Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session four or fifty four of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors. Black single mothers have long been the subject of stereotypes, political debate,
and cultural criticism for decades. Narratives in media and public discourse have framed them as the root of social problems, rather than recognizing the complex realities of their lives, families, and communities. But the truth is far more nuanced. Black single mothers have always been central to the strength and survival of Black communities, Their caregivers, leaders, and culture shapers, often raising children, supporting extended family members, and contributing to
their communities in powerful ways. Today's guest is writer and cultural critic Jamila Lemieux, whose work has helped shape conversations about race, gender, and culture for more than a decade. Beginning our career in the Black feminist blockisphere, Jamila has written in edit for many major publications and has become known for her short cultural commentary and advocacy for Black
women and girls. In our conversation, Jamila joins us to discuss her new book, Black Single Mother, where she explores the realities of single motherhood through her own story as well as the stories of other Black women. We talk about the stigma attached to single mothers, the importance of community and cool parenting, how media narratives shape perceptions of black families, and what it means to redefine family structures
outside of traditional expectations. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session, or join us over in our patreons to talk more about the episode. You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Heyja Vila, thank you so much for joining us.
Hi, thank you for having me.
I'm very excited to share with you. I'm a longtime fan of your writing, so I'm very excited to talk with you more about your work and about the upcoming book. Thank you.
I'm a longtime fan of yours too, So.
For people who may not be super familiar, can you talk to us in your own words about what your work is and what you write about.
Yeah, I'm a writer primarily in the service of black women and girls. My professional writing career started around two thousand and eight, and I was an early member of the Black Feminist Blog, a sphere that really shifted on an offline discourse about gender and identity, and I worked as an editor for some years. I've edited many of your favorite writers, and I am releasing my first book, Black Single Mother.
Yeah. You have written probably lots of pieces that people are familiar with, maybe in theme, but don't necessarily know that it was your writing. And because your work has covered such a va it's like a variety of topics, I'm curious to know how did the topic for the book become the thing you were going to write your first book about.
Well, it's interesting. I worked with the literary agent Tanya McKinnon for at least five years before we settled down on a topic for this book. I had rejected suggestions that I should write about black single motherhood because I was afraid that if I put my name behind it in that way. And I had written about being a single mom and essays and talked about it openly on
social media. It's something about publishing a book on the subject to me, felt like that's going to mean that I'm a black single mother forever and ever, when that's not what I've wanted for myself. I've wanted to be married, I've wanted to have an additional child. And so finally Tanya convinced me that this was a book that needed to exist and that I had a story that needed to be told. And I'm very happy that I decided to embark upon that journey.
Do you talk in the book about like the urgency that you failed when you had your baby to be partnered right to erase this scarlet letter? Can you talk a little bit about that urgency? And as women, we often will kind of give ourselves to the validation of what other people think we should have as opposed to what we actually want for ourselves.
Yes, no, I felt that, like, Okay, I'm a single mom, she's got a great dad. But I somehow have to fix this. I need to find a partner, I need to get married, I need to wreck fy my mistake. I believe that for a while. But I say this, at no point in my life, pree motherhood or afterwards, have I ever truly settled when it came to a committed relationship. So as much as I wanted to be married, I wasn't willing to just be with anyone or to accept somebody who wouldn't have been a great partner and
a great stepdad, a great friend to me. So theoretically I felt like I needed to hurry up and do this, but in reality I took my time and looked forward suitable mate.
And what do you have to say about I mean, the book really talks about this in depth, but what would you have to say about like just the ways that black single mothers are portrayed, especially in our community.
I mean there's just been this pervasive messaging in media from politicians, from preachers for a very long time, suggesting that black single mothers are somehow responsible for the challenges in the Black community, responsible for the marriage rate, that we are the architects of our challenges and it's just simply not trip. Outcomes for the children of single parents are largely tied to economics. So where people are economically challenged,
their children are going to face certain challenges. That stands whether those parents are married or not. Black single mothers at every class level have played a very important role in the community, have sustained the children of the community, are oftentimes tasked for elders and other relatives in the community, and I think we should be celebrated for the heroines that we are as opposed to castigated for somehow harming our people.
How do you feel like becoming a mom has changed the way that you work in like the ways that you critique, the things that you critique.
I will say this stage your motherhood, having a thirteen year old versus the early stages of my motherhood, I think it's made me more empathetic. It thinks it's made me more patient, and it's made me want to be really precise with my words. I don't want to hurt people. I don't want to upset them unnecessarily. I want to regard people with kindness and understanding to the extent to which they deserve it.
