Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session four sixty one of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after word from our sponsors. Y'all know, I'd love to chat with our producer team about the latest in pop culture, and this week we're talking all things the Drama and You, Me and Tuscany. For different reasons, both of these films starring beloved black women have taken over the conversations we're having on social and in our own circles. What do these new age black rom coms say about how we currently look at love and relationships and who
gets to tell those stories. We get into all of that and more in today's episode, but first we are desperately in need of an emergency pop culture check in a lot, maybe even too much has occurred. And as a therapist but also someone who appreciates and loves pop culture, it wouldn't be me if I didn't dig into the
mental health aspect of all of this. There are spoilers ahead, so if you haven't seen the movie, make sure you do before you listen to today's episode, and if you want to share your thoughts on them, please do so on social media using the hashtag TVG in session, or join us over in Patreon to talk more about the episode. You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Thank you for indulging in my pop culture musings.
Now let's get into our conversation. So I am very excited to be here with Bria, our production assistant, for our to be named in the future segment all about
pop culture. It just feels like there's always so much going on around pop culture that I have some thoughts about, particularly this week, and so Bria and I slid into the booths, so to speak, for an emergency recording to kind of get some things off of our chest and to weigh in on some of the topics that we know that you are talking about, but of course with a psychology standpoint. So, Brio, what do we have on the list to chat about today?
For sure is a lot to talk about. First things First, is the Michael Jackson movie. So, the new Michael Jackson movie premiered this weekend. It revisits his rise to fame and notably the complicated relationship with his father, Joe Jackson. The film specifically highlights how Joe's intensity and his push for perfection helped create a global icon, but might have
come at the cost of Michael's childhood and emotional well being. So, from your perspective, how do we distinguish between healthy encouragement as parents in causing emotional and psychological damage? oOoOO, that's a.
Big question, Brian.
So first of all, have you seen the movie?
Yes?
I talked, Okay, okay, so I haven't seen it yet, but my kids really want to see it. Do you feel like it is PG friendly?
Like, is it kid friendly?
I would say so, I would say so.
They didn't touch on a lot of the scandals and the things that he was accused of. I think they had to actually cut that out, so it took a lot of money and time to do that.
But oh, that was initially included in an estate.
Cut it out, so including that so it really was just like him as a child, like how he kind of stepped to his father and stuff like that eventually.
Okay, Okay, So the question is what's the line from like encouraging your child to be great and kind of be a star versus like psychological damage. Yes, exactly, And I feel like that's probably a pretty well, I don't
know if it's a pretty clear line. I mean, because I think when you listen to stories or when I've heard accounts of people who go on to have kids who are like stars, right like Michael Jackson and Serena Williams and you know, Tiger Woods, like I feel like we've heard accounts from their parents who talked about recognizing that there was something special there very early on, and that always feels like a struggle for me, because yes, you may recognize that, like your kid has some particular
skill or talent, but it feels like what happens when we push them to this level is that they lose like all sense of childhood, right, And so I feel like, for me, the line as a psychologist feels very different given what I know about child stardom and you know, just like the things that I think are important for kids to develop, I don't know that in good conscious I feel like I could make that decision to kind of say, Okay, we're going to forego a more classic
childhood to kind of lean into like this, this talent. But on the other hand, like these these people may not have developed into who they were going to be without this. But I feel like there has to be a line of Okay, we can lean into their greatness, but it doesn't have to teeter then onto psychological damage, right, Like yeah, kay, we sign up for the extra practices, we let them do the singing classes, we let them
perform or whatever. I think Joe Jackson is a special kind of for sure, you know, outlier, right, because I think it wasn't just about like leaning into his greatness, Like there was also like accounts of abuse and like you know, really went to far. So I think there's a way to kind of lean into your child's special talent and gifts and kind of allow them to share
that without it becoming an abusive situation. But I think the greater question is what is the line around leaning into a talent and then how much of their traditional childhood is robbed by always being in a practice, always performing, always doing those kinds of things. And as somebody who knows enough about mental health to kind of know where that line is, it feels like it would be a no for me. But I am curious to hear about from other parents maybe who have recognized that your childlike
is great at something. What is the line for too much for you? I'd love to hear because I don't necessarily have a definitive answer just what I think I might do for myself.
Yeah.
No, that's great, and I think it kind of opens a broader question also because in that same vein, what are some of those long term emotional effects where you're growing up in an environment where the love might feel conditional, or on achievement of how well you two, whether in school or events or with your talents too.
That is such a good point.
I hadn't even thought about that, right, I mean, you know, because I think we know the stuff around kind of people feeling like their childhood is arrested.
So this arrested.
Development kind of thing, right, like you almost stay the age that you were before, like all this stardom happened, And so we know that there tends to be difficulty connecting with peers because maybe they have not been able to develop like those kinds of relationships skills with their peers.
But I hadn't even thought about the idea that once your child is maybe like bringing in a stream of income and if the family is dependent on this income, then how does that change your relationship to your child.
That's a very different kind of thing.
And I think that's a part of the conversation people are often having with like child influencers or like children online, right, like should your child and like who they are and their interests be the thing that keeps the lights on for the house. And I think that that probably is a very unhealthy kind of dynamic because now you have moved into an employer employee relationship as opposed to like parent child, which is very different.
Yeah, no, that makes a ton of sense. Yeah, all right, let's move on to our next topic.
We had to touch.
On Meg Thee Stallion and Clay Thompson.
So Meg the Stallion shared your Instagram this weekend that she was cheated on by Clay Thompson. Now, this comes after several challenging years for Meg. She lost her mother a few years ago. She went through a very highly publicized dramatic event with Tory Lanes as well. It's honestly sparked a lot of conversations about emotional resilience when life just keeps delivering setbacks, because it seems like one thing
after another with her. From your perspective, what happens psychologically when someone experiences repeated emotional hits back to back.
