Doctor Sam, Hi, how are you?
I'm good?
How are you well? I'm good? Now?
Have we spoken about how many people I talked to? And how busy my mind is with other stuff? I should have asked you before, but you were prepping for a gig. You did the gig. I think we did chat briefly about how you went.
Didn't we?
Yep?
We did.
Have you got any more on the horizon.
Any more? Speaking?
Yes, public speaking too.
I've got a conference that I've organized next week with another business in town.
The theme is the superwoman myth?
Oh well, can you give us a little thirty second teaser?
What do you think that? What is the myth? Where does the myth come from?
So we so it's really centralized around this idea that a lot of women admire the woman that does it all. And so what we're trying to say with this, and we've got you know, speaker, We've got a keynote speaker, and a panel and I'm on the panel. But what we're trying to say is that we shouldn't admire the ones that do it all. It's not about doing it all right, There is no award for doing it all ourselves.
It's more around living a life that is aligned with your values, that you can express different parts of yourself. And so I think that that's more of the goal, right, so I feel connected to yourself to go after your dreams, to.
Feel like it's not one of the other.
It's not raising kids all my dreams, it's all these things can exist rather than this pressure of like I just you know, comparison, and I just need to do it all for the sake of it.
So that's really what we're anti.
Yes, I would think though, Comma, I absolutely concur with what you're saying. But I think that might be context dependent or situation or circumstance dependent in some cases, because you know, some mums might be single mums just trying to raise and feed and educate three kids, and so the craziness and the demands of their existence mean for right now, they do have to do everything because they don't,
do you know what I mean? And so I think, like, I like the idea, and I agree with you in general terms, but I think there could be someone listening to this going, yeah, that's great, doctor Sam, but come and have a come and sit in my life for three days and you might change. But you know, it's all It always depends, doesn't it.
It does?
And I think sometimes so those examples were obviously, like you said, on I guess on a level that we can actually witness, like you said, a single mom and having to do that all herself. It's around the internal pressure that we put on ourselves right to do everything
to a certain standard. So that's the kind of stuff that we can also check in with around Okay, this is all on me and I'm having to do these things, but how much of this is the practicalities like you said, but also how much a FeAs is like pressure to do it to the certain standard and where people room around that.
You know, I'm always aware that there's this like quite often I'm talking about and you're talking about. I would guess like these things that while they are very they're good ideas, they're good topics, they're relevant for a lot of people. I almost feel guilty talking about hardship and adversity and overcoming and because.
I don't really have any hardship.
You know, I go, you know, there are things in my life that are challenging, but that when sometimes I feel like am I the person to talk about? You know, overcoming adversity, or when my life has been really it's been pretty good.
There's been some tough stuff.
But then I guess, you know that's that's I guess I could say, who am I to train a team of elite netball because I'm not a woman and I've never played netball, but I've trained to lead netball, as you know what I mean.
So I guess you don't.
Sorry, no, oh, sorry, I was just going to say, I guess you don't need It's like I don't need to be It's like I guess you don't need to be a female doctor to be a good gynecologist, or or that was probably a terror, but do you know what I mean? It's like I think having gone through the experience can help because you have experiential understanding and awareness and empty perhaps.
But yeah, I don't know.
Do you ever get nervous like I get nervous talking about some things? Like I got a not abusive, kind of abusive message once from I don't know, it doesn't matter who, but someone telling me I shouldn't talk about kids because I don't have kids, Like I shouldn't talk about educating or raising kids or anything to do with parenthood or and I'm like, yeah, maybe, but also I
was a kid. Also in my businesses we trained thousands of kids, like I literally worked with you know, lots of kids in a sporting sense and also in the gym and elite athletes.
And yeah, but maybe we I don't know, maybe when you're a.
Bloke you get judged harder with these things, not with most things, but with that, I feel like a lot of people don't want to hear from some old dude talking about marriage or whatever when he's never been married.
Not that I would dare to give marital advice.
Well, you know what's crazy though with that is that we tend to then shoot the messenger and it becomes this kind of like character assassination rather than looking at the message, because you could have no kids and still make a really good point, like in isolation with that.
Right, So, I mean, I agree with.
What you're saying, though it does exist in society, and I think a lot of people, for example, are worried about talking about trauma because they're.
Like, in comparison to somebody else, it's not that bad. But then end up.
Dismissing ourselves and we don't realize that there was somebody like us that also feels the same, and there is somebody at that level, right that could really benefit from my insides but also insides. But what you said there around the not being a say the female, you know,
but yeah, able to benefit. I actually think, like when I look back at my say, my PhD journey, my three supervisors weren't parents at the time, I actually think that that they helped my parenting in ways that they did not know because, for example, other moms, when they were talking about my PhD journey, it was more around I felt like they were projecting their limiting beliefs on me, like they were like, you know, I'm just struggling to get through the day.
You're putting too much pressure on yourself, and maybe you should.
