Therapy Roulette Consent to Vent / Trauma disguised as comedy / Therapy Roulette: Consent to Vent / If you dont have problems, then youre likely repressing sh*t and you should find a therapist / (Whos not me)
Hey Rouletters. Welcome back to another episode of Therapy Roulette, where I give you a consent to vent. My name is Michele Baci. I am your host. And I want to thank you so much for being here and listening. Because it's been a year of Therapy Roulette, it's been one damn year we've hit an anniversary, and oh my god, pop those bottles of champagne set off the fireworks only today because fireworks bug the hell out of me, they go off all the
time lately. But because we're celebrating, happy one year, you, me and your headphones, it's just us, guys. It's there's no one else here. I'm so proud. I made it this far. I had a goal when I started Therapy Roulette just to stick with it. And make it consistent. Because everyone says if you're gonna do a podcast, you have to be consistent, otherwise it will fail or you'll lose momentum. Or you'll just stop recording and they're right. Do you have to be
consistent? I mean, if you don't have a goal, if you don't have a deadline, why are you putting out a podcast? Right? It's been hard. It's been Rocky. I think we are gonna call it season one at some point. But I still have some more episodes to release. So season one still going I'll let you know when we're taking a break and what the plans are for season two. So I'm not leaving
yet. Don't worry. And I want to say thank you to my friend Kelly, who was on the first episode of Therapy Roulette, couldn't have done it without a willing guests. I want to say thank you to Joseph who has put up with all of my technical questions and production assistance. He's been great. I don't know if I could turn on the camera without him. And I want to say thank you to denisha, my former producer and good friend who helped me with
social media and motivation. And Laura, my sister who helps with social media and assistant work and honestly, I cannot do this if people didn't believe in it at tell me to keep making the thing. So thank you so much. Ah, we'll have to celebrate for real in real life. I'll hold myself to that I'll celebrate for
y'all. Buy some pumpkin beer. So since we've had a year, I have to ask, can you please donate to the podcast because I've run out of money and I just need a caffeine budget like some yerba Mates for production I'm asking on Kofi, Kofi? Kofi, it's called Ko-fi dot com. You can go to KO-FI.com slash Therapy Roulette. It's in my link tree. It's in the show notes KO dash FI dot com slash Therapy Roulette. And there you can donate any amount of money
toward the podcast. It really will go toward the caffeine budget because I recorded this episode with a yerba mata in my hand, and I think I think I was more with it and a little more peppy. So honestly, give me more year because if I have excess funds, if suddenly everyone who listens donates, then I'll put it toward my therapy sessions because this girl is starting therapy again. When will she stop? When will she find the therapist? Who's the one? That's what we're on this journey to
find out. So I did talk to a new therapist this week, and we had a little consultation. I think she's really cool. She says she she tries to incorporate humor, and a little bit of dark humor and dark jokes. And I said, Oh my God, you are the one, let's please consider this patient client relationship or a doctor patient relationship. So we're going to start sessions and see
if it's a good match. I told her if she has other therapists who take my insurance to let me know because I really am trying to use that insurance to the best of my ability. It's just so much cheaper. So I think I'll start with one therapist who seems really cool. And then if there are other therapists who take my insurance, I'll do a few more consults and maybe work with a different one. Long term. I don't know I'm taking all doctor
referrals right now. So yeah, starting with a new therapist, I actually have had a slew of doctor appointments this month, and I'm just here to tell you, California for all the negativity that California may have just because they've been stuck here. In a pandemic. I have a little bit of negativity with it, but for All of that. It has good doctors, I found a good GP. I've never really clicked with doctors before. I'm always like afraid of them something about the white coats. They're
pretentious, they know at all. I never feel comfortable in a doctor's office. So when I found a new general physician, didn't expect to like her, but she was the nicest person in the world. And she sat down and she talked to me like human, and answered all my questions. I came to this general physical with like, 10 questions, brimming with anxiety, like, I think I have this, I think this is wrong with
me. I'm losing my hearing, what do I do and she was so compassionate and listened to everything and gave me some solid advice. Like, what I've already gleamed from the internet, but a little bit more. And also, she's a real doctor. So I don't know there are good doctors out there. You just have to be patient and take the time to find them. Like I've been internet searching. doctors who take my insurance. For months, I think it was my summer project.
And when I found this physician, I called her office in August, and they didn't have a month. They had like no appointments for the next month or two months. I had to wait. And I was like, You know what, it's worth it. This person has good reviews. And you guys it was so worth it. Sometimes it's worth it to wait, if you can push that appointment out a little bit further, or just talk to all the damn doctors if you have good
insurance. You know, you don't even have to pay a copay for most of these general checkups. So that's amazing. Go see your doctor, go find the therapist. Go donate to Therapy, Roulette, Kofi. I like how it's pronounced kayo dash phi.com slash Therapy Roulette. I saw it on a artists website and the artist is asking for donations and it's so cute.
Like they have a little coffee emoji and honestly, if you feel like the being generous, and buy me a cup of coffee, or give me a few bucks toward therapy, I will take it I've been having a rough time. It's been a rough 2021 it's really thrones 2024 I don't even know it's it's trying to rival it for sure. I don't know we're getting better though. I hope so. This week. Oh, can you review the podcast to can you leave me a really nice review on Apple podcasts. That'd be awesome.
That way some new strangers can find Therapy Roulette and I can keep putting out this cool show. This week's guest is Paige bond. She is an LMFT. Based in Florida. We have a Florida girl on she is a specialist in couples therapy. And she is the host of the podcast Stubborn Love. I'm excited to welcome Paige Bond!
guest interview / a friend for you / strangers whose issues are relatable / guest interview / They're the voice that's new / this person has problems and they don't mind discussing it, but they still need a therapist / (Whos not me)
That was perfect. Right together
I tried.
Yeah. Welcome to the Therapy Roulette podcast. I'm here with Paige bond. She is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. Luckily I have the acronym looking at me so I can get all those titles. Right, Paige? Welcome.
Thank you. I'm super excited to be here. Talk about couples therapy, relationships, all kinds of stuff today.
Yes, please. I am in a relationship. I tried couples therapy. I just like here for free advice.
Yep. Not all couples therapists are created equal.
I can imagine as as I like delve into different therapists and try new things and like everyone is totally different.