So can I just start by saying I was so heartbroken by this news crush, not necessarily because relationship goals or anything, but just because it felt like Meg genuinely was happy, yeah, and finally felt like she had some peace. He introduced her to his family, and you know, like you mentioned, like we all know the story of her parents dying very early, and it did kind of feel like she was getting the support system and like the kind of sarrogate family so to speak, that she no
longer had with her. And so I think, just given all of the things we know, even publicly right like there's probably still tons that we don't know, but with the Tory Lanez case and her family members dying, like she has had an incredibly difficult several past couple of years, right, and so to have this now a heartbreak on top of all of the things when it finally felt like maybe things were turning her corner, just it just was heartbreaking because she just seems like such a sweet spirit
and like so fun and like just a sweet person, and so have something like this happened so publicly, I think it's awful. Not that private would have made it better,
but publicly definitely does not help. And so I think when you think about like resilience, I feel like, at a certain point, like we've developed it enough, right, like repeated awful things happening, Like I feel like, at some point, like your bounce back factor, which is what resilience is, like, you've had enough, and I feel like Meg has had enough. And so when you think about what happens after you've had repeated traumatic experiences, I think it is very easy
to like withdraw, especially in romantic relationships. Who would want to sign up for something like that again?
Right?
So I think it probably changes the way you relate in terms of romantic partners or even interest in doing that.
I think that that it also could be a questioning of like am I doing something to continue to end up in this case, and Meg, if you happen to listen to this, there is nothing that you are doing in anybody, right, Like, when awful things happen, it can be really easy to turn inward because we don't often have a lot of other answers, right, and so a lot of times we turn to the easiest, most accessible thing,
which is picking apart our own behavior. And so I think you can sometimes see some damage to self esteem, to feelings of worth and worthiness, some feelings of there's something that I'm doing like I'm broken or I'm defective, which is often not the case, right, Like we can't
internalize other people's bad decisions and poor behavior. That's what comes to mind for me with this case is that I hope that she does not think that this is something about her or something that she did that would result in this person also not being honest and not being maybe who he presented to be to her.
He touched on it on a little bit already. But if you could call Meg on the phone right now? What would you tell her? Because I think that when you're trying to give advice, how do people build resilient or stay strong when they're constantly in this mode of survival?
Yeah, I think I would start by just saying I'm so sorry that this happened, and feel awful that you find yourself in this situation again, but that there also is no pressure to be strong, because when you have had awful things happen repeatedly like this, then I think most people would find themselves falling apart, which is totally okay. It's okay for us have human reactions to human experiences, and this is a very sadly human experience, especially given
all the things that Meg has experienced. If you don't feel like you want to be strong, I think that that is okay, and strength actually probably is not going to be doing you any favors right now, right Like, it's okay to just feel the weight of how awful and sucky it is to have a heartbreak, to lose somebody who you felt connected to both him and his family, and to maybe feel maybe embarrassed, like whatever it is you are feeling, it is completely okay to feel that
and to just allow yourself to feel that, but also hope that you have a support system who can rally around you and give you the space to grieve and to do what you need to do to move through this.
I agree, Yeah, I hope she takes a break soon because she was performing I'm.
Broad away like yesterday, I was like, you should take some time.
Yeah, definitely.
Well, our last topic of the day is all about Summer House, So we're entering Bravo Land.
For this one.
For a little bit of con text, someone named Sierra Miller and Amanda Batula. They were on this show called Summerhouse. There is a situation where Sierra was dating a man and they decided it wasn't working. She ended up cutting it off, and then now a couple of years later, Amanda, who is very close friends with Sierra by the way, is now dating the same set man. It sparked a lot of conversation around the tensions of loyalty and boundaries and how friendships can even survive fallouts like this.
So, how do you get to a place.
Of honoring your emotions and healing when any opinions of others you don't deserve it?
Well, why wouldn't she deserve it? First of all, So I do not watch the show. Though I'm a fan of some Bravo shows, I have not seen this season of Bravo Summer House. So did Sierra and Amanda? Did Amanda start dating this guy when Sierra and the guy were still dating? Like, is this a cheating kind of thing? Or is it like, oh, we've been broken up for two years and now she's dating him they.
Were broken up for a few years, and let me like reword the question. So essentially Amanda has come forward or no.
There was some leaked.
Audio of the reunion and there's been like a lot of conversation that Amanda has been like, oh, well, you know, this is just like what the heart wanted and I'm in love. How can you even deny that? I think paraphrasing paraphrasing.
But that's essentially what the gist is giving.
So I think it's more so like honoring your emotions of this is how you feel, versus do you actually deserve to feel that way? Because that's your friend, right from this woman, this white woman's perspective, Well.
Right, because that's the other nuance to this, right is yes, heah as a black woman and Amanda.
Is a white woman.
Feelings are valid, right, Like, so if you feel like you were in love with this man or whatever, okay, Like we can acknowledge that maybe the feelings existed, but do we need to act on all of our feelings?
And I think that that is the question. And so when I think about like being a girl girl and like girl code, like anybody who my friend who has dated like you basically don't exist to me anymore, like after that relationship is over, and so you know, like I guess I could see a situation where maybe you develop feelings, but I feel like the friendship has to be stronger.
And is it worth it?
Right, Like there are no shortage of random men you could be dating. So I do think it questions the loyalty and the like, where does your allegiance lie if a couple of years after the breakup? Now, especially if
this was a significant relationship. This wasn't like a one time like oh, we went to dinner and got some appetizers and you know it was a loose kind of thing Like this sounds like we have a significant relationship that she probably cried to her friend about and like she knew intimate details, and so to me, a pre existing relationship with a girlfriend supersedes any kind of like, oh I got feelings for this person because my girlfriend
was there first. So I think it is like, yeah, you can be loyal to your feelings, acknowledge that maybe you have some feelings, but I don't think we have to act on all of our feelings. And in the situation of dating a friend's X, I just don't think that that's aligned that should.
Ever be crossed.
Absolutely, and you touched on the nuance a little bit already. But Sierra is a black woman and Amanda is a white woman, and I think from the leaved audio there's been a lot of conversation on is she actually responsible for concealing those feelings? But I feel like that same
grace isn't really being extended to Sierra. It's almost an expectation that like, Okay, if that was really your friend, you should be glad that she's happy now, Like there's been a lot of conversation on social media that isn't exactly aligned like with what I risally.