Be doing this or you know, for them, it was what they believed was possible as a mother. And yet what I experienced was when I was studying and I was working, and I was saying my home environment, I felt my nervous system was so much more regulated and I had way more quality time with my kids than when I was, for example, traveling and I was just catching up with people and the kids, and I had no additional things on my plate, and yet I felt
physically exhausted, like I couldn't imagine adding anything else on. Right, So people's perceptions of you've had all these things on your plate I actually found easier than just existing in the way that they lived life. But yeah, the way that my PhD supervisors, as an example, was they were
tending to my curiosity. They were boarding me and mentoring me through for example, that they didn't see me as the mum, right, they saw me as Sam and Sam who had this idea, and they were trying to foster that. So then when I saw my child, I'm not seeing them as my child. I'm seeing them as their person, and I'm fostering their curiosity. So it's almost like people help you with certain things in ways that you don't anticipate.
And I think, if anything, people who don't have children are not coming at it from this exhaustion, this depletion, the limiting kind.
Of beliefs their own experience.
Is if anything, the actually have a lot to add to the conversation inside.
And then yeah, of course there were to.
Become parents, their views would shift and they would have learned things and been like I thought, this but now I know this, but this is all part of the journey of being human, right, Like we go through experiences and then we shift o wws, like you want to be that person?
Yes, Wow, you're being profoundly smart this morning.
No, I love that. I love that. I I think I sometimes worry.
About the way that I write or the way that I talk because I'm so blokey. Also, I don't know that I'm that blokey but direct, and then I go, oh, my two directs. Should I fluff it up a bit? Should I soften the language? Should I?
And whenever?
I actually put up thing years ago and said if I think it was like I did a poll and I said to my audience, I think this was back in Facebook days, and I said, you know, do I swear too much? Would you rather follow me with the swearing or without the swearing? And I said, this is honest, like if I get if the majority want me to not swear, I will put up all my posts from now on without swearing. And it was overwhelming, like you're going to predict. It was overwhelming, like, for God's sake,
don't stop swearing. Right, It was like two percent of people wanted me in other words, they're just going, we'll be you. And it's but at the same time, I teach self awareness and I teach social awareness and you know, kind of understanding context, and so well, maybe me just talk and how I because I talk like as well, you don't know because we've never met away from the party, but you know, the way that I talk in life is exactly how I talk on a podcast, Like there
is absolutely no difference. But with a lot of people they have almost like an on air radio voice.
Or podcast voice or tele advice and it's a bit of a persona.
And yeah, but what is interesting about my followers which surprised me on in my Instagram you can go back and you look at you can every post as you know how many people have looked at it, and likes and all of those things. But the most interesting bit for me is when you go look at the audience male female.
My average.
I guess follower and people who view my stuff is constantly between seventy and seventy five percent female. Interesting, like always around three quarters and always around one quarter male. And if you look at the way that I write or some of the I don't know the nature of the post or this or that.
But also interesting is.
Like the last time I did a big just a me event what Melissa calls who runs my life, Craig up alive a Craig arp alive e in Melbourne. We're at Deacon University and we had six hundred and seventy five people, and at least six.
Hundred were women.
Yeah, I wore yeah, And so there were some dudes who chose to be there, but there were a bunch of dudes who were just dragged along by their wives or girlfriends.
And I'm not suggesting on any level anyone.
That this has got to do with how attractive I am or aunt, which is clearly evident, but yeah, it just fascinates me that I think I could be wrong, but my experience is that more women seem to be and maybe it's just in the social media space, I'm not sure, but more women seem to be more enthusiastic
about pursuing personal growth. And I'm not talking about the industry or the product or the service, but actually trying to grow and learn and evolve and use you know whatever the resources and Instagram post or a book or a workshop or an audio thing. Yeah, I think and guys definitely are, but I think there's a much greater percentage of women who who kind of habit the space of self help and personal growth.
And I think sometimes males come at it from a different way, which I think is actually helpful in a lot of ways too. Right, So I know that you're saying that that can be seen as like a floor when you're you know, not a female yourself or not parent, but I can also see the benefit to that as well, because you're able to come at it from a different lens. Back to the swearing thing, it's interesting, I feel like, you know, in the age of social media and also trying to kind of go okay, I want to see
what lands or I don't want to offend people. We try and then force ourselves to be neutral. But if anything, it's almost like the more that we can be ourselves, you're going to get those like true fans, and then you need those people that just hate it. And then that's okay because you're like, I'm big me, and there's going to be this percentage that absolutely loves what you're doing and your message and gets you.
And then there's the people that hate it. But if you.
Stand for something that's just an evitable really yeah, one hundred percent.
And I mean I've like, as I've said to people many times, I don't I don't swear for effect. I just it's how I it's how I talk, and maybe I should modify it. But then I think if I modify for what I think is a general audience, it's not like I'm doing a corporate gig where it's all fancy and smancy and you.
Know there, then there is more.
Of a specific protocol that you should you probably shouldn't get up there and say fuck right. And I get that, and it's context a pennant. And if I'm talking at a school to teachers or kids, of course it's you know. But when so on the podcast, I try not to worry about that.
I don't.
I don't like there's nothing strategic about my swearing or not swearing.
But it is interesting.
I did a post the other day essentially about and this could be true for many things, but like the psychology of being offended, and I've spoken about this maybe too many times, but I just find it interesting that you know, you'll say something and someone absolutely believes that what you said is categorically globally offensive, without even realizing that the three or four people around them are not offended by the exact same thing.