Yeah, I follow your social media rants often because I'm also a mother in the trenches of middle school parenting, and that is often when it feels like, how do you feel like you have changed and what have you learned about yourself as your little one has grown.
I'm even more aware of my own humanity and fallibility that I am literally just a girl trying to figure it out. I may be very influential and important this person's life, but I'm a person too, So sometimes I fall short. Sometimes I say the wrong thing. I apologize to my child. I try to hold myself accountable. Let her see me holding myself accountable. I think many of us, as children, think that somehow our parents have all the answers.
And now I'm very clear that my parents, just like myself and you, we're making it up as we.
Go along, just trying to do the very best that we can. So we've already talked about your long end story career, and because of some of the things that you write about, I think, well, I know it has made you the target for lots of backlash, lots of hate speech, and a text and cyber target. How have you maintained your mental health and protected your mental health in the face of.
This times where it took a toll on the I'm not as active on social media as I once was. I did take some time away to kind of not engage with that level of vitrioll and abuse for a while, but I'll stay to light throughout it all. I've always been convinced that I'm correct. I think I know what I'm talking about. I think I'm right, so I feel you can attack me if you want to. But nobody's
ever challenged any of my opinions. Nobody's ever said anything in an attack sort of way that made me think differently about anything, So they haven't succeeded.
And much of your work really comes from a lens of kind of examining pop culture and like the media that we consume and how that provides larger messages. Why do you think the lens of pop culture is often so focused only on the struggles of black mothers as opposed to the joys in the triumphs of black single mother I.
Think there are a lot of decision makers in media, black, white, and otherwise who are coming from a place of bias and ignorance when it comes to the multi fasted lives of black women. Black women more specifically are and particularly
black single mothers. From what I've come across, there's a lot of people that are making TV shows in Hollywood that grew up upper middle class, that are coming from two parent households and perceive that that is the only way that a black family can be effective or successful, and so they're doing what they know. They're reflecting what they know, but unfortunately what they know does not reflect the community at which we live.
And going back a little bit too, the things that you have shared online, has there been a cost to you of sharing the messy your points right? Like you are very honest about parenting online, has there been a cast to sharing those things?
I don't know. I mean, if there are opportunities or things that I've missed out on because of my honesty, I was never aware of it. I've wondered, has there ever been a man I dated who who decided he didn't want to deal with me? Or somebody I might have had a crush on who was turned off by that I think that's possible, but it's never been presented to me directly.
More from our conversation after the break. In a letter to your own mom, you asked, how could littelone me be the center of anyone's universe? How has your perspective shifted since Naima is in the world, and how have you balanced like being the center of her universe while also wanting to be the center of your words?
You know, I have so much admiration and gratitude for how my mother raised me, but I have chosen to operate differently in terms of just having a fuller life outside of motherhood, having a career that I'm passionate about, dating, socializing. I recognized that my mother and I became mothers a very different stages of life, under very different circumstances. Like I want Naima to see me as a possibility model.
That want her to know that, Oh God, I don't want to misquote this person, so I won't say it, but I just want her to know that motherhood is not the end of anything, that it can be the beginning of so many things, so many experiences, and I've just done my best many times, I've fallen short. For the most part, I think I've done a pretty good job of making sure that she's the heart and center of everything. But everything is more expansive than just the relationship I have with her.
And how do you feel like that is going.
I think it's going well. There have been times where she said, I wish I could just have both my parents at the same time. And it's not that we don't do things together, but we don't do everything together right. You know, times where she's wanted to be a one household but it was her day at another. So it's not always easy. I think overwhelmingly, I in her father have done a really good job of giving her the best of each of us.
So there's a section of your book called the Multiverse where you have brought in the stories of lots of different single black moms. Why was that important for you to do?
Because you know, it's funny because this the book I wrote, was not the book I sold. I had originally envisioned chapters that had particular things that they related to the lives of black women, and that I would talk to a lot of experts, But when it came time to sit down and write, I realized the primary experts on Black single motherhood and their experiences are going to be Black single moms. And some of these women are women I probably would have talked to you anyway, right like
Yaba Bla or Toronto Burke or Tinya Fields. But some of them are women who I've known or grew up with, or just in my community who had interesting single motherhood stories. And I feel that as a single mother, and as a child of a single mother, I am privileged in a number of ways. I had an active dad. My daughter has a much more active dad than I did. Active as a spectrum, and it comes to dad's active,
it was certainly on a spectrum. But I had a very present father, and my daughter has a very active dad. And that's not always the case. It's something I was keenly aware of as a kid. I had so many friends who just didn't have fathers. And so because my daughter has a great dad, I have help, I have support. I'm not doing it every day by myself. And I've also worked in media. I'm light complexion and college trained
and I've been on TV. Like in certain ways, I've just had certain privileges that other Black single mothers have not, so I didn't feel that one woman's story, or even just my story and my mother's story were sufficient for me to effectively talk about what it means to be a single black mother. I needed to talk to other women who were having different experiences and overlapping experiences.
