God, are you bloody champions? It's me.
It's Craig Anthony Harper from the You Project. It's Friday. We're sliding towards home plates. The weekend is coming up. I'm sure you're all excited or you're probably listening to this next week. You're probably not listening to it right now. Good thinking, Harps. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing in Australia outside of Australia, we hope you're well today. I'm excited because I'm talking a brand NEWI a brand newie, somebody that I met recently. We kind of intersected with
work and a few other people. She's a straight up smarty pants, but she'll feel more anxious now that I've said she's a smarty pants, but I'm not going to recant it. That's just how I roll. Her name is doctor Anastasia Sutan. Did I get the surname right?
Anna? You did? Ah?
Go me? And we've been kind of chatting a bit and doing a few things, and I really enjoy talking to people who have which is nearly everyone knowledge that I don't have, understanding that I don't have, and anything.
As you'll know, I'm a little bit.
Obsessed with the mind and human performance and behavior and self management and self regulation and self awareness, all the self stuff. How do I optimize me in the middle of a suboptimal environment or situation? How do I navigate and negotiate and optimize all the stuff that I have to deal with, you know, strengths, weaknesses, limitations, And so that's what we're going to do. So after that very long winded oh you know what I'm going to do.
Before I stop the long windedness, I'm going to read this a little bit.
Doctor.
Let's just go with We're going with Doctor Anna today is a clinical psychologist with more than fifty I don't know how old this bio is, so you can.
Correct me in a minute. And she's thinking, oh God, where did you get that? From?
More than fifteen years experience working with kids, adolescents and adults across clinical, educational and private practice setting. She holds Masters and a PhD. Like I said, Smarty Panting clinical Psychology and Adolescent Specialization from the UNI of Melbourne is a registered and endorsed clinical psychologist with Psychology Board of Australia and a whole bunch of other stuff, like a whole bunch of other stuff, so I won't keep you waiting any longer.
Hi Anna, how are you?
Hello? Craig? Hello everyone, lovely to be here. I'm really excited to be here.
In fact, so this is your podcast debut, right mm absolutely?
Now let me I need you to be honest.
Is the psychologist who helps people stay calm?
Is she calm for me?
I was using all the tools eightish my clients, the breathing, their mindfulness. But yes, I'm still feeling a bit nervous, to be honest.
Well, you know they do work. That's okay. That doesn't mean you a week or broken. That means you normal? How far? I don't know, do you.
I have this experience often where like I know, I know I'm not a fraud, but I feel like a fraud. Or I know that I'm good enough just intellectually because I have experience and evidence and data that says, Craig, You're not a complete idiot, But nonetheless I have that feeling of inadequacy or not good enough itis, and that can overwhelm like that feeling can overwhelm all the stuff you actually know.
Right, Yes, almost the imposed to syndrome in a way which I still sometimes get even that I've been practicing for yes, over fifteen years during this kind of work. But yes, I guess that kind of performance anxiety be a bit of a perfection of myself. That's something that I can certainly feel.
This might sound sexist.
I don't mean it to be, but my observation anyway is that more women seem to be perfectionists rather than I'm not saying I think it's obviously both genders, but I don't know. Maybe I've just noticed that it seems like I know more ladies that are perfectionists than men. Men are a little bit like, ah, it'll be right, is that true?
Look, when it comes to perfectionism in general, I'd say probably both men and women have that equally. But when it comes to the social perfectionism, I'd agree with you. I think that women can be more socially perfectionistic.
And what is that? How does that express?
Like?
What does that mean? Socially perfect perfection? Is that the way I want to really control how I think people see me, or my behavior or the way I dress or present to the world.
Is it that stuff for work?
Stuff for yeah, very much, all of those. So it's like setting really high standards for yourself and then internalizing that fear, having that anxiety and stress about well, how are you going to perform? How are people going to perceive you? And that's kind of grows very much along with what you've been working on with your thesis, isn't it that needs a perception?
