[00:00:00] Mahea: The long awaited return of one of the most legendary names in neo soul... the reflective resurrection of a beloved rock god... and the redemption remix of an artist who rose like a phoenix from the ashes of musical virality. You're listening to Themes and Variation.
[00:00:30] Themes and Variation is a podcast about music and perspectives, brought to you by Soundfly. I'm your host, Mahea. Lee.
[00:00:39] It's been a while, but we are back... most of us anyway. If you've heard the show before, you'll notice the absence of the rich baritone timbre belonging to former host Carter Lee, who moved onto something quite literally greener earlier this year when he accepted a full-time job in the golf industry and left me the rather daunting task of attempting to fill his size eleven shoes with my size six feet.
[00:01:03] That said, it turns out the host's seat is pretty comfortable, and I'm absolutely thrilled about this new season of Themes and Variation.
[00:01:11] Just like before, each show will be centered around a unique theme that's open to the interpretations of that episode's panelists — musicians and music lovers who bring all sorts of knowledge, experience, and perspectives to the table.
[00:01:23] In this episode, you'll hear from the show's new home panel: Martin Fowler, Jeremy Young, and of course, yours truly.
[00:01:30] Before we get into that, I have a quick favor to ask: If you love what you hear or just wanna send a little encouragement to me and the rest of the team, please subscribe to the show and consider leaving a positive review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you go for podcasts. Your support and enthusiasm will help us keep this thing going.
[00:01:48] Alright, let's get into the episode: "Comeback Songs."
[00:01:53] Welcome back to Themes and Variation, Soundfly's podcast about music and perspectives. Joining me today are Martin Fowler and Jeremy Young, two former frequent guests who are going to be playing a more pivotal role in the show moving forward.
[00:02:08] How are you guys doing today?
[00:02:09] Martin: Fantastic.
[00:02:11] Jeremy: I'm great. How are you, Mahea?
[00:02:14] Mahea: I'm doing really well. And that's in part because we are talking about "Comeback Songs," which is pretty on the nose, what with this being our comeback episode and all. Your song selection process — what was the like for you guys this time? Tricky? Not so tricky?
[00:02:30] Martin: It was tricky because there are so many obvious choices.
[00:02:34] Mahea: Lay some of them on me. What were the obvious choices?
[00:02:38] Martin: You know, the very first thing I thought when you said "comeback" was "don't call it a comeback!"
[00:02:44] Track: [music]
[00:02:49] Martin: Which, if you Google "comeback songs" is like the top of basically every list.
[00:02:54] Mahea: But that's like the opposite of a comeback.
[00:02:57] Martin: There was that. There's an incredible bass line to a Luther Vandross song called "Come Back" by Marcus Miller, that is like one of my favorite slap bass lines of all time.
[00:03:09] Track: [music]
[00:03:18] Martin: There's a song that is recorded by Pete Seeger that I have on vinyl. You know, Pete Seeger lived in the town I live in, in the Hudson Valley. [He] was a big proponent of returning the Hudson River to its natural glory after General Electric came in and completely polluted the river in the forties through the seventies.
[00:03:37] Mahea: Keep it light, Marty.
[00:03:38] Martin: Turns out that that song isn't actually on the internet, so it's not really fair for me to bring that song in.
[00:03:44] Mahea: What's it called?
[00:03:44] Martin: I know, right? It's called "Love Our River Again."
[00:03:55] Track: [music]
[00:03:59] Mahea: I definitely just thought about "Baby Come Back." Also "Come Back Baby."
[00:04:06] Track: [music]
[00:04:08] Jeremy: For a second, I thought that we were on a completely different pod and I was gonna do "Baby Got Back..."
[00:04:20] Track: [music]
[00:04:20] Jeremy: ... Which could have gotten a little hot.
[00:04:22] Mahea: That would have gotten weird.
[00:04:24] Jeremy: ... A little too hot a little too fast.
[00:04:25] Mahea: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:04:26] Jeremy: So my mind went to like soundtracks. I kind of wanted to do Rocky, because "Eye of the Tiger" I think — I could be wrong, but "Eye of the Tiger" maybe debuted in Rocky.
[00:04:38] But I don't know if I would really consider that a comeback. And I also thought about Rudy.