Would feel about it. But from your perspective, how do you release.
That expectation to take everything on the chin, especially when you're experiencing a lot of hur I think from Sierra's point of view, I think everyone's kind of picking sides right now, and there's almost this expectation as a women that like, your feelings don't matter, Like maybe this person's feelings take priority.
So how would you naviget that?
Yeah, I don't think she needs to take anything on the chin, right, I think historically black women have had to take a lot on the chin. And something that is such a personal attack or is such a personal experience, like your friend dating your ex, Like, who wouldn't be upset about that? I mean, I guess maybe some people wouldn't be, but I think most people would feel some
kind of way about it. Now, some people might eventually get to a place where they're like, oh, you know, okay, fine, like we are done and it's okay for you to do that. But I think most of us would feel some kind of way about a friend dating an ex. And so again, you know, just like we talked about with Meg, like it's okay to have a human reaction to a human experience, and so if you are hurt, you don't do yourself any favors and you're healing any favors by like trying to suck it up and like
pretend like it's okay. Or I understand why she might not want to be super vulnerable on the internet, and you know, social media definitely doesn't deserve that. But in her private circles, I hope that she is able to talk about how much it sucks and that she's.
Not okay with it.
And I don't think that she should lean into the like, oh, I'm okay with it if she actually isn't, just so that like people won't paint her as a villain, because it's likely people are doing that anyway, just because she's
a black woman. Yeah, Like you know that, people and like, narratives are often fun to make black women the villains in a story, and in this case, I don't think she is, and so I don't think that there's a reason for her to kind of lean into that or leaning into forgiving her moving past it if she is not actually ready.
To do that.
Definitely, I could talk all day about how black women are treated on reality TV, but the conversation.
A couple of episodes, so we maybe do for another one soon. So thank you so much for sharing Thoseria. I definitely had some thoughts and clearly have lots of thoughts around pop culture stuff.
But if there's something that.
You see or watch in the world, then you would like us to weigh in on for this to be named segment of our culture to talk, please send that to us. You can send it to us at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash mailbox and let us know what you are paying attention to and we might include it in a future segment. Also, if you have ideas for what we should call this segment, what name should we give it. If you can think of a catching
name for this segment, let us know that too. Again, you can share that in the mailbox at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash mailbox, or you can leave it in an Instagram comment send us a DM. We are checking all of those. Oh well, I am very excited to be back with the team today for another one of our pop culture conversations always.
Some of my favorites.
So we will do quick introductions so that people who have not met the team can read the team. So we will start with you.
Bria.
Hi, everyone, my name is Bria. I am the production assistant for TVG.
Hi everyone, my name is Elise. I'm our director of podcast. Fancy way to say like senior producer, but you know I'm always excited for from I.
Love end Day Same.
Hi everyone, I'm happy to be back here with our little group.
I'm in Day and I'm a producer. I'm the podcast sking here at TVG A.
Tari I am the resident he him at TBG and a podcast producer for both the podcasts.
And tbgu perfect.
So the team has taken the opportunity to start off the summer with some movie watching. You know, that's one of my favorite topics to talk about, and so we are going to be talking today about some of the new age rom coms and the two latest introductions to this genre, I guess are The Drama and You Me and Tuscany. So we will start with the Drama. So I will admit that I did not complete out my homework assignment.
I did not get a chance to actually watch the drama.
I did see You Me and Tuscany, So I'm probably going to be more on the just facilitating this part of the conversation, but everybody else on the team watched it. So how would you rate the film on a scale of one to ten and day.
We will start with you first. I'll say we will be spoiling. There's nothing to talk about these movies without spoiling. So if you haven't seeing them, then just come back, come back and listen.
I'm gonna give the drama. I'll give it an eight. I'll give it a solid eight.
It's pretty high. What about you at least?
Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree. I'm given an eight eight and a half. It was big, it was messy, it was fine. It was controversial, like this is why I literally feel like you add for the AMC. But this is why people go, oh, okay, yeah, I have a good time.
It's like it was like a ride.
It was I'm gonna go seven point five. I think that it was strong performances from the cast. It definitely approached a subject matter that is under discussed, and it's certainly like an interesting, I think way of doing getting like this modern context. It just didn't have the like extrao that I think makes a film like a plus to me. But it was really solid and I would rewatch it, okay, And.
What about you, Riya?
I was gonna say eight too. I really liked the performances from the car. I just did not like the end.
He will.
I feel like this is a very strong rating from this group, in particular because y'all notoriously do not like very many things, and so to have it be like a seven to eight range is very impressive. So I feel like at some point I'm definitely going to have to see it. Somebody give me a quick synopsis, just so that I can be a little bit informed without what's the log line?
Y'all heavy are engaged, and over the course of their engagement, they have a group discussion with friends around deeply unlikable things about them, and the revelation from Zundeia's character about a deeply unlikable thing for her puts her at odds with not only her friend group.
Oh no, we can spoil it.
Yes, they are at so a week before, a week before, a week before, they.
Are at their menu tasting.
Everyone is tipsy, leaning on drunk, and one of the couples, who's also in an interracial couple, says, what something we did before we got married was shared the worst thing we've ever done. So they all go around and share it and zendayas is that she planned a school shooting. It's not funny, but the movie is like supposed to just but it's very interesting because everything else.
That like, she didn't do the school shooting obviously, but everything else that everyone shares is terrible. Like the things that they did are also I mean, and you might think of it in a small way.
Like one of the one woman.
She literally lost what you're supposed to like was like a disabled kid in a closet and abandoned him and he like there was a search for.
Him, like and she said he was found. You don't know, you can't say anything about it. The other guy, a dog was attacking him and his girlfriend. He used his girlfriend as a human shield and then knew that he was going to break up with her, like doing that.
And then Robert Pattinson, Zendia's fiance, cyberbullied the kids so bad that like he had to leave Tom.
