EMDR Therapy and Burnt Quesadillas with Zach

Theme Song  0:05  
Therapy Roulette: Consent to Vent / Trauma disguised as comedy / Therapy Roulette: Consent to Vent / If you don’t have problems, then you’re likely repressing shit and you should find a therapist / (Who’s not me)

Michele Baci  0:21  
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Therapy Roulette: Consent to Vent. My name is Michele Baci, and this week I would like to remind you to follow me on social media. I post silly stuff, important stuff, stupid stuff. I try to joke a lot. You can find me on Instagram at Michele with one L that's M I C H E L E B A C I comedy. MicheleBaciComedy on Instagram. On Twitter, I'm just Michele Baci. On Twitter, I do get very personal and tell you too much about myself. So follow me there, if you want to know, weird things about me. I also tried to be funny, and, you know, political savvy, all that good stuff. And Therapy Roulette, the podcast, has a bunch of social media. You can follow us on Instagram at TherapyRoulettePod. On Twitter. We're just at Therapy Roulette. And we have a YouTube channel called Therapy Roulette, you might be watching me on YouTube right now, I'm going to start posting more YouTube content, more videos, we're going to move towards doing some episodes fully on YouTube. So we'll have video versions of the podcast episodes in addition to audio. And right now, there's a couple of these podcasts intros available on the YouTube channel, as well as some shorter clips. So check us out on YouTube, I'm gonna have fun with that, learning more about it. And you can also as listener, you can write into the pod and get involved. Our email address is at Therapy Roulette. Oops, there's no at the beginning of an email address. Our email address is Therapyroulette@gmail.com. And it works like a regular email. Just send me anything you want advice on, if you have a problem, and you just don't know what to do, you can tell me about it. And I'll give you my comedic amateur psychologists advice, having taken one or two psych classes in college, you could also write about a weird story, something you just don't know how to process and you want to share it with the world. I'll assume that you want to be anonymous unless you write in your email. Hey, tell everyone my name, you know, I want to be famous. If you tell me you want me to share your name, then I'll share your name. But otherwise, I'll keep you anonymous. Send me an email. What's been going on with me is I've realized I am struggling too much. Like I am severely not taking care of myself, I've been trying to sleep more. Because between working a day job, and working on the podcast, I'm like not sleeping much at all. I'm pulling late nights, and I'm

not getting more than like five or six hours of sleep sometimes, which is not enough for me. So I need to do a basic human thing and sleep more. I need to eat better for sure. I've been just kind of eating like salty junk food, because it's fast and easy and like, initially satisfying. So I need to eat better. more vegetables, more salads, more things in my body actually wants, I need to do more yoga and exercise more in the beginning of quarantine. Or even like until very recently, until a month or so go I was exercising pretty regularly, like on a lunch break. Or before or after work. I could fit in a workout doing a YouTube workout or just like a 10 minute, you know, weightlifting thing going on a walk around the block. And lately I just haven't been doing any exercise. I think I did 10 minutes a yoga last week and how is it so my body is falling apart. My bones are turning to dust. I have osteoporosis, self diagnosed. And you know, popping fish oil supplements can only do so much. So this is me telling you I'm going to take better care of myself. My doctor was like telling me the results of my bloodwork. And she was like you have bad cholesterol and he needs to start taking omega threes. And I'm like I know I know. I just don't have time. But you know, I have time I can do it. I can actually be good to my body. And then if I take care of myself, I will be a better person to my boyfriend to my loved ones to my friends and family to myself. Right now. I'm like a witch who is not fun which she's one of the evil witches Hocus Pocus style. This week on the podcast I talked to Zach, who is my boyfriend's brother. He is younger than I am. So he's definitely cooler, smarter more with it. He is a wise Zoomer of Gen Z We talk about EMDR therapy, and I had never heard of that before. So if you don't know EMDR therapy is, it stands for eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing therapy. It's a unique, non traditional form of therapy, designed to diminish negative feelings associated with memories of traumatic events. Unlike most forms of talk therapy, EMDR focuses less on the traumatic event itself and more on the disturbing emotions and symptoms that result from the event. Treatment includes a hand motion technique used by the therapist to guide the client's eye movements from side to side, similar to watching a pendulum swing. That's a general definition of EMDR. From Psychology Today, from Medical News Today calm. The theory behind EMDR is that traumatic memories make changes in the brain. These changes stop the mind from processing information properly, which causes anxiety and negative thoughts or intrusive thoughts. Experts believe that remembering the traumatic events while performing rapid eye movements, allows the brain to process these memories correctly, and integrate them into the story of the person's life. And I found that little blurb really interesting because it tells you why a person would seek out EMDR therapy if it's if they're trying to cope with PTSD, or they have very debilitating anxiety, or panic attacks that might be triggering common day events like shopping like shopping for groceries, doing the laundry and these like common things you do all the time, and you're just getting a panic attack or you can't deal with them. because something's triggering you EMDR can help you reprocess your triggers your PTSD into something you know how to cope with. So I would look into it if you have any symptoms of traumatic stress or stability, any anxiety or panic attacks. It can be helpful. When Zach and I talked we also talked about means a lot because I was asking him about social media and his habits on social media and he said he mostly used it to look at memes. And you know, I'm 29 years old. I don't know much about memes other than disturbing boyfriend. That one where the guy's like, looking over his shoulder at a hot girl walking by. I couldn't really give you the name of another meme. Anime boy with butterfly. So the other one I know. So I was looking at memes, dude, research on them. And I found out that there's like a lot of good press around depressing memes. Meaning that if you find yourself depressed, and sadly, feel alone, looking up depressing names might help you find a community of people who are also depressed and that might make you feel less alone. I found something on Google that it said something like these memes are intended for people with a dark soul. And I thought Ooh, if I was 15 I would totally click on that and be in a rabbit hole for the whole night. I have a dark soul. I wonder who else does and now you know, I'm 29 so don't have time to be in a rabbit hole online all night and it just gonna fuck up my day. But, um, I came across an article titled The sad truth about about depressing memes on study breaks calm. Otis roffman writes, though by no means a solution for mental illness humor is an effective coping strategy for pain. Someone might see a meme accurately describing a feeling they struggle with and realize they aren't alone. The vast majority of depressive depressive memes aren't so harsh and do simply give away to people to articulate and laugh about their more challenging emotions online. The rise of depressing names has also been accompanied by the wholesome meme, reflecting the tender side attender side of the internet previously unseen. If nothing else, the simultaneous popularity of both names wholesome and depressing is indicative of a growing willingness to be more vulnerable and open about emotion. And I thought that was so cool means or allowing people to be more vulnerable their emotions. They're allowing people to find communities online and open up like it could be really important in a time like this. So we're so isolated, and trapped inside our homes. So if means appeal to go out and make them go out and share them. It seems like a cool art form that I would like to learn a little bit more about, but not go. not go too deep because I know my, you know, I'm already addicted to Twitter, so I can't get too deep into memes. Today's guest is Zack awai Zoomer, who talks about his personal experience with EMDR therapy, and his meme and take on social media. I'd like to welcome to the podcast, Zach

