, oh, this girl looks like your typical white sorority girl who has all these stereotypes attached to her talking to a cute white boy. That's this This one is a little different. And I was like, well, and now I'm really caught up in it. So that is my gaming expertise. And Annie had to tell me that this was gaming because I was like, no, I don't. I don't what. I

don't know what you're talking about. I just stay on my phone. Yes, I mean, that's so funny. Where do you think this idea that playing of you if you like quote just play on your phone, that you're not actually gaming? Like, where did that attitude come from? I think it came from Let's see if I can condense this.

So in the eighties, toys were gendered, and video games were coming out at that time, and they got put into boys toys because the marketers at the time thought um that they would have more success in that category. It fit more into that category, and so it became a like boys arena, and therefore, like any girl entering into that space, and I speak from experience, was seen as sort of like an anomaly and like, why are you coming in here? This is like are you trying

to trick us into thinking that you're good? Or look how cute she thinks she can do this, or like once you get older, are you trying to get a date? And so I think it became a very like boys space, and so that became serious gaming. And so when phone games came out and everybody who had a phone had more access to it, and especially women were coming in and playing, that became like, that's frivolous gaming. That is not gaming. I I being the boy who was growing up with this. Um, I am the c as gamer

and this is what gaming is. I think it's another example of gate keeping around that that makes me so sad. It is very tragical. I will say, I am in level three thousand something. Look at this, this is a pro We got a pro on here. You should demand respect so that this is what I do rather than spending time with people. Well, and just to add to that before we get into this, for a long time, the kind of running commentary around this has been most

gamers are men. But when you add in phone games like games in my opinion, but yes, phone games, then it does you towards women. But as in the last two years, I believe even quote serious gaming or console gaming, more women play than men. So I think we really got to reframe our thoughts around what a gamer looks like. Definitely, And I think it really speaks to sort of the

dark arts of marketing. You see this all over tech, where the demographic that is being marketed to and thus sort of creating this perception of they're the main the biggest demographic like that that has done so much bad stuff in terms of making these different industries and across technology look like who is who actually makes them up?

Like who is actually in them? And so even while women are are making up this lie and share of people who are gaming, marketing still would have you believe that that's not true, right, whether we the way that we are, perceptions of it is still so warped and it doesn't actually you know, align with the reality of who is actually in this demographic, right, And I think even in the games that are getting made and how women are portrayed in a lot of those games, they

would very much lead you to believe that men are the intended audience and the preferred audience. Let's talk about what you brought today, bridget as infuriating as it is very important to talk about and really ongoing situation, which is what is going on with Activision Blizzard. Yeah. So I'm so glad that you grounded this and the idea that it is ongoing. This is a current conversation. Uh the first came on my radar over the summer m but it is completely ongoing and just last week, you know,

new updates in it. So essentially, the gaming company, Activision Blizzard, they're under fire for allegations the company has fostered a really toxic workplace where their women's staffers are mistreated and harassed and I'm just not treated equally. And last week new reporting from the Wall Street Journal has really shed new light on these allegations. And you know, last week the staff has been mobilizing, they had to walk out.

And so I think, you know, when we think about different arenas and technology, some some people who don't game might be listening with this and think like, oh, well, big deal, who cares, But particularly as more and more young people are finding themselves on online worlds and online platforms built by by, you know, gaming companies. It is really important to think through like how are these how are these games where so many young people are spending their time, how do they come to be? What kind

of cultures are they coming up in? UM? And so that's one of the reasons why I think this this story is such a big deal. Activision Blizzard is also just a big deal as a company. There are a major gaming company. They produce Candy Crush, Call of Duty, Overwatch, in the world of Warcraft, so major games, and uh, it's probably I think it's I think it in at least it was the biggest gaming company in both the