Yeah, yeah, it's so crazy because in I'm kind of biased because a lot of my friends are therapists. So it's weird how I how I know them and how each of them can interact with their clients where there's like this. I don't know phenomenon where growing up I thought a therapist was like all this professional person who like wears cardigans all the time and wears the glasses and just as taken notes, but it's
not like that at all. Like, I'm actually having a conversation like you and I are doing right now. And that's what therapy is like. And for me, like as both client and us therapist, which I love.
Yeah, my luckily my podcast is therapy oriented. So I feel like I have like these mini therapy type conversations all the time, which is kind of kind of getting the spoils, but I also am so grateful. Yeah, lots of free therapy, then yeah, at least it's like in that realm where you're talking about the same topics. It's definitely definitely not a replacement for therapy, but it's like a band aid.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's good little snippets here and there that people can take and use to like, even if it's just a small application of Oh, maybe don't say that phrase anymore to my partner, like it can make the biggest difference in your relationship.
Yeah, just to take some wisdom and try to apply it. Mm hmm. How long have you been practicing?
So as a therapist, I've been practicing for a little over four years, I've been specializing in couples, particularly for the past three years. And being in private practice. I've only been in private practice about two years. So I've kind of had a journey. Once you graduate grad schools, you have to you know, get all your hours, make sure you're supervised and making sure you're not screwing up any
of your clients lives. So you're what we call in Florida of registered intern, which means you're just pre licensed for a couple years until you get all your hours under supervision. So during that time, I had a lot of different jobs before I even got to private practice. I was like a school counselor at like a middle school for running substance abuse groups for all the kiddos there at a middle school. At a middle school. Yeah, I mean, cuz I mean, kids
are trying drugs these days. And so that's they need, they need the therapy a lot. Yeah. But I don't like working with kids. So I see that job. I was like, Bye, guys. You know, someone else will better be able to help you which they found a great replacement therapist, but so after that, then I did what's called a methadone clinic. Have you ever heard of that? or know what that is?
I think I have lived near them before in in Long Beach, California. So I don't have direct experience. I think I've walked past them.
Yes, most likely. I mean, they're kind of everywhere now. So it's kind of like the, the like better of all of the evils out there. So it's like an opioid blocker treatment methadone is and so I worked there for a little while, which was crazy, because the hours were 5am to 1pm.
Yeah, I've heard that. I've heard like some of these addiction base places. It's like crack of dawn. We're gonna house.
Yes, I mean, and you either see them out there all night, because there's a lot of homelessness, or people get there really early because they start like 5am or 6am jobs. So like, they have to go to their job, but I'm already there for my job. It's, it's crazy.
So it is it it? Did you just say it's a 24 hour cycle of people working?
Um, no, like, it's not 24 seven therapy, I think the the last dosage for people to come in and get therapy and get their medication was like at 7pm. So if they were like, overnight people, or if they were like vampires, basically, like, that'd be really hard for them to get their medication, because we're only open during the daytime.
Yeah, so it's not somewhere where people like live and no, not
at that one. But I did work at a residential treatment center center right after that. So they live there for anywhere between like seven and 30 days where they detox off of their preferred substance or substances. And they're, they're just living there. And we are living in their world and doing lots of group therapy intensive one on one therapy, all kinds of stuff.
So that sounds like really throwing you in the wringer right out of we're even dealt with grad school when he started working with the middle schoolers.
Um, I was done with grad school. That was my first job. And then I went to the methadone, and then I went to the residential living facility. And
it sounds like mental challenge after challenge. Yes,
I would say that because a big thing for me is I don't like substance abuse populations. Like that's not my preferred population to work with. I don't get excited with that type of clientele. And I was doing that for like, a year and a half until I started going into private practice, which I get to focus on relationships now, which is great. But for so long, I was not doing what I loved.
That's hard. How did you motivate yourself to keep going because a year and a half is not nothing?
Yeah, um, I knew that there was an end in sight, I knew that I would be able to eventually get licensed. And you know, it's kind of like the holy grail getting licensed. Because you have much more freedom to take clients to take insurances, all of that, like there's so many opportunities that are missed being pre licensed. So even in job opportunities, you're paid much, much less as a pre licensed person than a licensed so I knew the end was in sight. Like I knew it was
only temporary. So just knowing that got me through it, but then like all these big dream goals that I have that I'm now achieving I also got me through it too.
That's good. And to get the license, is it just the hours you're putting in? Like, you have to accumulate so many hours?
Yeah, yeah. So you accumulate 1500 hours?
Wow, so many.
It is it's like on average, I'm pretty sure don't quote me because I, I don't do math. And that's why I became a therapist. That's fair. It's like, I know, it's so hard. So I think it's 1500 hours over two years. And then you have to get 100 supervision hours with whoever supervising you making sure that you're not screwing up your clients. So it's a long
process. I I've loved being an intern, I got a lot out of having my supervisor, not everybody gets a really great supervisor, because they start out at the places like agencies, and the supervisors don't really want to supervise them, but I actually paid mine. And I got great supervision. So it's really different out there. Everybody has a different experience being pre licensed.
I didn't know the extent of how rigorous it is. So props to you for getting through some hurdles now. Getting a job you love.
Yes, I'm happy now. Yeah, it's, it's actually So you mentioned you're in Long Beach, California, Florida. And I think maybe New York or Virginia, those are like some of the more rigorous places to get licensed. Like they require extra classes, extra hours extra, like everything. So once you get licensed in one of the harder places, it's much easier to transplant. Like if you had to go to a different state, you mean, okay. Yeah.
Do you plan to stay in Florida probably for for now.
For now, at least. I mean, in the future, I would I would love to kind of either go back and forth to different states or do teletherapy for a different state. So for right now, just Florida, but I think I will add more states to my arsenal soon.
Yeah, it sounds like you're, you're not being super challenged currently. So you're like, what else? What other goals? Can I add?
Yes, yes, I keep on I make this a comment. Like in the past month, I keep saying, I'm going to build my empire because I feel so good right now with where my business is going. And it's much more developed than I ever thought it would be. And so, if it's already devolved, when I didn't even think I could get here. I'm like, Oh, my empire will be bigger soon. So yeah, that's awesome.
That's a great outlook. Yeah. And that's so important to like, once you see you're hitting success, like how do I reset and set a new goal?