They are all, yeah, they all actually did those things, but of course yeah, when Zendia shared that, they were like and so the whole movie is about like the reaction to that leading up to the wedding, and then there's a whole bunch of drama at the wedding in the film in that's really And so this.
Movie was billed as a rom came because because I think I was very confused about what this movie was, even like in the promo and I was.
Like, what, you knew it was gonna have levity?
Like I knew it was going there was because the way people talk about like that there was some shocking twist it's a twenty four.
I was like, Oh, I feel like it's gonna be on the darker.
There have been rumors on like Reddit and stuff that it was a school shooting, and then like the week before a parent, like a Columbine parent made a comment about it, and so it was like okay.
But from the jump, I.
Kind of knew that it was gonna have some type of like quirkiness or levity to it.
So I don't think it was built as a traditional wrongcom.
But when you pick apart the elements of the film, like it's romantic, it's drama, is romantic because there's a wedding, there's like.
A but it is funny all the way through.
I do think there are romantic parts to the film though for sure. Yeah, when you see like their story of like how they met and things like that, Like in the beginning, I'm like, Okay, this is cute.
Yeah, at the beginning, I'm really stuck here, y'all.
Like I I I feel like this would be I'm struck by this being like a plot line in something that I mean, I guess in some ways it is a very sad reality of like our life. But like, clearly I gotta see the movie. Yeah, but but it feels like I would have trouble moving past the fact that she has planned this school shooting and like all of these other awful things been done.
I think, Yeah, the film, yeah, he does not treat any of it likely you see like a younger version of today, which is probably like some of the funniest parts of the film.
It implied that.
Like she was kind of like abandoned as a kid, like parents not around, bullied in school. There's like a racial aspect to that, like like I had.
Say, too much internet access, like yeah, controls.
Well, rental controls. Her dad was in the military. She's clearly like radicalized online. She has like posters of like little Wayne toning guns in.
Her room, like you.
I think they do a good job at explaining like how did someone even get to this point?
And then she doesn't do it, and she.
Also becomes like a gun from activist or just crazy.
It's not like Oh.
I think the film does a good job of like easing you into it throughout, so it does feel like now that you know what happened, it doesn't move on at all.
Yeah, and it just continues to bring up points that ask the question, like if our feet were held to the fire for like the things that we like almost it's like what is the line of almost and like it's almost a thought like at what point does it become something to be like charged for almost or like
like like publicly shamed for. I think it brings up a lot of points about that and how we just kind of shape our own morality, especially now when everything is your opinion is either a or it's and like that's it.
Yeah, you bring up a good point.
I think one of the things that stuck out to me about even that whole scene where they're admitting to their like the most terrible things is that all of them the size Indaya harmed a marginalized community and then they were all also outraged by a woman of color even having the thought of farming back. So there's like a lot of conversation and context around like feminine rage and black women being outraged or be reactionary to the
harm that's performed. It gets them. That doesn't necessarily it isn't overtly spoken about in the movie, but I do think it's hard to ignore when you.
Watch totally, Like you know, it's like hard to have the conversation without acknowledging that she was bullied. And I saw some people online saying like, well, she wasn't bullied that bad, but when you're bullied that, I don't know, how was she thirteen?
Like it doesn't take.
Much in other because you look different, Yeah, I know, like Zendaya presence is has more like I'm going to say she's white passing, but she's more like convinole might not be automatical that like she was like a black woman, like they may not read her that way, but the younger character is undeniable. I think that's where when we think of like school shooters, we do have this like, oh,
they're in other they're an outcast. And I think what I did enjoy about the film is in a very subtle way, it explored like how a black person could also feel that way. And I don't think when we talk about like bullying and then like the bullying to like violent rage pipelon, it's not saying like, oh, we don't get represented that way because like, but I'm like, I think it's fair to say, like maybe people have
felt that way before. And I thought it was almost like it was interesting that they explort that, and I appreciated it because I don't think, yeah, we don't see black people do school shootings, but who's to say that people have not felt that kind of like level of isolation before. Yeah. I also thought it was interesting that when they explored like why she didn't go through with it, it wasn't that she had a moral like oh I
can't do this. It was because someone did the school shooting first, and she was like, well I guess it.
Or it was like at all or something.
Yeah, so I'm saying so it's like she just I think it was like a double It was a double thing where someone did it first.
But also she saw.
How like repulsed people were the client and was like, well, this would other me further. And then her school has her like group therapy and like healing circles and things like that, and through that you see her become more connected to people in her school community. She starts like organized around like gun reform, and people like her and they're like complimenting her. And I think it also shows you the power.
Of community and feeling included in seen because it totally changed the trajectory of her life.
So I thought that was really interesting too.
But I like it looked funny because she's just like, yeah, I'm not gonna do it someone, and then.
Her excitatehood and then when she shared that when they were when she or I don't know if she shared it in that moment or if she shared it later with Robert Pattinson, Like why she didn't end up going through.
With it, it.
Was like even more of a reason to be like wait, so like it was like a thing that she didn't have this moral come around And then I don't know, it's just interesting because the high girl, I don't know her real name alone, Alana. Yes, she's like, well, my cousin is paralyzed from a school shooting, and so it
became like a personal thing for her. We can we'll talk more about like the down the line of it all, But I think it's interesting to see like where everybody pulled from when it came to like talking about what was z India like almost did or ide eated or you know whatever, and then like why she decided not to do it.
It's a little off base now that to what Elise was bringing up about school shootings, because when I watched the initially, and as I think about Zendaya in every world that she plays, I go, oh, this isn't meant to be a black woman, so because obviously we think black people don't do school shootings. But then I did some research afterwards, and there's not so much that black people don't do school shootings. It's just the way that we report on them once they happen. So it's never
a school shooting. It's it's gang violence, or it's reframed. That's something that wouldn't offer you a sympathetic you point for the shooter, which is a whole other thing that kind of definitely applies to the movie.
More from our conversation after the break.
I'm curious that your joy I have a question for you.
So the movie brings up to me an interesting question around how much would you be sharing. I mean, you're not a marriage counselor, but like with your partner before you get married, and like what is the line between withholding something or something just like it hasn't come up before, Like this is a big thing.