United States and Europe. So like, not only is it an important story in terms of the culture these games are being produced in, it's also a major business story because we're talking huge global companies and the climates that these big companies foster can really make a difference in the industry and like what the industry is Like, Yeah,

they're they're hugely influential. They make like billions and billions of dollars, and yeah, having such a big player in that space does ripple out and impact all these other UM players in that space, and I know, like I've read some of the stories of people women who have worked at these companies and it's just terrific And to like have them be so excited because they grew up playing games or they it was really important to them and to be so excited to get this opportunity, and

then it's just awful the amount of harassment, uh they faced, which have started coming out over the past few years, right yeah, so um. There was a two year investigation

but concluded in July. The California Department of Fair Employment and Housing felt a lawsuit over the summer alleging sexual discrimination, harassment, and like a general kind of frat boy culture at ACT division Lizard and the investigation down that the company discriminated against female employees in both arms and conditions of employment, um, including compensation, assignment, promotion, in termination, and that company leadership

consistently failed to take steps to prevent discrimination, harassment, and retaliation. And like you were saying when you get into some of the specific stories of the kinds of things that went on here, Like one of the allegations that was made was that the men at the company would often do these things called cube crawls, in which male employees would drink copious amounts of alcohol as they crawl their way through various cubicles in the office and engage in

inappropriate behavior towards female employees. Like, imagine if that was just the thing that happened in your workplace, right that, Oh, just it's Thursday. Obviously the male staffers are all gonna get really drunk and crawl on their hands and knees into my office and harass me while I'm trying to work. Like some of the allegations are that have come out are just so horrifying, and it's like, I can just

just like what you were saying. I can imagine being so excited to work at a company that is so influent menial in the gaming space and then get there and be like, oh, actually I have to put up with the most degrading behavior just to do my job here. Right.

It sends a really clear message of whether like the company culture and who belongs and who doesn't, and like what the kind of status quo how they view you is someone who it's okay to her ask like your job is not important um or that you are kind of that outlier that you know, why are you here. Is it to get a man or to just for us to to kind of all go and harass at

your job? Okay, I'm thinking like, I wonder how much it took for them to even get an interview to go through how and we've talked about how in general, women when they apply for anything, they have to be sure like they are qualify before they even attempt it, so making sure that they are able to prove that they can work there, and then going through all of a who's because they have to do so much more than men typically, and within a business like this, you

have to do even more to prove that you are worthy and knowledgeable of these things, and then coming into their and being dismissed as if you were an intern. Not that intern should be treated this way either, but essentially as if you're coming to learn instead of being a professional and be like, hey, I'm here, and then watching this nonsense like I would. That makes me want to throw things. For Yes, it's curiating, and there are some of the details coming out. I'm just like, wow,

somebody somewhere thought this is acceptable, like um. In one example, an Activision employee had for years just signed his email signature on all and you know in this in this Wall Street Journal podcast that broke these broke these new allegations, she makes this good point. You know, so if you're a woman, you would get an email and just be like, this is normal. It is normal to get an email

that has this sign off. And then to make things worse, this employee worked there for a month, right, Like, they took a month for them to fire this employee, and they had an investigation, and we're gonna be it's like, what was there even to investigate investigation? Even look like you're like right there, here's the email. Either go ahead and discipline them, or why are we waiting a month? Right? Um? And then like the saddest thing is this is pretty sad.

So like, if you're someone who you know it has has a difficult time talking about suicide, I'm sorry to proport that this is something that happened. Um. The suit also points that a female Activision employee died by suicide

while on a company trip with her male supervisor. The employee had been subjected to intense sexual harassment prior to her death, including having nude photos of her passed around at a company holiday party and you know, I think that just really underscores the seriousness of what was going on and the seriousness of the of the toxic culture that was happening at Activision that somebody died by suicide with in regards to it, Yeah, yeah, and and because

as we said, this is ongoing, like it's not like something happened something tragic like this happened and then they fixed it. It was, oh, you know, we've known this has been going on. This is sort of the accepted culture. Let's move on from this. And that's been one of the most frustrating, Like all of it's really upsetting, but that's been one of the most frustrating things is it's like all of these instances over and over and over, and it seems that they just really could care less.

They're like, all right, let's just wait for this publicity to blow over. They'll be fine, and we'll continue as as we've done, and that's acceptable to them. Yeah, that is the message that I think they're putting out. I think, just just like you, when I heard about this employee who died by suicide, I thought, certainly this will be this, Like it's obvious to anyone that big chain is are necessary,

a change in leadership, a change in culture. This is not the kind of thing that I think training or you know, bringing in a counselor is going to help. And then I was really surprised to see that, you know, initially the company was saying, like, these reports aren't true. It just showed it just showed me that they weren't

taking it very seriously. So when these allegations first surfaced in the summer activision, CEO Bobby Cootick he denied the allegations, saying that the lawsuit allegations were inaccurate, adding that the picture that the lawsuit paints is not the Blizzard workplace of today. But the staff really say otherwise, and so a lot of them put the blame squarely on his shoulders, as like the CEO of this company, the seat, the person who is overseeing all of this like really toxic stuff.