Exactly, exactly. Hopefully, eventually, I'll be like, no more goals. Let me just chill. Yeah, but I like achieving goals. So right now I'm doing that.
Yeah, I struggle with that to where I'm like, I am so ready to chill. Please give me a break. Like I'm planning a break from the podcast sometime in the future. But I also want to plan goals for after the chill time. So everything's always juggling.
Yeah, I know. It's, it's really tough. Because, I mean, eventually you kind of get bored when like, there's no goal to achieve like Florida is the point if you're not like striving for something. So I mean, I like it. I've always been a determined to kind of person. That's good. Mhm.
yeah. For me, I know I I'll just do some I'll be doing something. So I might as well, mindfully think of what I actually want to do.
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
Yeah, rather than pursue someone else's goals.
And you know what? funny that you even say that, because that happens so often, like not even just clients I meet, but like people I talk to, like either friends, family, whoever, are not living for themselves like that. They're pursuing someone else's goal, someone else's dreams, and they're unhappy, and they're wondering why they're unhappy. And like, I'm sitting here waiting to tell them like, and shake them. Like, guys wake up live for yourself. But, you know, doesn't always happen that way.
They have to get there themselves, right? They have to come to their own conclusion.
Mm hmm. And that's the thing in therapy too, is, you know, I don't just unless they outright ask me for an answer. I don't lead them to the answer. I asked like leading questions or exploration questions, but if they don't automatically get an answer from me on what they should do, or you know how to get there. I'm like, Okay, what steps can you think of? Because I got like, tons in my mind that I could give you but that's not the point of therapy.
Yeah, that must be so hard to like, restrain yourself from saying all of it
It is, but there's a really cool acronym that I learned for being a therapist, it's called wait. And when as a therapist, you have trouble like, talk talking too much you need to use Wait, why am I talking? And really like process? Okay, am I talking for my benefit or the clients benefit? Which can be really hard with an ADHD brain as a therapist because you love to interrupt people and you love to talk. So I struggle with that a lot of putting the kibosh on myself.
I like that acronym. Why am I talking? I think that could be useful in everyday life, like social situations, you're catching up with someone, just let them let them spill for a bit before you intervene.
Yeah, and like a lot of times when people are spilling like that, it's not like they're looking for advice or anything. They're just updating you and wanting you to know what's going on. So yeah,
they're almost never looking for advice. Like they I feel like point blank have to say, what should I do? That's, that's your cue when you give the advice?
Yes, yes. That's like one of the number one things I tell my couples, because there's so many times or one of the partners is like, just listen to me, I want you to understand, and they don't get it because they're like this, you know, person who fixes everything likes to have resolutions. And that's not exactly what the other partners looking for. So it's tough.
Yeah, I definitely struggle with that with my boyfriend too, because he's very, like, solution oriented. And I'm like, Well, I have too many solutions. Right now. I just need to talk it out.
Exactly. Yeah. And the thing I like about it, like there's this specific exercise I use, it's called like stress reducing conversation. So the two of like, the two people who are talking can have a conversation and feel understood and feel like their partner is enthusiastic and actually interested in them. And then there's the specific part where it says, okay, would you like advice? Or would you like me to just listen? And and then that's when the the person who's speaking can kind of tell them
like, no, you're good. Just listening like this? Yeah. I don't need any of your opinions here. Keep them over there.
these are these are great tactics and taking mental notes. Yes. Good. So as a couples therapist, are you practicing a certain teaching of therapy? Or how does it work?
I'm like a mixture. I wouldn't say like I'm focused in on one exact thing. I've been trained in the Gottman method. I don't know if you're familiar with that at all. Of course, I learned about it in couples therapy. Beautiful. Yes. See, it's so common, one of the most common types of couples therapy just because there's so much evidence for just all the good easy to use tools for couples to grasp. And so I mainly practice
Gottman method. However, sometimes I find that it can be a little surface level of like, here's, you know, these these things that you can learn things that you can say, but it's not really getting to the root or to the meaning. And so I also incorporate something called emotion focus therapy. Have you heard of that one? Not? Not really. No, it's fantastic. So it's based on one of my favorite things of like the attachment
model. So if you've heard of different types of attachment styles, like anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, and then secure attachment, which is a really good one that we all strive for the EFT models based on that. And so this is where we get clients to really dig deep down into their emotions and be really vulnerable, which they basically never are in their relationship and why they're seeing me and it's just amazing when you get them to actually
voice their emotion. And that must be Yeah, that must be cool to see the breakthrough process of like we're getting there, we're getting to the vulnerability Hmm, I'll have them all kind of like a like, pull it out of them a little bit. And then I'll see them tear up or something. And then I'll say, Can you turn towards your partner and say that to them, and then sometimes they can't because it's too hard, because or too much vulnerability, they'll crack open. But sometimes they'll actually do
it. And they'll turn to their partner and they'll say, you know, how they've been hurt or how they really want to be loved or how they want to feel desired. And then the other partner will be listening and be like, having this mind blowing experience of Whoa, I didn't know it was that bad. Like, I need to do something so it's it's really great.
Yeah, I had some kind of experience like that myself. And it was definitely like, changing the whole vibe in the room. Were like everything is now different in the session.
Yes, yes. Those are amazing. I love when that happens.
Yeah, and it's different when you cry in therapy. I'm not like I've only in my real life began to cry more in life and then in therapy, I hardly ever shed tears. So it's, it's totally different. If that like happens. I'm like, wow, this is this is a monumental day.
Yeah, that's that's really a serious I'm a crier in regular life. And when I go to therapy, it's not that I try not to cry. But there's definitely been some times where I'm like, Oh, I kind of don't want to go there. But then I'm just like a blubbering whale at times. And my, my therapist just like, pulls it out of me, you know, and I like it. It's a cathartic experience to be able to cry like that.
Yeah, it definitely is cathartic because you you feel empty and I also get exhausted and I'm just like, this is knocked out the day.
Oh, it's like naptime after a good crisis.
Yeah, for sure. Do you find you integrate coupling your couples therapy work with your own personal life? Do you like integrate that into your daily life at all?