Theme Song  9:54  
Therapy Roulette: Consent to Vent / Trauma disguised as comedy 

Michele Baci  9:59  
Zach, welcome. 

Zach  10:00  
Thank you for having me. 

Michele Baci  10:01  
So how's your day been? How are you doing?

Zach  10:03  
It's good. I tried to go thrifting today, I went to Goodwill. There's like a line of 14 people. And I waited. And I went in there was really like nothing there. I had to sort through the aisles and stay six feet apart was much better

Michele Baci  10:16  
They're letting in so many people at a time?

Zach  10:18  
Yeah, I think it was like six or seven people at a time. So it'd be really weird. Like, they'd cut families off in half. And they'd be like, two of the two of the three group ago is strange.

Michele Baci  10:26  
Did they do temperature checks?

Zach  10:28  
Yeah, the temperature checks. And then you had to be wearing a mask? Of course.

Michele Baci  10:32  
Okay. So at least they're been safe.

Zach  10:34  
Yeah. Yeah, that's smart. Did you get anything good? No, I look, I looked, but it was really picked through Honestly, it seems like everyone's going there. Nothing to do.

Michele Baci  10:43  
Yeah. I mean, Joey and I have been a few times and like, bought picture frames, we have nothing to hang out. We just have frames

Zach  10:50  
was always good to have, you know,

Michele Baci  10:51  
yeah. Just stocking up for the future. Yeah. Um, so I want to hear about what your current therapy experience is like you're doing a special kind of therapy, therapy. Can you tell us more about it? It's called EMDR.

Zach  11:05  
Yeah, it stands for eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing. And it's not it's not so much different. I mean, there's no set therapy type. There are countless amounts of therapy, some theoretical, but there are a lot of established different types of therapy. I wouldn't say there's like, a traditional therapy. You know, I think, I think when you think about therapy, and like movies, and like, what you hear about you think about like talk therapy, we're like, how did that make you feel? But yeah, there's a huge spectrum. And so EMDR is specifically for panic disorders. So like, PTSD, anxiety, whatever, what have you. It's really, it's really specific, but it can help in a variety of aspects. It's a really new, you know, new from 1987. And it's new, new, new for therapy,

Michele Baci  11:50  
new for therapy, but relatively new compared to all psychological history.

Zach  11:55  
Right?

Michele Baci  11:56  
Right. Right. Right. Very cool. So how, how does it work? Like you hold the device in your hand?