[00:04:50] Track: [music]
[00:04:56] Jeremy: For a quick second, I went to like Snoop Lion.
[00:04:59] Track: [music]
[00:04:59] Jeremy: ... And to try to maybe talk about his like, "failed comeback" as like a Rastafarian. Yeah.
[00:05:13] Mahea: Is that a comeback or is it just an entirely different career?
[00:05:16] Jeremy: Right or just a misguided attempt to reach a new audience or something. I was like, "Eh, it might've been a marketing thing." I don't quite understand that. But then I found my pick and I'm pretty happy with it. So yeah, I was lost and now I'm found, and so I came back.
[00:05:31] Mahea: Excellent, Marty, we'll go ahead and start with your selection.
[00:05:39] Martin: Oh yeah.
[00:05:51] Track: [music]
[00:05:54] Mahea: So Marty, what were we listening to?
[00:05:57] Martin: This is "Really Love," the long, long awaited comeback of D'Angelo after a thirteen-year gap between records. Yeah, a lot of people were not sure that he was gonna come back. That's what came to mind when I thought about artist comeback stories was how happy I know I was and how happy so many musicians in particular, I know were to hear some new stuff from this singular genius of our era. And he really delivered.
[00:06:28] It was a record that was incredibly well timed in its actual release because it spoke so much to a lot of the social upheaval in America at the time. It was around the era of Ferguson, the era of Eric Garner. It spoke to a lot of the contemporary state of racial and class and other divisions — especially racial, but definitely intersectional divisions throughout life in the US.
[00:06:55] And this track in particular is more of a classic D'Angelo, romantic bedroom classic...
[00:07:02] Mahea: It's a sexy track. You can say that.
[00:07:03] Martin: It's a sexy track. Those are the two sides of this record. I feel like, you know, that's a lot of what people were expecting from him, from all of his earlier tracks. Certainly some cool, sexy vibes. But also some really interesting tracks on this record.
[00:07:17] This one in particular has some really incredible string arrangements by Brent Fisher, up top and throughout.
[00:07:35] Track: [music]
[00:07:38] Martin: This one won Best R&B Song at the 58th annual Grammy Awards. [It] was a chart hit, was a critical darling, remains one of his most popular songs, even though some of his earlier stuff remains the best known of his work. It's a really groovy track with a deep pocket and just really came to bring back and redefine what neo-soul was.
[00:08:02] He's kind of the king of neo-soul in some ways.
[00:08:04] There was an early version of this track leaked in 2007 by Questlove on Australia's Triple J Radio, which is their like big, you know, sort of cutting edge radio station, essentially.
[00:08:31] Track: [music]
[00:08:38] Martin: It wasn't done and certainly D'Angelo didn't think it was done, but like pretty similar to what we ended up hearing on the record. In this version, it's all demos and D'Angelo, super talented multi-instrumentalist, played all of those parts himself. In that version, it's not quite the same. You know, he went into the studio, he brought in Questlove to actually lay down the drums.
[00:08:57] He brought in Pino Palladino to replay that bass line, but on his, you know, 1961 P bass. But at the same time, the core of the idea was present and it just took a really long time for D'Angelo to actually feel good about letting it out into the world.
[00:09:16] So in 2001, he kind of started falling off... it's kind of the last time he toured in the early 2000s. He really had a tough time with being like a sex symbol in the public eye, and famously sort of had to recede from the public view for a long time. His record funding got pulled. He had to move where he was gonna release the record a couple of times and being sort of a known perfectionist as well... like he's in there like making his own keyboard, synth patches like programmers who would program for Stevie Wonder, or he's trying to work in the vein of Prince, of really being the singular talent behind every note that you hear. He's totally capable of it, but he also is deeply plagued by the perfectionism that accompanies that.
[00:10:03] Mahea: People sometimes forget that the songs that go on a first album, you may have been cultivating for your entire life up to that point, and then something does well and it's like, "Well, give us something next year." And you can't put the same kind of love and care into that necessarily. And I think that's really hard for a lot of artists who have more of like an "artiste" disposition.