And it's always going to be based on on their worldview and their lens and their core beliefs. And this is what's really hard. No matter how nice you say something or how you kind of tip you to around things, they're going to take it based on them, not you, Like it's a projection.
I see this lot in the parenting kind of space too.
There was this lady and she was quite famous, and she posted a reel about how much of a present mum she feels because she has the babysitters and has the cleaner and has the like the whole team basically right, So wow, stressed because when I get to with my kids, I'm there and I'm present. And it triggered so many people watching these like I'm watching the comments and it was like, well, it would be nice to have that much money, and they're all kind of ripping her apart.
But no one again, they're shooting the messenger. No one took the message, which is when we have so much on our plate and we're trying and it's all on us it is stressful, and the less we have, the less stress we have, the easier it is to be present. And if we just took that little message, it could
honestly be the littlest shifts. Like you gave that example of the single mom, it could be like, Oh, as a single mom, when my I don't know sister comes to visit to see the kids, Instead of sitting with her and feeling like I have to be there because I'm the mom, I'll be like, you're an adult, do you mind actually watching the kids for an hour because I'm going to go for a walk.
For example.
Like, it could be the tiniest shifts, but it starts with that kind of cool message of like, Okay, I hear what she's trying to say. Now I can't do it in the way that she's doing it, But how can I take the message and adapt it for my life? And I think a lot of people struggle to do that.
I think trying to understand, truly understand, not agree with, understand someone else's reality or perspective like that has to be driven by a desire to want to understand.
Yes, a growth mindset, really, yeah.
Steve, that's Stephen Covey quote, which he probably ripped off from someone else. You know, seek first to understand and then to be understood. And you know, because I talk to and deal with the mentor and all of that, so many people who are not like me, not better, not worse, just different. So my first session with them is really trying to understand like the window through which they see and experience the world.
The empathy, right, and I actually feel like I thought I would struggle with this becoming a therapist, and yet I find it now and this is obviously years after. So we see to look at the core human needs and connect and even if someone in front of me has lived a completely different, like I'm talking pole opposite life, I can see that every human has these core needs and we all have and it's so much easier, I
think when we relate in that way. Like when I used to work, say with kids rite in therapy, and I'm looking at them parent, I used to look at them as an adult, and when I shifted that off, like Okay, I'm going to start from the beginning, what was their experiences like as a child, it just changes it, right, because you're like, Okay, I can see this story now like I get it. I get one feeling the wather they do or behaving the way that they are.
Yeah, I agree.
It's like I had a light bulb moment years ago, now, probably twenty years ago, when my mum and dad were in their sixties, not in their mid eighties, and I can't even remember what precipitated it.
It was with my dad.
My dad and I have buttered heads a bit over the years, not terribly, but.
And I remember, I can't even remember what transpired.
But then it made me think of my dad's childhood and my dad, you know, born in the first year of the Second World War and growing up first six years in a World war, and all the poverty that they were in the middle of and six boys, so two parents and six boys, so eight miles to feed, and.
You know, just there was so much to it.
And then my mom's mom died giving birth, so my mum was raised by.
Her grandmother and nuns.
And like there when I went kind of and really did a deep dive into what their life experience was compared to my life experience when I was a kid, which was, you know, it wasn't spectacular, but compared.
To mom and dad, it was Disneyland. It was like a movie.
And then you realize that this sixty five year old person in front of you is just that child with more years, more miles on the clock. You know, because we essentially become an older version of what we were when we were a kid, doesn't mean we don't change or.
Improve or get worse or but yeah.
That trying to understand why my dad was the way he was, or my mum, or when I didn't have to deal with any real hardship or adversary or you know, even living in a time where you don't know if you're going to be attacked or bombed or invaded or you know, all of those things. And that willingness to be able to put aside what you think or feel or you're whatever for a moment and try to really dive into the experience of somebody else. That can be a real emotional and social game changer.
Definitely, And I think this is where a lot of people struggle with it in terms of special especially looking at childhood black Kinjim and breaking cycles and things like that. To know that two things can be true in going my parents, like, Okay, this is like you said.
Understanding their story. This is why they are like they are.
They're they're living in this They lived in this world where it was like survival mode and their parents were so focused on getting their physical needs met that emotional needs were not even a consideration. And then so you acknowledge that right and be like, Okay, I can see why they're like that.
But then the other b which is like, oh, and these are this is kind.
Of what I need more now as an adult because when I was a child, I didn't have someone there reflecting my feelings back and holding space for them and being able to actually talk to them about things that were really difficult. And I think when we're able to do both, it's again it's not blaming the parent, but it's also not going, oh that didn't affect me. You know,
there's was worse and I'm completely fine. It's almost going. Actually, we all have childhood conditioning and limiting beliefs and things that we need to learn and unlearn, and I think when we look at it in that way, it's just so much more expansive for us because we know it's kind of what I need more of, and this is probably what they still need more off too in their lives, and yeah, holding space for I think for both.
I was talking to somebody recently in the last month, and this lady that I know, not very well, but not a nice lady.
Anyway.
I was talking to her at the cafe, which is my six thirty to eight am office, and apparently I'm open for business, apparently had that. No.
I just like, I know a fair few people.