Yeah, yeah, I'm I mean, I've been fascinated with and I ain't about me, so we'll get back to you. But I've always just been fascinated even when I was a kid. I have this vivid recollection of going to my mum's uncle, right, So that's how young I was. It was my mum's uncle's fiftieth so my mum was like thirty and he was fifty and I was six
because mum had me when she was twenty four. So I'm six years old and I'm at this event with all these old people, like thirty year old like dinosaur human beings, right, And I was the only child at this party of about sixty or seventy people, And I remember being I was a bit of a weird kid, right,
because I was an only kid. I was an only child, so I spent a disproportionate amount of time around grown ups and listening to, for better or worse, adult conversations, and I think I was like, if I don't think I'm particularly gifted, but if I do have any natural ability or gift, it might be with communication, right and understanding how people think ergo my research. But I remember listening to old people in inverted Comma's talk and thinking how boring they were and how much they could just
talk about nothing in particular. And I became I didn't know what it was, but almost like this social dance of how are you good in you?
And how did this and how did that?
Oh great, and just all this bullshit like super visual, like nobody was actually talking about much that interested me anyway. So I think that you know, that's long standing for me is being fascinated with other people's experience of life. You know that whole thing you and I are in the same conversation. Now we're not in the same experience, you know, same day, same podcast, same time, same you know what looks from the outside the same experience, but
is totally not. And then becoming aware that, oh, like with you, like what's making me nervous or anxious or this or that is not the event or the situation or Craig, but rather how I process it all, like just that recognition of ah, when you think, oh that that makes me anxious. Oh no, no, no, you're thinking about that makes you anxious? Anxious or this is a stressful environment. And then you go, well, how come that lady over there is not stressed or that guy is
not stressed. Then you start to understand the way that we self create knowingly or not every day.
Exactly, and that's where the whole notion of that met recognition comes into play. Have you seen that interview with Alien Goo feel skier sorry freestyle skier who won the gold medal for I think for China, the American Chinese. Yeah, well, and she was giving that interviews talking about how metacognition helps her in working with her mind and improving her performance and making helping her grow not just as a skier but as a human being, being like the best
version of herself. Is really fascinating to hear her speak about that and like being like a scientist exploring her brain, exploring how it reacts to different things.
Yeah, like trying to understand yourself, which is literally why this show is called The Youth project, because I think the biggest project I have in my life and will ever have as me, and not from a selfish point of view, but trying to understand me, trying to understand me for others, trying to understand why do I react that way, why do I operate an ego? Why am I insecure when I've done this thirty times? Or why do I talk this way or that way? Why are
my behaviors the way they are? And and you know, without doing without being too self indulgent or going down the Craig rabbit hole too much, and then you just become a weirdo, but just understanding how I operate in the world me and then how I operate.
For others, like what is my Like what's the Craig impact?
And that's not an egotistical question, that's a curious one, because you know, sometimes I can talk to twenty people and I have a negative impact on one and a positive impact on another, and You're like, all the outcome is negative or positive, and you go, this is so crazy because even then it's not as much about what I'm saying. Although I'm a stimulus, but I am not the determinant of their experience.
Does that make sense?
Absolutely? It's interesting. In my practice, I'm seeing a lot of people who actually, well, I actually my area of passion is you're a divergence, and I'm seeing lots of people who are You're a divergent. And what I find, especially with females, is that they do a lot of almost over analyzing. They are over focused on how others perceive them, and they constantly scan the environment, They constantly scan the other person there with or other people there with,
and that's where the whole masking comes in. So it's not just trying to understand how they're perceived by others, but also trying to adjus to make sure that they're liked by that person. And that's where the whole kind of question is, well, is it always a good thing to be very good at that meta perception?
That is a great question. So here's my answer.
I think what you were talking about there is largely driven by fear. Please like me, please accept me, Please think I'm good enough.
Pretty enough, smart enough, like.
It's a fear based driver, whereas what I want to encourage is a curiosity based driver.
So that like, for example, if.
People think I'm handsome, or ugly smart or dumb whatever, I honestly don't care.
It's like, well, that is what it is. Do I want people to like me? Yes? I do?
Why because I'm human and I'm still a bit insecure. But if they don't like me, also, that's okay.
But here's the thing. If you understand.
More accurately or with greater insight, you understand the Anna experience for Craig, you know what it's. You've got an insight into how I experience you. Then now you have a conversational and sociological advance because you know something that
the average person doesn't know. So too, Like you know, if you're working with somebody right now who's say, you know, on the spectrum in some way versus somebody who isn't, you will automatically adjust your conversational style perhaps and the content.
Of your words.
And you know, but you do that automatically because you know this will be more appropriate with this person and this will be more But that's something that we do on autopilot. But then when you kind of fine tune that into you know, like you think about when you'll say talk.