And what do you feel like you learned from having all of those other stories included.
The firms and like, what we all have in common is this deep abiding love for our children, just this willingness to do whatever it takes, whatever they need to keep them happy and fed and loved.
You talk publicly about the move that you made from New York to Los Angeles and how you were making that decision with being a mom in mine right. There are also, I think many other of our listeners who are considering, like, oh, do I make a move and now I'm considering my child's life. What suggestions or advice might you have for somebody who's considering a similar move.
Do not move to a place where you do not have a village unless there is some life altering, fabulous opportunity that is guaranteed, right Like I was fortunate I came here. I had a cousin who has since passed away. Who is here? I have my daughter's father and stepmother, and that was basically it. I did not have many friends here. I had some acquaintances here. The job that I was supposed to come here and do disappeared as
soon as I got here. So if I had it to do over again, the only reason I would still do it is because of where I am now six and a half years later. But six and a half years is a long time to struggle and to be figuring things out and trying to make friends, and the dating scene here sucks, so taking to consideration who's going to be around you. I was lucky that my daughter's father was also here. This was a joint relocation. I would have never moved if I didn't have my co
heir in here. And even again, it's just like I didn't have friends. I didn't have people who cared about me, didn't have OJEF, I didn't have anything. So if you got a couple friends in Atlanta and you're thinking about going from DC to Atlanta, cool. If you don't know about any Atlanta, just know that in most places it is hard as an adult to start over and meet
new people. Just really think about what you need in your life to feel happy and successful somewhere, and dating if that's something that matters to you, and I know it doesn't matter to all single moms, but if it is something that is a priority to you, take some time to find out what dating looks like in the place that you're going to.
That's something that you've been sharing more about, like your dating adventures. What would you say about dating as a single mom and things that you might suggest us share with other people.
It's been an interesting journey. I will say again, I think it's been easier for me because I have a great co parent, But like I was a soldier of love. I put a lot of time and effort and energy into meeting somebody. And if that's something you want to do, I think understand how much space in your life do you have to give to it, how much does it matter to you. It will be more challenging than dating as a person without a child, but not impossible. You very well may find what you want And what.
Kinds of considerations have you made in terms of like when people met Naima.
Only two people have met Naima, so they would have to be my boyfriend. We would have to be in a committed relationship where we're talking about the future and the potential of expanding my family. It wouldn't just be somebody who's like, he's cool. Theated a guy for like seven months, he never met Naima. It would have never been appropriate for him to me Naima the guy she
has met. I wasn't with them for seven months when they met her, but I had it been that long, but I knew this is somebody who's going to be in my life. And the first person I introduced her to he was long distance, so it wasn't necessarily like, Okay, because you've met him, you're going to see him all the time. But he had a big role in my life. Man and I cultivated a relationship between them.
So you mentioned in terms of the move, you should not move anywhere where you do not have a village. And I think that there are also people who are thinking about, like, Okay, I want to build my family, Like there are all kinds of technology and advances in medicine that allow people to build a family even if
you do not have a traditional partnership. What suggestions do you have for people about how to start building their village and like cultivating a community that will help to care for you and your child.
You know, I'll talk to people. One of the moms did I interview in the book, Ayana Bird, had a child on her own as a single parent from Birds and moved to another country. And she's happy and they're thriving. So everyone is different. But I think, be honest about what do you need? Can you do this in isolation? Will you be okay? Some moms. I think my mom is one of them. Largely it was just me and her,
and I think that was amazing for her. But if you need something else, if you need somebody to come hold that baby a few hours a week, then you should think about bringing a child into the world under the circumstances in which you can comfortably raise them.
And in your work, you've talked a lot about like shifting from a Eurocentric construction of family back to one that is more based in the African matriarchy. What does that look like in like the practical data da Scent.
Remember that like matriarchy doesn't send her mother's the center of children, you know. I mean, so it's about like creating systems and communities that we need to ensure that everyone has what they need right, not just children, not
just women, but everyone. But like being intentional, like being a girl's girl, supporting other women, showing up for mothers before you become one, showing up your girlfriends, not thinking that because you're in a relationship now, you don't need to go see your girls, go pick your single girl up from the airport at midnight, because somebody needs to
do that. I think this shift toward matriarchy that we're saying the very least on social media and people talking about like what that means is essential to the survival of Black people because this is where we come from. Women led doesn't mean that there's no role for men, right, and that men are not leaders and important and essential
to what we're doing. But I think we do need to return to this foundation that we have of women being loved and supported and trusted as leaders and in many ways the moral compass of our people.