That's a very hard question and a very tricky question. So how I integrate it now is much different than when I was not so it's two parter No, I used to not do it as well but now I'm finding I am like started to more naturally do
that. So a lot of the tactics with especially it tends to happen and I hate to have a gender bias but it tends to happen with females and a relationship and it had a relationship that I'm working with where they feel extra sensitive and and any comment that their partner says to them, you know, just get something to cry up or makes him feel
worthless or whatever. And I had felt that way a lot in my relationship which was weird because I've never felt that way before and I didn't think horribly of my partner and so we used to get in like quite a few arguments like back in the day and now it's like totally turned around like he and I have had some couple sessions too and I've done my own individual therapy, love my therapist shout out to Jodi or anything if you ever watch this um and just by like, learning a little bit
about each other's kind of ways that we grew up and the ways that we were working from so so a lot of what EFT is how were you working in reacting to different attachment figures growing up so the way that we do that in our childhood is the way that we present that in our current relationships and both of us for doing that and then we finally realized it pointed out the pattern and now we've come up with different things to if we're you know, getting into a fight we know how to stop it we
know how to take a break and do whatever to cool off we know how to compromise a lot better and just be a lot nicer I think a lot of it is the the emotional deposits in our bank account you know just doing those nice things more often to create that culture of positivity has helped us like more than anything because now I give him the benefit of the doubt I don't think he's trying to be mean he's really trying to be funny but it comes off as mean sometimes because I'm sensitive
I get it so so now I give him the benefit of the doubt and don't think of him in this like horrible light
yeah it's so it's so hard to get there without couples therapy or individual therapy because how else are you supposed to know like this person is like this because of this thing that happened in his childhood and now he'll forever like have this association like you have to dig that up
Yeah, yeah because otherwise we were just working through the same thing over again like every fight would kind of you would be able if you could like document it as an observer you would be able to to be like Yep, that's point a ready for point B ready for point C it just like happened the same way every time so once we started identifying our cycles Oh, so much better. Yeah, and that's what I have couples do now.
That's good because I feel like I've definitely recognize the patterns and I do take it less personally now and like oh, this is just this is like something that is traumatic that my partner's working through and to me it's super annoying, but it's not personal.
Yes, yes. Yeah. And so you just you know, take a breath and I come from moreso the anxious attachment standpoint so if I ever am feeling unloved or unwanted or whatever, you know, either I approach my partner and say, like, Hey, are you feeling that way at all because I'm feeling this way because blah, blah, blah, and they'll he'll be like, No, no, no, I love you, babe. So
that clears that up. But if I don't have that, like if he's already asleep in bed, and then my mind starts racing or whatever, or maybe he's out somewhere and I'm, you know, still at home without them. And if I get those thoughts, I revert back to the happy pictures that I can rely on as proof to know My relationship is secure the good text messages that I can see, I even have his
voicemails that I listened to. I love those because then I get to hear his voice and hear him say all those sweet things that I know he truly does think about me. And I tell the same thing to my clients to rely on. Okay, what are those things that you can rely on that, you know will reassure you that the relationships not in danger? And so I practice that same thing myself?
Yeah, that's those are good tips that's for anxious attachment style, you think?
Yes, yeah, anxious attachment. So that attachment style is more so about that they are very scared that the relationship is going to end. And a lot of times what happens is they will start doing like clingy behavior. So maybe they'll start texting you more, calling you more, Hey, where are you? They want to know your location, they want to know everything. Who are you with? Who's there? How long are you going to be there, everything. And so with that fear that they're they're so desperate for
that connection. But a lot of times when someone's anxiously working from that anxiously attached behavior that pushes the other person away, and so they start to distance themselves and so the thing that the anxious person, they need to recognize what they're doing, because that is pushing the other person away. And so if they actually say, calm down or look at their own behavior, they'll be able to have a better conversation with the other partner.
Yeah, that's important to tell the anxious attached person because then like the person on the receiving end is probably so fed up and it's like I'm just in a movie like stop calling me.
Yep, yep. Yeah, it's a it's mainly what I work with, I see it a lot. Really, a lot of times it's with people like for
the anxious attachment. A lot of times it's with people who didn't have a safe place growing up or who didn't have someone to confide into who has really a hard time trusting other people and so when they finally find that person that they think they trust and then there's like one little behavior that might push that off the edge then they start freaking out and they're like Ah, oh my god, like the
relationships gonna die. And then the other person on the other side is like what are you talking about relationships fine Shut up. Like I'm so tired of this. draining my energy. Yes, exactly. So you got to calm that down because they're working from a place of their worth is based on someone else usually based on other outside relationships to validate them and so with the anxious person we have to work on getting that internal validation rather than external
Yeah, it's like one of those instances where I think social media is good because I could open my boyfriend's Instagram be like look at all these nice pictures of like him doing his own life and be with him and you know Yeah, like a little library of like no, he's a good person I could I'm fine
huh there's good separateness and there's good togetherness. Yeah.
What are you what are the other attachment styles if you don't mind running through them because I'm I know there's avoidant, right.
Yes, yes. So there is avoidant and avoidant doesn't necessarily mean like hey, I don't want to be with you or Hey, I hate relationships like avoidance do like relationships. They just usually tend to like their independence a lot of times they were like the latchkey kid always left alone or maybe they were the older kid you know running the household but but didn't have a lot of supervision or whatever. So they really liked that independence This is a
I'm the avoidant one
Ah, oh sure. We'll talk about that.
I feel like I do I don't like all the like 100% togetherness I'm always like When do I get to be alone?
Yeah, yeah. And you usually crave that that alone time and that space away from your partner which is not necessarily about that and like I said, that does not mean you don't love your partner or that you don't want to be in the relationship it's just a preference Yeah,
it just like I need to feel like me and in order to do that I need some alone time.
Yeah. where it gets really tricky with avoidant attachment style is if we're avoidant we don't like to share we don't like to share emotions we don't like to share what we're thinking we don't like to share like all kinds of stuff because hey, it's mine Why do I need to tell you
Yeah, I'm very I tried to be very private although like clearly that's not going great so I have a podcast but yeah, for the most part they try to keep some things inside but also with my partner I'm like super open with him and have never shared so much so he's cracked some he does love me. Oh, your yoke is like exploding I know it's very runny It's awesome. That's good, but he does get offended if I'm like
I need alone time. Like I think he's better with it now but at first Yeah, like why do you want like why are we dating if you want to be alone, I'm like, right? Just sometimes it's nice.