But honestly, if I was so ashamed of it have like buried it, I would.
Just be like I should tell you this because it's also like I was young and full of rage, Like haven't we all been young?
And maybe not to that point, but I do think it.
I think I do think it matters that it wasn't done and then you and then if that's what we're talking about, then that just like widens the pool of like who else has been in that same position anyways, But that was your question, doctor Joyce.
Yeah, I mean I feel like this is a tough question because this feels like something I would definitely want to know of my potential partner. I do think, like you said, like it counts for something that it didn't
actually happen, but what was the after fact? Right, Like, because to me, if you get to the point of planning something like this, then that does speak to a lot of rage and like the need to be talking to somebody about how we got to that place and what other things can happen, right, And it sounds like she did by getting involved with like gun reform and you know, like a lobbying against the thing that she was going to do, which is where she found her
sense of belonging. And I think for a lot of these cases, that's what you hear, right, like that these people feel very outcast and really othered and need some sense of community in a place to be seen. So I think it's good that she got to that place. But I think that that is definitely something I would want to know. And so I think there isn't really any like hard and fast rules about the kinds of things that you feel like you have to share with
a potential partner. But I think in the idea of like people making informed decisions, like if that would make a difference but about whether you would marry this person or not, then that may be an indication that it is something that needs to be shared, right like that.
I don't feel proud of this.
Here's how I turned my life around after this, but this is something I feel like you should know in the interest of like making a decision about who you want to build a life with.
Well, they all need to be asking those questions then, because I think locking a human being in a class, yeah, like maybe pretty awful.
Example, even during the.
Movie, I was like what would I say?
And I think I was like just thinking about the things that they sound like these are rejectively bad.
Like yeah, I don't have anything that touches up.
Like two things I would bring up and be like okay, like it's.
Not that bad, but there's certainly a question of when and how all. So, Doctor Lloyd, a platform that you should know is today's character is death in one eared and this is as a result of her practicing the school shooting. One of the bullets went off and made her death. So a whole part of her development with Robert Patterson romantically is that he tries to speak game em her but she can't hear any of it because
she's deaf. So he's kind of embarrassed behind that. But he knows that she's deaf, he just doesn't know why, and so had he ever inquired as to the why, uh huh, that he would know this then much earlier. But it is so much that you know this has impacted your life in such a way that literally you are physically impaired because of it. Why does it not come up in your relationship discussion?
Mm hmm, okay, that's yeah, that's the point of like maybe it did, Like maybe maybe outside of this, like that's not something we'll ever know.
I know, like, well, maybe what's the world that we don't know about? But then we can only do with what we're seeing.
I wanted to say, I think we started to talk about like Zenda being black in the movie, or like Issu black in the movie, or anyone could have been in this role. But I'm wondering if, Okay, sure, yes, she wants in data to be a lead in your movie because she is who she is. I think the blackness might come secondary or tertiary. I wonder the director is a Norwegian guy, and I think as I was watching it, I was like, hmmm, I wonder if maybe going into it he wasn't really thinking about like the
racial implications of her being black. But then as he's watching it, he's like, oh, this kind of plays in my favor because even like there's a moment in the movie after she drops this bomb, so to speak, where she's like making a smoothie. She's chopping up some fruit. She and Robert Pattinson are in the house and she goes to the room to ask him something and she has this big knife in her hand and.
He's like, oh, like he's shook, like, oh, I thought you were gonna, I don't know, get.
Me or whatever.
And she's just like, why are you acting like that? Like why are you acting like I'm this harmful person? And I think us.
Knowing like then Day.
I don't know if other people when they watch The Day, they're like, that's a black woman, But me watching I'm like, oh, okay, I'm thinking about how her like potential to harm is being received in a way. And I just was wondering, like, if that was a black woman, would we all be receiving it the same way?
And I don't think so. And so I feel like there's a fall off.
I don't know if it's a benefit, but there's a fall off of like how her horror potential to harm is maybe perceived because she is black, And I just don't know if that was the intention going into the movie.
I think it's interesting because there's a scene towards the end of the movie when she kind of walks out the bathroom and and her own wedding. She's like freaking out because people I think she's hearing people whisper about this and yes, oh so.
The secret has also left the circle.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, there's a whole.
There's a hole.
You're okay, but it does yeh, got it? Okay.
And the woman who like is whispering is outside and she's like taken aback. And it's a question that I asked him, like would someone be like objectively, it's a terrible thing to idea and plan, but if it was a white woman, would there be so much fear around like who is this person?
Actually? And it just made me.
Think about like when I had met people like first interactions and then years later they would say something like, oh, when I first met you, I was intimidated by you like me, That's.
What I mean, Yarah.
And it's very interesting because the character Alanaheim her name is Rachel in the film, who's the most punitive on her. You can see from the beginning of the film, even before the secret is revealed, that like she just didn't like her or was like jellous of her and like saying little things to try to like put her down, and to me that all felt like very racialized too. It was interesting because I'm like, yes, you once a day in your film. I think she's like legible to
so many like races. But I kind of appreciated that she is a multi racial black woman because I think it made the film more complicated in a way that was entertaining and allowed people to like talk about it. I feel like there should have been one like small racial joke just to like acknowledge it.
Okay, especially because the other part, Yeah, yeah, like the other couple was incial.
Yeah, I thought it was interesting.
I think I also appreciated, as we're looking at Rachel in the movie him and how she's interacting with Zendeya.
I think I.
Appreciated being able to relate to coming into contact with that type of like white feminine like rage where they're like, I feel really justified in this, and I am grandstanding in my like full morality because you did this and
that's bad. My misstep or my bad thing that I've done is forgivable or understandable because X I think like most black women have come into contact with that type of white woman, and so I think I was like, oh, okay, I know exactly what this is, and I think like most black women watching movie would probably understand that too.
Before we switch films, I do have a quick question for everyone, what will you answer to the worst thing that you've ever done?
Leah, I don't know that we're gonna do that.
Then this feels like it.