Why do you think there has been so much hesitance in resistance to that kind of frame.
It's white supremacist patriarchy. We've been indoctrinated, We've been told that the only way to be a family is with the man in the front, the woman in the bag. We're emulating our oppressor and what we've seen him do, so we're not necessarily thinking first about loving healthy relationships. We're thinking about a man on the top woman underneath him, and that definitely just doesn't reflect who we are as
a people and what our experiences have been. And when I think of the families that I know that have been most successful, regardless of their income level, that's just never been what it looked like for them.
More from our conversation after the break, what are your hopes for how people will engage with your book? What do you hope that people will take away from it?
I want people to reconsider their thoughts and actions as it relates to black single moms. Most urgently, how are you showing up with the black single moms in your life? How are you supporting them and questioning what are those attitudes that you have about them and what are your biases that That's what I want most. I want people
to tip their hat. And this does happen sometimes I'm not gonna say it never happens, because I think a young man gets draft to the NBA or the NFL and it's like my single mom got me here, and we support that. But oftentimes, unless we're hearing one of those stories or somebody succeeding fabulously, when we hear about single moms, we have this distaste, we have this negative reaction. We don't feel compelled to serve them. And I think that's the problem.
Mmmm. We talk a lot and hear a lot about like breaking generational cycles, breaking generations, curses. What do you feel like that actually looks like day to day.
I think it's recognizing what went right and what went wrong in your lineage and your own experiences and your parents' experiences, and making choices to adjust according I'm a second generation single mother. I don't think that's a curse, you know. I don't think that me not being married to my daughter's father has cursed my child. And I want for my child to become a mother under the circumstances she
most desires. That's what I want for her. But if it doesn't happen a way, I want her to be successful and be supported either way.
If there was something that you could go back to your eighteen year old self and tell her about the milfy baby mama that you would become in the future, what would you say to her?
I would just say, why shouldall girl like you have no idea? Eighteen year old me could not have seen this version of me coming at all. I don't know if there's anything I could have said to her that would have prepared her, But I think I might have said what the incredible Bebby Smith says often, which is it gets greater later.
When you hear the phrase black single mother, what do you think people assume and what do they miss?
I think they are so irresponsible. I think they have so struggle, and I think that what they miss is nuance. There are so many ways in which a woman can become a single mother, right. She can choose it, she can break up with the partner, she can become widowed, her man can become incarcerated. We all got here in so many different ways. And it's this same because there's this idea that being married will protect you somehow, right, And it's like I see how people talk about divorced
single moms online too. There's not much more respect for them than there is for women who have been single moms since birth right or who were never married to the children's fathers. So I think it's important that those of us are single moms stop looking for any sort of external validation of our motherhood and just pay attention
to the examples around us. And if we're being honest about history, single mothers have been performing, have been raising happy, healthy children, have achieved great things, and deserve to be treated with the same amount of respect as anyone else.
What kinds of things and supports have really helped you to get more comfortable in validating your own experience as a mom.
Talking to other black women, The fact that I've had a platform throughout my motherhood. I've been able to communicate on social media. I've been able to fire off random thoughts about single motherhood and be affirmed and know that other people were connecting to these experiences too. I haven't had to do this in isolation.
What part of your experience as a single mother do you feel like people are least prepared to hear.
People probably least prepared to hear me take accountability for the downfall of my relationship with my daughter's father, Like I own the fact that I'm the woe who mester, you know, And ultimately I think we were incompatible. I think we were very young, not all about shame and blame for me. But if you're shame of blame, the
majority of it goes on me, and that's okay. I don't have a problem saying that there are single mothers who end up single mothers because they weren't great girlfriends or wives, And that's okay, right, because we know of many people who are single fathers or you know, who have created single mothers because they were bad partners, bad boyfriend's, bad husbands. But I don't think that we wone create space for women to have also messed up in relationships
and owned that. But too like even when men have been the villains of those situations, we don't look at them as if they've somehow done something wrong. But any single law short of a widow is essentially seen as somehow being the architect and being wrong and having failed some way. So I will take responsibility for what I did do wrong that relationship, but at the same time, I am not a failure because I may have failed my boyfriend.
What do you think it will take to have a shift in the ways that people think about single moms and making the mom the villain as opposed to the fault.