I don't know if you ever do. I'm sure you do. But when you talk to a group of twenty thirty, forty fifty, now you've got now you've got fifty people in the room processing you and experiencing you.
In their own unique way. And that because the only person who thinks like you in the room as you, yep, and so to be able.
To factor that in real time, you know, that's that's one of the does does that come into play when you're working with people who are neuro divergent trying to understand there they're in the moment reality?
I would say so yes, And look, something I wanted to say is, well, we've had we've known each other for a pretty short period of time, but there was something I actually wanted to share with you, and in fact, something I wanted to share publicly for the first time since we're speaking about neuridivergence. Is that actually I've recently learned about being uridivergent myself. So that's something.
Yes, I'm quite thank you, thank you so much.
Like we had a quick chat before this and and I told me that, and I went, like, we've met a few times, not a lot, but yeah, I went, yeah, well I'm not and not in a good or bad way, just as in a well yeah, it's kind of like me going, I don't have heaps of hair on my head. You go, well, of course you don't. I can see it. For me, it was a little bit like that. But how is that for you now? So you've got this new knowledge or awareness, how is that for you?
Yes, look, it's empowering, I'd say, it's also almost liberating. So I've I've been recently diagnosed with AUDHD, so that's both autism and ADHD. I felt pretty much the same way as you did when I share the news with you, in the fact that that's a surprising. In fact, when I went for the assessment, I knew exactly that this
is what I am. For a long time I have been contemplating with I am your divergent, but somehow I didn't feel like I could fit into one of those boxes of being an ADHDR or being autistic in that kind of perfect way. But then when I started thinking about the actual AUDIHD profile, I thought, well, that's me, that's exactly me. And interestingly, up until twenty and thirteen, so based on the previous DSM, the M four, we couldn't actually diagnose someone with both of those conditions and
that's fascinating. So just thinking about it, how our understanding of our awareness of neurodivergence has been evolving really quickly and really shifting the way we think about neurodivergence. So a lot of people, I would imagine I'm the same kind of prior as me, feeling that they don't quite fit into either of those. But the AUDIOHD profile really
kind of resonated with me. I could really feel that this explains so much about me and gives me so much insight into why I do certain things the way I do, why certain things are easier, why certain things are harder. So I feel like it's been a really kind of helpful experience for me to gain that self awareness, gain that level.
Well, thank you for sharing. That is a gift and well done you. Now is the term that you're using, or DHD, so it's an amalgamation of autism and ADHD so or DHD yeh DHD.
So what are the things that for you.
Are easier and harder because of that or in relation to that, I'll.
Start with the easier ones. In fact, there are lots of things I love about the way my brain works. I am a very curious person. I get really super passionate about things. I mean to really excited. I have lots of things I love doing, and I when I'm feeling good, I feel like I have end loose energy to do things. So you probably know that I have five kids and I love that kind of busy, full on, exciting lifestyle.
Yeah.
Yeah, But can I ask you another weird question?
Right?
Go ahead, because I'm just I'm curious.
So you and I met at a meeting, at a business meeting.
We'll just leave it at that, right, And how do I say this?
It's like I feel like I think you and I get on well, right, Like I said, we've spoken four or five times, but I felt like you and I couldn't be more different, Like there are things that we have in kind, but at one end of the scale, whatever scale we're talking about, is jumbo fatty Harps Craig Harper. And at the other end of the scale, as you
not a good or a bad end? Just did you like you must have had that awareness when you met me, because I had that awareness, not in a like this isn't a problem, this is I'm glad you're not like me.
You're glad. You're glad, I'm not. You know, you're not like me, or vice versa. Right, what was that like?
I'm used to sharing space with people who are very, very different, and I love that. I love being around people who are who see things differently to me, who perceive things differently to me. I find that very fascinating.
So my kind of curious part of the brain is really excited about being able to interact with people who are different, and I think that as a psychologist, I'm also doing that quite a bit, kind of constantly stepping into other people's shoes some as you previously said, trying to figure out how they perceive me, trying to figure out what this experience is like for them. I love that.
How do we here's a tricky a question. Okay, so how do we?
You know, I've got biases, I've got certain things that I think and believe and hold to be true. I'm also very aware that I've been wrong a lot, so I don't hold these ideas too tightly. But you know, when you go and work with someone or I don't know, there are specific tools that you use, but just in general, you're always looking through the anna window. I'm always looking through the Craig window, and sometimes that helps and sometimes it doesn't help.