So I get a lot of people just say hi and all of that, which is lovely and I don't mind it. And some people go, can I ask you something? And I go, yeah, you know, and then that might become two minutes or twenty minutes or whatever. But anyway, so I was talking to this lady and it was really evident that she was quite angry at her mum and grumpy at her mum. And I'm not saying she
shouldn't be, but I don't know what she is. I gets she's in her early fifties and her mum is in a mid to late seventies, and I was just thinking, oh, she's just a child, like she still wants her mom's approval. Yeah, and she still wants her mom to say that thing that you did or didn't do or whatever forty years ago, that's okay or that, And I thought, oh, yeah, God, we don't really grow up necessarily, we just get older and the bullshit that and I say, I've done this too,
I'm sure. So I'm not throwing an individual under the bus, but the bullshit that we hold on to, the stuff that we want to stay mad about, you know, the thing that happened thirty years ago that we can't undo. It can't be changed, we can't reverse history. And I'm not saying it wasn't terrible or tragic. We fully acknowledge the pain of it and the wrongness of it, all of that. But then you go, but today's Wednesday, and it's twenty twenty six.
Today, you know, like that isn't happening.
And just I don't know this thing that wants these emotional anchors that we carry around.
It's almost like.
It's on process though, because if you think about that example, right, the anger is actually festering away within.
Her, her parents not feeling that.
Well, they may get those like resentment kind of statements or maybe they are right, but it's actually mostly hurting her.
And I think there's two parts to this.
You could obviously get a parent that is in their older age and they're able to repair and acknowledge you know what, Like I can see that that hurt you, this is where I was at, but you might not. And so it's I guess for us right as the adult, to go, I need to grieve the parent that I didn't have or I wish I had when I was growing up in the experiences and allowing yourself to feel that grief, but then going, I am now responsible for my life and I need to give myself these corrective experiences.
If I felt like I was dismissed and shut down as a kid, I can still see myself treating myself like that. Now I need to be able to rewire this inner self talk that kid continues to do that because that's the damage that's been done. Every day that we're doing right, we can work on and so yeah, I think there's definitely an element here of actually probably both grieving what they've missed out and really acknowledging that pain, but then going I'm an adult, like what do I need.
I'm responsible for my life, and I think that that's very empowering.
And I know that when we're.
Able to do that, even especially as a parent, where they're not parenting from our unhealed wounds, we're actually parenting from this place if I'm healing myself alongside them. So an example of that, right is like, I'm never going to be like my parent, And then you go the other way and you don't even give them space to process their emotions because you're constantly trying to like be
the one to hear them all out right. So it's I think it's really important that we, even as adults, look at those wounds.
Yeah, and then you don't even understand things like when you know, I was six, Like when I was six, my mum was thirty. And by the way, my childhood was good. So the example I'm about to give is fiction, but you know I could at thirty, my mum could have been this emotionally disregulated, highly anxious, fearful, overthinking, self critical mum that that perhaps didn't always parent optimally, right yep, which wasn't the case. I think my mum was pretty great.
But as now as the adult, you don't even consider what your mum was going through or your dad at twenty six, or like my parents were, which is almost old back then. But they were parents at twenty four, which now is very young. But fuck, when I was twenty four, I was a moron.
You know.
I didn't know anything like trying to steal some person other person's life. How do I be a great parent mentor enrollment model?
And you just don't know?
And you know, a big part of that, though, is parents thinking that they need to hide it from their children and try and be perfect. And that's a whole other thing, right, because then I have adults in therapy going, But my parents were perfect, Like they handled everything when we were kids, and why am I struggling now? I feeling all these things when they were okay? And so what happens is when we see a parent as perfect,
we then internalize it. So the child's like, well, if you're perfect and you're handling it, it must because I was behaving this way, it must be my fault.
And so then they become really hyper vigilant.
Around their own behavior, right, Like it's always me versus if a parent's like, yeah, I'm feeling a bit stressed because of this on my plate. It's not you. It's I'm kind of dealing with some stuff. It's actually a whole lot better for a child to then grow up going, yeah, my parent had all this on their plate and they were struggling because then they don't see it as a
reflection of them. Yeah, yeah, they see to add human going through stuff and then they're like, I'm going to be a human going through stuff too.
Yeah, I get it, and I agree in terms of what you see now, and we're generalizing, and this is just one person's.
Experience that is yours.
What are some of the mistakes seems harsh, but let's just use that unless there's a better What are some of the mistakes that you see some well meaning, loving parents make that they don't even know they're making a mistake, like what you just said. One which is not just telling the kids or not necessarily being authentic about that they're stressed or they're worried or you know.
Yeah, yeah, so things that they have a look, I would say, right, which is that of going actually because they're trying to not put it on their child, they're overlooking the fact that they're now appearing perfect. So if anything, the child's going to actually put it more on themselves. So that's probably one thing. I think the other is
trying to heal through their child. So coming at it with I want to give my child the childhood I didn't have, is really you coming from a wound versus I want to give my child what they need, and I need to give myself what I need now as an adult.
So I think that's the thing which is huge, right.
I don't want my child to feel what I felt, again is coming from a wound, because the reality is children need to feel more than happy and content. They need to feel like disappointed and sad and grief and all of the things. And being able to hold space for that and not seeing that as a reflection of us and our felations and.