[00:10:22] Jeremy: Auteur and stuff. I mean, in D'Angelo's case, it's so interesting that he's like that. We've known this about him for so many years, but the music just sounds so relaxed. This song in particular, I think shows his chops in a lot of ways and his taste, frankly, like his aesthetic taste. You know, this idea of like redefining neo soul that you were talking about, Marty, I mean, maybe he wears it as a badge of pride that he sort of was like the poster child for that — him and Erykah Badu and Questlove, The Roots, whatever... But it just feels like he's interested in redefining what it is and also saying like, well screw this like genre title, let me do my thing. Just the idea that he can be a perfectionist and also just lay down these grooves that sound so smooth and silky.
[00:11:07] If I do anything where I get that perfectionist bug, everything just sounds so grid-y and tight. Grid-y, like G R I D, uh, dash Y. Like, there's just no human feeling. If I get a perfectionist like itch to it.
[00:11:23] Mahea: Well, it's like a nuanced and an attention to detail thing, right? It would be really easy, when you have access to strings to just be like, well, strings are gonna be all over the place and they're gonna be thick and they're gonna be overwhelming. But they're just in there enough that you forget this is an entirely different family of instruments.
[00:11:47] Track: [music]
[00:11:48] Mahea: The drums, like they have a laid back feel, but it's like the Dilla thing. It's not sloppy. It's like perfectly off the grid.
[00:12:00] Martin: There's a little snippet on the internet of Questlove describing sort of his understanding of the Dilla laid back vibe, which is like taking the hi hats and just like pushing them back in time.
[00:12:11] That style of playing, especially from Questlove on these kinds of records in particular... he knows exactly where to place those things in relation to each other.
[00:12:19] Mahea: There's more breath in that too, you know? We spend so much time training ourselves to play perfectly on a grid, which can be pretty lifeless, and this kind of feel is putting that human quality back in, which becomes really hard if you've trained yourself to play right on the dot for such a long time.
[00:12:37] Martin: Totally. And that bass line too. I mean, the bass line, it's got this incredibly behind the beat kind of feel. But it also is so consistent with itself. It's just eighth notes basically, and it's in such a clear metronomic pocket with itself, but in relation to the beat incredibly behind. So you get this real propulsiveness, but you kind of feel like you can just sit back into it at the same time.
[00:13:13] Track: [music]
[00:13:15] Jeremy: It's not like a grandiose coming back story where it's like, "I'm gonna drop this record. I've been working on it forever." But like, just play the record. You know?
[00:13:24] Mahea: It speaks for itself.
[00:13:25] Jeremy: And I think there's a cinematic quality to this track in particular. The idea of like, that intro... you know, it doesn't really feel like you're in the same room as the rest of the song. It sort of feels like you're kind of walking around in Harlem a little bit, you know? Going into these different shops and storefronts or whatever. And then you sort of wander into the back room and there's this little like tight groove happening. There's a visual aspect to listening to this that, with regards to the theme, you know, this comeback theme, the message is sort of like, "I've taken a circuitous route to come back here, and now the record's gonna take a circuitous route to the groove."
[00:14:00] You're not just gonna hit play and then get into the Voodoo thing anymore.
[00:14:16] Track: [music]
[00:14:19] Martin: They spent so much time in the studio, apparently just like hanging out a lot of the time. Like not recording, but sitting on the couch listening to old records, just trying to figure out what the right pocket and vibe and spaces for laying these tracks down that are already basically done otherwise.
[00:14:41] Recording of the album was finished at the MSR, Sear Sound, Avatar, and Quad Recording Studios in New York City. That's in addition to Electric Lady. So he was all over Manhattan.
[00:14:54] Mahea: That's quite the budget.
[00:14:56] Martin: Yeah. He did a big world tour, which he called... I believe the tour was called The Second Coming. Which is, uh...
[00:15:04] Mahea: Oh, okay.
[00:15:05] Jeremy: Oh boy.
[00:15:06] Martin: You know, that's the kind of chutzpah and bravado that you gotta be someone... an artist like D'Angelo to interject. But the album is called Black Messiah, so... You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of commentary there and he felt like it was the right time to do it, so yeah.
[00:15:22] That happened and then a lot of TV appearances and, you know, now we're about halfway to the next record, I would say. Halfway.
[00:15:41] Track: [music]
[00:15:57] Jeremy: We're listening to David Bowie's incredible "Where Are We Now" which came out on his 2013 record The Next Day.