Could be an hr violation of these I don't know we uh.
Things like I mean, I don't even know what mine would be. I feel like like you, I'm like, oh, I think I stole like a pack of gum baby out of a.
Drug store or something.
First time, Mike, I stole like a pack of.
Gum and I was as I felt so guilty.
This was the first time you stole.
I stole a lot of the beauty supply store when I was very for sale. I think it was someone was eating it and we went around the back and I was.
Like mine, I simply remember mine was a lip gloss from Target when I was like set in remember so swissly.
It's like a part of development.
Right now.
I never stolen, not playing there, I.
Was stolen you anything.
I think about it all the time now, like when I see how high season this is in the grocery store and stuff checkout. But I haven't stolen.
No, maybe even that episode of the show.
But I feel like so many young girls, not me, but so many young girls go through stealing phases.
And I remember being in middle.
School and like people were stealing from like urban outfitters, and I was like, I remember my freshman year in college, and mind you, I stole that one time when I was young, but I wasn't like a thief.
My freshman year in college, I had this white friend.
We would go to brandy Melville, and I remember the first time we went to brandy Meilville. We're on the train back and she's pulling stuff out of her jack.
I was like, girl, you stole.
That, yeah.
On her like big corporation.
I'm like, girl, I'm not stealing with you. We are different, but she was still all the time.
That doesn't feel like maybe it could be a potential episode, because I mean, just like a lot of things, right, like kleptomania, which is the obsession with stealing, isn't of course about like not being able to afford the thing, right, It is mostly about can I get exactly get.
Away with it.
Yeah, that may be an interesting, interesting conversation, But I'm curious because all of you did react, it feels like, so positively to the film. How do you think your reaction to the number you gave the film would have been different if, like Sidney Sweeney was the lead actress versus Zindia, Like, if this were not an interracial cast, if it were just an all white cast, do you feel like you would have liked it as much?
It wouldn't have been as fun.
It wouldn't have That's like the number one thing, because part of film is like you project your own fantasies and understandings on it.
And I think with like an all white a.
Little more like a drug addiction or something like, it wouldn't have made sense by itself.
Yeah.
I also think so many shows, like when I think about like big Little Lies, and even like this Imperfect women that's on Apple are like obsessed with the tragic white woman.
We're like, we're sad.
Too, and so I tragic too.
Yeah, and I'm like feeling violent even that's like I'm not interested in that anymore. I think it's been done so many times on television or in films, so I thought this was even Robert Pattinson was in a movie last year, I'll Die My Love about like a tragic.
White woman in like early in their marriage.
So I think we've seen that so many times, So I do think the interracial aspect we've bened it up.
Yeah.
And I think also the fact that Zindea was the black woman who had planned the school shooting. I think that like added a layer of depth to it that made it a little bit different than something that we might.
Expect to swing forever twenty one sting.
I don't want to say Sweene no.
Yeah, I mean she's just who I thought of.
I can't take up any other like popular white actress right now, so that's just who I see it.
Yeah, should we move on to Yeah.
So switching gears to you Me and Tuscany, so we will also rate this one.
So what was your rating for this film, Bryo.
Mine, I would say like a six and a half seven. I think that I go into movies. Unfortunately, I'm just like a very realist person and some of the things and it just didn't feel realistic. I know it wasn't supposed to, so I had to like separate that, but that would be my rating.
Okay, what about you? At least I'm gonna.
Have to give it a five and a half. Sick, but it was an entertaining watch. Like it was I was laughing.
There were definitely like some unrealistic part that took me out of it. And I do think the movie felt dated, like not every movie has to be of the A twenty four sensibility, but it did feel like, oh, this may have been written and I love Will Packard, but even his sensibilities are very much like two thousand and nine through like twenty sixteen, and so I think that was very obvious in the movie, and I think that took me out of it.
Okay, what about you, Indy, I'm gonna give it a six. And that pains me because I do love Halle Bailey. I love the Bailey sisters, and so I was happy to see her on screen. But I agree as soon as the movie came on, I was like, oh, this is giving me early two thousands. Even the way it looks, it's like I don't want to be in so harsh to say like it didn't look stylistic, but it's like liked the actor and make the camera clear like it wasn't like giving me like any mood.
It's just like a Erry on the nose. It was just a very on the nose.
Movie, and like what you see is what you get, and you could probably predict half of it.
But it was like, I don't regret watching it.
I'm gonna give it a six as well. It feels like if Attica Locke and Nasty Meers came together in the most like filtered down way.
But I thought it was.
Really fun, like a fun watch, and I think that I we'll talk about it more. It's certainly a portrayal of a black woman in romance that we haven't seen before, which is what takes it up for me.
M m hm.
I also gave it a six, and I also, like you, inn Day, was thrown by something about like the lighting and like it felt hyper real.
It felt like.
Like a no, it felt like a three D almost and I was like, is this just my screen? Like why does it feel so bright? And so I was very confused by that. I also thought it was just fun though, right, and so I think I went into it thinking like, oh, this will just be like a
fun rom com and it was that. But to your point, at least it all so did make me think of like some of the black rom coms we had in like the nineties early two thousands, like A Half Plenty or not Love Jones, because I feel like that is a separate.
Genre of At least I don't think you love Love Jones. We haven't had that conversation on the podcast.
But it didn't feel like that because Love Jones felt a little like grittier and moodier to me, and to your point in day, this did not. But it felt like something I would have seen in like the nineties of two thousand in like that collection of rom coms that you could see on Lifetime or whatever, and you're like, oh, this was just a fun movie. So I know, before all of us saw the film, we talked about like, Okay, how do we.
Feel about this the leads.
I think I've seen a lot of conversation around like the chemistry.
Between the leads.
What were your thoughts after watching the film in terms of chemistry between reggae, reggae, reggae, joan reggae.
Yes, they had more chemistry than I anticipated. It did seem a little slow to connect for me, But for what it's worth if I'm like ignoring everything, all of the things that don't feel real about the movie.
I thought they were cutish. I thought they were cute. They're working with the script that they have, and so I didn't think I wasn't like not seeing it for them in the movie. I was like, Okay, it's cute.