This whole I will end this cycle like it will end with me.
Then really dehumanizes us because it's like, well, all these other generations struggled, but I'm going to be this one that's going to completely make it perfect.
And what going to break this cycle?
Yeah, I'm going to break the cycle.
And so what happens is it becomes our little mission and there are like projects and that's not fair because they're a human and we're a human, and no one is going to break this cycle. What we can do is interrupt cycles and shift cycles and understand cycles, but you're not going to end it completely. If anything, that's a whole cycle in itself. And I think when we realize that, we then give our child that freedom as well,
where like, Okay, you're not my project. What I'm going to do, though, is I'm going to continue to work on this cycle. I'm going to heal myself and grow alongside you, and they're for.
I'm not going to heal through you.
And I think that that's huge because I think often we don't even see it. Every single interaction that you have with a child, whether you're a parent or a professional, is coming from.
Your own inner child round.
And if you're not working on that at the same time, then yeah, you're going to project it onto them.
You're going to make them your.
Little project and a way to feel good about, you know, what you didn't get and how you're giving it to them. But then they're not building self trust with themselves, they're not building connection with themselves.
I feel like there's this parenting a parental or parenting juxtaposition, and that is parents want to protect their kids, love their kids, you know, intervene for their kids. At some time at times, and they want them to be raised in a loving, warm, safe, familiar, protective environment. And that sounds amazing by the way, I'm not saying that's a bad thing.
But at the same time, they want.
Their kids to be able to navigate the world and be adaptable and be resilient and deal with hard stuff because the world is hard and life is hard, and life does not care about your child's feelings or you know, whether or not they come first or last. What's the typewrote that we walk trying to ensure that our kids are loved and safe but also not dependent in a bad way.
Isn't that really hard because and I think it's acknowledging the fear, like it is all fear driven because you're like, of course, I want to protect and love my child and keep them safe for things.
And you know, really buffer any hardship.
But then on the flip side, like you said, resilience is actually built when we go through hard things. And to be honest, I see a lot of people who struggle with addiction as adults and it comes from this place of avoidance of their feelings because they don't know how to cope with that. Like I don't know how to feel sad and sit with that. I don't know how to feel that grief. I just need to escape it. So this is really tricky, and I think when we
realize that, we realize it's not an easy answer. There is so much fear driving this cycle. But I like to then flip it and going what's the opposite of fear. It's opportunity. So if I fear this for my child, I don't want to mess them up. I don't want them to go through what I went through. I don't want this. It's okay, what do you want? What do you want more of? And the more that we focus on this opportunity, I want them to have experiences where
they feel seen and heard and loved. And I want them to have experiences where things are challenging but they can navigate it and I will be there to support them.
When we're focused on opportunity.
It's a whole different game, isn't that Then we see all we use this opportunity.
So then you don't go, oh, I feel so.
Bad, I'm going to mess up my child because I'm going on this holiday and I leaving them behind, and they're going to think that I'm just enjoying life without them.
You'll see it as Wow, this is such a great opportunity for.
Them to have these adventures with another safe family member, And it's an opportunity for me to have these adventures, and they're not being an opportunity for us to share these adventures.
Like it's a whole different way of approaching life, isn't that?
Yeah? I like it?
What about and I know these are just kind of I think these are some of the questions.
I know you there's I ask you. I should say that.
I know there are no definitive answers, but your thoughts on so kids and resilience. Do some kids, clearly at five or six, or seven or eight or twelve, are more.
Resilient than others? Now? Is that about genetics?
Is that about the environment that they are raised in and the parents and the style of parenting, Or is it about number three? Is it about the fact that those kids have just dealt with shit and had some experiences that kind of made them more adaptable, adaptable and more flexible and more capable under pressure. So one the parenting, the genetics to the parenting style and environment, or.
Three just going through stuff?
What do you think is the biggest factor in terms of the level of resilience of our kids.
Well, that's really it's an interesting one because I think what we're trying to do now is trying to construct resilience and we're trying to monitor it, and this is what makes it worse. So as an example, I think of this like, what is the concept of resilience. It's the ability to get back up again? Right, And no matter how many times you fall down, no one's letting them fall down.
Though.
So I think about saying myself.
Again with my studying journey, if I was studying in the way that I did behind closed doors at home, if I was doing it in a classroom, the teachers would say, I'm not resilient.
They'd be like, she's giving up.
I'm saying I can't do this, I'm stopping, I'm taking breaks, i can't focus. So their interpretation would be she's not resilient, she's not severing. But you see, when I had my own space to do this in the privacy of my own home, I stopped.
I was like, I can't do it.
I had middle tantrums, I went for a walk, I did all the things, but guess what I did when no one was around. I got up and I did it. And we're not giving kids a space to do that, for them to listen to their own internal compass around that of them being so internally motivated where they can get through it. And so yes, as a child therapist, I'd get parents like, my kid's not resilient. Okay, what are they doing? And I'm like, this is a path
towards resilience. You've just you've missed this last step where you're not reminding them that bit where they got up again.
And so it's almost like.