[00:16:08] Mahea: Is it that long ago? I guess so.
[00:16:11] Jeremy: Well, it was 10 years ago now, but Bowie's also been dead since 2016. David Bowie released this record in 2013. And it was 10 years ago now, but it had been 10 years since his last release.
[00:16:27] Technically it was nine years. His last release was sort of like a live record, so that doesn't really count. The record was called The Reality Tour, and it was just a live concert version of his record Reality, which came out in 2003.
[00:16:40] I kind of like that record, but I could see how it didn't do well at the time. Sort of listening back with 2020 hindsight ear vision, I kind of enjoy this album Reality in the overall narrative of all of Bowie's records. But you know, let's like call a spade a spade. He had a pretty bad '90s and 2000's. The nineties were okay. But the thing is like, the reason this is a comeback record is that he pretty much retired.
[00:17:07] I don't know why, but I do know that the last couple of albums, including this album, Reality were pretty poorly received. I mean, since 1967, Bowie never let three or four years go by without a release. That was close to 40 years' worth of musical work, whether it was releasing records, recording, touring, the Labyrinth, which was in what, '86? '87? '89? Something like that.
[00:17:33] So like until 2004 he was working his ass off. And I think he started to kinda lose the recognition for all of that really hard work. And maybe part of it was just a misguided attempt to cultivate a new personality in the late '90s and early 2000s that was sort of like this digital pop sound. Like really kind of clean, glossy, you know, pop. Certainly like stadium style music.
[00:18:00] Mahea: Which is kind of interesting, right? 'cause I feel like early 2000s, that is the sound that made money for so many artists. Like that's peak boy band era.
[00:18:09] Jeremy: Totally. And I think in a weird way... like Bowie didn't try to be a boy band necessarily. I think he was trying to sort of make a comment on it. That's always been his thing. Like, you know, find this persona, this character or caricature that he can play that says as much about himself as it does about the culture that we live in at any given time... or, I mean, it's just completely abstract and it's like, you know, how can we make this alien boy who fell to earth or like a goblin king, really cut to the heart of the human experience?
[00:18:46] Track: [music]
[00:18:54] Mahea: It's interesting though, 'cause you don't forget that it's him. Like I'm much younger than both of you by a couple years... Was it ever really Ziggy Stardust or was it David Bowie as Ziggy Stardust?
[00:19:06] Jeremy: Well, so that's why I love this particular song and this particular album in my reading of Bowie's career, and I'm like a huge Bowie fan. I always have been. I think that some characters that he's played, some personalities that he's kind of occupied for the sake of his art, have been more successful than others, or they've reached deeper into his audience's hearts more than others. However, in all instances, I think that what he's shooting for is to create like an over the top kind of character or personality, but that it always references something about himself.
[00:19:44] And I think what makes this album and why I think it's like one of the most incredible comebacks of all time is that in this particular instance, what I feel when I'm listening to this music and what I think he's shooting for is that he's kind of going back in time and revisiting these eras of his past personas.
[00:20:02] And in this case, It's really the "Berlin Trilogy." I mean, it's really like he's going back. I mean, it's in the lyrics, but it's in the sound. He's working with Tony Visconti again, who's a producer who worked on the entire Berlin Trilogy. He's going back to this era of his own life, but with a new perspective on it.
[00:20:20] It's almost like he's walking through the streets of Berlin and to reach out to his younger self and ask the question "Where are we now? Where do we stand?"
[00:20:33] Track: [music]
[00:20:41] Mahea: So for listeners and those of us who again, are much younger than you by a couple years, which albums are part of the Berlin Trilogy?
[00:20:48] Jeremy: It's Low, Heroes, which I can talk about in a moment 'cause it references... the cover art to this record references the Heroes cover art and Lodger. And this, this record called Lodger.
[00:20:58] It was like 1976, 1977. I think he did three records in two years, but they all kind of occupied the same messaging. Similar kind of sound. And of course he was living in Berlin at the time, and that was a major part of his inspiration and his ethos. But yeah. So the cover art for The Next Day is basically the Heroes cover, but the word "heroes" is crossed out and there's a giant like white box over Bowie's face, and it just says "The Next Day." I mean, it's both artful and in a weird way, lazy. Well, I'm not saying that like in a pejorative way. I think he's trying to sort of bait journalists, you know, to like putting it down or something.