Zach  12:01  
Yeah. So um, it used to be when I first started it was it's called a movement sensation, because that's how it used to be they'd go like this, like back and forth with their finger across your face. And you follow it like almost like no hypnotherapy, like you see in the movies. And it sort of grounds you, right? So you're watching, you're watching what's going on in front of you. Back then vanilla use tappers. So like, they're like little vibrators. Your hands just go back and forth. Give one one of each. Yeah. Why don't you chant? They're both they're both kind of vibrating back and forth. Like almost like, like binary beats for your hands. If I had to describe it.

Michele Baci  12:35  
Okay, what is the one?

Zach  12:37  
So I know beats are like, there's wavelengths that like, it doesn't matter. It was just as an example.

Michele Baci  12:44  
Like I'm thinking of maracas or like some music instrument,

Zach  12:47  
close.

It doesn't really matter.

Michele Baci  12:51  
But it's more like, interactive, it sounds like

Zach  12:54  
Yeah, well, you're it's, it's really a grounding thing. It's not so much like an interactive thing. Because you're kind of like reprocessing things you're not, you're not like talking about talk therapy, it's different in that it's there to ground you the techniques that you learn, are for grounding and staying centralized to where you're at, in the moment,

Michele Baci  13:15  
I guess, to becoming more self aware, kind of like doing a body scan or meditating.

Zach  13:20  
I'm sort of it's almost like, it's like, you're going in a cave, right? And EMDR is like the rope, it's leading you through, you're allowed to explore and you don't have to worry about getting lost, because you can always pull back on the rope.

Michele Baci  13:34  
Okay, so a guide of some kind. Right? Right. That's cool. And what caused you to seek it out? How did you learn about it? Why did you choose EMDR? Over talk therapy,

Zach  13:44  
I've tried several different types of therapy, you know, I've been going since I was like, 16 or so. So I mean, probably in total, like, session was probably like two years of therapy. So like, on and off, as I've seen, like CBT, which is like CBT is really good for like depression. It's like, almost like talk therapy, but it's really just a reprogram yourself, and how you think so like your negative thoughts. You transition your negative thoughts into more neutral or positive thoughts whenever you're thinking about something? Yeah, I like that one for a while, but I found EMDR specifically because of PTSD is it's what it's meant to treat. Like I said, it was really helpful for were you getting panic attack. Um,

it's hard to describe PTSD. I mean, I guess you could call it a panic attack. But it's almost like maybe it's a sudden flash in your mind.

Sorry. It's really hard to explain a lot of people you know, everyone, everyone has it differently. It's a very fast, fast disorder. You know, you have people you have people when it's more complex, you sometimes you just get emotions, you'll get like something will happen like you'll you burn your case study or whatever, and you're like, I'm such a failure. I'm stupid. I'm terrible. I don't deserve to live whatever you really like you adapt emotions to the event occurring.

Michele Baci  14:58  
Yeah, like and something like that. food that senses the smell might trigger that.

Zach  15:03  
Right, right, let's say like your house burned down or something, and it's traumatic for you that smell might bring it back. It's a really interesting disorder, and that it's hard to explain. But once you understand it's, it's a really deep occurrence that happens within a large population.

Michele Baci  15:18  
I'm sure, I guess burning a case study doesn't have to be traumatic, but it can be very upsetting.

Zach  15:23  
Right? Yeah, an event? Yeah, that's what I mean, like, you'll you have the event, right. And there are a lot of people that that walk around without knowing that they have this sort of traumatic response to things, you know,

Michele Baci  15:33  
I mean, that's kind of the magic of therapy is it shows you like, Oh, I'm projecting a lot of shit onto this because of something that happened before that I wasn't totally conscious of, and it brings to light, like, why you do so many things.

Zach  15:46  
Right. And that's, that's a lot of therapy types that just specifically focus on that, you know, why do you do things? But yeah, it's really crazy. You know, there's a, there's a large majority of people that just think that, you know, that they have trauma that there's like, Oh, my parents were controlling, they're really strict. They didn't let me do this, you know, and, and it's like, it's crazy. How many people are walking around day to day with all these issues, you know, I mean,

Michele Baci  16:06  
and they hopefully they eventually seek help or figure it out. But a lot of them might always walk through life that way. So it's good that you're, you know, taking the time to put in that work and like really look at everything and try to make your life better.

Zach  16:18  
Yeah, I think that's it's been a societal problem for so long. That you know, it seems like my generation and the generation step before me, you know, Zoomers and millennials, whatever you want to call them.

Michele Baci  16:30  
You know, that sort of, are you a Zoomer? Are you like pre Zoomer?

Zach  16:33  
I think I have a lot of Zoomer tendencies. But I'm more millennial, I guess.

Michele Baci  16:38  
Okay, cuz you're younger. Are you comfortable sharing your age?

Zach  16:42  
Yeah, I just, I'm getting close to 22. Now actually, the years gone by really fast. Oh, damn.

Michele Baci  16:47  
So yeah, you're almost 22 so you are a Gen Z be identified as a millennial.

Zach  16:53  
Um, I don't know kind of, it's like I grew up right at night. I have born 1999. So like, I grew up with all the 90s TV shows right before they got cut off.