I think it's going to take an increased invisibility and popular culture of single mothers, and I think that white women are going to be essential to this. More and more of them across the world are choosing single motherhood, They're choosing not to be married, and that is going to lead to increased reporting, increased study, hopefully increase resources,
but certainly increased the tension. And I think that Black women have to remind people that we've been doing this work for a long time, where the blueprint for single motherhood. But we're going to also have to be unashamed and be proud. I think it's really interesting. I can name a lot of writers who are or were black single mothers, but none of them publish a book about black single motherhood.
And do you feel like that's connected to your own back against writing about it?
And as I think plenty of them were dealing with the same shame, the same even if they didn't feel personally ashamed or guilty that they didn't want to be associated with the stereotypes. They didn't want to deal with the backlash you didn't want to hear from the podcast bros.
Oh goodsh Do you feel like there is a difference in the ways that we talk about in like the perceptions of moms who are single moms because of like a relationship not working, versus people who become single moms because of something like IVA.
Absolutely, I rarely. I'm not a woman who's done IVA for IBI, so I can't speak for their experiences, but I don't hear them being criticized in the same way that women who were in a relationship they failed are being criticized, Which is interesting because if single mother is inherently wrong, win't choosing it without a father being present
at all be just as bad? And like, yes, there've been people on the religious right who've criticized it, and maybe that's the level of intention that goes into in vitual fertilization or IVI that like people respect that differently than they do somebody who ends up a single mother unintentionally. But I do think that as more women choose IVF, I'm curious to see will there be more scrutiny on with this whole male loneliness epidemic and men are not
getting partnered. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the backlash that we've experienced does get translated or get a sign to women who chosen single motherhood from birth.
Mm hm. You mentioned the podcast brows and we both smirked because it feels like they're just freaking havoc in so many different ways. Why do you feel like black single mothers have become such a topic and a target for a lot of them and a lot of the conversations they.
Have, we're easy to punch down on. There's already this distaste for us, and I praise the rooms for that. Back to the moyang Am report in the book and talk about like this history of blaming black single mothers for the state of the community. But when I think of not just the black podcast bros, but the white ones, single mothers are often a punching bag because it's a group of people that folks, no matter what their politics,
oftentimes feel comfortable attacking. It's a woman who is defined by her relationship to a man, who's existing in the absence presumably of a man. Right she's unclaimed, she's unchosen, so whether she's divorced, whether hear her boyfriend broke up somehow, she's doing something that you're supposed to do in the context of a marriage, and she doesn't belong to anyone allegedly right, So we're just easy to target, and for so long, so few people have been willing to defend us.
How are you feeling as it gets closer to the book's release. I mean, you're somebody who's written so much, but I think that there's something that's very special about like having your first book be out in the world. How are you feeling leading up to the room.
I'm excited, nervous. I'm scared about my parents reading it. I'm going through all the emotions.
What are you worried about in terms of your parents reading it?
I tell the story of their relationship, and I think that I was very generous and I don't print all the sort of details, but I am honest about the things that happen in our family that are uncomfortable.
And so what are you expecting in terms of their.
Reaction, either embrace or estrangement.
We'll see. We'll see, oh not oh not a strangent. So let us know where we can stay connected with you, Jamila. What is your website? Where can we grab our coffee of the book and how do we stay connection?
So my website is Jamila Lamut dot com. There are more updates to come, but the basic stuff is there now. I am active on Instagram and threads at jamil Lamute, and my book Black Single Mother is available where books are sold. You can get it from all the major retailers. You can also get it from a number of any booksellers, including the Reparations Club in La Cafe con Lei Roads in Brooklyn, Colin Response in Chicago, and Kinder Spirits in Houston.
And many of these places also have it available for sale online so you can order it. I can order it from Reparations Club. They will ship you a signed copy.
And you will also be on tour, so if people want to come and see you talk about the book, they can also look up on your website to find tickets.
Yeah, right, right now. The tour information is on my Instagram and Thrance pages. I will eventually update my website, but I've got a number of dates. I'm doing Ladilli, New York, Miami, Atlanta, Houston, and we're working on DC and Chicago perfect well.
We will be sure to include all of that in the show notes for your episode. Thank you so much for sending some time with us today.
Thank you.
I'm so glad Jamila was able to join me for today's conversation. To learn more about her and her work, or to grab a copy of her book, be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session four fifty four, and don't forget to text this episode to two of your girls right now and tell them to check it out. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions
or suggestions for the podcast. If there's a movie or book you'd like us to review, or have thoughts about topics you like to hear discussed, drop us a message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapists in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy
for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and come on over and join us in our Patreon for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and much more. You can't wait to see you inside. You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indiechubo and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me
again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,