Jesus and the Accuser (w/ Chad Bird & Ken Jones)

The Reformed tradition tells us we have three great enemies, the world, our flesh, and the devil. And the way in which we often forget how he can get to us is the accusing us we have everything our flesh has failed us so many times we have every reason to be accused and we are told by revelation that he accuses the brothers night and day

At our conference this last year, this spring, at our Law Gospel Conference for Theocast, Justin Perdue preached a powerful lecture on Jesus and the accuser and how he often comes at our assurance and our hope and our righteousness. getting us to stand in our own place, trying to trust in our own righteousness, or just completely doubting ourselves altogether. It's a powerful lecture. After the lecture, we did a panel discussion with Chad Bird.

Ken Jones, myself, and Justin. And that's what you're about to hear is the panel discussion. So if you'd like to hear Justin's lecture, you can go to our website. It'll be linked in this episode here. If you go down and you see the link to the lecture, or you can go to YouTube and find it there.

and then come back and listen to this discussion. But we wanted to put this out. Justin and I are doing some traveling right now and we're not available to get into the studio. So we wanted to put these episodes out because they're powerful. They're a little bit shorter.

But man, the discussions are great. And the discussions are going to be based upon Justin's lecture. So I encourage you to go listen to that and come back and hear this podcast. Even though if you don't, the feedback and the interaction we got with Chad and Ken were... more great as it relates to how Satan comes at us to try and knock us off our confidence, to question the gospel, to question the sufficiency of Jesus. So hope you enjoy this and we'll see you in just a few weeks. Hey guys.

This is Justin. Maybe you know that you are forgiven because of Jesus Christ, but you're wondering, what does Jesus have to do with my Christian life? How is he involved? in my sanctification even? Or is he concerned at all with the ways that I struggle and the way that my life goes up and down? Is there any comfort for me in Jesus when it comes to all of that? Well, I've written a book called More Than Forgiven.

how being in Christ changes everything, that deals with this topic from Romans 6. You can find this book at theocast.org.

Justin, you introduced something that we just don't think a lot about the concept of the great accuser yet. Revelation 12 tells us about this. We have the story with Joshua. And it's weird because going back to what you can see versus what's unseen, what's healthy about what Justin presented for us today, and I'd love to have... you guys speak on this as well. When you can identify the source material and who is the one that gave it, it causes you to react to something, right?

So if I read to you some instructions on how one should conduct their life, and then I told you the source material on that is Adolf Hitler, you'd be like, yeah, that does not sound good, right? But Satan is so good at what he does. He masquerades.

Right? What's the best way to do a lie? Now we're talking about Satan is a very good and crafty preacher of the law. Yeah. And he uses it to assail and accuse Christians. And one of his tactics is to... convince you he doesn't even exist sure right but it is healthy and good to know that uh and and i was thinking about this as you were as you were preaching That what we're not saying, if someone disagrees with us, they're satanic.

But at the same time, at the heart of, if you add any law into the gospel, he is the father of all lies and that's a lie. If I can really, yes. And I think that there are many preachers. who in their preaching sound more like the accuser than they do our savior. Yeah. Not saying they are satanic, not saying they're of the evil world. Or they even know what they're doing. But they sound more like the accuser than they do Jesus.

If I'm going to make one other comment, just because I want to say this. So like even some of the imaginary dialogue stuff, I remember reading Richard Sibbes, the Bruce Reed. Like Thomas Goodwin does this all the time. Luther did this. I mean, in terms of dialogues between a believer and the devil or even Jesus speaking to us. I think those are, for me, I think they're very powerful.

gripping, because we use our imaginations all the time, but these kinds of things have been on the minds of the saints through the centuries where they thought in these ways that yes, this is the evil one accusing me and it goes like this. You know, like Richard Sibbes under the Bruce Reed, I will never forget that Satan's accusing the believer and it's like, you don't have any faith and love kind of thing. And the believer's like, yeah, you're right.