Michele Baci  17:01  
Yeah, my so it's really it's really hard. My sister's your age?

Zach  17:05  
Like a there's this there's one weird show that I remember. It feels like a fever dream. Whenever I'm this guy. Trying to describe it to anyone my age. We like chockstone IV. I really love trucks. I probably

Michele Baci  17:16  
saw it on commercials. I don't think I watched it. Huh?

Zach  17:19  
Yeah, so like weird weird, like, weird, weird, weird shows that were only on a specific time like I've vague memories of but like the newer shows. I had no interest in Really?

Michele Baci  17:28  
Like, did you watch him Vader's M or SpongeBob? Or those shows?

Zach  17:31  
I think a little bit of invaders him and SpongeBob Of course because like

Michele Baci  17:36  
it's like a cultural. Yeah, yeah. Okay, cuz I watched meters in with Joey and I was like, there's no reason to rewatch the show for me. Like I didn't I wasn't that ensued as a kid. But I'm glad I got like the art and the general vibe.

Zach  17:48  
It really was a weird show to watch as a kid. Like, it was very creepy, very, very eerie vibes. And a lot of those episodes.

Michele Baci  17:56  
Yeah, a lot of like, violence or violent tendencies.

Zach  17:59  
Yeah, like dead cows and stuff. And like every other episode, it was weird.

Michele Baci  18:02  
Yeah. Or his little sidekick. He was kind of mean to and I was like, I don't know why this is on Nickelodeon or whatever channel right. Alright, um, so can you tell me about when you go to EMDR therapy? Is it in a group? What's the kind of what's the layout of a session?

Zach  18:18  
Well, I think it's, it's good to distinguish, like the difference between group therapy and individual therapy. When talking about there be types, almost always you're gonna be talking about like a one on one therapy session group therapy is is more so it's a lot of DBT, which is like, do this every day, be mindful of this. Be aware of this. And it's really group is like the step before outpatient. So when you're getting to a point, you know, a lot of people come in come into therapy for crisis moments where they can't handle anymore, there's not a lot people that do preventative maintenance. So you end up getting dumped in group because it gives you a chance to rationalize and say, Okay, I'm, I'm not doing as bad as I thought I was, you know, there are other people going through the same thing I am. And maybe I can get through this, and it's the first step that you get, and then you get an individual therapist. But EMDR like I said, you know, any sort of most of the named therapy types are going to be one on one. It's like EMDR is a is a one on one session.

Michele Baci  19:17  
Okay, but you are you doing? You're doing EMDR one on one, and then you're also doing group sessions outside of EMDR.

Zach  19:24  
I was doing group sessions for a while. Um, but I mean, you kind of just get phased out it's a IOP program is an inpatient. Okay, program.

Michele Baci  19:32  
So you graduated in a sense, or you've kind of fulfilled that?

Zach  19:36  
Yeah, I mean, it was just nice to have something to do, I guess, you know, I feel like for me, I didn't really get anything out of it. But I know a lot of people do.

Michele Baci  19:42  
Yeah, I know people like I know friends who've done group therapy and they ended up I think the biggest benefit was like meeting other people who are going through something equally like negative in their life and being like, Oh, we can bond over this. So they I think they like either stayed friends or they connected through the session.

Zach  19:58  
Yeah, there's a lot of people that are like they're Long Term long term disability, and as they stay recycling in the group sessions, and they're like all friends, it's kind of it's an interesting experience. And I think, you know, it is really one of those things that you have to experience some time if you end up going to therapy.

Michele Baci  20:14  
Yeah, I haven't done that myself. But it sounds interesting. It kind of reminds me I don't know if you watch bojack but he stays in a rehab for like, way too long. He's too comfortable there.

Zach  20:24  
Yeah, Bo Jackson, interesting show. It really is like the epitome of like, deep depression.

Michele Baci  20:29  
Yeah, I try not to I haven't been watching it in quarantine. But I loved it in the beginning. And I like all the things it's portrayed that it can get you sad.

Zach  20:38  
Yeah. I mean, it's a really good example of what like a, like a mental state be of how you act like it's like a mirror almost how you act before seeking therapy, like when you do have the issues that he has, you know, I mean?

Michele Baci  20:51  
Yeah, it's a it's a good trajectory in a cartoon. So when you have the EMDR, what is the object you're holding? It's like a, how did you describe

Zach  21:02  
it? They're called tappers, I believe is the actual name of them. Okay, so weird name. But that's the official name. I want to ask if they're almost like little like pebbles, almost like little vibrating pebbles.

Michele Baci  21:11  
And today, library in your hands. And then you're just kind of, as you said, going through a cave in your minds while they are in your hand.