Yeah, yeah. And in In a secure relationship, you don't need to be on top of each other all the time. And you don't need to be apart all the time. The good balance is you can do both autonomous activities and together activities and so that's when it's healthy. That's when you know it's okay. For when it's unhealthy with the avoidance, you know, say, you know, your partner comes to you and he's like, What? What do you mean? Like, why are we even in a
relationship? You know, I should just end this now that would be speaking like an anxious attachment person.
Might be onto something. Yeah, exactly. Well, a lot
of times with anxious people, we kind of like make threats or whatever to see if you care to like know, Oh, okay. Do they really care about me? So we'll figure out a lot of shit like that of like, Oh, yeah, you never even love me. You don't care about me at all. You don't know a lot of you. You use statements, which is not good in relationships. Yeah.
And when I hear that they seem so ridiculous. Like, what are you talking about?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's not descriptive of like, actual behavior. It's their feeling, but not really an actual feeling. Because it's not an emotion. Yeah, it's just what they're thinking is their opinion, it's a judgment, which judgments, assumptions, expectations, they don't belong in relationships. They do not work in relationships at all.
Okay, you have to know like, realistically, like, what's actually happening? What, what do we want to do next? You can't just assume anything you get caught up in expectations, you're usually disappointed.
Yes, exactly. I like to tell people with expectations, if you have any, you already have premeditated resentments. So it's gonna end up not being very happy with your partner if you have these expectations. And that's different if you talk about them. But if you haven't, without talking to your partner, then it's not going to end very well. Yeah, you can have unvoiced expectations. Right?
Right. Right. You can have an expectation of, you know, I expect to you know, come home to a loving, warm hug and kiss from you. Because that makes me feel loved. That's a great way to set an expectation, but you can't say, Well, I expect them to cook me dinner every day. In my life. I've hit the jackpot. And I'm not even gonna let them know that they've done that. So that's not
good. Yeah. And then also you you don't learn how to cook and then your shadow luck someday.
Exactly. When the relationship ends, you're just going to starve to death. Yeah, you're like, Where's the grocery store? I
never bothered to learn. Exactly, that could be a problem.
instacart microwave meals.
Cue sad music. That's funny. And then what are the other there's secure attachment. That's the goal for most people.
Yep, secure attachments. So this is where you can balance friendships or even really good to have in the secure attachment with avoidant and anxious friendships can kind of be a little rocky, but your friendships are much more attended to when we're feeling secure. Because we have that balance of okay I don't need to be on top of my partner all the
time. So I can actually tend to these other relationships with friends with family with colleagues with whoever so you're balancing all that insecure attachment there is so much more trust than the other two relationship styles so you you can trust that you know your partner's going out to Starbucks and you know that they're going there and you're not thinking that they're going out cheating on you. Yeah, can I attach to that person? What Yeah,
that'd be quite the jump if you're like they've been gone for 10 minutes What are they doing?
Yeah, exactly. We only need like three so
I definitely seen it and other people where I'm like huh i mean you know there's so many reasons why you might feel that way so I get it but yeah, that partner going to Starbucks it's a lot
right exactly. Because they're kind of now in this thing of Oh gosh, you know, are they tracking my location How do I make sure that I have proof that I'm here you know, just just figuring out all the ways to make sure that they make the other partner feel secure but it's also hard just having all that pressure to do because usually they don't know what to do because the secure the anxious person is not telling
them what they need. So it's a big ugly cycle but but someone who would feel more secure would would be able to trust Hey, you are going to Starbucks I know you know you're not cheating on me I know that I trust you to be you know, a gentle person that I know you to be with other people and respectful and not disrespect our relationship. So trust is really big in the secure healthy attachment style.
Okay. Are there any other ones any other attachment styles?
There are Um, there's like all kinds of words so anxious can kind of flip flop with the name, anxious preoccupied. avoidance can be avoidant and fearful. And then there's kind of like this third attachment style that can be characterized as disorganized or ambivalent. Okay, this is where we get a combination of both anxious and avoidant.
Like a very, like confused, like not quite sure how they're attaching.
Yes, exactly. So a good example could be, you know, one minute when they're really sad, or maybe yelling at their partner, like, why don't you love me, you know, come come here and love me. I don't know what they say. whatever they're struggling with, and then they'll be like, no, don't touch me, you know, I want to be away
from you. Like, I don't like this, that they'll be very confusing mixed signal set of messages to the other partner, because they're confused themselves about what the heck they want to do, because they do want that closeness. But then they're like, Oh, don't get too close. Because when people were close to me, when I was younger, I was hurt. So you're only allowed to get, you know, 10 feet away. Yeah,
I see the mixed signals in that example, like, I feel like that person doesn't know if they like the other person, or they have to do their own, like, mental journey to figure out what's going on.
Yep. Yeah, it's, it's tough. And it's one of the harder I think, attachment styles to work with, just because you have the combination. And it's like, one, it's like, gosh, can you just pick one? But but to just it's it's hard, because they're going from both ends. So it's like, how do we get you feeling secure and feeling close? When that's
too scary for you? But also have you not be clinging like saran wrap to something that's, you know, whatever, and actually have Okay, being alone some of the time so, yeah,
yeah, it's tough. So many people are unable to be alone. So I feel like that's a common problem. And maybe it's gotten better and the pandemic, I have no idea. But I feel like a lot of people struggled in the pandemic, because they were alone for maybe the first time for like, a long period of time.
Hmm, I would agree with that, too, with people finding like Oh, shit, this loneliness is like, this is what it's like not to see people for this long or interact with people for this long and odd Damn it. My depressions back here we go again with this. Let me stay alone, because I don't want to talk to anybody, because I don't want them to know how I feel like it's a blast. So
that's true. That's more. That's a better statement of what's going on. Yeah, yeah. Like I'm lucky it's like you live in Florida. I live in California. So I've been out somewhat I've been like in the worlds here and there. And it's always good weather, but I'm lonely. It's been a lonely time. like everything's different.
Yeah, I would it to speak to Florida's way that they've been handling things is just something that you can't even speak about, because like, how can you find the words for how crazy it has been, but we are doing better on numbers in Florida that I've learned from a few local nurses and doctors. So hopefully that means we're on the up stretch of it. But everybody here is is feeling is feeling alone is feeling
disconnected? Yeah, cuz How can you not if everything's drastically different from what it used to be?