[00:21:37] I think he's just trying to be like polemical and like, okay, take this, but I don't know. I mean, who knows what was going on in his head?
[00:21:44] Another part of the timeline here is that this was 2013. Like I said, it had been 10 years since he released a record proper, nine years since the live concert album came out. A lot of people assumed that he had retired. I think he retreated from the public life for a bit. He made this album kind of in secret. Maybe a part of it was he didn't want people to know he was making a record so that they wouldn't prejudge the new material based on past call them "failures" or you know, misguided releases or whatever.
[00:22:15] But as soon as this record came out, very shortly after, he learned that he had liver cancer, and so he started working on the next album, which is called Blackstar, with the knowledge that it was basically close to the end.
[00:22:29] And then the story with Blackstar... I won't go so deep into it, but it came out the day that he died and that I think was part of his sort of agreement with everybody involved.
[00:22:38] And that record was also made in secret throughout 2014, 2015. So those two albums are sort of forever linked in that they're the last two albums. I think they kind of represent this general coming back story — like David Bowie reemerging into the public after so many years, but also being so close to the end.
[00:22:57] And it's just really interesting to me to listen to these songs 'cause I think the songs on The Next Day and certainly, "Where Are We Now," track... there's an air of like, you know, he's taking stock, he's reflecting. He's asking the question: Where are we now? Where have we come from? To me, that's like the ultimate comeback messaging.
[00:23:16] Track: [music]
[00:23:22] Jeremy: It's not simple, simple, but it does reference like an earlier time. I think Bowie went into a period of like high digital production in the late nineties and early two thousands and tried to be sort of in the zeitgeist of what music production was sounding like. And this goes back to that kind of like, let's just roll the tapes type of production and sound.
[00:23:41] And I think Tony Visconti is a major part of that. To me, when I listen to this song, I imagine like he's walking through the streets of Berlin as like a ghost and he's sort of watching himself, I don't know, act out or do the things that he was doing back in the seventies and eighties and making mistakes and whatever, and just sort of like trying to reach out to his former self. I think it's really dramatic and it's really emotional.
[00:24:04] There's something too, like with the D'Angelo conversation... both artists knew that they were making a comeback. They knew that this was going to be something special, and I think they eschewed the pressure of doing something big and over the top and instead went with something that felt more comfortable and more familiar. You know? It's like receding into that groove or that kind of old guitar and synth kinda rock sound.
[00:24:32] Martin: By stepping back into their own understanding of their own essences, respectively, they both avoided overt grandiosity in their pursuit and in the process were truer to themselves and ended up making records that were extremely grand because they were such a pure expressions of themselves as they understood
[00:24:58] Track: [music]
[00:25:02] Mahea: Can we just talk about the presence of like a true lead guitar on this track? Because that is something that I think hasn't fully made a comeback, but is so nice. It's almost that Pink Floyd style sound, you know, where like, it fills a role that is... I don't even know what plays that role in today's music.
[00:25:28] I'm trying to think about it. I guess a synth line might do that, or some kind of weird background vocal situation? But tasteful lead guitar that isn't shreddy — why has that not made a comeback?
[00:25:41] Jeremy: I blame Greta Van Fleet.
[00:25:43] Mahea: For so many things.
[00:25:45] Martin: For so many things?
[00:25:46] Mahea: I'm just kidding. I have no issues with Great Van Fleet.
[00:25:48] Jeremy: This is getting controversial. I feel like last year or a couple years ago, there was an analysis of streaming culture and the lack of solos. The more people listen to things on playlists, the less time in general people give to decide whether they like a song. And so if you're not gonna really wait till two and a half minutes in when the solo comes or whatever, then why even have it to begin with?
[00:26:12] You know, just like start strong and keep it there or something to keep people's attention.
[00:26:16] Martin: I don't know. There's also been... not a return of the guitar solo, but I mean, saxophones have had a pretty nice little comeback in the last decade, decade and a half. "Midnight City" by M83 just climaxes in like an ecstatic sax solo that could easily be a guitar solo.