Zach  21:19  
Yeah, sort of. So like, if you want, like you want like a picture of like, the day to day session of like, if you were doing him during the session,

Michele Baci  21:26  
just if you were trying to kind of pitch it to someone say you, you know, if I needed it, what would be your like, quick couple sentences. This is what it's like,

Zach  21:34  
uh, if I was trying to pitch it. I mean, it's for a very specific group really, like it would have to be for someone that has had trauma, and is suffering from PTSD? Because it's one of the main benefactors, you know, there's countless studies that say, three to four sessions, single single event trauma is cured PTSD symptoms cured in three to four sessions. Wow. Yeah, it's really fast. It's really it's really great work.

Michele Baci  21:58  
Have you seen like, healing or advantages of it so far?

Zach  22:03  
Oh, yeah, definitely. I think, Well, my therapy goal is, you know, the total elimination of my triggers, and and my past having a, an effect on my current decisions, I guess, is a good way to put it. And I think yeah, I mean, I've I've eliminated several triggers, and I've worked through a lot within the few sessions that I've had,

Michele Baci  22:24  
that's awesome. Did you come up with the therapy goal on your own? Or did your therapist help you?

Zach  22:29  
I came up with it with them. But it was mostly it's there. My therapist is really, really great lady. I mean, that's a big part of finding a therapist, you know, if you're not with the right therapist, something like that happens where, you know, they kind of suggest it for you. And it really has to come from you. I mean, they can they can push you along a little bit. But

Michele Baci  22:46  
yeah, I think it helps to start out with a goal or an intention. Because then you know, if you're making progress along the way,

Zach  22:52  
yeah, and that's a big part. That's like, the reason why people don't just go to therapy, and why there's such a high statistic of people going there only when they're feeling suicidal, or like having a crisis, they went through something that they can't, they can't handle on their own is because it's really hard to set your own goal, you know, us as people were so go, go go in today's society that we don't have time to be like, Okay, I'm having whenever my husband scrapes, his, his fork on his teeth, it really bothers me. Yeah. Why is it do that?

Michele Baci  23:20  
Oh, no, even the description bothers me.

Zach  23:23  
Right? So like, we don't have, we don't really have the time to think about it. We just have the time to get upset about it.

Michele Baci  23:28  
Yeah, I know. Because I feel like I've had a couple or I've had like a period of my life where I had panic attacks, and I sought therapy. But then my therapist, I thought was pretty bad. Like, I couldn't get comfortable with her. So I wouldn't even It was like a waste of my time to keep working with this particular therapist. So I was like, she'll never understand she'll never be empathetic enough. So I just kept suffering.

Zach  23:48  
Yeah, that's a that's a hard thing. Finding finding a good therapist is really hard. I've probably seen I've stuck with three, I've seen three, three psychologists, long term, three therapists long term, but I've seen probably like 16 2025 therapists, and it's really hard to find one that you can really mesh with and really have a good fitting personality between the two.

Michele Baci  24:10  
Yeah, I've realized, as I've done it more or encount, like encountered more therapy attempts, you can just end it and move on. You'd be like, no, this is this isn't what I wanted or expect. And, you know, you phrase it nicely and just get out there.

Zach  24:23  
Right? And there are a lot of resources out there. We like on like Psychology Today or whatever. There's a lot of like, weird dumb articles you can read, but they're kind of helpful. They like like, tell you what you can ask a therapist, you know, in case you can't think of it you know what you can ask to see if they're the right fit for you. And that's always a good idea, you know, use that first session to be like, Okay, this is I feel like I need someone that's gonna be empathetic. Is that how you are blah, blah, blah, you can you can really kind of be the therapist for a second if that makes sense.

Michele Baci  24:48  
Yeah, I like the most articles on psychology today because they they're more broad. They can like kind of apply to the general masses. So in your sessions Is there like a technique he found to be the most Effective.

Zach  25:00  
What do you mean by that? It's a good question. I'm not sure.

Michele Baci  25:04  
It might be like, I don't know, if you would phrase it as a coping mechanism or learning how to separate a trigger. Like you were saying, Is there something you've learned from therapy that you think is the most effective in your life so far?

Zach  25:16  
I mean, I've learned I've learned countless things from therapy. I mean, EMDR is its own animal. Honestly, when you talk about it, it really is. It's not, it's not you're talking, here's how to cope with this. It's, it's okay, close your eyes, picture the image you described, and then you're like reliving it, while still being present. I guess,

Michele Baci  25:34  
how long have you been doing it for

Zach  25:36  
a while? I think that's gonna be my fourth month doing it starting in November, but it's only once a week. So like, 16 sessions or so.

Michele Baci  25:43  
Okay, that's cool. I'm glad you're, you know, seeing such progress.

Zach  25:46  
Yeah, it is a really, it is a really fast paced therapy, you work through things very fast. And it is a little hard to deal with and the cope. But I mean, the the end goal is far bigger than the pain you might feel.

Michele Baci  26:00  
Mm hmm. That's awesome. is a in your own personal life? Is therapy something because I feel like you could you've talked about it in front of me before. But is this something you talk about openly? Like with your wider circle?