Yeah, sorry, I was going to say, and again you I don't think you or I know the answer to this, But thinking out loud, do you think in twenty twenty six, let's let's pick an age, like an eight year old is in more danger than when I was an eight year old one thousand years ago? You know, so I was in nineteen seventy one hours eight, right, So you go like, I wonder if there are more threats and danger as a percentage.
Now because I remember some of the shit that.
I did growing up in the bush was pretty fucking dangerous, sincerely, right, Or I wonder if there are more external threats now, or there's just more awareness or greater attention paid to those. I know you don't know the answer, but what do you feel about that?
Oh, when you think about it, We're all living in this world where there is actually a lot of threats in a lot of different ways, And I think it's just tricky balance between being aware of these threats and trying to be mindful of safety, but at the same time not making this such a fearful world where we're scared of doing anything and kids are constantly scanning for safety. Right, how do we navigate this? And I think it's this
is a tricky one. I don't think that there is any answer to that, but I think it's important to when I look at, say, childhood trauma, the ability to feel safe again is actually the healing part. So for a lot of kids there in living in that mode of scanning for safety and thinking that the world is a bad place and they're going to get hurt again, and.
You kind of want to go the opposite.
You want to be able to lean into the lightness of life and that it is a safe It's almost like what you see right is going to be what you see, So it's how do we then? I mean, if you're sitting there scrolling in the news, the world looks excremely scary if you turn them often you're on the beach and you're follocking in the water, can you, like your whole body feel safe again?
So it's a balance, and it's really tricky.
I don't think that there is an answer for that, but I think realizing a lot of it is our perception too, right. We can create our own realities around this based on environments too, which matters.
Right.
How much do you think, it's like we're doing a grown up interview today, how much do you think good parenting or parenting in general is about skill? How much is about intuition? How much is about learning by doing? And how much is about luck?
Like or is it? I guess it's all of it. But what do you like? Skill, intuition, learning by doing?
Luck?
What do you think is the biggest factor?
I think it's stress.
I think stress.
I think yeah, because I mean I think are going to parenting skill classes and being like, I don't know how to do this, Someone teach me. But I think if you really worked on the stress, yep, you become more connected to yourself. You know what they need? What you need is what they need? Like it actually is very intuitive for a lot of parents. It's just they don't trust themselves anymore and they're like, what do I say?
And how do I say it? But if they've really dropped kind of the performance and kind of going Okay, what they need is what I need? They need safety, I need safety, they need this, I need this, you would do it in such a more natural way, And I think a lot of the time stress blocks it. I mean, you could teach someone all the skills in the world of parenting, but if they're stressed the kind access ay of that, they're operating in a different part of their brain.
So I don't think there's enough.
Discussion around what stress does to our brain and how that puts us in survival mode, and that's why it's really hard to parent.
Do you think that you've got two kids, do you think that you were a better mum second time or first?
Like?
Do you think.
Yeah, so, surely like a bit of experience and a bit of on the job learning makes you a better parent. Like I feel like kids who are in families of five or six it's like the six kid almost has to raise themselves because they're just like an appendage to the family.
And isn't that interesting though, because it's almost like we live in a society where we think the more focus, the better, But you're right, it's actually like you realize a less focus, they kind of just get to figure out things themselves, and it's better for them because we're not trying to micromanage their experiences. So not just experience,
it's almost like the shift of focus. If you've got five kids compared to one kid, you can't focus on them so in depth, you know, as you would this one. So they do get more of a chance to figure things out and get support from their siblings and other people in their lives.
So I think that's it. It's not just the experience.
It's also how the focal point is just not so intense.
Right when does giving praise from being a good thing too, maybe not such a good thing.
I think both are necessary.
So we talk, you know, in our child centered play therapy and the play therapy filial therapy that we teach parents to do at home with their kids, we actually say, don't praise and the reason let me talk about why praise is good. Of course, I mean, it's just natural. You're like, good job. You know that they're looking at you for a bit of validation, and you're going, I
hear you, I see you. That's great, And that works in a lot of teaching aspects, and there's a lot of research around the positive reinforcement or good But on the flip side, when we suspend praise, it gives a child an opportunity to think about what do they think about that? And you know, it's like do you like my picture? It's like, looks like you're wondering what I think about your picture? Yep, yes, yeah, And you know,
so then you stop and you're not praising. You're like, and then you give them an opportunity to kind of be able to figure out what they feel. It seems like you put a lot of effort into that in that painting, and they're like yeah, you know, or they might be like, oh, I hate it seems like you're really disappointed with that painting.
They're like, so you're not really putting a value point on them.
You're really engaging their internal compass, their internal sense of how they see things, and that's really important. So I do believe we need to create experiences, and I think again, therapeutic plays right for that where we are suspending our PreK and we're giving them a chance to utilize their own internal motivations compass how they see things.
I could.
I just had a picture in my head then of me as a parent, which there's a funny thought, but my four year old coming up with a painting that he did or she did, and me going, well, that's fucking terrible, like like, really did you even try? I mean, it's out of perspective. For colors are all wrong. You know, you've gone over the lines. No, that's probably not the go All right, a couple more then I'll let you go.
I want to talk about something that's spoken about way too much, but we've never spoken about it, I don't think, and it's generally spoken about in relation to children's slash eight, nine, ten, teenagers. What's your vibe because you work a lot with toddlers? Am I correct in that as well as older kids? But you have two three year olds.