And what's really upsetting to me is that initially Bobby Kotick was denying that he had any knowledge of this kind of conduct happening, right. Uh, he was like, I have no awareness of this. I didn't know this was happening, And it wasn't until after this lawsuit came out that in October, he eventually apologized to the staff and agreed to pay eighteen million dollars in settlement with federal regulators and pledged to take steps to improve have a company

treats employees. And so you might think, you know, okay, like that's the end of the story, Like they paid the money, they apologized, they pledged to do better. But this is where the story is continuing, because the Wall Street Journal reported that not only did he know about

this behavior, he was an active participant himself in this behavior. Um. And so what's really funny is that in his kind of apology tour, he was like, now, Blizzard is going to have a zero tolerance policy against this kind of behavior, but that he had to specifically note that that policy was not inclusive of his own behavior. And he was like, oh, well it's zero tolerance, but like not for me. You know,

It's all good. Yeah, I mean I know, like, um, players have have kind of spoken out and you know, said done like strikes where they won't play, and the workers have spoken out. But still still, uh, this guy is still around despite like a lot of allegations coming

out against him. Oh yes, so some of the allegations against him, specifically, according to The Wall Street Journal, over the years, Mr Kotick himself has been accused by several women of mistreatment, both inside and outside of the workplace. In some instances, he has worked to settle those complaints quickly and quietly, so a couple of the specific allegations.

In two thousand and six, he reportedly harassed one of his assistants, including threatening and a voicemail to have her killed with imagine if your boss was like, I'll have you killed. If I know it's shocking, Yes, yes, I mean a lot of It's one of those things that you read about this that there's almost a part of you that's like, can't be real, But in the back of your head you're like, no, unfortunately, I think it is.

I mean, this is kind of like a big part of narcissists and that could power you see these levels like that they think they're untouchable, as well as the fact that no, just saying that it's actually a felony. That is a felony. But congratulations, you have money and I'm assuming he's white, you can move. Oh he is. It's funny because he's almost like in some of these reports, he kind of comes off as like a mega wealthy,

like mega powerful super villain. Uh, you know. In two thousand and seven, he allegedly told a private jet flight attendant who was suing him for sexual harassment committed by the pilot of his private jet, I'm going to destroy you. I feel like telling a flight attendant on your private jet, I'm going to destroy you is some like Mr Burns

level powerful narcissist run amuck with power and money stuff. Yeah, oh yeah, And I mean I can just imagine like if he, you know, has played video games that he sees himself as like the hero of this story or like the powerful I can do anything because I have like ascended every level in this video game that is this company that I run, and I can treat people

however I want. Yeah, in my mind, I'm seeing like a Harvey Weinstein of this industry because that's exactly what he would do with women that would just say no to him. And in my mind, this seems to be what he is doing with women. If he's threatening them, they're willing to go to harm them whatever they There's no telling what he has actually done that people are not speaking out about Yet that's such a good point,

and I think that Harvey Weinstein comparison is apt. And I do think that the kind of things that he's being accused of, I think really illustrate a just a particular kind of view of women. That we men are around to serve you and to do whatever you want them to do, and that the idea that like a woman would say no to you, the idea that a woman who works on your private jet would sue you for the behavior of your of your pilot. You know.

I think that the way that he responds to these women, it just really illustrates a very particular kind of view of women, just as they there to be in service of powerful men, regardless of what their actual role is um in the organization. And so another thing to point out is that I believe the only so like in terms of that voicemail where he told his assistant that he would have her killed, he's through a spokesperson, he said that he immediately apologized for that incident and that

that he regretted it. I think the only reason that he said that is because it's on a voicemail. I think that if there was not, you know, audio of him saying it so we can't deny it. He I don't think you ever would be like, oh yeah, I definitely said that. I regretted it. I apologized. You know this that in the third I mean, the only reason you did that is because she You know, if it's a voicemail, you have proof, right right? Yeah, I think

so too. And I think again, this is like my very personal experience, but I have had a lot of run ins with some real nasty gamer bros. And I feel like a lot of like what you were saying, bridget of like seeing women in a certain way. I think there's a lot of like really um condescending, like oh she's so cute, Oh she's so cute. She thinks she can like threaten me, or she thinks she can come into this world Like I'm only she's only here