You know, they had like a little meet cute, a little dissonance in their meet cute.
Sure, and at the end I was like, okay, they're cute together.
More from our conversation after the break, did anybody feel one way about their chemistry?
And You're mine was changed after the film.
Okay, So as.
The age gap, for sure, like, yeah, he appears younger on screen, which is good, but in the press tour of it all that kind of made me nervous. Also the messy person to me, the girls on Reddit are like they don't like even like each other in real life, and I'm like, no, I don't know that. That is how I went into the film, being on Reddit and being in doctrine.
I to hear that true.
So then I watched the film, I was like, actually, I thought they had really good chemistry. I think, like you said in it was kind of like slow to burn, but not in a like a slow burn way, slow to connect, which I think part of it is like the point of the film, given that like this is who she's allegedly engaged his cousin brothers. I think I was like, but I think I need one or two more beats of like, why do you guys like each other?
I think that's what was mittley for me.
At the end when they're in the vineyard and it's raining and she's like, I want to give us a chance.
I'm like, what you think language language, like give us a chance?
It just feels early, like I understand it's over the course of what five six days, but I'm like, give us a chance. This is like the first real life conversation y'all are having about a nonpolatonic relationship, and give us a chance just felt like the jump. I understand we got a tile loose ends, so just like the give us a few more beats. But it was crazy because I do feel like they were heavy handed with like the energy between them.
At the beginning.
I'm like, okay, we get it, y'all like each other, And then it was from that, yes.
That's what I'm saying. I was like a chance here.
Also, like this movie really stretched my tolerance of cringe because of what of cringe. Like there were times in the theater I was like, whoa, Like the secondhand embarrassment is bally weighing on you right now. I think typically like I can not go to the bathroom, but I think, pardon me going to the bathroom during the film, like I cannot hit.
What felt particularly cringey to you.
There are some jokes that people would laugh and I wasn't laughing, not because I was try on a state tight lick, but I was like, oh dang, maybe I'm just like I don't know, I'm strict.
My theater was like mostly white women. They were having a time in there.
I mean the singing, like singing of Neo.
I was like Mario, Mario.
Yes, the taxi driver, the sister in law, Oh yeah, this is I'll say, the sister in law. I love when a supporting character gives it their all okay character, I gotta give it to her.
The supporting characters made the film, Yeah, they definitely did make the film without them.
Yeah, I do agree that the supporting characters made the film. There's something in my just like heart of hearts, militant black soul that goes two orphans having to like find love through the devices of white people feel so spiritually wrong. It's like, is there a commentary about breaking generational curses? I don't know it just I didn't like that part of it, but I liked the feelm.
Yeah, I was gonna say, like that is the part that I think I appreciated probably the most, was like the grief conversations, and I feel like I would have liked to see more of that.
To your point, at least right like, it feels like that was probably.
A large part of the foundation of what made them so attractive to each other. But I don't feel like we got a ton of that, Not that we needed half the film, but I would have liked to see more of that. And I thought it was an interesting commentary on different responses to grief. Right he kind of threw himself into work and like went all in there, and like she ran away from it because it felt
too painful, which I think is true to life. So I could have stanned to see a little bit more of how they connected around their grief if we wanted to.
Talk about like connective tissue between this is I'm about to reach right now, connective tissue between the drama and you, me and Tuscany. I think it's in the field of black female representation, like underrepresentation of a black woman in an area, And for this movie, I think it's the underrepresentation of the black female hobosexual, because for the first thirty minutes, I was like, Oh, this is a hobosexual. She's just finding the next man, the next person whose
hotel room she can stay in. She's flying across the world to stay in a house that she knows she had no business being in, And I was just like, you know, you don't see black women on screen doing this.
Type of foolishes is that often? So I mean I appreciated the difference in there in.
That I mean, I think to your point. And then it's like the connectedition for me was that and why I think both kind of are subversive Walm comms. We don't get to see black women on screen not have it together. Like usually when you see a black woman in a Walm calm, she is uber six and if she's not uper successful, she's a matriarch. And if she's not a matriarch. She's something that's like respectable and dignified, and it's almost like, well, why doesn't she have love?
And then the whole plot of the movie has to humble this almost perfect person in order to justify them having like love. And I thought that it was great that in both of these films that they're like dealing with something and don't really have their shit together and they get to find love anyway.
Which I think brings me to my next question is there has been so much conversation around this film needing to be successful for other people's films to be made, and like, do you think that there is room for there to be just these mediocre black women rom coms are led by a black women cas or does it always need to strive for like black excellence, Like where are we in the stage of what our films can look like at this point?
I think there fully needs to be a room for like black mediocrity, And like I don't think the phrase black mediocrity is doraga because as long as we have multiples, like there's going to be a spectrum and.
There is white mediocrity north, south, east and west, and so.
It's just like it's only it's really only natural, like everyone's not going to hit the mark for everyone, and I think it's realistic to be like, Okay, this is just a regular black movie and some regular movie where black people are by black people, and sometimes you just want like the regular version, like and not everything needs to be high art, like it's like an entertaining little girl's night fun movie, and sometimes I think that's all things need to be.
I'm gonna have to agree.
I also think what I appreciate about the film, like obviously like race was a factor, but something I haven't.
Loved is let's tie in.
I'm gonna be shading a movie, but like, let's tie in the story about gentrification with black love, and I'm like, this feels really heavy, Like is.
The gentrification angle?
No, I'm saying, what's this? We love Brooklyn that.
Yeah, I got it.
Okay.
I didn't like that movie. It just felt too heavy handed with some of the themes. And I do think that is what puts pressure on black films to be like excellent, because yes, it is a movie about romance in love, but it's also a vehicle to do this other type of storytelling that is about like social issues, and I think that's where people start to expect a lot of it.
And it's not a bad thing and it can be done really well.
But I think we've had so much of that type of film that something like this were like, wasn't that good.
I'm like, guys, it's for shits and giggles, Like we literally.
Something.
What is the expectation of a rom com other than like I leave feeling good right like that?