Zach  26:10  
Oh, yeah. No, I, I think health care and, and mental health are our two big things that don't get advocated enough in today's society. Agreed. You know, I think it still is, even though we've come so far as a society to start developing mental disorders, handicaps into a modern modern society. And I feel like we still stick mate, and really criticize people that are going through tough times.

Michele Baci  26:37  
Yeah, I mean, it's also easy to make assumptions about people. So I feel like when I, you know, was more judgmental. If I knew someone in therapy, I'd be like, Oh, you know, she's just doing that to complain, or she's wasting money. And it's easy to make all these assumptions. You don't really know someone's story. Once you're in therapy, then you realize, Oh, no, this is like, hugely beneficial. It's helping me so much everyone should do this. You know,

Zach  26:59  
this. The sad part is, you know, people that are really mean these really judgmental people like Narcissus. Let's say, for example, there's a difference between a diagnosis of narcissism and someone being a narcissist. But like, I would say, someone that's being a narcissist is someone that isn't really caring about others and kind of putting themselves first and masking. But the sad part is, is that people that are like that people that are really kind of rude and mean that you see kind of being trolls and doing all this stuff is the reality is narcissism spans from deep feelings of worthlessness? You know, they, they're just projecting their feelings onto you. And that's, that's the sad part is you see so many people in this day and age so angry and so upset, but like, you're like, wow, sit down, sweetie, Let's have a talk.

Michele Baci  27:40  
Like maybe no one's taking the time to make them feel more. Like they're, you know, they're valued. They're worth it. So they have to sell themselves all the time. Right? I know, a couple of narcissists. They are hard to keep in your life.

Zach  27:53  
It's it's a really hard balancing act, you have said a lot of boundaries.

Michele Baci  27:57  
And then sometimes I'm like, mostly not found it to be worth it.

Zach  28:01  
Yeah, I mean, some people do. It's really just the relationship, whoever it is, you know, if they like your parents or whatever, your friend, it's really just how you value the relationship with how much you're going to put up with.

Michele Baci  28:11  
Yeah, and then I guess setting boundaries maybe is definitely healthier strategy, because then you can take the time away, not get sucked into the Narcissus world for too long.

Zach  28:20  
Yeah, I mean, there is this great, this great lady. Cameron, Mary, she has a YouTube channel. Love to give it to you. Yeah. She does this great talk about, you know how to engage with them when you're like, in a conversation and you just keep use keep being like, yeah, sure, whatever. Yeah, do you just like you don't ignore them. You just let let whatever they are saying just roll off your back not not roll off your back and hold on to it, but just genuinely roll off your back. And she just keeps talking. She like has this example of in her life, and they just kept getting more and more confused. Like, why are you responding that way? And it really is the ultimate and only way to respond to an RCT.

Michele Baci  28:59  
Just engage in a roll off? Be like No, tell me more, because that's just gonna spiral right? keep going forever, right? Um, have you ever wanted to quit therapy?

Zach  29:09  
I think everyone comes to a point where they're like they want to quit when you're especially when you're dealing with with kind of more difficult topics. Because avoidance and avoidance is a really big coping mechanism. You know, it's one that you don't maybe realize you have until you really start sitting down with your issues. You know, you start procrastinating, doing everything else that's on your to do list, except for that one thing.

Michele Baci  29:31  
Ex parte. It was hard for me to even say anything personal when I first started going to therapy, because you really have for me, I have to really feel comfortable with someone. And that was like big enough hurdle that I had to work on that first and then I was like, Okay, can I talk about my big issues, or should I just talk about, you know, how my weekend was right, but you haven't, you're still in therapy, obviously. So you haven't quit and you're, you're determined to make it to your goal. It sounds like

Zach  29:54  
yeah, I mean, that's a big thing too, for therapy is you really have to be like okay, as hard as This may get you're really gonna, you're gonna force yourself whether it be proud of yourself in the back to take it up that hill, you're really gonna get there.

Michele Baci  30:07  
Yeah, that's admirable. How do you pay for therapy? If you're comfortable sharing?

Zach  30:13  
Well, I pay I've insurance, I've got insurance to my work.

Michele Baci  30:16  
I'm only like 10 bucks per session covers this session.

Zach  30:19  
Yeah, Medicare does, too. I know the office, I go to takes caloptima. And it's still like 15 bucks, go pay for all the therapists they have in their network.

Michele Baci  30:27  
Oh, nice. So it's affordable. And because you have a good job, it's like, why not?

Zach  30:32  
It really is affordable. And even if it's not, like, let's say you make like under 10 K or something, and you really need that therapy. Like, there are a lot of therapists that take sliding scale.