So play therapy is usually for three plus.
I would say, yeah, okay, what are your thoughts around you know, three year olds and screens like, and I know you're not a tech guru and you're not a neurobiologist, but you're a psychologist, so you certainly understand the impact of a certain stimuli on a human being. Like, when is the time where you would say it's okay to introduce screens to kids in a controlled way?
I think this is really tricky because there's obviously so much out there around do this, this is how much you should use. And I think it's understanding that all screen time is not.
Going to be comparable.
Right if they're watching something kind of meaningful versus say scrolling, it's going to do different things to their brains. I think screens can be a really good opportunity. It's the way that our world is going. So I think for a child not to be able to navigate a computer is actually going to be to their disadvantage or to know.
You know that there is at things on a screen.
But on the flip side, just like with us, too much is you know, it impacts the time outside, it impacts are played, impacts creativity and things like that. So I think it's probably looking at it more as everything in life are balance and kind of going. Okay, So screen time isn't just screen time. What is that screen time? It's going to be some passive watching a TV. There is going to be some app playing, there is going to be FaceTime with a family member.
Like, there's all just different kinds.
So I think it's it's not so much limiting screen time, but it's more I think adding not just that, but adding more boundaries with that, or adding more other things in their life. So it's just becomes this balance. I think for a lot of parents, shutting it off the same time of night really works well because a child, it's like cool, I can get that out of my memory, and then they start.
To be more creative or doing other things.
Some parents, you know, have different ways of different days where they don't use it. I don't think that there's any right or wrong. I think it's just something that we're all trying to navigate. Geez, I'm trying to navigate that.
Right with my phone.
It's like my best friend.
Everything's on this little device, and so I think it's just trying to know. From a practical point of view too.
I think, like many things like food, like drugs, like exercise, it's dose dependent.
You know, it's not that's a good one for it.
It's dose dependent. It's not about is phone use bad, it's like how much is bad?
Or is you know?
So yeah, that makes sense, all right. Last one for the minute. What's the consequence of kids being around parents who argue?
Yeah, that's a tricky Yeah, that's a tricky one because the arguing can happen in different ways.
Arguing could be their to all.
I'm not talking about domestic violence or scream or screaming. I'm just talking about mum and dad disagreeing and getting a little bit grumpy at each other. And I'm not talking about a DV or anything horrible, but just general, you know, knowing mum's a bit mad at dad or vice versa, or all that normal human stuff.
Yeah.
See, and that stuff can be good because what they're seeing is that two people can see things differently and that's really anticipated And what does that conflict resolution look like? Right, and being able to separate themselves from the problem and kind of going no, I want this and I want that and how that plays out. I think that that
can be really healthy because that's a reality. Right, We're always going to have conflict in some kind of way, whether it's with a colleague, whether it's in your workplace, whether it's with friends, and how do kids learn how to navigate that without seeing it? I think what gets hard is that often we don't have good conflict resolution skills at all, witnessed our own adults in our life, parents or people do it in very different ways, and
that's what comes out right. So you know, that's when parents kind of go into name calling, into other kind of things, so and.
Then the shame kind of hits.
And so for them to actually really dig down and go, what do I do in moments of conflict? Do I shut down? Do I try and fight back verbally? Do I freeze?
And being able to go what does that repair look like? How am I actually in real time going to be doing that?
I think it's really good for kids to see repaired too, because what happens for a lot of kids. They may see something and then it's like and no one talks about it again, and then they just pretend and then everything's okay after a few days of silence or in hours of silence.
Or whatever, that is.
So for them to actually see what does repair look like? How can we come back from that? And I think a lot of parents have shame around that, which is why they don't do their repair.
So it's a really tricky.
One, isn't it, Because I don't think a lot of people can manage conflicts, well, none of us, you know, we're all still learning this.
So it's how do we then show kids? How do we teach kids out?
Yeah? The more you talk, the more questions I have. Have you got time for two more? Yeah?
Both?
All right? Is boredom a bad thing for kids?
Like? Is that the enemy? Do they always have to be you know, entertained and amused and occupied? And like, is it okay for kids to just go through some boredom?
Oh?
I think the bottom actually creates so much opportunities for creativity when they get that. But it's just hard to create the circumstances where they can get bored in our society, right, there's always things to do. There's like, you know, you've got the sports, and then you've got these playdids, and then you've got devices. So I think it is really important to create structure and that where you can actually go.
We literally got shut down for this period of time, and so you're kind of creating conditions for kids to feel bored because and it's like, okay, what do they do with that boredom? And it's a good skill to be able to have because as adults, right, we also want to be able to tolerate boredom as well.
Last one, which is quite a selfish question because it's in my kind of my wheelhouse a little bit, but not with kids.
Right, So you're the expert.
So we know that there's a thing in sight called theory of mind, which for our listeners you probably know because you heard me, is really just trying to understand how other people think, having an awareness around others, the way that other people experience the world. We know that that kids tend to have a degree of theory of mind around two, three, four, am I?
Right? Sam?
Is it like when they start to realize that other people think differently to them and that their experience is not the same.
I think it's on top of my head think I think it's around That sounds legit.