It's not much. And the devil's like, well, Jesus ain't gonna regard that. But eventually it gets to this response where it's like, no. He does not break bruised reeds. He does not put out smoldering wicks. And he will cherish that little flicker of faith and love in my heart that he gave me until he's brought judgment to victory. Right? Those things changed my life.

years and years ago yeah and um it's it's interesting i was just at a conference thursday and and i spoke on fighting the good fight and Part of my discussion or my talk addressed how Satan uses believers in his fight against God, his continual... battle against God and one of the things and so we cited some of those passages and just like you're saying when we

Paul warns the Corinthians that a brother has been overtaken in a sin and you have already restored him. Be careful because we're not unaware of Satan's devices. And I wonder how many people have felt pushed away. by the church because we say that Christ has forgiven our sins and then we see real sin. And then we push them away and try to break them down.

Satan, that's a weapon. So I really appreciated that, that he accuses. And it's not so much that he's just, you know, we know he tries to accuse us before God, but he tries to accuse us before each other.

And yeah, so I really appreciated that. Yeah, a couple of thoughts. The verse that we've cited several times, our Bible is not against flesh and blood. Doesn't mean that spiritual forces don't use flesh and blood. Very true. Exactly. I mean, how do they speak? Well, typically they speak through the human voice. When you look throughout the Old Testament, you have false prophets galore.

And you have false teachers in the New Testament. Jesus himself foretold this. Paul foretold this. So don't ever kind of, don't divide this too widely and think, oh, my battle's not against flesh and blood, against spiritual forces.

And so I don't really have to worry about flesh and blood. Oh, yes, you do. Because the flesh and blood are going to be the voices that the powers of darkness use to accuse and to mislead. And then another thing that I was thinking of when you were... not just when you were speaking Justin but other times too about how often the adverbs throw us off

You know, do you sincerely believe? Are you truly repentant? This isn't original with me, but I love this quote that adverbs are the enemy of the gospel. Because the adverbs always circle back to me. So am I truly repentant? Do I sincerely believe? And all of really that, what is that that's asking is, do I have enough? faith. Do I have adequate repentance? Well, even a tiny faith holds the full Christ. Amen. Even this burning, this glowing ember has the full fire.

of the love of God. It's not the size or the quality of my faith that matters. It's the size of the heart of Jesus and it's the quality of his love that matters. I know, Chad, you and I had this conversation. And I just had it with another Lutheran brother who's here at the conference. He's like, man, I'm not from your tradition, but I've been real encouraged. And we talked about why. And it's like, well, the tie that binds us, our particular...

portion of the Reformed tradition and you as a Lutheran is that extra nos thing. We've talked about, it's that confessional orientation that Jesus stands outside of us unaffected by how we're doing. And we look outside of ourselves to Christ always to save what's wrong in us. And that's what binds us, I think. You know, and we are heirs of the Reformation and that is the heart of Reformation theology and Reformation doctrine.

Yeah, a couple of things. One in particular I think is very helpful, and that is how, especially when we've been overtaken in various situations, whether sin or suffering, that Satan attempts to undermine the sufficiency of what Christ has done. And especially if you failed, okay, now you have to really prove your sincerity. And I've made this point. in different contexts, and I'm not trying to, you know, throw shade on anyone, but what we've seen in many of our churches is more

olive oil and a diminishing of the significance of the Lord's table. Because the idea is you need an extra anointing. And it diminishes the significance of the table. And whatever the theology is behind some, you know, come up and get this, whatever. I've seen this correspond in various denominations where...

we somehow think that maybe because of what I've done, whether it's rededications, and I think it opens the door to that same sort of thing, but the idea that... somehow what Christ has accomplished in his life, in his death, in his resurrection, and his present session before the Father is not enough. If you're new to Theocast, you may not have heard of this word.

it's called pietism you ever felt like the christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy that you wake up worrying about how well you're going to perform instead of thinking about what christ has done for you It's dread versus joy, really. That's pietism. Pietism causes Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope, not in what Christ has done, but what they're doing.

And we have a little book for you. It's free. We want you to download it. And we're going to explain the difference between pietism and what we call confessionalism. Reformed theology, really, how it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ.

And when Jesus says, come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like? You can download it at our website. Just go to theocost.org. I think 1 John, it'd be interesting to have a dialogue about this real quick, but 1 John is a great example of this.