That?
Yeah, like that is the expectation.
It's unfortunate though, because I feel like the expectation beyond us is like it needs to make back the money and more. Yeah, And it's just kind of like even looking at like some of the top like black TV shows and films, it's going to target a particular audience. It's going to overserve them, but it might not serve
the other audiences. And then from there they're not making the money and now it's like not a success, which is unfortunate and like not fair because to Enda's point, there is white mediocrity everywhere, especially in the TV and film industry. So it's interesting how we're like held to this different standard.
But we knew this.
Yeah, I thought about the movie when I was thinking about this and like black mediocrity whatever I thought about that movie speaking of Sidney Sweeney with Sidney Sweeney and Glenn what's his name?
Any anyone but you?
Any Yes, yes, anyone but you and I mediocre, mediocre, mediocre.
And but You're like oe, yeah, literally the same.
And I'm like, Okay, this movie is silly. But I think that movie made a lot of money, Like people loved that movie. So it's like a cheeky little movie. And so yeah, I agree. I think like we just deserve the same room to just do a cheeky little movie.
There's no message. It's not that deep because it's like everything cannot be that deep. It's exhausting. Yeah, and I wonder.
I mean, I'm sure this is the case, but I haven't seen anything to like echo this is when like white audiences see Halle and re je do they automatically assume this is not for me, right, like that this is a black rom com as opposed to like, oh, this is just a rom com with like attractive people,
which is what rom coms typically are, right. And so I think that is already like a large part of the audience that we are not going to get right, like the dollars are not going to come from them, which then puts all this pressure I think on the black community, like, oh, we got to go make sure that this film is successful because we want to continue to see these projects being made.
So we talked briefly a.
Little earlier about Love Jones, and so I want to wrap up now that this has to be anybody to answer. But when you think about like your foundational rom coms and like this genre for you, what film has.
To be on this list for you?
Obviously Love Jones. It's so good.
I feel like that movie like very messy relationship, but the tone insensibilities and like, oh men, who read that was like my ners, So definitely also like throwing it way back. Pretty Woman like again a movie that the premise is very questionable, like she is a hooker, but it is able to like explore way further than that and has like really good social commentary without being very heavy handed and is hilarious.
And then like without Pretty Women, you don't have like the Princess Diaries. If you've seen the movie, there's like characters in like multiple characters in Pretty Women are in the Prince's Diaries and they kind.
Of play off each other.
So those are really great and I have one more, but someone else go.
I think in terms of black rom coms.
I'm a big fan of The Last Holiday with Queen Latifa.
I think love that movie.
Speaking of Halle, Halle plays Halle and Chloe play like her nieces or something.
There's like a quick cut o there in that movie. Fun fact. But yes, I'm a big fan of The Last Holiday.
And honestly, when I was watching this movie, it reminded me of The Last Holiday because she goes across the world. She's just chilling and then she ends up meeting a guy and the blah blah, they fall in love. So I also this may be more controversial because I know people really hated this movie when it came out. I one of my comfort black rom com or yeah kind of is the photograph not It's like.
I know, I know, I know, I know.
I love the photography. I know I thought it was in.
The theater, y'all I turn up when I'm like, I will turn on that movie.
I also love the score Robert Glasper, but no fantastic.
The score is great, but I really do enjoy the photograph and all of its flaws. I just take it as it is if we're just speaking rom coms in general. Five Hundred Days of Summer with Zoe Dachel and Joseph or and Levitt. Loved that movie also when Harry met Sally because I love our friends to lovers, like plotline.
Huge, so you know those Circreduce also loved Jones.
On my end, I feel like growing up, obviously I've changed and developed and we've grown. I would have told you it was loving Basketball when I was growing up, because I feel like everyone in that film is not good.
Right, No, it's not great, and I'm feel like growing up, it's like, oh my gosh, so cute. And now I was an.
Adult, I'm like, oh this is poor by Night but maybe also controversial. But one of my favorite rom coms is too Can Play That Game. I actually wrote the movie.
I love that movie.
I also want to shout out about Last Night and Jumping.
Oh that like Stretch of Black Coms.
Yeah, even what's the film with like Kevin Hard and TROGI Phmson.
Like, say what you want? That is a good movie.
Heavy Lifting first, I need the second one.
My mom was like, you need to read Steve Harvey's act like a lady and even like at a young age, I was like, Okay, I'm not reading that, and I just something in me was just like I'm not reading that book. I never read it, but she was, She's like, you really need to read that book.
I'm like, I'm not reading that.
But what's also so interesting is like the movie is a promotion of the book, but it's also like telling you, like, the book does not work bs.
Literal bs several arguments against them literally, I think for me, in addition to Love Jones being on the list, the Best Man is also on that list. Yeah, there's a lot of mess there, but it feels like it comes together in the end. And then like the whole trio of films, right, I think make for just great roalm, calm energy.
So that was my answer is The Wood.
The Wood is a rom com, right, It's the was more like Brotherhood.
I don't remember what happened in the Wood. I remember them playing basketball in the park, but I don't mean I want to say.
Like friendship is romantic, we can follow.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's like twinkles of romance in there, of course, but yeah, yeah, well lots of fun with this conversation.
As always, thank y'all so much for joining me again. Please share with us where people can find you on social We'll start with you, Bria, So.
I am as the Fabria everywhere.
I also have a pop culture page where I'm going to more this aid what Bria said too perfect.
Elise, I am.
On Instagram and TikTok.
It's my first and last name, Elise, Elis and Indie.
I'm on Instagram at day Las soul in the E y E l as you well, and I'm also on TikTok. It's just in day with a lot of It might be five, it might be six. Try and find me.
Just look for the link. Well, thank y'all so much for joining me again.
Thank you, I thank you.
I always love when I get to chat with the producers. I hope you enjoyed our conversation to learn more about their work and to weigh in on your thoughts about the drama and you, me and Tuscany. Be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com, slash session for sixty one, or join us over in our Patreon. You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for
the podcast. Drop us a message at mimmo dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indietubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank y'all so
much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Take it care