I think it's around three or four. You know, when do you think kids start to become self aware and start to form an identity? This is very complicated questions, so I just want your thoughts, like, when do we start to feel like we have an identity. I am this, I am that, because I think it's not something I don't know.
I feel like this little.
Identity emerges over time, but it's not something that we ever really consciously kind of chose or navigated necessarily.
No, And obviously different theories see this in different ways. One of the theories I'm thinking of is around childhood development and talk about different conflicts happening at different stages of a child's life. And so you know, you've got like the autonomy right conflict there for Toddler's whether like I want to be myself more and I want to own thing. But the identity stuff actually comes more out in the teenage, So that's interesting around ye who am
I and where do I fit in this world? Is probably the teenage element, but I think throughout childhood they are doing it in little ways too, you know, in terms of school and friendships.
But as adults we're still doing that as well.
And so you know, what people see is like midlife crisises is actually it serves a purpose and kind of going and you see this a lot in mid life. It's like, hang on, I think I've been playing to someone else's script or well, I think I should be doing all other people's expectations.
What do I want to do?
So even a period like that actually serves a really good purpose because it's like they're becoming more of themselves. So I think we shouldn't. I think we're always doing that in little ways, and I think it is really good at a younger age to be able to slight these conversations around that where identities aren't just roles, they go deeper than that.
Yeah, yeah, right, last one promise promise. So we talk a lot about in twenty twenty six. We talk about psychological safety, yeah, and creating safe spaces and all of that, which thumbs up. But does our focus on creating psycho logical safety for our kids come at the cost of psychological adaptability and flexibility?
Yes? I think so.
I think we've almost like gone the other way, haven't we with that?
And I don't think we're putting.
Enough focus on Like you said, I think psychological flexibility should be more for a focus than psychological.
Safety because egal.
Flexibility includes the safety, but it also includes them to be a bit more, not just adaptable. We're acknowledging the boundaries that need to be set with certain things. We're acknowledging that it's like this and this potentially it's not.
Just one way. It's almost like.
It's almost like parents trying to, you know, validate kids feelings twenty four seven. They end up just becoming it's almost like a robotic about it, right, actually going.
Nope, this is the time. I'm definitely going to provide this experience.
But then I also need to like shift my focus away from that and give them a chance to be able to navigate this themselves. And there's boundaries around that. So I think we've definitely gone the other way with that, and I think psychological flexibility needs to be more of a key focus.
And I feel like if we allow kids to have experiences, you know, obviously we're watching, we're around, but we allow them to have experiences and encounters and moments and solve problems, which develops their psychological flexibility, then their threshold for dealing with hard stuff like their psychological safety.
Kind of what am I saying.
I'm saying that in certain environments which would freak another five year old out, this five year old might be comfortable because she's been doing all of this stuff to just deal with the complexity or some of the complexity
or discomfort of growing up in the world. Whereas when we're putting them in this little kind of I guess up well intended bubble where we're kind of we're running the offense all the time or the defense all the time, I should say, and we're always doing everything so they don't have to feel anything bad or they don't have to have any uncomfortable experience, Like we're putting a limit
on their capacity. So when they get pushed out of home into school with thirty other kids, all of a sudden, in this room with a teacher, that's attention has divided thirty ways or whatever the number is.
Twenty ways.
Yeah, I feel like I think that is a thing that's been maybe pushed into the background a little bit as we've honed in on this obsession we have with psychological safety.
Yes, and like you said, you were saying, you know us being there, we're actually not there. Like if you think about school, right, they're in pre primacyarily one, you're not a teacher's not there to hear every single conversation in the playground, and so there is this I guess we want to equip children with the skills of like, not everyone is going to like you, Like, no, everyone likes us as adults, to have those colleagues that you're closer to and the ones that you don't. You don't
have to play with everyone. You don't have to invite everyone to your parties. And if once there's something that they don't like, yeah, you could go tell the teacher, but you could also just not play with them and walk away like that's okay too, right, So it's almost like getting them in this permission to be like, yeah, this is kind of what happens, and people are going to say things that we don't like, and what do we do with that?
So you're right, I think we're not.
Really It's almost like the zero tolerance of bullying in schools. I think both contributes to this issue, because there is bullying in where places there is no such thing as a zero like there will never be zero bullying.
If anything. It's not labeling people as you're a bully and you're not.
It's kind of going these are what behaviors kind of constitute is that? And these are the thing we can do to move away from it? And I think if we normalize that more than everyone's got the capacity to use bullying type behaviors, then we'll give children, will equip them more with actually managing that, and that's going to help them when they're an adult, rather than going zero tolerance shut down.
This doesn't exist.
Yeah, yeah, I get it.
Beautiful, get off my slavebox now, No, I love it. That was one of my favorite chats with you. What do you want to point people towards? Where do you want to steer people to your website or your your work or.
So my Instagram is Dr Sam Casey or my website which is dr Samcasey dot com. I have a actually your course coming up which is around breaking cycles without breaking yourself. So I talk about some of those things that we've mentioned here around that I don't want to mess up my kid.
Kind of cycle?
Is that online or face to face?
It's online?
Oh, kitty up, but a cup that's great.
Yeah, we'll say goodbye a fair but Sam, appreciate you and keep doing the great work you do.
Thanks you too, Craig