because I'm letting her be here. She ignored. If she annoys me, if she does something I don't like, then like I will threaten her with violence, like immediately get her out or find a way to silence her. Um. Because yeah, I do think a lot of it is like she only exists here because I allow her to exist here, which is very, very toxic and gross. I mean,

how do you even as a gamer yourself? How do you continue to show up and put yourself out there, even if you're playing with someone who seems accommodating and nice and like maybe they're like, you know, a feminist, but to know in the back of your head if I do something that he doesn't like, he could flip on me and turn on me, and I would I would see this other side. How do you continue to

show up and put yourself out there knowing this? Um? Yeah, I mean that's that's the what really breaks my heart about a lot of this because I stopped online gaming when I was twelve because I had already at that point received enough threats in harassment that it was not worth it for me, and it became such a scary experience.

And I know that this has changed, but for a while, like the Xbox Live guidelines had a bullet point in there that was like, if you're being her ass, you can leave, essentially like not addressing the problem, but being like, uh, you know it's going to happen, so too bad. I do still. I do still play, but it's much more like I played by myself or with friends that I know, I do have. When I was in college, I went to a technical college and um I entered a Super

Smash Brothers tournament and I won five hundred dollars. But every other competitor, which you can all bet they were all men, and some of them were my friends, did flip out on me and they were like, you cheated. There's no way she could not have one. That is impossible. And I was like, people were watching, man, she you just didn't think I was a threat, so you didn't come at me, and you all die, right, They all killed each other, which was my tactic, but it doesn't

work anyway. But you know, we talked about the story actually just this weekend, Annie and I and just talking about how men in general in these gaming worlds really don't see women as threats, or if they are threats is because they are too sexual and or something or for their gay So for the male gays in general, uh, And I was thinking about that with like feminist frequency. They are established because they're trying to protect the women in this industry and those who are non binary or

those who identifies women like they are really trying. But even to this day and when I look at when they do fundraisers or when they have like things live.

The amount of harassment just for existing to help women is incredible, and the amount of just trolls coming at them today when I'm like, oh my god, have you not been listening to the fact that the growing number of women who love gaming a b who are actually here helping you, whether it's helping programming these new games that you're really into and developing these new characters that you're really into, but you don't want to acknowledge. It's such a whole level of like, why why do you

hate women so much? Why does this industry continue to foster a place of hate against women because things like Twitch is still having complaints about, hey, you need to control the level of harassment that is happening, but because of you being silent, nothing is happening. Absolutely, And I think it speaks to Annie's point about this idea of like,

if you don't like it, you can leave. I think that there's a misconception that women who game are sort of putting themselves in a position to be harassed, and if they don't want to be harassed, they should leave. And it leaves out this idea of like well, women shouldn't have to be harassed just to play games, right, And I think that for a lot of these women who work in activision, I think the attitude is, you know, we're working at a at a BREWI video game company,

what did you expect? Like it really puts the onus on people who have been harassed and survivors to get themselves out of situations that they should not be in the first place. And I think that's exactly it's like a cultural attitude that really blames survivors and blames victims for you know, systems that they did not create that leads to them being harmed, and you know it. It

is sam to your point. I do think that we all know that games are better, more inclusive, more interesting when they're built by inclusive teams, and so your products can only be more engaging if women are around to

help design it. Like you were talking about how Lily's Garden is a more fun game for you because you can tell it was, you know, put put together by a woman, and it's better than the games where you can tell this is designed by a team of men who probably don't know any women, and you know, no sense of like what a woman is going to want from a game like this, right, And so we know that things are better when women are are included and

valued and supported and championed. And it makes me sad that the gaming industry just can't get it together to you know, reflect that reality. You know. The biggest question to me is like, if you are a company that wants to grow and truly are looking to make money, why wouldn't you want more people? If you all, do you really want to just cater for half the population when you can have the whole population? Hello, I really think they hate women that much. Honestly, I don't think

they want them in their audience. And I say that as someone who loves games, and I played plenty of games made by women who were great and really inclusive, and I played games made by men that are great and really inclusive. But I feel like the industry at a whole, especially this like console gaming level, they are so resistant to it, and they're just like I think they don't like, they don't want women in their audience because they think it will mean the value of their products.