[00:26:34] Jeremy: Plus like, you know, Kendrick working with George Clinton and Terrace Martin. The influence of jazz on pop or sort of R&B-influenced pop and stuff and electronic music is interesting, but it's definitely taken it away from that kind of hard rock thing. But to be honest, I'm not mad about it. Like, I don't know how many times I've listened to like a pentatonic guitar solo where I'm like, "okay, cool."
[00:26:58] Mahea: Well done. You did a good job. You can do a thing. Yeah, I don't know. I think brass never fully went away.
[00:27:04] Martin: Brass will never die. Like strings.
[00:27:06] Jeremy: Are we talking about instruments making a comeback in a comeback episode.
[00:27:11] Mahea: Whoa. Weird. Uh, is there anything else you wanna talk about on this fantastic song selection, Jeremy?
[00:27:18] Jeremy: I just don't want it to get slid under the carpet or whatever that expression is... I don't want it to get lost in the conversation how... like you need to look at this album cover if you have never seen it. Because it's like Bowie is literally ripping himself off and laughing to all of us about it and it's just perfect. And in terms of a comeback, I mean, what better way to come back than to just be like, "Oh,, I did a cool thing in 1976 and now that it's 2013, I'm just gonna like slap that right back on the cover and just change a couple little tiny things." Like, it's just, it's just rad.
[00:28:13] Track: [music]
[00:28:14] Mahea: We are listening to the 2021 "Friday" remix by Rebecca Black, featuring 3OH!3, Big Freedia, and Dorian Electra.
[00:28:24] I wanna start by just saying this is our comeback show, not just our "Comeback" episode. In the past, I have been known in this small little podcast community circle here for picking a lot of classical pieces. My highbrow is not gone. I just wanted to establish that this choice says nothing about what comes next, and I stand behind it in spite of that.
[00:28:45] How irritated are the two of you at me for choosing this song right now?
[00:28:49] Jeremy: Not irritated, very intrigued.
[00:28:53] Martin: Yeah, I love it.
[00:28:54] Mahea: Had you heard it before? The remix, I mean. Obviously you've heard the original.
[00:28:57] Jeremy: I have not heard this, but I was like... delighted.
[00:29:01] Mahea: I mean, it's an interesting group of features to bring together on one track like this and I'm so glad that it happened. But yeah, Big Freedia, known for like New Orleans bounce music. 3OH3! has a very specific place in my mind and it's not a Rebecca Black collaboration.
[00:29:18] Did you guys watch the music video?
[00:29:19] Jeremy: Yes.
[00:29:21] Mahea: In the video, there's that reference to A Trip to the Moon, the sci-fi film from 1902.
[00:29:26] Jeremy: Oh, Le voyage dans la lune.
[00:29:27] Mahea: Yeah. Say that again.
[00:29:29] Jeremy: Le voyage dans la lune. So it's like voyage in the moon, even though the English translation is "a trip to the moon."
[00:29:37] Mahea: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.
[00:29:39] Jeremy: So that's 1902, Georges Méliès.
[00:29:43] Mahea: I told you I wasn't done being kind of highbrow on the show.
[00:29:46] Jeremy: Is that the comeback? Is it a comeback of like early 20th century photographic experiments?
[00:29:53] Mahea: And who better than Rebecca Black to make that happen? But yeah, there's a reference to that film in the 3OH!3 feature. We have a face in the moon and a rocket lands in its eye.
[00:30:04] Jeremy: I don't know why, but I was expecting there to be some sound design around that. Because he made a face, I just wanted there to be like an "ouch!" or something.
[00:30:12] Mahea: But in a weird way, I like that there wasn't. Like, the music almost takes itself seriously throughout, in a way that the video doesn't. But I'm gonna play that moment, just the audio. Here it is.
[00:30:22] Track: [music]
[00:30:37] Mahea: We transition to another feature... here's the Big Freedia (feature)...
[00:30:56] Track: [music]
[00:30:58] Mahea: And actually, the Dorian Electra one is beautiful. After like the silly autotune vocals, we get this...
[00:31:06] Track: [music]
[00:31:20] Mahea: We should get into the original song. Obviously you guys have heard it before. How familiar are you with the lore and the details around the story of "Friday?"
[00:31:29] Marty's nodding. Jeremy's shaking his head. Shrugging maybe.
[00:31:32] Martin: Yeah, I know how it happened.
[00:31:34] Mahea: So February 10th, 2011, Rebecca Black was 13 years old and quickly became like the most cyber bullied individual... I'd say probably of all time.
[00:31:47] She's done interesting things to overcome that, whereas I feel like I would've just faded into obscurity and not bothered with the music industry ever again, personally.
[00:31:57] The key thing to know — and I think this is something that a lot of people don't know, is that she did not write this song. A production company gave her a song, recorded her vocals, mixed the track... the first time she heard the track was the day of the music video. She didn't see the finished music video until it was released on the internet. So in terms of creative control, she had basically none.
[00:32:16] This was not the first song that that group, I think it's just two guys, sent her. The other one was called "Super Woman." I haven't been able to find it and listen to it, but she said that it was about a more grownup relationship and at 13, she hadn't had one yet.
[00:32:30] But I kind of wonder if this whole thing would've happened to her ...and my guess is no. I think it really was contingent on this overly catchy, nonsensical, quite frankly, poorly written song.
[00:32:41] Track: [music]
[00:32:56] Mahea: But yeah, Daniel Tosh featured it on Tosh.0. She looked it up and saw that the plays were just like growing at a massive rate. And she started getting some pretty hateful comments fairly immediately.
[00:33:07] The people who produced it asked her if she wanted them to take it down, she gave it some thought, and at 13 was mature enough to say, no, this is what's happening. I'm gonna face it instead of backing down.
[00:33:20] Jeremy: Wow.
[00:33:20] Mahea: ... Which didn't immediately work out for her to be honest, but has, since.
[00:33:25] Jeremy: It's such a bad example of the internet and music. It's like two dudes that write a song that just get some girl on it and then make a video. You know?
[00:33:37] Mahea: Well she paid for it too. I think her mom paid $4,000 and it was kinda like, you know, when you're a kid and your mom would take you for like mall photos or like those karaoke videos. The sense that I got from watching the interviews is it was like a glorified version of that. So she paid for this traumatic thing to happen to her that eventually led to a decent career.
[00:33:56] But, sorry, go ahead, Jeremy.
[00:33:57] Jeremy: No, yeah. Well, just that thing with the music video... you said that there was like a mix and an edit done to the track. She hadn't even heard it and then she just shows up and it's like done or whatever. I mean, you know... Yeah, the internet connects us, we can collaborate with whoever, but like, you are, in a weird way, subject to like your voice, your content, your creativity, being just completely warped by someone else and there's really nothing you can do about it.
[00:34:22] On the back end of it, when something really brilliant does end up happening, then you become susceptible to, you know, the dregs of internet society — comment society, where everybody just wants to like pile on and, I don't know, bring somebody down or something...
[00:34:37] Mahea: Yeah! Make fun of child?!
[00:34:38] Jeremy: It's just crazy. And yet, there's sort of a positve ending to the story..?
[00:34:43] Mahea: So she did give it a positive ending, and we'll get to that. And she's made it clear that some positive things came out of the experience even at the time. I don't know if you guys remember, but she made a cameo in Katy Perry's video for her song "Last Friday Night."
[00:34:57] But when you were talking a minute ago, Jeremy, about like giving up control over something and it just like kind of happens... it's interesting because... well, A. The use of auto-tune on the original track is cringey beyond belief, and I'm not sure it was entirely necessary now that I've heard what her voice sounds like without it.
[00:35:20] Track: [music]
[00:35:27] Mahea: I mean, admittedly, I'm sure she's had more training and that kind of thing. She started a YouTube channel when she was 16. She didn't want managers and people like that involved. She just wanted to share something genuine and real. People, especially people around her age, were super drawn to that authenticity.
[00:35:44] It's interesting that the musical trauma of losing creative control in that sense and having this thing happen informed the decisions she made around her career.
[00:35:56] Jeremy: How long did it take for the remix to then come?
[00:36:01] Mahea: So the remix came out on the 10th anniversary of the original — I think two days before or something like that. She posted on social media [to] hint that it was coming.
[00:36:10] Jeremy: That's awesome.
[00:36:10] Mahea: And she did perform the song in the time between that. She did release tracks. But I do think that the remix coming out was kind of this moment that put her back on everybody's radar in a way where she was really taking control of the situation.
[00:36:24] So Daniel Tosh, to save face I'm guessing, had her back on his show. And she performed the song in studio.
[00:36:38] Track: [music]
[00:36:51] Mahea: She's really kind of owned this narrative for a long time. That was a couple years ago. And then the decision to do this remix, which again, she didn't write the song... And it's weird 'cause the remix like simultaneously just owns what it is, but almost makes fun of it. That auto-tune sound... you don't hear her real voice. You hear this like glitchy, hyper tuned version of it throughout. It sounds like it's pitched up and it's faster.
[00:37:22] Track: [music]
[00:37:26] Jeremy: The chiptune aspect of this song kind of stood out to me. I mean, you can say what you want about chiptune and stuff, but you don't often hear it, necessarily, in remixes. I mean like... something doesn't become a chiptune song. It either elevates from it or it just always is that.
[00:37:41] Mahea: I wonder which of the collaborators is responsible for that.
[00:37:45] Martin: Well, I feel like one thing Rebecca Black is incredibly attuned to is a very like Gen Z approach to a hyper pop persona, which incorporates lots of musical aesthetics — especially, currently from like the late '90s and early, early 2000s.
[00:38:02] ... Same as fashion is now, you know, hearkening back to the early 2000s — like giant pants trends and whatnot.
[00:38:09] You know, there's jungle drum and bass drums throughout.
[00:38:12] Track: [music]
[00:38:19] Martin: The squirrely aspect of the vocal sampling, or at least, vocal processing, if not vocal sampling in addition to the heavy autotune, which is very, very contemporary in hyper pop. You know? That's actually a very contemporary sound.
[00:38:32] She's really, really tapped into all of that and has been for a while, which makes the way that she's approaching this particular track and saying like, "Hey, yeah, when this happened, like I really didn't know anything. I was 13 and other people were sort of using me and my likeness. Now I fucking know what I'm doing and I'm here and I'm here to actually do the thing."
[00:38:52] It makes a lot of sense that she's using all of these contemporary styles and references, you know?
[00:38:58] Mahea: No, a hundred percent. And even the length of the features feels so aware of how people consume media now. They just come and go and you could almost picture the awards show or whatever performance, where these people show up and you cheer and then they're gone.
[00:39:16] The other thing that I do like about this remix is that you get a little more complexity in the form. With the addition of those features, you get a little more going on with the harmony. The original is just that pop progression, the I | VI– | IV | V sound that most music in Western pop is made up of. It just like sits in that same zone forever. So when we get these features, we get a little deviation from that. I might be taking it too seriously here, but, uh, yeah, it elevates the song for me.
[00:39:46] Jeremy: You know what you just did, Mahea, with regards to the comeback theme is you kind of flip the script.
[00:39:53] Mahea: How so?
[00:39:54] Jeremy: I think with the first two song choices, there was this idea around kind of getting to more of like an essence of the artistic integrity that has always been there... and like maybe the artist has gone astray or deviated from it and then kind of returned and found the love for the original sound or something.
[00:40:11] And in this case it's like, "I was never really gone, but let's revisit this early statement and do it in a new way that maybe nobody has ever anticipated before" or something.
[00:40:25] Mahea: It's almost like she's putting a button on the situation.
[00:40:26] Track: [music]
[00:40:32] Mahea: We're a little rusty, but I think we're back. What do you think?
[00:40:34] Jeremy: Sweaty palms.
[00:40:36] Martin: I'm just glad it wasn't 10 years before we came back.
[00:40:39] Mahea: I know. It's felt like it though.
[00:40:40] Track: [music]
[00:40:44] Mahea: So there you have it, folks. The first episode of this new season.
[00:40:48] If you've enjoyed it and wanna hear more, don't forget to subscribe via your favorite podcast platform. We'll be back again in two weeks. In the meantime, I recommend checking out some of our earlier episodes.
[00:41:00] For upcoming theme announcements and other podcast news, follow @ThemesVariation on Twitter. We're new to that platform, but we plan to use it more actively moving forward.
[00:41:10] Thanks so much for listening, and I'll meet you back here on Wednesday, September 13th with our next episode.