Mm hmm. Yeah. And it's hard. A lot of times, I'll be seeing a lot of clients who are struggling with their families, because their views are so different from their families. And then how do I still keep in contact?
My god, I can't even imagine your clientele in Florida.
Let me tell you, you would be surprised the amount of couples who were on the opposite ends of the spectrum for CDC guidelines and for vaccines.
I'm not surprised because at Florida just a big question mark state where it's kind of its own country. Yeah. Yeah. It's so crazy. I can't imagine couples being like, why can't you just wear a mask?
That's crazy. No, seriously? Yeah, I've had those. Those are the harder sessions to do. Because I also still have to struggle with making sure that I stay on bias and make sure that both of them feel heard. Even though when I'm like blatantly in my mind, come on, please get vaccinated. Let's all get through this together.
Yeah, I feel like pretty strong in my own beliefs. But then, even in my own little circle in my life, like I I get a lot of opinions and I don't trust the government and blah, blah, blah. I don't believe in vaccines like I've heard that in the past year and a half and I'm more open to like, people have all these different opinions if you have to, like, you can't just cut them out and shut them down, because that's gonna make it worse.
Yeah, yeah. And they'll either be mad at you or they won't like you anymore. They'll cut you off. So you got to find some middle ground there.
Yeah, that must be so hard with the couples who are battling, battling COVID guidelines.
Yeah, it's tough. But, um, I will say like, out of out of most of the couples, I would say, maybe only three out of the whole last year and a half were really bad on the opposite ends of the COVID spectrum. So three out of the, I don't know, however many people I've been seeing, but it's a lot. Three out of a lot is not so bad. Luckily. And maybe it's because they wanted to find a therapist who was outraged about their views. And maybe they found a therapist, according to
that. I don't preach what my views are to people. So it's not something like that they can know before they get to know me. Yeah,
that's good. I feel like that's pretty good statistic for for where you are? Mm hmm. Yeah. Do you usually recommend that the couples do individual therapy? Or is it kind of like case by case? Oh,
most of the time, it is very rare, what we're I haven't recommended individual therapy. Um, because I would say probably 90% of the people that I see have past trauma, either from another relationship or from childhood. And that's affecting their couple hood relationship, which is preventing us from making progress in regular couples therapy, because they're reacting from their trauma brain and not the present brain of
what's really going on. So the reactions are much more over reactive and exaggerated, which makes it hard on the the partner who's witnessing that, because they don't know what to do they not know how to, you know, calm their partner down or work with them from the trauma response. They think that it's really about them when it's really about the trauma and so that taking it personally thing can be a really big struggle. So, yes, individual therapy, everybody needs it, I, I highly recommend it.
Do you think both people in the relationship have to do it simultaneously? Or can they like, Can it be like the traumatic person can go and the other person can go eventually? Like, do you think it has to be simultaneous?
I don't think it has to be I think it's like, it's up to everybody. You know how they want it? to do it. But I mean, I recommend you might as well you know, knock three birds out with one stone. We're all in therapy. Let's just get it all done now. So you don't have to do it later. Yeah, that's so sorry, at the same time. Yeah, exactly. But I don't think there's like any certain process of like, No,
you go first. And then you go second, no, I, I just let them because I will say more often than not, but at times, they may be resistant to going to their own individual therapy. So we're just kind of stuck working in couples therapy. And so sometimes you don't even have that luxury of them working on their own stuff with their own
individual therapist. And you're kind of like as a couples therapist, working in tandem, playing both roles, tried to get them worked on themselves in couples therapy, while their other partner is either witnessing and watching what's going on, or just learning about their childhood even more to get more understanding. So it's tough sometimes.
Yeah, that must be hard when you're like, we started this thing because you both wanted to be here. But now it's become, it's become about one of you. Yeah, it's very, like very much like there's a bigger focus, there's something else to do.
Right? Exactly. It's really hard to move forward. Let's say I'll take like a sexual trauma, for example, it's really hard to move forward with sexual trauma when in your couple's relationship, you're frustrated about your sex life. And the one partner who had that trauma isn't working through any of that. And so it's like, Okay, well, how do we actually address the couple's sex life when we're not addressing this, which you need to get better? Right. So which is the first step? Yeah,
exactly. So there will be times where I actually will kind of step back and not recommend couples therapy right away because sometimes couples therapy can be contra indicated. And those are the times when they're in a very abusive relationship. Like I won't see active domestic violence couples at all, because it's not going to be a safe place for anybody there. It's only gonna be a place where the the hurt partner gets to be continuously abused.
And so I won't see couples who are in active dv relationships and I'll be like, hey, you go Figure out yourselves. And then if you find that you can, you know, pull it together and act nice, then I'll be able to see you. So I recommend sometimes individual therapy before they even come see me.
I can't imagine the domestic violence couples seeking couples therapy does that happen?
It does. It does. And, and at times, you know, I got to fire them, at least temporarily for them to go figure out themselves. So what could happen is like, I'm seeing them and all of a sudden, maybe a few sessions in they they share that, like they got in a really bad fight. And maybe someone slaps someone or shoved someone really hard or, or even, you know, something else more violent was happening. And I'm like, Yeah, like, Hey, you got just what they're sharing with
you. Yeah, exactly. It could be a lot worse, right? So I have to trust my best instinct and say, Okay, well, couples therapy is going to be very useful, because we're going to be trying to work out, you know, repairing something, but you guys need to figure out your stuff and figure out why you're accepting this and why you're doing this first before we can even actually address what happened. So that's the that's the situation that I just try not to touch at all.
Yeah, that's good on you. It's kinda like, say no to them and be like, No, you have to go take this seriously and figure out why you're
violent? No. Hmm. And sometimes they don't come back after that. Because either one, they break up, usually because they realized, okay, this is not a healthy relationship, which is great. That's, that's fine. My cup. My job as couples therapist is not to keep couples together, is to make sure you have a healthy relationship, whether that's only with yourself, or if it's with, you know, you guys
together. That's great. But I'm not here to keep you together, you know, on the last string, if it's a violent relationship, so
no, I mean, that's probably not going to get much better, huh?
No. So So those situations and situations when people are narcissistic, or just any other type of toxic one up one down behavior dynamic in a relationship, I don't see those types of couples because it's again, not even going to be it's not worth their time. It's not worth my time, because the narcissistic partner doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. So how could I possibly be able to help them? Right?
Yeah. Do you? What do you recommend the same for the narcissistic partner like, hey, go get your own therapy and come back? Yeah.
Yeah. But do they ever do that? No, because they're perfect.
Yeah, that's a tricky personality thing to delve into the narcissism.
Yeah, yeah. I don't Um, there's some main things that I don't work with, which is the domestic violence, narcissistic or other personality type disorders, and substance abuse. And like, there's other people, other therapists out there that are loving that that's their wheelhouse. Probably requires a lot of expertise. And like really intense training, you know? Hmm, I like talking about sex. I like talking about money communication. Let's do like those fun things. Not like points of power. Yes.
Yeah, I could see that. That's more interesting, for sure. And erotic for you, hopefully.
Oh, gosh, aeons less traumatic.
You did that chin. You said you had ADHD?
Yes, this was only a recent realization, though. Okay. And after all, my many years of living. So I've now been diagnosed as an adult. This was a last year during the pandemic, I finally got evaluated. Because my partner kept saying, like, I had memory issues. And so I was like, well, I need to go see a neuropsychologist, see what's going on? Do I have a cognitive impairment? And well, turns out my executive functioning is not
going very well. And so I took the evaluation and I ended up having a diagnosis of ADHD which makes sense now that you know, we've put all the things together of what my behavior was doing and why I can't ever remember anything or why is that good conversation or I jumped back on a conversation 10
minutes later. So it's a it's good to now know what's going on and myself or my partner will be able to call things out like oh, okay, so let me stop mid conversation and just remind this real quick before I forget, and then we'll jump back in because if not, the thought goes away. ADHD mind doesn't like to remember things. Yeah, my
boyfriend has ADHD. So it's been like a challenge to communicate and keep his calendar together and all that stuff where it's like yeah, reminders and his memories not good is like you can't remember everything you think like short term long term
is tricky. Um long term is a little bit better but short term like if we have conversations I'm not really going to remember anything unless I write it down and like put main points and this is really hard like thinking that like I'm a therapist I have ADHD What do you mean you don't have good memory? So it almost like is like oh, that's not a good combination. But But that is a big thing is the the memory sometimes I'll think a conversation is over just because my mind is like Okay,
oh, bah bah bah. And then my boyfriend's like wait a second we weren't done talking. I was like oh sorry. I thought it was over like I was done in my mind I've moved on to the next task Do you also leave the scenes you like go somewhere else? Yeah, yeah, I'll be talking in the bathroom and there's that pause and then my brain is like okay done and then I'll go into the next room and do
something that's very frustrating with me and my boyfriend like he's always like moving like he's always like walking around he's in a different room I have no idea where he went I'm like we were just having the conversation
yes know that that's a symptom. And it's hard I now understand his frustration because he got frustrated a lot with me for all these ADHD symptoms and neither of us knew why like we thought like that I just didn't care enough or that I didn't like work hard enough or something but no and there's actually something you know my executive functioning is off um, but I wasn't recommended medication at all I don't know if your boyfriend takes medication
does I think he has You don't seem too bad with it he's like you know all over the place yeah,
yeah. So So is he finding like are both of you finding that's much more manageable like being on medication?
I think he gets worked out and he's productive if he takes his ADHD meds but then you know, when the meds were off, it's like a free for all. So who knows? Right? I don't know if there's a way to manage those things.
I mean, you can put things in place. But again, it's it's the brain has a mind of its own so so you can put all those things like right in front of you. You can set a jillion reminders. But are we gonna look at our phone? Are we gonna look at and be like, Oh, yeah, blah, blah, blah, like throw the phone away? Leave it in the fridge? Yeah, whatever.
You know, this phone is bothering me. Do you have any way to like improve your memories or word games or puzzles or something?
There was this Reddit post. And I know like therapists recommending a Reddit post. Reddit is a goldmine. Yes, it is. And gosh, it was like a jillion resources and one of them. They said there's like this memory thing that that you can do. There's like some sort of exercise. I think it's like called pyramid something. Have you heard of it? Like pyramid memories? Something?
No. I've just told my boyfriend you have to have a better memory. He's like, it's impossible. That's as far as we've gotten.
Yeah, well, that's like was gonna keep going.
Yeah, I could see that. Yeah, but it's a pyramid game or,
um, it's not a game. I don't know if it's like, gosh, I don't want to scroll like through all my stuff now It's okay. I'm is some other I'll send it to you afterwards or something like that. But it's, it's some sort of exercise that your mind to help you like, do things because what I found when I did the ADHD evaluation, my memory is actually fine. It's
actually very much intact. To my surprise, and my partner's surprise, and the the recall that I think, is having trouble with like, I can do recall at certain times, I don't know it's very specific. Obviously don't remember that. But it's there somewhere.
But when you got diagnosed, you didn't question that. You're like, yeah, this makes sense.
Yeah, I was like, Okay, yeah, there's all that criteria. And
especially there's really given day and age, like, who doesn't have some of these symptoms? Mm hmm.
And it's so hard to because there's a lot of overlap with ADHD and other diagnoses. So what I found specifically what happens in women because women are way under diagnosed with ADHD is a lot of times people just think you're depressed to growing up and it because there's a lot of overlapping symptoms with that and I was like, Hmm, okay, well, I know that everybody thought I was depressed and I know I probably was like at times but yeah, ADHD was definitely a thing back then.
But I think girls don't get diagnosed as much maybe because we're like calmer as children people don't see as as a red flag.
Yeah, there's a lot of doctors that are still not well educated on the subject and so one they haven't done the research or know that like hey, it's a real diagnosis. It's not just people acting out or just bad parenting so I think there's a lot of misinformation out there. But luckily I mean they're still doing a lot of studies and research so hopefully, you know, it gets better over time.
Yeah, it's another thing I have to look into I will Google ADHD pyramid page we're coming toward the end I have a few segments Do you want to spend the roulette wheel yes let's
do it. How do I do it?
I just spit it for you and then I'll see where it lands
All right, let's see what happens
if you could have dinner with any celebrity dead or alive who would you choose? It doesn't have to be a celebrity but I guess
Capco I was actually talking to my friends last night about this and it wasn't the celebrity person but like who would you want to like meet dead or alive and Oh gosh. It I'm kind of nervous even saying the answer because it's just like sounds so silly. But I really want to meet someone who's written a killer whale who's written a killer whale yeah yeah like ready to killer whale either on its like mouth or on its back or whatever I want to meet someone who has been on top of shambu
wow this is something I never would have thought of. Why do you want to meet this person?
I just one want to know what their experience was like like it's it's got to be just so like you know like just on top of the world type of feeling and then to like I'm really curious about their connection with the animal like if they like bonded or if they felt like they bonded. And three I just I really liked shambu growing up I was huge fan of Free Willy so that was the first thing that popped into my mind last night when I was asked that question
and where would you like this conversation to take place? If you could do it over dinner or drinks or in the ocean?
Oh, ocean would be totally cool. Okay, so I think what Okay, this is this in my mind now, I think in the ocean but um, you know how like, they have cages for like the sharks or like you're safe and stuff. So like somehow building a cage that could also like have a table for the dinner who could eat our meal, like in a safe place, but in the middle of nowhere, where like, all of them are circling around us. That would be really cool.
I like this idea. Is this something that exists? Have people read in killer whales?
I mean, at SeaWorld, they do. Well, I don't know if they do now, after Blackfish came out. I'm not sure I haven't been to SeaWorld in a long, long time. But at SeaWorld, I mean they were trained to do that. Okay, so
some people have done it for sure. Oh, yeah, totally. So
I got to find them. The ones who are alive because there have been some incidents.
Are you near? Is there a SeaWorld in Florida?
There is there's one in Orlando oddly enough, I mean, they do a lot of rehabilitation. For for animals that are not doing so well, like in the wild. So I like that part of it. But there's also a lot of cons to SeaWorld as well.
Yes. I've heard you should get one of them on your podcast. Oh, that would be really cool. Right? Setting man. Yeah. Yeah. Instead of dinner having
them on my podcast.
Yeah, right. Expand the relationship catch up with them over dinner. Yeah, yep, that would be cool. I like it. I like the answer. Yeah. My other segment is venting. Is there anything you want to vent about? Or just like rants about for a minute?
Then Tay? Oh, gosh, I mean, do you want to give me a topic or like anything? I feel like if you live in Florida, you you have topics at the ready like there must be things you see going out. Yes. Yes. I'm already like the first thing I thought of was like traffic and turn signals and like people just zooming out really fast in traffic. And I get I get it, I get why they're doing it. You know, they think maybe it's fun
to zoom around people. Like I used to think that was cool, but it's so dangerous and like this is my really big pet peeve is when they're just you know, zooming in and out, not doing turn signals, not caring about, you know, almost close calls with people. So yeah, you Traffic I hate you, Florida.
That is my event about that also a common problem in Los Angeles. Yep. I actually just had a guest on who got back surgery from being rear ended which is like, terrible. Ah,
God, I was actually in Long Beach Los Angeles area earlier this summer, and I was freaking terrified. So and I live in Florida.
So I lived in North Hollywood, which is northern Los Angeles. Yeah. Before the pandemic that I moved to Long Beach, which is Southern California. They're way more aggressive in Long Beach. like everyone's like, not trying to stop it Eddie lights, it seems like Yeah, yeah, it was very scary when I was there. So I was surprised like the Florida did not beat you in that category. But yeah, yeah, yeah, California. Definitely the LA area is a whole nother animal.
Like, yeah, try not to drive and trying to like get a Tesla or something.
I know. It's too much for me, please. Something else? Yeah, um, any
wise words of relationship advice you want to leave us with?
wise words of relationship advice that I would leave you with would be Own your feelings. Think the best intentions of your partner. And remember why you love each other because that often gets lost. You know, a lot of the times I'll get couples in and they forget that they fell in love after you know being together for however many years and I'm like, Guys, there was something really great here. So So those three things I'll leave you with.
Those are good. They're very pointed and powerful. I like them. Mm hmm. Let us know where to find you if you want to plug your podcast.
Okay, so I actually have two podcasts. I don't usually plug this other one busy or fuzzy lady. Yeah, I try to be so I'll say the first one is called emo cast. Do you like emo music at all?
I do. I have a lot of tattoos to you know, prove it.
Yeah, so like My Chemical Romance Pierce the Veil data. Remember? We do podcast. emo cast is about like us breaking down the lyrics to different emo songs that we loved growing up, or that we still loved now. And so it's me and my other friend who's also a therapist, that that's kind of our plug like two therapists breaking down the mental health aspects of emo music. Oh, that's
so cool, huh? So that's the email cast because we'll we'll play the song within the podcast show so that the listeners get to hear the song and the lyrics. And then we'll just like, kind of go line by line or wherever we find like a lot of meaning in the lyrics for whatever song we're doing. So that's a lot of fun. I
like that. If you ever need a pop punk expert, I can tag him. Yeah, okay, we'll connect.
And then the other one that I do is called stubborn love. So that's my one about relationships where you can find tips on it. And on all the major platforms, Spotify, apple, castbox, all those. And I only have a few episodes out right now I'm still getting there. But topics I like to talk about are the ones that we don't like talking about. So money, sex, non traditional relationships. That's where you get some really good tips.
Yeah, definitely check them out emo cast and stubborn love. And thanks so much for coming on the podcast.
Yeah, thank you for having me. It was fun.
Hey, thank you so much for listening. I really do appreciate it. If you have a few extra minutes to spare. Even if you have 30 seconds. Could you leave me a review on Apple podcasts, it would really mean a lot. You can also if you don't on the Apple App, you can go to rate this podcast comm slash therapy and leave me a review that way. It really goes a long
way. If you have a few extra bucks you could donate toward production costs or my therapy costs@cofi.com it's k o dash f fi comm slash Therapy Roulette. You'll see my picture on there so you know it's me and tell a friend about the podcast. Tell a stranger tell an enemy. Word of mouth helps get people to know what Therapy Roulette is. It gets some talking about mental health. So go do your part and keep being awesome. Thank you. I will be back with a new episode.
Not next Thursday but into Thursday's
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