And I think also they're so afraid of pissing off. They're very angry because This is another note I want to make. When they harass you, it's like threats to kill you are rape you. It's not like, right, hey, you suck. It's like I'm going to find your address

and send it to people like right, it's scary. It jumps to this, I'm going to rape you, unharm you in a way that I know it is going to violate you and make you know that I'm a man, right, which is in a self whole level that honestly, all of this just again kind of talks about when when you were talking about this industry in general, about being

a fat club or a good old boy club. And I see that continuously when you see the higher ups being just friends of theirs coming up with the same damn attitude that may have a lesser record or the lesser known record than the previous person, which is so like, then you're just fostering once again more of this nastiness that you are saying you want to prevent. Now, Oh, I completely agree, it's such it's such a vicious toxic cycle.

I don't actually know if I believe that some of these places can be reformed or improved without massive structural changes, like reading the Blizzard statement where they're like, oh, we're bringing in a counselor, or we're bringing in uh, you know, we're gonna do more training. I don't think that these men need to be trained to know that signing your emails one is not professional. I don't I don't think.

I don't think that that's going to cut it. I don't think that like a training is going to be the thing to to, you know, help men in this company understand that crawling into your female coworkers office all drunk to harass her is not acceptable workplace behavior. And so I'm really curious if this can all be improved.

But it sounds to me so toxic from the very very top, you know, the CEO, to the guys who are playing the games threatening to murder you, and the platforms being like that's okay, that is that is you know, if that that's part of gameplay. If you don't want to be involved in that, don't play the game. Like there are just so many levels to how bad it

is that it can be very dismaying. And I do wonder too, like when you talk about them saying we're gonna bring in counselors, We're going to teach these tactics and we're gonn to talk about you know, workplace safety and all this. But I'm like, who are you really keeping safe? If the people that have made this place unsafe still exists there, then who are you truly keeping safest? Not the victims. The victims have to be there with them.

The victims who have been threatened by these people, are harassed by these people, are continually told, you know, all of these nasty comments by these people, and all you're doing is keeping them there, those perpetrators, And you're like, but we're gonna help them and spend money on them.

Who are you keeping safe? And that's that's like a common thing up and down tech that I cannot stand where even when somebody is like confirmed to be a harasser or an abuser, or you know, somebody who has abused their power, a lot of times these companies will go out of their way to praise them or give them like lucrative exit packages on the way out the door.

And it makes me like, boils my blood. It enrages me. So. A former Blizzard technology chief Ben Kilgore, was fired in after an investigation into most able allegations of sexual harassment. But he was thanked quote for his many contributions over the last four and a half years in an email by his then boss. And what kind of messages that

send somebody who is fired for sexual harassment? Uh not, Like clearly the company it was like, okay, these you know this happened, we have to take action to fire him. Is really necessary to praise him on the way out? And what kind of signal do you think that is sending to the people that he harassed and the people who have to work there after he leaves. Yeah, yep, I get some extra money and he did a great job.

Just ignore all that other stuff. Is cool. And this was like in the face of wasn't it thirty employees saying that they had experienced some type of harassment? That's right. Female employees in their E sports department sent an email to department head saying that they had been subject to unwanted touching, to meeting comments, exclusion from important meetings, and

unsolicited remarks about their appearance. And again, uh, Cochick was aware of this email because he was one of the people who got this email, and so him saying publicly like I'm not aware of any of these obligations. I've never seen anything like this in my company. Blah blah blah. It's just a lie. It's a way to save face, and it to me makes it seem as though the company is not really invested in or interested in cleaning

any of this up. They're interested in making a pr problem go away and interested in, uh making shareholders feel good and feel, you know, like the company is in good hands. I don't think they actually care about the fact that they're they're people in their employee are are

going through this just to do their jobs. Yeah. No, I totally agree, and I feel like a lot of it, to me gives the vibe of like really actually wanting to hold on to this culture and the way they've been able to treat women and believing in so far very unfortun nearly it seems that it's working, but that

people will just forget it and move on. That's not to say the employees haven't been really especially lately like coming together and speaking out, which is amazing and I really appreciate it and I know how hard that is, um, But yeah, I I've felt like their whole thing is at least the higher ups are like I'd want to continue as is. Let's just way put to blow over. It's gonna be fine. Yeah, And you know, to your point about it seems like they want to keep this culture.