Michele Baci  30:42  
Yeah, I know. Like, there's a, I think it's called Beverly Maple center, in the Beverly Hills area. They're more I think they might be students are like brand new therapists, and they're like, willing to take a sliding scale. So it's like, oh, I'm only able to pay $1 a session, you can make that work,

Zach  30:58  
right. And there, there are hotlines, you can call and talk to a licensed professional, or someone with a certificate and whatever. And there's, there's resources like I know Long Beach City, I've pulled it up for a friend before long beach city has on their, on their belief on the main website, a list of resources, which offer like in call, like LGBT pro offices, and they'll they'll offer pro bono work, they'll give you free therapy, whatever you might need. So there's a lot of resources out there for you. Really,

Michele Baci  31:29  
yeah, it's nice to know that exists. In comparison to all these like people who kind of gouge you the really fancy doctors were like, I don't take any insurance, it will be 250 a session.

Zach  31:38  
Yeah. I mean, I think it's hard to make a living as a therapist, you really have to be passionate about what you're doing. I know my therapist, she she talked to me about it before in passing, you know, it's kind of like a it's a hard. It's a hard profession to be not be rich, but to to live nicely. I guess

Michele Baci  31:57  
that makes sense. And you're probably, I would imagine you're overpacking your schedule all the time, especially now, right? In a pandemic, with everyone trying to seek therapy.

Zach  32:05  
Yeah, there's a lot of people doing like the zoom, which making it so there's like, they can see seven people instead of four,

Michele Baci  32:10  
I just quit my therapist, because I feel like I'm like reaching a good point. And I also want to focus more on the podcast, I was like, I'll quit therapy for now. And I looked on her profile on talkspace. And she's like, not taking any new clients. So I'd be like, she's overwhelmed. I'm

Zach  32:24  
talking about talkspace. I've heard about it. And I've heard you talk about in your other episodes, yes, I know much about it. I'm

Michele Baci  32:30  
trying to get them to sponsor me because I talk about them all the time. Um, but I really like it. Like, I was hesitant to try it because it seems non traditional. And I wanted to start out with just the messaging, not the video chat. And it's been really helpful for me, because I'm like, as a writer, I'm more open with my words, less open in person. So writing to a therapist, kind of like a text or an email format, I've been able to share a lot more and get a lot more back. And the one the plan I've had, my therapist will respond to me like once every day, so if I, if I text her at night, she'll get back to me the next morning, and she really has like a 24 hour period, she tries to get back to me. So it's been super helpful. I've like accomplished way more with her than a lot of in person therapists I've had.

Zach  33:12  
So is it like, Is it like you You say I want this therapy type? Or is it just here's a list of therapy therapists.

Michele Baci  33:19  
It was available. Yeah, they present these therapists profiles like people, if they give you three options, people who are available, and then it might even cycle through more if you're like, I want to see more. And then you can check out their profile, what they specialize in. They have a little picture. So you can like Google them. That's interesting.

Zach  33:37  
I mean, it's kind of hard for me to be like, yeah, I'll just use that. Knowing that I have such like a tragic background. Yeah, I have to be like, I need this specific type of therapist, and I need to specialize in this.

Michele Baci  33:50  
Yeah. You're more. You're more particular with what you're looking for what you need to

Zach  33:54  
Yes. Yeah.

Michele Baci  33:56  
Whereas I was like, I feel lonely. And I feel like I've no one to talk to you. So I just was kind of like generally looking for someone.

Zach  34:02  
Right. And I think, I think though, even for someone that is like let's say neurotypical that just has some daily stress in life, but they talk to you, there's a lot, there's a lot of therapy work that you can do that you don't even know that you should be doing.

Michele Baci  34:17  
Yeah, like my towards the past few months, I decided like, I probably don't need to talk to a therapist and pay for it because she was mostly giving me recommendations. Like she was like, read this book, listen to this podcast. I'm kind of like being a cheerleader. And I was like, this is great, but I probably don't need to pay for this.

Zach  34:34  
Right? I'm not, I don't know, I'm not a big fan of like, go do this. Go do that one time. One time. This therapist gave me like 100 page workbook to do. And I was like, I'm not I'm in therapy. I'm not in school. I'm not doing this homework.

Michele Baci  34:48  
Yeah, I could see if you want to try something in a session like you want to try art therapy or like you know, tell me what this figure means to you something different but homework like that's 100 pages. That's too much.

Zach  34:59  
Yeah.

Michele Baci  35:00  
Do you recommend talkspace? I think especially now with COVID it's very accessible, it's affordable and sponsor me. That's all I could say.

Zach  35:08  
Yeah, I think with a therapist though any doctor right now is the perfect time to be to be finding one. Everyone's taking zoom appointments. No one's no one's saying wait three weeks, everyone will fit you in. It's a it's the best time right now.

Michele Baci  35:20  
It's more efficient that way, too. Yeah, it really is. So let's talk about social media. What what's your main social media go to? Are you like addicted to any platform? Are you on every, like on a specific platform every day?

Zach  35:34  
Um, I say I go on Instagram a lot. I mean, I kind of just scroll on there. I wouldn't say I really am a big user of social media. I don't really post much and I don't really feel need to post much more of a lurker I wouldn't even say that I'm not really looking at other people's things. I'm kind of just on there for me.