How is 1 John always used in modern evangelicalism? Litmus test of salvation. That's right. Yeah, let's see if you're truly saved. What I think is funny is John goes, hey, test the spirits. And he's writing to people and he tells them over and over again, you are children of God. You are saved. You are the fathers. You are these things. Test the spirits. Why? To make sure they're of the Lord. Because you're going to have people.

undermining christ and so it's like okay you say you're of the lord let's talk about jesus for a moment because we're going to find out here yeah did he come in the flesh and do you and then again one of the most christian things we do do you acknowledge that you have sinned

And are you casting yourself on him, right? These are the things we ask. But I think it is fascinating going back to what you said. So tying it all together, you have a manipulation of the text from humans and John saying, hey, whatever spirit they're saying they have.

Put it to the test with the gospel, and we'll see if they affirm or deny, which is nuts, because in our world, it's like, really? We're supposed to do that? It's like, yes. Going back to you quoting Paul, Paul's like, hey, man, y'all got witch doctored. Like who bewitched you in convincing you to replace Jesus with the law? That's demonic. And it's so hard in our modern evangelical mind.

To think that there is some nefarious beings out there who really want to mess with the gospel. And I think what happened up here this entire last two days is...

a thousand percent spiritual warfare because you have the proclamation of the gospel. And this is, I was talking to Chad about this last night. Ephesians 3.12 tells us that when the wisdom of God is proclaimed through the church that the principalities and spirits in heavenly places are hearing it and being pushed back and so it's there is something that is powerful to realize that as Justin is

giving you all of these reasons that you can trust Jesus. And if you start hearing reasons not to trust him, you need to go, that's not from God. It's from some spirit, but it ain't God's spirit. And this is healthy because when you can identify the danger. and its source, it should cause you to repulse a little bit more other than entertaining the ideas, which is the whole point of this. I love how the timing of this happened because you're rightly dividing the word of truth.

And why do we need to know how to do that? Because we need to know when we're being lied to. If you don't know how to divide it, you don't know if you're being lied to. How many of you came to a law gospel conclusion? You're like, oh, wow, I have believed a lie for so long. All of us. So I think it's healthy moving forward. And I'm going to end here because this is a question that's kind of related to everything. So this will be a longer discussion.

Many of you have come up to me, I know to people here, how do I help people who can't see this? How do I encourage my pastor, my friend? Because we've all admitted.

that we didn't come from this perspective. So all of you men have been shepherds at one point or are shepherding. How is it you help someone that is averse to this? They feel like you're... promoting legalism, or you're promoting antinomianism, you're giving people a pre-pass, you're abusing God's love, how is it you can encourage, because you're all amped up. And what we don't need you to do is go home and blow up the internet or your homes, okay? Or your churches. Or your churches, yes.

Well, I think engagement, number one, just dealing with the issues. And I really appreciate what you said, Chad, a minute ago about this spiritual warfare.

We have to get the Frank Peretti idea of spiritual warfare out of our system. And by Frank Peretti, some of you might remember him, wrote a series of books, This Present Darkness. And we see spiritual evil in... you know in so many different ways and it's like somebody with you know have a face on and then behind it is this evil thing and they're trying to get you to do something weird no this spiritual warfare is much more subtle

than what people realize. The real drama- The impactful stuff for sure. Yeah, the real drama took place on Calvary. Yeah. And so now spiritual warfare is fought- As you said, he's using human voices. They don't know. They haven't sold their soul. It's not the mark that they have on their body. They don't know. They're speaking out of their own ignorance.

telling you what you need, but it's human voices that are being manipulated by spiritual powers to obscure what has been accomplished in human history. And what Jesus has done... is historically documented, and the Bible gives us the theological reason or substance behind that historical event. So either Jesus of Nazareth lived and died.

And either the record shows that he rose from the grave, and if his grave is empty, which they say those who were his peers say it was, then everything he says is true. anything contrary to that. Doesn't matter where it comes from or who says it. That's why Paul says, even if it's me or an angel, if they come with any other message.

other than the one that you have received, let them be damned, is basically what he says. You know, so I think, you know, the best that we can do is communicate the truth. of what has been accomplished in Christ from the scriptures and trust that the Holy Spirit would give ears to hear and a heart to embrace that truth.

Sorry, I just have to say that passage from Paul, I'm like, well, how do I know it's from an angel? It's like, how do I know that gospel is coming from an angel? It's just, Sean and I were talking about it last night. The Bible says some absolutely absurd things sometimes, like. Care to explain it yourself, Paul? I think a good way to inculcate this in your friends, your family, your congregation is like you teach anything.

First of all, it helps if you embody this in the way that you speak, in the way that you interact with people in a law gospel sort of way, because our actions do impact other people. So if we believe the gospel and we believe that sinners who come to us are forgiven and yet we treat them still according to their sins. then we ourselves are living a mixture of law and gospel and our very interactions with them. So embodying in our relationships a law gospel perspective does help.

And then I think like when you teach anything, you start with the simple. And the way you began was perfect because you have these short little sayings such as do or done. You know, the gospel demands all of this. The law demands all this. The gospel gives all this. Helping people to have these cornerstones upon which they can build is going to help. And then you can go to...

well-known text, take a parable like the parable of the Good Samaritan or something else, and just talk about simple law gospel perspectives. Like we did yesterday morning in the podcast. Yeah, just like we did. And then... trust the Spirit is going to do the work. Exactly. Yeah, he's ultimately the one who's opened all of our eyes to this. Just like he opened the eyes and the hearts of the disciples to understand the Scripture. So he continues to do this still today.

So do what you can, teach what you can, embody what you can, and then let the Spirit do His work. I agree with all that. I'm going to try to say things that are similar but different enough to make it worth the time. Yeah, I think simple things, I agree, build with the most simple truths you can and be...

And frankly, just don't be a jerk about it. I mean, like, just be kind about it. Be winsome about it. Be patient. And I mean, there are many verses that have been quoted today, you know, cursed is everyone.

Who does not do everything that's written in the book of the law? It's like, okay. And then we can connect dots for people. If you've broken this part of the law, you're guilty of breaking the whole thing. We can go hard. I mean, Paul goes hard in the paint in Galatians 5, but it's like, look, it's either all of Jesus or it's all of you.

no middle ground. I mean, the scripture's clear on these things. You just keep saying those little simple things over the course of time. I think a good tactic, this is for me personally. So this is not thus sayeth the Lord, this is my thought. So you do with them what you will. I find that one of the most strategic ways to kind of win people to this law and gospel thing is to say wonderful soaring things about Jesus and his utter sufficiency that no Christian can disagree with.

Like seriously, it's like you just, you talk about Christ all the time. And you say things for a while about how he really is, he's better than we even think. And he's done more than we can imagine. And he, you know, all the things, like some of the stuff we heard today. And then you can start. It sounds... absurdly simple, maybe because it is, you can start using the law as a hammer to show people you have not done what the law requires. But remember all those things that we said about Jesus?

you know, that's a way to do it. Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, so I speak, uh, from experience here. So I don't want you to experience what I experienced because it was that awful. Um, We can get so excited about this, we go on the war path as if those who oppose us are our enemy. They're not our enemy. They're our friends. They're the ones to whom God says, love them.

Right? We hate Satan, but we love everyone else. Everyone's your neighbor. And so what it was helpful for me is to find, as Justin was talking about, find areas of agreement, even if they're an unbeliever. I try and find something I can agree with. Most everybody thinks the world's a bad place. I'm like, I agree with you on that. Let's start there, right? But when it comes down to maybe friends and family Christians, find something that you can agree on. Typically, everybody agrees on...

on Christ and how wonderful he is and who he is as far as the gospel of grace. But this is the culmination of all of it. You do have to remember that God said it's the spoken word of the gospel. How will they believe unless they hear? Trust that your gospel conversations that are proceeding from love and affection and patience will actually transform their heart by means of the power of the Spirit. This is why he says you have to speak the truth in love.

when James says, hey, if you lack wisdom, which we all kind of do when you get into some of these conversations, he says, ask God for wisdom who will give it to you liberally without repute. He's not going to condemn you for it. And he later in James,

describes wisdom as meekness and gentleness and patience and open to reason. And so if you're struggling and finding that you're getting frustrated, it is good and healthy and say, Lord, please give me wisdom so that I might speak these things with patience and love. suffering by the way long suffering means to suffer for a long time yeah yeah exactly

It is better to be patient with someone and eventually see them come this way than to sever the relationship. So let the Lord determine how long that might be and trust in the proclamation of the gospel. All right. So in the interest of time. Sure. Can we thank Ken and Chad for being here with us? Yeah. Hey guys, real quick.

Some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions. So where do you go? How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources? We have started something called the Theocast community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect,

with other like-minded believers. All of our resources there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there, and you can share it and ask questions. You can go check it out. The link is in the description below.