You said something earlier that kind of sparks something in my mind, which is, we know that the most extreme violent gamer dudes out there are like pretty scary and pretty like I guess, very into the things that they're into, and we've seen before when that when those when folks like that feel like something that they are entitled to is taken away from them. You know, there are so

many different instances and pop culture. When they made a reboot of Ghostbusters with women, like, they're taking Ghostbusters away from me. When Star Wars cast women and people of color, it's like, oh, this institution that is mine is being

taken away from me. Part of me wonders if they feel like they don't want to make significant changes to this toxic, misogynistic culture precisely because they want their core the people that they're thinking of as their core user base, They want them to feel like, yeah, this toxic soup of culture that we've created here is still yours, Like like no one is coming to like wocify your video games at Blizzard, like we will continue to foster misogyny

and extremism and violence. That's a guarantee, you know what I mean? Right, Yeah, No, I think there is something too that I think there is some kind of like wink wink thing happening of like uh to their very angry, generally white male player base. You know, we're not going to give in to these feminists or these social justice warriors, like you know, we'll say something out loud, we'll do like a publicity thing, but between us, it's gonna be fine.

We're not gonna mess with anything, and we're going to keep providing you just for you the entertainment and as long as women are quiet and know their role and they can come in. But otherwise they're not welcome here. They have any problem with that, they can just leave. Oh exactly exactly, any problem at all, Like, well, then leave, It's fine, Samantha does I I have one of my favorite games that came out recently, The Last of Us Too, had featured a woman in the main role. Mostly women

game or dudes hated it. They hated it, and they sent like death threats to all the voice actors, all the creators. So it's not just like it's the player. It's impacting the player, but it's also impacting like companies and games that are trying to show these other stories, and that's just another way of silencing and and keeping it like no, it has to look this way and very gate kept, and and if so, you will receive a death threat. Like it's just very it's a very

toxic space in a lot of ways. It makes me so sad that, you know, companies like Activision are so big that they really can, like what they do can dictate the rest of the industry. And like you said, it's a top down thing. And so we're talking to voice talent, we're talking designers, we're talking women who write about games. Were like, the the impact that it can have when a major player cultivates this kind of toxicity and massage, Andy, I think it really knows no bounds.

And I'm really hurting to see staffers, you know, speaking up, folks within the company speaking up. Members Having teenth, a group of shareholders led by Union pension group the s o C Investment Group, called for the resignation of Activision CEO Bobby kotick Um and the retirement of two other members of the board UM. And the letter was also signed by you know, various kind of investment groups which focus on supporting women across industries and UM the like.

Rank and file staff themselves are really speaking up, trying to get QUO tick to resign. UM advocacy group a b K Workers Alliance recently published a document signed by five employees calling for Coote's removal s CEO UM. They said, we the undersigned no longer have confidence in the leadership of Bobby Kotick, a CEO of Activision, and they walked out in mass to to protest this. And I know that that is not easy. It's not easy to speak up in a company like this where it's already been

documented that retaliation is a thing that happens. And so kudos to these employees who were doing that, but it seems like we're right now. Unfortunately the board is sticking with this CEO. You know, they said that they have

confidence in him. And I think this is where things get a little bit business e because at a certain point, you know, you have these investors and shareholders in your company, and it's like I can understand why this guy's leadership is not inspiring confidence in your investment in this in this company. And it's like, like, I agree with you that they're thought they're doing some sort of wink wink

not non thing, but I think that they are. They should be beholden to their stakeholders and the staff who have to deal with this environment that they're cultivating. And it's like, I guess, I wonder where when does any kind of accountability come in, Like who are you accountable to?

And if not now when? Yeah? And I think that was one of the most galling things for the employees but also people who uh just been watching the situation is that they seems so out of touch with the statements they released after the walkout, like they clearly were kind of like not getting the point or purposefully skirting around the point. And then like there's a whole you know, I'm trying to go into right now. But there was a woman who was in charge of like the White

House communications during Bush and the Iraq War. She was in charge of the women's gaming board there of like making sure that their voices were heard, and she was like she tweeted something that was called the problem with the whistleblowing while all this was happening. Okay, so you're not really listening to us. Cool, cool, and like we've gone over some names already, but they were already Like those are not the only names of men at this

company that I've done really horrible things. Yeah, so it is, like like you said, and it is. It feels very overwhelming and it's so frustrating. I think we recently did an episode where there's a new survey came out, some new research came out and showed that like, over the past ten years, the situation has actually gotten worse, um in terms of representation in video games. I think this was specifically characters and storylines and stuff. But that's it.

Just it does feel like a lot and it feels like we are making a lot of progress, and I'm happy to see people speaking up about it. God we're talking about it. But yeah, it's with so much work to be done, absolutely, and I think, you know, it's sad that it doesn't seem like a lot us improving.

This month, the Anti Defamation League released a new study that shows that of young gamers experienced abuse or harassment while playing games, five out of six adults ages eighteen to forty five experienced harassment and online multiplayer games, representing eighty million adult gamers. Three out of five young people that age thirteen to seventeen experienced harassment and online multiplayer games, and seventy one of adult online multiplayer gamers experienced severe abuse,

including physical threats, stalking, and sustained harassment. So precisely the kind of thing that you were talking about dealing with when you were playing in these kinds of games, and again not surprising, the largest increases in identity based harassment occurred among adult respondents identified as women, black or African American and Asian American. And so it's just bad. It

doesn't sound like a like a safe environment. And I think given that so many young people are having formative experiences in these environments, these companies owe it to them to figure out a way to foster safety and actual community in the gameplay experience, but also in the in the companies, in the boardrooms where these games get made. Like it all at all to me is kind of one big bucket. And I really think like the industry has got to make some very very big changes if

anything is going to get better. Yeah, and I would like to add on here because I think sometimes this gets lost in this discussion. But you know, you hear in the media all the time like video games are bad for your braid or might cause violence, especially just a lot of says that show, um they can help with things like PTSD, they can they have positive impacts.

And I know listeners have written in and said, you know, for one reason or the other, I have social anxiety or whatever the case may be, and I really found this online community and it was so important for me, and this gaming was so important for me and in helping with whatever it is. And so like, all of

this is bad and we should fix it. But I also does have like real as I feel like we always make this point, and I think it's always important to make, but there's real world impacts of these things on your health and on your the communities you can form, and even how you feel about yourself. Um So I do think, yeah, this is really really important conversation, right, And I just want to add this because I was

looking it up. I wanted to see as you were talking about the board of supporting uh CO check and I'm like, so, how many women are on the board. There's two one just recently, so not surprising, But then on top of that a new article saying that their solution instead of having him resign is to do a new committee, uh does a workplace responsibility committee and they're going to watch over the workplace and then talk to the directors who co take us a part of He's

a director on those board. So we're like, wait, they're not even looking at Why are they looking so far right when this the problem is right in front of them and this is their solution. Fantastic way to not read the room, guys, Way will not read the room. It's the other title for this episode. Third, It's like, I honestly think like parting ways with their CEO is like the least they can do spending more money and more time and more investment in like creating these kind

of bs toothless committees to do nothing. I think it's just it just shows how how they're not meaningfully interested in like actual change. It's just like like a band aid. And I've even a good band aid at that. You know, it's literally like, hey, they have told you what the problem is, this is the problem. Why are you doing non work to be like, oh we we don't know what the problem is. We're gonna we're gonna put another committee when they're like, no, it's clear there's a petition.

They've told you what could help just resolve what? Yeah, don't y'all read the Wall Street Journal, because there's a whole thing in here about what what's going on, Like safer money is by paper. I mean, this is the obvious. When you were talking to Annie of like, oh, no, okay, we're just gonna pretend like we don't want to understand it is sweeping under the rug. Then on, yes, yes, I have so many thoughts on this. Oh my, um,

but we should wrap it up for now. Thank you as always, Ridget for coming Where could the good listeners find you? Thank you for having me. This is always such a treat. If you're interested in more discussions on the Internet technology and how women and people who identify as women show up no spaces, you can check out my podcast There Are No Girls on the Internet. We just did a really interesting couple episodes all up out the Astro a world tragedy in Houston, so some truly

uh wild conspiracy theories coming out of there. So we have a really interesting episode with our researcher debunking them, so please check it out and you can follow me on Twitter at Bridget Murray or on Instagram at Bridget Murray in d C. Yes, and definitely do that if you haven't already. Listeners and bridget happy Weirdo Christmas man, I'm little happy weirdo Christmas to one at all. Yes, Yes, thank you for introducing us to this holiday, and thank

you listeners for listening. If you would like to contact us, you can or email Steffandi your Mom Stuff at I hurt media dot com. You can find us on Instagram and Stuff I've Never Told You are on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always, sure a super producer, Christina, thank you, Thanks to you for listening. Stuff I Ever Told The production by her Radio for more podcast on my Heart Radio I Heard you, app Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows the mo