Michele Baci  35:49  
So Instagram, big on memes, because I'm not really in the meme world.

Zach  35:52  
They're kind of everywhere. It's everyone just steals everyone's stuff. So I mean, I can't really say

Michele Baci  35:59  
I was googling copyright trademark stuff. And the first one of the first things that comes up comes up is how do you copyright a meme?

Zach  36:07  
Right? In a in the UK, they tried to do that. It was a really a controversial thing. They tried to be like, if someone makes this template, you can't use it, or else they have the right to sue you.

Michele Baci  36:18  
Mm hmm. I feel like you could if you get a trademark lawyer, you can make that happen. But it probably takes months and months.

Zach  36:24  
It would take months and months just to come to the fact that a 12 year old still You mean like what do you what are you gonna do sue a 12 year old?

Michele Baci  36:30  
Yeah, I don't know how profitable it's gonna be. Right? So you're on Instagram for the means do you use like tik tok or like Facebook? I feel like Facebook is past its prime. Anyway,

Zach  36:40  
I never I really never got into Facebook. I never really like I got an Instagram really late in the in the whole Instagram craze. Same as Snapchat. I wasn't ever really like big on any of the whole social media platforms.

Michele Baci  36:52  
So how do you talk to your friends?

Zach  36:55  
Um, a lot of Discord. I use discord a lot actually.

Michele Baci  36:57  
Yeah, I've only heard about it because of Joey your brother.

Zach  37:00  
I think it's it's a good platform. There have been a lot of different ones that I've used over my lifespan, which isn't very long.

Michele Baci  37:08  
22 years

Zach  37:09  
Yeah. See you guys talking on discord as a baby.

Michele Baci  37:12  
You like chat? You chat on discord? Or you play maybe a video game and chat while you play the game? Right? Yeah.

Zach  37:17  
And, and discord is kind of interesting as like its own, like community building kind of stuff. So you can start a server with your friends and share stuff, whatever. Yeah, it

Michele Baci  37:25  
seems that way. I'm new to it. But I like I like what I see so far. Do you know? Um, are there people in your life like your friends or your girlfriend or family who you see like on social media all the time?

Zach  37:36  
I think a lot of people are on social media all the time. I think it's hard to say like, point a finger and be like that person. Right there as a problem. Yeah, I think I think there's a there's a fine line between the type of social media we have right now. And almost like roulette machine. You know, I mean, like borderline dopamine addictions happening on tik tok,

Michele Baci  37:56  
because it has its benefits for sure. Because it connects you with people or it gives you a creative outlet. And then it has the negative like, Oh, you can become obsessed and never turn. Right.

Zach  38:05  
Right? Right. And then you have like that whole remember when they were doing all the studies in like 2014 and 2016. Like the effects of watching someone else live their life. Or that you get really depressed you're like, I should be living like this.

Michele Baci  38:19  
There's there's a movie with Aubrey Plaza, where she goes to LA and she just is stalking Instagram influencer, the whole movie, right? She's like, I can't eat brunch where she eats brunch. You know? She goes, she goes crazy over it.

Zach  38:34  
Right? And that's like a like a real person. I bet you I bet you at least one person,

Michele Baci  38:39  
especially in somewhere like Los Angeles, which is like, Instagram, obsessed, like celebrity obsessed. Yeah, because a lot of the friends I've made since living in Los Angeles, they're all like, let's hang out, but we're only gonna hang out to take Instagram pictures. And it's right. It's mostly a photoshoot.

Zach  38:54  
Yeah, that's why I never really got into is like, you become kind of like this animal that isn't really living to live years living to let other people watch you live.

Michele Baci  39:03  
Yeah, like it's good to make memories. But if it's taking up most of your day, that's kind of a problem. Right? So how often do you go on Instagram?

Zach  39:12  
I don't know. I tried not to go on it too much. I try to get some kind of productivity done every day. Yes, you sit on your phone.

Michele Baci  39:21  
You don't set a limit or anything?

Zach  39:23  
No. I mean, I tried just to go on it. Like kind of infrequently, probably like right before I go to bed. Or if I'm bored. But for the most part, I try to keep off of social media.

Michele Baci  39:32  
What about Tick Tock? You mentioned Tick Tock.

Zach  39:34  
I'm not I'm not a big fan of it. Like I said, I mean, I feel like it really is like instant gratification building dopamine addictions really young.

Michele Baci  39:43  
Yeah. And it's also so it can be so dangerous, like more young, impressionable people.

Zach  39:49  
They Yeah, it really is. I mean, you see a lot of societal influence going just from that one.

Michele Baci  39:55  
See, I wonder if your generation has way more self control than millennials. Because my sister who's Gen Z. I asked her like, I was asking her about social media use and she's like, Oh, she's like, I'm good at looking at social media, but I don't really think I know social media. So maybe it's more of a passive, it's there, but it doesn't drive your day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai