[00:00:00] Mahea: If you're like me, listening to Themes and Variation makes you want to work on some music of your own. I've got some good news on that front. The Soundfly team's been hard at work creating a massive collection of resources to satiate your curiosity and help you up your skills in areas like composition, production, and improvisation.
[00:00:19] Using the discount code PODCAST, you can get access to the full range of premium courses available at soundfly. com. And an invitation to our online community for less than $10 a month.
[00:00:31] Also, be sure to stop by Soundfly's YouTube channel, where we're constantly adding new videos addressing questions like, "what is a pedal tone?" and, "do dogs understand music?" Plus, some of those videos directly relate to things we've discussed on this show. So if you like what you hear here, you should definitely check out what we have to offer there.
[00:00:50] Soundfly. Creative content for people who make music.
[00:00:55] Carter: A heavy track from a band on the verge of breaking up. A heart wrenching performance that includes the most beautiful use of a swear word I've ever heard. And a sweet song of catharsis from one of history's most beloved albums. You're listening to Themes and Variation.
[00:01:26] Themes and Variation is a podcast about music and perspectives brought to you by the online music school, Soundfly. I'm your host, Carter Lee.
[00:01:38] All right, folks, another Themes and Variation coming at you. We got a fun episode, albeit maybe a little bit emotional as we're talking about "Breakup Songs."
[00:01:48] We're digging into a few songs that will maybe help you get over that formerly special someone and even some tracks that take a look at what it's like to be in a band that is absolutely at its wits end and barely staying together and what can be created in that environment.
[00:02:03] And joining me for this deep dive into some songs about splitting up is of course my frequent co host, Mahea Lee, and producer, educator, and engineer, Marcela Rada.
[00:02:13] Marcela has a remarkable resume. She holds a master's degree from Berklee College of Music in music production, technology, and innovation. And in 2020, she completed a post master's fellowship to research spatial audio systems and develop a university level course on immersive audio experiences. And she's actually now an instructor at the university level in the digital audio arts program at the University of Lethbridge.
[00:02:39] And of course we need to mention that Marcela is one of our incredible Soundfly Mentors. If you have any goals related to mixing, production, engineering, spatial audio, like the most advanced mix stuff you can think of, then you might want to work with Marcela. If you have any other goals related, maybe harmony, songwriting, beat making, and other production related things, head to soundfly.com to check out our other mentors' profiles and sign up to work with one of them today.
[00:03:06] And just to give you a heads up, there is some strong language in this episode, particularly in the second song that we break down. So yeah, I just wanted to give you that little heads up in case maybe you got kids around or anything like that.
[00:03:18] But we do get into all kinds of things on this episode, like the importance of emotion in creative mixing, breakup songs don't need to be entirely sad, and all kinds of rumors surrounding Fleetwood Mac's biggest album. So without further ado, let's get into the episode, "Breakup Songs."
[00:03:39] All right, folks, another Themes and Variation for you. Joining me, of course, today is Mahea Lee. Mahea, how are you doing?
[00:03:46] Mahea: I'm doing well, but I challenge you, Carter, between now and the next recording, I want you to think of a different question to ask me.
[00:03:52] Carter: I think it's great. It's part of the, uh, the folksy appeal of the show that I ask you the exact same thing every single time. I've stopped asking you about the weather, random things, you know, random small talk and, uh, you know...
[00:04:04] Mahea: Sure, because we live together and that would be weird. Um, how are you doing?
[00:04:07] Carter: I'm great. I'm great because we have a perfect guest for a very fun theme, the incredible engineer and happens Soundfly Mentor, Marcela Rada. Marcela, how you doing?
[00:04:18] Marcela: Hi, I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. This is going to be really fun.
[00:04:22] Carter: Yeah. And thank you so much for picking the theme. I love when our guests, you know... I'll send a list of things like, "do these sound fun?" And you picked "Breakup Songs."
[00:04:32] Is there any reason why you want us to get all sad together now on, on this podcast?
[00:04:37] Mahea: Is it sad or is it like angry?
[00:04:39] Carter: It's a little bit of everything. Yeah.
[00:04:41] Marcela: I will say my song is... pretty angry.
[00:04:44] Mahea: Yeah.
[00:04:45] Carter: Yeah. A hundred percent.
[00:04:45] Marcela: Um, and breakup songs have been a theme lately in my life, although I don't really feel, um, exactly like... what the song is saying.
[00:04:55] But breakup songs are great. They're so emotional and I feel like a lot of artists just write their best work when they're hurting, you know? So...
[00:05:07] Carter: And maybe it'll be catharsis for, you know, maybe ourselves a little bit, maybe people listening to this episode.
[00:05:13] Are there any songs, you know, knowing what you guys picked for this episode or any songs that you thought about and then just kind of went in a different direction?
[00:05:22] Marcela: Definitely. Oh my gosh. I had a whole list.
[00:05:25] Carter: Give us some of your favorite. Yeah. What were the ones that didn't quite make the cut for this episode?
[00:05:29] Marcela: Um, definitely "My Future" by Billie Eilish and, um, also "White Flag" by Dido.
[00:05:39] Carter: Okay, yeah, yeah. Mahea, are there any songs that you thought about for "Breakup Songs" that you just didn't, uh, go with? I know before we recorded you thought you picked the wrong song.
[00:05:47] Mahea: Yeah, I did start saying that, didn't I? But I don't regret it. I, I got to this choice really quickly. Like, it was just like pure gut instinct, which is not my way on the show. Um, I usually overthink it because that's the part of this that is fun for me.
[00:06:01] But right before the show I was googling breakup songs just to be like, Carter's gonna ask me that question, and there's about a thousand songs I should have picked and didn't pick that are more, like, more perfect for a breakup situation.
[00:06:14] Like... and there's also all the songs that you don't really think of as being about breakups. I've never really thought about "Skinny Love" as being a breakup song, but like it is, you know? Um, it's just different stages of the actual breakup sometimes.
[00:06:26] Carter: Hmm.
[00:06:27] Mahea: But I also, yeah, I, I thought of literally every other song from the album that the song I picked is on and, and went with this 'cause it's what my gut said to do.
[00:06:35] Carter, what else did you..? Because you went like, yeah, you went an unexpected direction.
[00:06:38] Carter: Well, I went, I, I went, actually, I, I pulled a Mahea on this one and I got, I was like, you know what? I can, I can do something...
[00:06:44] Mahea: Oh there's a second layer?
[00:06:45] Carter: There's, there's a second layer. And what I was thinking was like, like songs that led to bands breaking up or something like that. Like, that's what I want to get into.
[00:06:53] And so I was thinking maybe the White Stripes. I don't know what song that, you know, maybe, you know, Meg and Jack, like kind of, kind of had to break up or anything. So I, I didn't go with that.
[00:07:03] But the track I did pick does have a little bit of that to it. So why don't we dive into this first selection for today's episode, "Breakup Songs."
[00:07:15] track: [music]
[00:07:41] Carter: Alright, folks, we're listening to "Hole in the Earth" from Deftones. This was a little bit of a different selection. I think maybe by the end of talking about it, it will make sense.
[00:07:57] So one thing that I liked about it though, was that it's not pure melancholy. Like there, there is sadness in this song and we'll get into that for sure, and, and harmonically it certainly gets there, but the verse is like kind of, you know, light and happy.
[00:08:11] Um, that, that six-eight bounce kind of contributes. Like, I don't know that, I mean, you can't have certainly a sad, uh, song in six-eight and three and things like that, but like, there's something about this bounce that just kind of feels okay. Yeah.
[00:08:25] Mahea: I find six, eight to be like so perfect for angst. And I don't know if it's like the like, very long Fiona Apple phase I started in high school and I'm still in, but like that sort of waltzy vibe feels melancholy to me.
[00:08:40] Carter: Different strokes for us, I think for sure. It made me kind of feel... it's not uplifting, but you know, like, it's not super dark and heavy, I guess, to me personally.
[00:08:50] I think too, like the harmonic ambiguity, I guess, to the opening riff... you're just playing power chords. There's not really any third. It's not like, "here's your minor chord, so now you have to feel sad, everybody," like immediately, right?
[00:09:02] The first melody is very light, you know, um, kind of sounding. There's like an open, kind of airy vibe to it.
[00:09:09] And again, you know, harmonically, we're sitting in the major chord section of a minor tonality, and we get that in the chorus, but you get your flat six and your flat three, uh, I believe in the key of F sharp minor, just major chords throughout the verse.
[00:09:29] track: [music]
[00:09:35] Carter: Things I love about the track: my favorite thing is, is, uh, the "hole in the earth" shift from the verse to the chorus. The way the same line, that "hole in the earth" gets used at the end of the verse and then gets sung in the exact same melody and is in a new harmonic context in the chorus. It's very, very dope.
[00:09:54] I'm going to play that, uh, for you right now.
[00:10:16] track: [music]
[00:10:16] Carter: I just love that — the release of the hook, using the same line. That's just one part of this track that I found really kind of interesting and unique. Hallmark of Deftones: unique vocal production, you get the very distant kind of distorted vocal in spots. Uh, it's super prevalent in their stuff. You get little bursts of it in the, in the second chorus to the bridge.
[00:10:52] track: [music]
[00:11:01] Carter: Of course, the bass playing is, is going to always kind of hook me in, but it's incredibly melodic. Tonally, uh, Chi Cheng, the, the, the bass player who I, I've got like a, it's not really so much a story as like just a vivid memory of him... just an amazing bass player. I think one of those, those players that, super incredible tone, has a very unique tone, somebody that's worked really hard at developing their tone and finding all kinds of different ways to, to enhance the, their, their approach to the instrument.
[00:11:33] Um, but really, really interesting, the, the melody work on the outro and stuff, like the bass kind of starts to wander a little bit.
[00:11:43] track: [music]
[00:11:56] Carter: He instantly became one of my favorite bass players in... I looked this up. So it's a 2003 Bass Player Magazine article. And I had this magazine. I remember it vividly. There's an image of him sitting in his backyard in, in Los Angeles, I think at the time, might have been Sacramento. I know they, they, they kind of had, uh, roots in both places.
[00:12:17] Mahea: Yeah, that's not relevant. Just kidding.
[00:12:18] Carter: Yeah... none of it... I just want to make sure... I don't want Deftones fans coming at me like, "no man, his place is in Sacramento."
[00:12:23] Mahea: San Francisco and L. A. both don't have much to be proud of, so.
[00:12:26] Carter: But he had his bass resting on his lap, and he had a giant cigar in his mouth, and his ashtray was on his bass, and it was just like this, this vivid, vivid picture. I was like, "this guy looks like the coolest dude, like, ever."
[00:12:39] Um, in that same, uh, article, I did not remember this quote, but his approach... and this kind of gets at why I picked this song, because there's a little bit of, I mean, a lot of infighting in this group at this time too. But he said in the August, 2003 edition of Bass Guitar Magazine... so it's "Bass Guitar," not "Bass Player." To me, they're the same thing.
[00:12:57] Uh, he told writer Joel McIver, "I get a lot of grief from Steven," uh, one of his bandmates anyway. He says, "'why don't you...'" I love this. "'Why don't you just play along with the guitar riff?' And I'm like, 'why don't you just fucking piss off?' Uh, he's like, 'can't you just play along? Remember on our song 'Change in the House of Flies?' him and Terry Dade said, 'Oh no, you're not going to play that goofy dub reggae bass line, are you?' And I was like, 'yeah, that's exactly what I'm going to play.' And then it became a really big song for us. Uh, so I was like, 'okay, just let me write the fucking way I write.'"
[00:13:28] Mahea: That's all really, really petty.
[00:13:32] Carter: It is. But I can... like, from the bass player's perspective, like, bro, like, that's rough. If you're like, why don't you just double the, I get it, I get it in this style of music to a degree, but I also think that, that Chi's approach... there's a legacy of his playing out there and, and, uh, the legacy of, of his work with Deftones of course isn't the same. The band's not the same if he's not able to be himself and, and play, um, the way that he sees fit. But I, I get it from, from both sides.
[00:13:59] Mahea: The quotes that you said, specifically talking to each other in that way and like having that attitude feels like, oh, that's so toxic. I mean, my policy is always: unless I play the instrument — even if I do play the instrument, even if I'm talking to a pianist, I'm not going to know more about how someone's instrument should be played than they do.
[00:14:17] You know? Like I might have a vision in my head, but if you, like... if you're so locked into what you want, just learn to play the instrument at that point. Otherwise it doesn't matter who's holding it, if that makes any sense.
[00:14:28] Is that like, like specifically a bigger issue with guitarists and bass players though? Because it kind of seems like it would be, where they sort of kind of think they understand each other's instruments.
[00:14:37] Carter: Yeah, I could see that. I honestly, I think I've been pretty lucky to not have dealt with that much at all. I think the only time that I did... it happens when it's like your first band, and you're in a garage band and stuff.
[00:14:48] So like, I don't know the history of Deftones, but like, I think it started like late '80s, early '90s even, so it's very possible this is early, early group, early band, and those same kind of idiosyncrasies amongst everybody just stayed with the group forever, which I think, you know... let's get right into it.
[00:15:04] This record, Saturday Night Wrist, awesome album title.
[00:15:08] Mahea: What does that mean?
[00:15:09] Carter: So, there's actually a meaning behind it. There's a thing known as "Saturday Night Palsy," also known as "Saturday Night Wrist," when you fall asleep on your wrist, or like, sometimes it happens with your arm. Behind your chair and you pinch a nerve, wake up the next day and you like have pretty severe nerve damage. "Saturday Night Wrist," there you go, learned something.
[00:15:31] But this, this record was, was made in the midst of the band like, like almost breaking up, lots of infighting. The, they were pushed by their label, uh, in 2004, their label Maverick, because their, their self titled record, most recent record, did not sell very well. They were like, "you guys got to get back in the studio and get right after it."
[00:15:49] Chris Moreno, the lead singer, was dealing with addiction, dealing with a divorce. So he's having his own breakup, um, which is another reason why this song fits. But like the entire band fighting, there's hiatus. The band goes on hiatus in the middle of recording this record.
[00:16:04] Moreno left the recording sessions of Saturday Night Wrist to work on his side project, Team Sleep. Like it just seemed like "I'm done with Deftones. We're all done with each other." And you can hear that throughout the record.
[00:16:16] That's why I love this song. And that's why I wanted to pick the song for this theme is because I want to hear the context of like, what does a breakup sound like in terms of like a complete work?
[00:16:27] Um, and it's there. I mean, it's not just... their music all, definitely has this kind of darkness to it, for sure, but it's like very palpable on, on this record in particular.
[00:16:39] Mahea: There's something stylistically interesting, too... like metal and adjacent genres and subgenres like, you know, hardcore and stuff like that, too... like there is this weird, like, chaotic fusion to it that's beautiful and interesting and kind of the perfect genre for this type of subject.
[00:16:58] Marcela: Some songs could be about breakups, but you don't really see them as a breakup song, right?
[00:17:04] Carter: Right, right.
[00:17:04] Marcela: You could just be like singing out loud all these lyrics. You're not really feeling what the artist was feeling when they wrote the song or what they intended anyways.
[00:17:13] Mahea: Totally.
[00:17:14] Marcela: You're just kinda like... you might just be loving the song because of production, because you really like that guitar because their vocals are amazing, right? You're not really... and I feel like until you are at that point in your life where like somehow this, this song speaks to you in a deeper way... that's when you just kind of identify with it and you might just really get it.
[00:17:42] track: [music]
[00:17:44] Carter: What do we have the pleasure of listening to, Marcela?
[00:18:02] Marcela: This is "Rootless Tree" by Damien Rice. The reason why I went for this song is because...
[00:18:10] Mahea: ...of the chorus!
[00:18:12] Marcela: No, really the chorus, but also like the whole... the whole song is very you know, it really speaks to me even though like I said earlier, I don't exactly feel this way.
[00:18:24] He's talking about the pain of being in this relationship. And, you know, every time I listen to it, I think about staying in a relationship that you know is toxic for you, yet you love this person and you just can't let them go. But when it gets to the chorus, it's like this angry...
[00:18:43] Mahea: ...like, righteously so.
[00:18:44] Marcela: But at the same time, I feel like it's like, "I love you, I can't let you go, so you need to let me go," right?
[00:18:50] But in this version, in the studio version, I don't feel it so much. Some people might like the studio version better than the live version. I love the live.
[00:18:59] Carter: Let's have a little listen to it, actually, together. Um...
[00:19:03] Mahea: This time you have to give us a little bit of the chorus, though, because I haven't heard the live version.
[00:19:07] Carter: Yeah. It's happening.
[00:19:11] track: [music]
[00:19:11] Carter: I love that. The guitar playing in the original is sublime. It's amazing, the little like depth of it, the harmonics happening, and it's really cool.
[00:19:39] The Rhodes is so good, I've never heard this, this live version. You mentioned this version, the chorus hits you harder, right? As opposed to..
[00:19:47] Marcela: I think it hits me harder from the very beginning.
[00:19:50] Carter: Yeah.
[00:19:51] Marcela: Yeah. The arrangement definitely, but also the mix. And this is what I tell my students all the time when they're mixing something: you know, emotion has to go into it.
[00:20:01] And I am not saying that the person that makes the studio version didn't feel any emotion. I'm not saying that. I don't even know who did it, but I have to be honest, it's not my favorite mix.
[00:20:11] And the reason why is because the vocals are drowned, the vocals are drowned in this mix. And so I am not feeling those lyrics the way that I do in the live version. The vocals in the live version are in my face, you're speaking to me, you're hurting and I feel you, I hear you.
[00:20:28] While in the studio version, there's a lot of production behind it. I can totally see how this was... also all the decisions were made thinking about, you know, very specific things, but to me, when it comes to the emotion, this mix didn't do it justice. I don't feel the emotion that I feel in the live version. And that's also a faster tempo.
[00:20:50] Carter: Yeah.
[00:20:50] Marcela: The lyrics are not as clear.
[00:20:53] Carter: Folks, this is the kind of high level insights you only get on this show. Like who... I honestly don't care what I have to say about songs or... and Mahea, I care what you have to say, but Marcela... From an expert, breaking this down. That was awesome. That was absolutely awesome. I love that. That was so good.
[00:21:09] Mahea: Well, it's a good point, too. With vocals in particular, I think that there is a point at which they become over polished, like often, in songs, where you then hear the live version and everything's so raw and emotive.
[00:21:22] Marcela: And that's all you need.
[00:21:23] Mahea: Yeah. Like, I want to fear for a singer a little bit. Like, I want to be afraid that they might not hit the note. And then they do, and it's satisfying, you know?
[00:21:32] Carter: Let's talk about the chorus itself in that transition. Regardless, I think, I think that studio version, live version, obviously a lot of differences, but that shift of how quickly it goes from like, "ah, this is a beautiful verse" to like, "fuck you," like, oh, like... it's, it's wild, and I, I think there's probably a reason why, like, I think it captures the, um, I don't want to say mood swings, but maybe that is it.
[00:21:56] When you're going through something that you maybe don't want to be going through, things can be volatile, right? They can just kind of get all over the place. And I think that this song does such an incredible job of like putting you in that, that space.
[00:22:07] Marcela: Right, but it's also so powerful when he says, "if you hate me, then hate me so good that you can let me out of this hell when you're around."
[00:22:17] Mahea: Yeah.
[00:22:18] Carter: That's heavy. Yeah.
[00:22:19] Marcela: It's so heavy. And I feel like we've all kind of been through this and meant... in different stages, you know? Some people have been in really toxic relationships where they're trapped and they can't get out. And then some of us just kind of let a lot of things happen to us, you know? We just kind of take it and take it and take it and then like, you know, just kind of like, "fine, hate me so you can let me go."
[00:22:42] And even though you love that person, you just want them to hate you. So then it's finally over.
[00:22:51] track: [music]
[00:22:53] Marcela: I have never yelled at someone, "fuck you." I have never done that in my life. And... you know? And I think this is why I also kind of like this song. I'm sure like a lot of people deserved it, but I have never done it.
[00:23:12] Carter: Kudos to you for having the self restraint. I think that's, that is impressive.
[00:23:16] Marcela: The last person I dated, he deserved that for sure. And instead I wrote a very polite email. So that is the Canadian in me just being so fucking nice. But also... but in this song, I feel like it's not so angry. There's a lot of emotion behind it. But I think that "fuck you" is like, "I don't hate you. I love you. But I'm done. This needs to be over." That's how I interpret this.
[00:23:48] Mahea: Totally. Well, and to reach the emotion level that you need to make that sort of statement in this way, in the context of all these beautiful lines... you can't feel that kind of anger at someone without being invested emotionally in them too, you know?
[00:24:01] Because the chorus doesn't feel like you're yelling at somebody who, like, rear ended you on the freeway.
[00:24:06] Marcela: Exactly.
[00:24:07] Mahea: It's a deeper "fuck you" than that, you know? Um, yeah.
[00:24:12] Carter: I'm just thinking of my deepest one. Yeah, it's definitely for, honestly, for me, it's for things like that. If somebody did rear end me on the freeway that's kind of... strangers doing things to you. Like that, that's sometimes like way worse to me.
[00:24:26] Mahea: But like, if it's a stranger, then they almost don't have a face in the moment, you know? It's like you're angry at an idea... versus like if you're angry at a person you know, like you're angry at something in someone you care about and that's harder. It hurts more because you can't just be angry.
[00:24:43] Marcela: Exactly. It's a combination of things.
[00:24:46] track: [music]
[00:24:49] Marcela: In the first verse, he says "it leans on me just like a rootless tree."
[00:24:57] Mahea: Yeah.
[00:24:57] Carter: Yeah.
[00:24:58] Marcela: That's like, you know, with all its weight, it's on me.
[00:25:01] Carter: Yeah, that line, I mean... it's the title of the song too, but that's how deep I can get with lyrics. But like, for me, it was like, wow, that, that's... the imagery of that, like a rootless tree, like literally just...
[00:25:12] Mahea: Yeah, and it doesn't have the potential to keep growing, which is an interesting statement.
[00:25:18] Carter: Another layer. Wow. Love that. Um, yeah. Marcela, any, anything else from uh "Rootless Tree," uh, from Damien Rice that you want to touch on?
[00:25:27] Marcela: You know, I'm talking about us being music producers and audio engineers, thinking about the emotion... definitely being, you know, technical people, for example, like if you're just like mixing all the time and just dealing with technology. By mixing something, I really have to feel it. And for me, it's like, "how can I get the message to come across?"
[00:25:48] And in the studio version, I, and some people might disagree with me, but in my opinion, uh, the mix just kinda took away from how powerful the message of the song is.
[00:26:04] Mahea: Dude, I've never heard an engineer talk like that. Like that just, I'm just like, oh my gosh, that just made me so happy. Like, yeah, that's beautiful. That's all.
[00:26:15] Carter: Cool. Um, should we listen to Mahea's pick?
[00:26:18] Marcela: Yeah, let's do it.
[00:26:32] track: [music]
[00:26:39] Carter: Alright Mahea, what are we listening to?
[00:26:59] Mahea: We are listening to Christine McVie perform the song "Songbird" from the Fleetwood Mac album Rumors... which yeah, Carter, you and I went in a really similar direction after all.
[00:27:12] Carter: Yes.
[00:27:13] Mahea: But when you guys said breakup songs, I had a feeling that both of you would go angst, um, just cause that makes sense, you know? Like that's where you want to go with the theme "breakup songs." Yeah. Even like the term "breakup," there's something angsty about it. Um...
[00:27:28] Marcela: But I think the three of us kind of covered a huge spectrum.
[00:27:32] Carter: Yeah.
[00:27:32] Mahea: Yeah huge, right?
[00:27:33] Marcela: You know?
[00:27:33] Mahea: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:27:34] Carter: Love that.
[00:27:35] Mahea: But yeah. So, so I did have, I did have the same thought that you did, Carter, where I was like, I want something that... like, at first I was googling, um, because I couldn't remember who it was, but there have been bands that have literally, like, broken up on stage while performing certain songs, and I was like, "that's a direction I can go."
[00:27:50] Carter: Yeah.
[00:27:51] Mahea: But I didn't. And then I thought about, "okay, well, who's the classic, like, breakup band?" And it's Fleetwood Mac.
[00:27:59] Carter: Yeah, it definitely is.
[00:28:00] Mahea: And this album in particular, um, Rumors, which is so perfect... like, even the name of the album. Um, do you guys know everything that was going on with music's "great soap opera" at this point?
[00:28:12] Carter: No, I don't. I, like, I feel like I'd read about a bunch of it, but there's so much that, like...
[00:28:19] Mahea: And some of it's literally rumors, so, you don't know what's real and what's not.
[00:28:23] But so Fleetwood Mac, one of the greatest bands of all time, was comprised of Mick Fleetwood and two couples, basically.
[00:28:31] So this album was released in 1977. In 1976, Christine McVie, who wrote this song and performs it, and her bandmate, John McVie, divorced after 8 years of marriage.
[00:28:43] And they're still playing together and they're still one of the biggest bands in the world, you know?
[00:28:47] Carter: Weird, yeah.
[00:28:48] Mahea: Also, around that time, Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks, another 40 percent of the group, who had been high school sweethearts, who were on again, off again, had just decided to call it quits recently, as well.
[00:29:00] Uh, supposedly the fifth and final member of the group, Mick Fleetwood, had recently found out that his wife was having an affair with his best friend. So he was going through a separation, as well.
[00:29:12] And on top of that, like, there was a lot of pressure being put on the band to do something great.
[00:29:18] So yeah, they managed to pull this together despite the fact that like... like I don't know, I think that you reach a cathartic point after a breakup, sure, where you like can genuinely wish the best for someone and collaborate well with them.
[00:29:32] I can't imagine working on an album to get there in that way. That sounds... I mean maybe it's a recipe for really good music though.
[00:29:39] Carter: It worked for this record.
[00:29:40] Marcela: Yeah.
[00:29:40] Mahea: Definitely.
[00:29:43] Carter: And maybe that's part of the lore of... and why it has gone down as like one of the greatest albums of all time is because of that...
[00:29:49] Mahea: it's fascinating.
[00:29:50] Carter: ...story around it as well, but also like, yeah, the music coming out of it, like that, that's, that's impressive.
[00:29:56] Much like the Deftones, Saturday Night Wrist.
[00:29:58] Mahea: Sure.
[00:29:59] Carter: Like same deal. It's like how? Yeah, I don't get it. I don't know. But it's also like at a certain point, like, how big is Fleetwood Mac at this time, like before, before Rumors?
[00:30:09] Mahea: Rumors is the, like, the legacy, right? But I think that the self titled album had already done well enough.
[00:30:14] Carter: So, it... in terms of a practical sense, it's, it'd be silly to like... it's such a lucrative thing to be like, "well I'm just gonna leave." Like, it's tough, but like, I'm sure that the cooler head's like... well, why, like... "we can't give this up."
[00:30:30] Mahea: Right. So they were big enough to warrant the title of the album, which doesn't necessarily come from their like personal lives. It comes from the fact that tabloids felt they were worthy of following around and lying about. Like there was even like some stupid story suggesting that Mick Fleetwood's kid was actually Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nicks' kid because somebody took a picture of them. Like just things where it's like that doesn't even make sense...
[00:30:55] Um, so they were that kind of big, so I think there's a lot of validity in what you just said, Carter. Why would you jump off the ship if it's cruising along smoothly?
[00:31:05] But there are other things that are interesting too, like supposedly Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks, they would fight all the time, except when they were working on music together. Like it was kind of like an armistice thing where they were just fine and so... that's an interesting thing.
[00:31:21] Um, so anyway, that's the environment in which this this song was created. Um, Christine McVie, she said in an interview with Mojo Magazine, um, I'm going to read you this quote. I never do the quote reading thing, but I'm doing it.
[00:31:35] "I've always written about me, but I've always written about other people as well. When you hear a couple going through trauma, you try and step into their shoes. So some songs would be about me and some really weren't about me, but Rumors, that album, is about all of us. The whole band. That's how we were. Something that isn't tangible drove us on to do it. We wrote those songs despite ourselves because that was the only way we could describe what we are going through."
[00:31:59] This album is so full of cathartic songs, but knowing that it was that for the band too is pretty awesome. This song in particular, I guess like the first time the full band heard it, it became kind of their like, everything is going to be okay anthem. Because it's sort of not a breakup song, right? If you look at the lyrics, they're mostly very optimistic and they say things like, you know, "I love you like I've never loved you before," kind of like all these really nice sentiments.
[00:32:24] But, you know, it's that true catharsis moment when you can genuinely wish the best for the person you are no longer... or with whom your relationship has changed.
[00:32:46] track: [music]
[00:32:54] Mahea: it's really beautiful and sad. People play it at funerals pretty often. But it also has like a, it has a joy that suggests that you've come through pain.
[00:33:06] I don't know. It's like, it's a very simple song harmonically. It's diatonic.
[00:33:11] The melody is beautiful, but it's nothing where I'm like, "oh, this is a crazy melodic move." It all just makes sense.
[00:33:17] And yet it gets to this deeper layer of meaning somehow. And I think she had to be in that to write that, you know? She even says that this is a song that came to her in the middle of the night. She woke up at 3:30 in the morning and wrote it in half an hour and just kind of crossed her fingers and hoped she wouldn't forget how it went when the day actually started. So yeah.
[00:33:40] Carter: I've done that but it's just gibberish when I look at it the next morning.
[00:33:56] track: [music]
[00:34:02] Carter: Is there anything else on the the Mac track, Mahea?
[00:34:08] Mahea: Um, there's just, so there's little things. Um, one, I think she... I think Christine McVie is probably the most underrated member of Fleetwood Mac.
[00:34:17] Carter: That's fair. Yeah.
[00:34:19] Mahea: But like not that any of them are, but like she just, for whatever reason, has flown a little more under the radar than everyone else.
[00:34:25] Like, Lindsey Buckingham was literally an SNL character.
[00:34:28] Carter: Stevie Nicks kind of, yeah...
[00:34:30] Mahea: Stevie Nicks is a powerhouse. Like, you know, it's... She's, she's gonna outshine most people most of the time if she's present.
[00:34:37] Couple things though, just, I think one of the reasons Rumors is such a, like, iconic album is the instrumentation and the sounds they chose. This is one of the only songs on the album that doesn't use Rhodes or Hammond, um, but those are all over the place. Also Christine McVie.
[00:34:53] Other than that, the one thing I want to point out is, this song just has one of the best lines I think ever for being so simple. "The songbirds are singing like they know the score."
[00:35:03] It just sounds like this pretty thing, and then you think about it, and it is kind of like a "que sera..." like, you know, "que sera sera, whatever will be will be," which is a, an interesting maturity, you know, after a breakup where you're like, "you know what? Things are gonna be the way they're gonna be," and um, there's something beautiful in that in spite of whatever pain or turmoil you're going through.
[00:35:24] And then at the same time it does that nice little play on like, like they know the score like of the song she's currently singing. You know, like there's just, there's a like, oh, we're all connected level to that that's interesting to me too.
[00:35:40] track: [music]
[00:36:01] Carter: Now, like for my possibly favorite part of every episode, just what are you up to musically and is there anything you want to share with our audience? Your socials where they can find you? I mean your website's incredible. So we should definitely shout that out, but yeah. The floor is yours to share anything right now that you would want to share with our listeners.
[00:36:20] Marcela: What have I've been up to? I mean I I teach full time. That's what I do pretty much every day. Um, and so that is my life. Um, and I love it. I absolutely love it. I didn't mean that sound sad at all. I love it. Teaching is extremely rewarding. And I love that I get to do it for, you know, the University of Lethbridge, Berklee College of Music, um, I get to mentor with Soundfly. So... I just, I do it all the time, every single day.
[00:36:56] You know, I started a new semester this year and I am teaching four classes at the University of Lethbridge that are in the realm of audio and music production, but so different. And I am four different people in one. And, you know, at first it didn't really, didn't really click. But then when I, when I started planning all my classes, I realized I am four different people.
[00:37:23] And so I have one class that's, you know, on analog production techniques. And so we're doing everything analog. We are recording to tape. We are, you know, recording to tape, mixing, mastering with analog gear.
[00:37:38] Then I have another class that's called, uh, Audio Spatialization Techniques. And that one is on immersive audio.
[00:37:45] And so I go one day from like, okay, dating back to 1950. This is how we do things. And then now I'm like, next year, you gotta be like... you know, we're thinking about the future, uh, immersive audio for XR platforms, this whole thing.
[00:38:01] And then I have this other class where we're doing electronic music production and so we're getting really creative and, um, it's mostly, you know, yeah, electronic music. Um, so we're creating a track, finishing a track every three weeks in a different genre. So we're doing drum and bass, then we're doing house, then we're doing trance. So, um, that's really cool.
[00:38:26] I have this other class where I'm bringing in guest speakers from all over the world. It's called World Instruments for Audio Engineers. And so we talk about... so the guest speakers talk about, um, instruments or music styles that are native to their countries. And then we discuss historic and cultural events behind, you know, the music styles. But then we discuss how we would record this instrument. If it's like an instrument that has strings, how much definition do I need for this style of music from the strings?
[00:39:00] You know, sometimes that's not even that important. And sometimes that's everything. So asking the right questions about the instrument, it's what you really need to learn. Not necessarily know how to record every instrument in the world, but is analyzing the instrument in a way that makes sense to you as an engineer.
[00:39:20] track: [music]
[00:39:20] Carter: And that's going to do it for this episode of Themes and Variation. Thank you so much for listening. We want to know your favorite breakup song, so as always, there's a link to a Spotify community playlist in our show notes. Feel free to add your selections there.
[00:39:35] Remember to head to soundfly.com to check out courses for all of your music learning needs, including the brand new Jlin: Rhythm, Variation, & Vulnerability.
[00:39:46] And please feel free to leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We'll be back in two weeks with a new episode and a new theme.