Ye, are you ever awareness? Are you ever aware?
Or I don't know, do you ever think about is there in this moment in this like even with a podcast, this is your first time, this is my millionth time, and so by the way, you're doing great, But you know, like coming into it, it's like, well, this is.
New, this is unknown, this is what is he going to ask me?
Because there's no brief, there's no preparation, there's no rehearsal. Do you ever think about how else can I think about this other than that any way which might be a better way?
Well, I guess it's all about kind of zooming out a bit and trying to, yeah, trying to think about the situations that kind of external perspective a bit. But I still have my own lens that I'm looking through, and I guess that this is why I try to make sure that my lens is as I can't say, I can't say objective, but us I don't know what's the best word to use.
Kind of I think I think objective as you can as you can be right, and that's possible.
Probably that's the word right right thinking about.
I feel like part of self awareness and self understanding is realizing how much self awareness you don't have.
My view is always going to be subjective, but I'm being curious. I'm really trying to allow the person to share their experience with me, and I'm just the person who kind of listens and processes this, and yes and for kind of facilitates this process.
When you we're going to jump into your work a little bit in a moment, but just staying in the personal space with you. So when you found this out, well, I guess the first people you told about your AUDIHD was your family?
Am I correct?
My husband?
Yes? Did he go and or did he go oh my god?
No? He was just so neutral about it. I was actually a bit shocked. He was like, we were cooking dinners together. Then I went, you know what, I'm pretty sure I have AUDIOHD and he goes to, whatever, if you told me you're an alien, I don't really care.
What a good dude.
And did you feel apprehensive about telling people or did you kind of feel a little bit relieved of Well, this all makes sense. This kind of is more understandable.
It's sound a bit awkward, but at the end I did feel relieved. I feel like it's still a bit of a process where people will continue kind of like people around me will continue questioning about this and what it is like, possibly reflecting what this means for them personally. So it's only kind of the beginning of that journey because it's all very new. But ultimately I think it's been a really positive experience.
I feel like it's going to give you a level of understanding and empathy and awareness that other clinicians might not have. I'm not saying won't, but because obviously you've you know, you're a clinical psychologist, you've got a PhD in that, you know, you've got a master's degree, and you've done a huge amount of work in their space. But also you just you know, you're living kind of
a version of what other people are living. I know there's lots of variation, but that I kind of think it makes a little bit of a superpower almost.
I agree with you, And that's the thing I've been kind of experiencing for a long time. When working with your divergent people, I will almost assume things they're experiencing and share my assumptions with them and they go, yes, exactly, that's it, and he's surprised, like, how do I know all those things? And initially I just thought, well, I just kind of have that intuitive feeling or maybe that knowledge that I've gained. But now I realize it's more
than that. It's my personal experience that helps me build that level of understanding and empathy, and that's really helpful as a clinician. I think that's so it is a superpower.
Yeah, I think that intersection of you know, education and training, but you know, in the moment kind of learning on the job, learning experience, empathy, aware insight, all of the stuff you can't really teach at a university.
So we need the training, we need to understand the brain and the mind, and we need to understand human behavior.
But at the same time, you know, all that additional stuff I think is going to make not your job easier, but I think it's going to make you more effective as a practitioner, or it might already be doing that, of course, you know.
And I think the other thing too, is.
Like, this is going to sound contrary and contradictory, and well, I think it's great to be academically qualified because we do lots of good learning, and we start to understand the science behind whatever the treatment or the diagnoses or
the whatever. You know, we understand the research, and but there's stuff that you know, Like I know, I was basically an inverted commas using psychology and my understanding of my natural and experience and on the job learning with psychology and human behavior, and like when I was in my twenties, even though I wasn't a psychologist, and even you know, I'm just finishing my PhD in psychology, I don't actually think drastically different because I came from being
small best kid to being a kind of quite fit athletic kid to working with people in the gym. And one thing that everyone has in common when they come to a gym is that they want to change. Well, change is a multi dimensional process. It's not about your body fat percentage or your lower back or your blood pressure.
It's about one hundred things. So even though I knew how to prescribe exercise, and I understood pretty well anatomy and physiology and biomechanics and nutrition and energy systems and all of those things which you kind of need to know, but if you don't understand the human who lives in the body, you can't do a great job. So I was all more fascinated with why they think the way they do, and why they choose the way they do,
and why they behave the way they do. Then I was in their body composition, and that kind of helped me become quite good at my job.
But that was before I sat in one lecture of anything, you.
Know, thinking about change. I mean, yes, exactly. You can't just focus on one thing without actually focusing all the other areas which are implicating that.
Yeah, Like we were chatting the other day about the importance of even for people who do get diagnosed, you know, somewhere in the neurodivergent space. And then you go, So there's that, there's understanding that and what's going on there. But then there's also I hope they get some good sleep. Also, I hope they don't drink too much booze. Also, I hope they do I hope they have a kind of
active lifestyle. Also, you know, I hope they do meaningful work that stimulates them and makes them feel like they have a purpose.
Like there's all of these other things that.
You won't find in the DSM five or any well whatever you know, where you're talking about, how do I help this person manage their.
Mind or their brain and what are all the things that we don't really talk about much that affect that because it's that other stuff as well, that broader understanding of the totality of the challenge.
Absolutely, and the more we learn about how people here on your a divergent function, the more we understand the importance of this holistic approach, the kind of really thinking about making some meaningful changes in terms of the person's everyday lifestyle and functioning. So just the other day I saw the article which said that people say who have ADHD have a much lower life expectancy, like on average, yeah.
Or something.
Oh, look for males, it's about seven years less. For females, which I was really surprised to hear, it's about nine years less.
Wow, And why is that shock?
Why is that?
Doctor? And why is that?
I think there are lots of ways to explain this. One is that people with ADHD tend to have high levels of impulsivity. In general, they are more prone to different types of addictions, so that can have a big impact on their lifestyle. But also we know that our DHD goes a lot goes hand in hand with different physical health conditions like heart conditions, obesity, stress, anxiety. All of those things contribute to the person's health and legality.
Suicide is another thing. So people with who are your idivision have high risks of suicide. So there are lots and lots of factors to consider, but I think it's just something that really stresses they need for that more holistic approach.
What is okay, So let's let's pair it right back. So somebody's listening to this and they kind of know what neurodivergence is, but can you give us firstly, so two part question stand by. Part one of the questions is can you give us a kind of a lay person's kind of easy peasy to understand definition of neurodivergence.
In your language.
And then the second thing is, well, let's start there before I give you, like, just help us just understand, because I think we all guess it's like, oh you're different, cool, how what what kind of is it?
Yeah, look, without going too much into the kind of the technical nuances, it's really having your brain. That's why, in a different way to what the kind of the society deems as the stand up setting. So it's like having a different operating system and a way so this like we can imagine this the Mac system and the Microsoft system, and there are different systems. One's better for something,
the other is better for something else. But if we try to run the say the MAC program on a Microsoft system, it's going to be it's not going to be it's not going to be optimal in the way it operates. And same with someone who's near a diversion.
So we kind of the society expects them to function in a social setting, which is which often doesn't match the needs of someone who's neurodivision because the way they see things, the way they feel things, the way they perceive and sense the world is different to the neurotypicals, and that can be quite disabling in.
A way, I feel like sometimes, So we have a guy who comes on here a lot. His name's are Bobby Capuccio, and he had a brain injury when he was a kid. By the way, he's super smart. He's
got this like idetic memory. He's a great communicator. He's actually a coach and brilliant, right, but he's got Tourette's so he's got all these ticks and he's one of my he's one of my best friends, right, But he's got all these ticks, and he's you know, he's quirky and he's and I think when people sometimes meet him, they don't know who exactly how to talk to him, although he is actually a brilliant communicator and all that.
And you know, because I've known him a long time and it's you know, I'm not even aware of it anymore because he's a friend. Then I see some people respond around him, and sometimes he says things that are funny to him but not funny to anyone else.
Like sometimes you know that, and you're like, oh, okay, is it I mean, it's nobody's job. But when it.
Comes to people that are really different from us, whatever that means, whether or not we're on the spectrum or they're not, or when you're a divergent, is it our job to try to Like, you know, if you just be yourself, you might be offensive to them, or you might be intimidating to them. Like I know that I can be intimidating. I don't want to be intimidating. I don't try to be intimidating, but for a range of
reasons for some people, and I completely understand it. I can be inning how other people will go, Oh, you're funny, or you're inspiring, or you're clever, or you're an idiot or whatever. Is it our job to try to work around them or just be ourselves?
Are you talking from a neurotypical typical person specifically?
So for a neurotypical person who intersects, do we try to I mean, I feel like if I'm trying to accommodate them, maybe on being somewhat condescending or like I just want to know, and I know there's no single best thing.
But like what is how do we approach that?
Yeah? Look, there's this whole notion of the double empathy. Have you heard about.
That quig enlighten me doc.
So this is kind of the viewpoint that it's not like nero virgin people have deficits in the way they communicate or the way they're socialize, but it's mostly that their style of socializing and communicating is different.
Yeah.
Yeah, And so just like new redivergent people may feel that the newer typical people communicate in a weed or or could or you know uncomfortable way or way that makes them feel uncomfortable. Likewise, neurotypical people may feel the
same when they communicate with someone who's new redivergent. And I guess it's not so much about really changing the way you communicate, but it's more about having that empathy and that understanding that yes, look, this is how this person interacts, this is what feels more comfortable for them. And if you have that level of understanding and awareness, I guess it would naturally help you adapt to that way of communication in one way or another.
Could you thank you for that? Could you tell us a bit about the work that you do.
You're a out thearies, but your day to day, your job, Like, what is your job now, obviously you're a psych, Yeah, what's your day to day?
Yeah. Look, as a clinical psych I do a bit of therapy, mostly with kids and adolescens, But apart from that, I actually do quite a lot of assessments, a lot of clinical assessments. So my real passion is helping people learn more about who they are and why they do certain things their way they do. I guess I'm very analytical in the way I think, and I really enjoy the process of learning more about the person's experience and kind of integrating all the knowledge I gained from them
in order to make sense of the experience. So I show you.
Oh sorry, sorry.
So people come to you for a diagnosis or for at least to meet you and then a potential diagnosis, or people get sent to you maybe they've seen someone else another professional, and then they send them to you to get a diagnosis. Is that correct?
That's right?
Yep? What are I feel like?
Okay, so let's say I come along and you go, Craig, you're this and that. Then I go, all right, thanks for those two labels or thanks for it, and then I go see, yeah, like there is there a like what do you think about all of this? What can improve? Because no system is a perfect system, but is it?
Do you get frustrated with any part of that? As like what is the average person that go, here's your diagnosis, see you later, or now you've got to go see these people will do that or follow these How does it work post diagnosis?
Yeah? Look, I feel like this is a bit of an area that's quite problematic at the moment. And thinking about adults I work with often they leave the office with the diagnosis, but really not having anything else in place at that stage. So unfortunately I don't have capacity to offer ongoing therapy myself. I may refer to them to someone else, but usually there's a pretty long waiting time before a person can go and start seeing psychologists.
Some people feel quite reluctant to start seeing someone from scratch. They feel like, well, I've already gone through this experience. Why do I have to start, you know, sharing everything, or like sharing all of this from scratch. Some people who lose the momentum. A lot of people kind of feel really inspired by their new knowledge and they feel like, oh,
I want to really incorporate this into my life. I want to review things and to reprocess all the things I know and like all the things that have happened to me and the way I do things. But that's kind of a momentum that they have following the assessment, and gradually these declines and I when I sometimes I get a chance to catch up with those people I've diagnosed, say in a year's time, and most of them still
haven't got any supports in place. Yeah, yeah, it's almost like with time, they just feel well, all right, that's now I know that I'm your divergent, but the actual change hasn't really happened. And this is really sad. I feel like it's an opportunity, or like a huge opportunity that's been missed.
And I think, like with any other in inverted commas condition or diagnosis, mental, emotional, physiological, it's not like one pill fits every problem, you know, And like we know it's pretty well known that statistically not everybody vibes or gets a positive outcome with talk therapy. Yeah, like some people it does not work for that's kind of we know that a lot of people it's pretty good, and
some people it's amazing. You know, it's trying to figure out, not only because I think one of the challenges is that when it comes to any post diagnosis intervention, there's still got to be nuanced.
There's still got to be individual kind.
Of awareness and care for the person, because what will work for patient A will not for patient B or C necessarily. So it's just like you and I, or we might get another lady who's your age, you know, very similar to you in terms of physical appearance and shape and size and all that stuff, and we feed
her a particular diet and your particular diet. We get two very different outcomes because you're not the same people with the same genetics, And therefore, where would be silly to expect the same outcome just because we've got the same uh you know, intervention, And so too with other It's like, oh, here's people with ten different illnesses. Let's give them all this one medication because they are all sick, and here is medicine. And when you're sick, you need medicine.
That obviously a silly concept. And then the thing is with you assessing people cognitively and emotionally and mentally. It's like, well, of course everybody needs not everybody needs something different, but a lot of people what will work will be something quite maybe out of the box. Like one of my friends went to talk therapy for a year, toughted out by the way, I've got lots of friends you go to therapy and love it everyone, so I'm not canning therapy.
But for him it just didn't work. And then it never surfed in his life, and he went away with a bunch of mates who dragged him on a surfing weekend and it was like it opened some door of joy in his.
Brain and he now.
So much so that he surfs. He lives works in Melbourne. He drives somewhere twice a week to surf, and sometimes it's at five o'clock at night and he's on the waves until eight or whatever. And like I've seen him, I've spoken with him. He's like, this has changed my life. And it's for him the you know, if not the answer, A big part of the answer for him was nature was waves. Was was just the ebb and flow of the water and the tide and the I don't know,
I don't know. I don't understand what happened in his brain or his mind. But he was like a he's just a transformed person. He's less anxious, he's less of an overthinker, he's more calm. It's like he cannot wait to get there. That's like he's medicine. But nobody's going to prescribe surfing.
You know what I mean.
Okay, you're anxious, right, you need to go to Phillip Island and surf.
You know, there's actually quite a lot of evidence showing that people with their digity thrive in nature. So having the kind of open green space it's really really helpful for the idgy brain. So really thinking beyond just the therapy, I think is very important. And I've been seeing people who found things like music therapy very helpful. For example, especially people who may not be so good, like you know, just verbal communication, they find that being able to express
themselves through art or music is like very helpful. And their official sport is another thing. Just like you say, like, that's really really essential. So usually that's something I would recommend to every person I diagnose with ADHD. Doing something that's active. It does make a huge difference in the way the person feels, the way their brain works. You're right, there are lots of different approaches the person kind of needs to consider when thinking about, well, how can I
make my life? I think the word better is a good way to use, but more satisfying.
Have you ever heard of sorry listeners?
When I'm in the middle of something, Anna, doctor Anna, I go down a rabbit hole for a week or two or three. I'm like, I'm all about this, and I'm reading that, and I'm listening to that, and I'm studying that, or I had a revelation and sadly.
From my audience they've got to go on. They don't have to. If they keep listening, they're going to go on a bit of a two or three week journey with me into this thing. Right. So have you heard of.
An author called, I'm sure you have, Eckhart Toll, kind of the spiritual teacher. Okay, okay, So he's a very famous spiritual teacher. He wrote a book called The Power of Now.
He's written a.
Bunch a New Earth and his anyway, he went on his own journey now, like like you, I'm kind of like I used to be quite religious, because that's what I grew up in. You know, I was trained and told and taught and programmed and manipulated to go, this is how life works. This is there's God, there's heaven, there's Hell, there's judgment, there's an eternal lake of fire, there's and.
This is how it works, not like this is how it might be.
No. So I wasn't taught how to think. I was taught what to think, right, So all that stuff. But I'm going to so can I read you something and tell me if this is completely weird? But this is like almost my summary so called The Power of Now. I've read it twice physically, and now I'm listening to it. But I haven't listened to it for like twenty years, and it keeps blowing my mind. And the first time I read it, actually I didn't finish it. I thought,
this is complete psychobabble, pseudo spiritual garbage. And then I read it about five years later and went, oh, this is brilliant, This is brilliant. How smart is he?
Right?
Obviously the book was the same and I was a bit different. Right, So I wrote this thing this morning. I want your thoughts on this. This is a little bit of a summary, like about a forty words summary of where I'm at in the book Identity with Mind. You have a mind, but you are not a mind. You have thoughts, but you are not a thought. You tell stories, but you are not a story. Your mind will get hijacked by fear, but you are not fear. It will replay the past and imagine the future, but
you live in neither. It will convince you that you're not enough too much. Both are stories, Neither are you. Your mind is a tool, a powerful, messy, creative, unreliable tool, but it is not your identity. You are the observer, the awareness the one who notices I like to think about the mind and me as separate entities.
What do you think about that?
It's interesting what you've just read. It's very much aligned with the kind of act acceptance and commitment therapy approach. I'm not sure if you're familiar with this.
Apro act actor.
Yes, exactly so. Kind of being detached, taking that detached stance from your thoughts, your feelings, and that really does help to observe what's happening for you, to observe your experience, to observe the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves from that more almost objective perspective. And I think that's an amazing skill to have, an amazing thing to remember and actually does some And I teach to both kids and adults,
especially those who are pouring to things like anxiety. I think that's something very helpful.
Now you've done very well. We're going to let you go very soon.
I said too, I said to doctor Anna, before we start, how long have you you got?
I don't want it to be too long.
I don't blame you experience.
Are you going? Okay?
Need to go along with the flow?
Okay?
Well, one thing I if I try to think, uh, you know, I try to have that theory of mind thing going on, even with a podcast, even talking to people who are not listening right now but will be in the future. I try and make it right now for me for them, And I try and think if I was listening to this, what would I want to know? And there's this left of center question I want to ask you, and that is where are you from? I think, like we can all hear your beautiful accent. People want
to go, where did she grow up? Where are you from? Yeah, what's the answer to that?
Yeah, my family comes from Russia. I came here when I was ten.
Wow.
Yes, I still do have the accent. And I yes, we speak Russian at home. My husband's also from a Russian background, So that's very hard for you to get rid of the accent.
But well, here's the thing.
Your English is perfect, but you have this beautiful accent over the top of it.
Yeah, did it? I don't know, is it?
Do you remember when you got here how long it took you to kind of adapt to the culture, And because the cadence of the way that Australians speak and the way that we kind of bend words and syllables and letters. It's not it's like I mean, but us Ausies we go, well, of course we speak English. But for any any other English speaking countries that come over here and they're like, it's kind of English.
It's a really interesting question. The thing is, I feel like being an immigrant actually is something that got in the way for me recognizing my new euro divergence earlier, because I have never fully adapted to the Australian culture and I was thinking, well, that's just because of my you know, because of my Russian background, yes, But then I realized, well, actually no, there's more to it.
Yeah, so what do you think now? Like what you take now?
So now I feel that it's not about the culture. It's not about the Russian or the Australian Culture's just about the way my brain works at certain kind of interactions, somewhat challenging for me and more effortful for me. And it's not to do with language. Your culture is just to do with kind of my less typical brain.
Do you know what I think? Like, I know when I turn up to do stuff and it's weird because I don't like, I really don't like people putting me on a pedestal or thinking that I'm smarter than anyone in the room. I might have some knowledge that you don't, but knowledge doesn't necessarily equal intelligence.
By the way, there are lots of knowledgeable.
People who are I was going to swear, but I won't because you're so polite, who are not that smart. And there are lots of really smart people who had a very limited or intelligent people who have very limited education. Traditionally, But when I when I talk to audiences and even on this show, I try to be not in a disingenuous way, but as open and real about my own bullshit and my own insecurities and my own gaps you know, and.
Talk to people about.
Well, of course I'm still insecure, and of course I still want your approval, and it's not as bad as it once was, and of course I'm periodically an overthinker, and of course all of these things. But if I wait till I get all of my metaphoric shit together before I help people, I'm never going to help anyone because I'm always a work in progress. I'm never there. I might improve or learn or grow or evolve and get better, but I still do dumb things. I still
get things wrong. I still make bad decisions, I still take actions that don't work. I still fail, depending on how we frame failure. But I think the fact that you go by the way I'm neurodivergent, I think that's a I think that's an asset.
I think that gives you. Yes, I'm a doctor of this.
And that, and yes, I know how to diagnose and treat people and work with people. But also by the way, I actually think that adds a real layer of credibility to people. And I would rather work with you than someone with all the other stuff the same, but without that, because I know you're going to get me because you're a bit like me, you know what I mean.
Yes, and I really hope that this is how people will kind of feel when they come to see me, being feeling that they have this opportunity to really be genuine with me and be understood because I share that experience. And yes, it did take a bit of courage kind of coming to this decision of speaking openly about this. As I said, I have been kind of contemplating with I should publicly if enough. It does make me feel
more vulnerable in a way. But on the other hand, I do feel like that's definitely the right decision to make, and it's just all about being genuine with myself and with the people I work with. Really, I almost felt like I was deceiving them, deceiving the people I work with by not opening up in terms of how I feel. Yeah, that my personal neurodivergence, although it previously hasn't been formalized in the way is now, but still I kind of had that, Yeah, that.
In a kind of understanding or knowing, Well, unless you're going to announce it on Channel nine News, it doesn't get much more public than this podcast. It's like that, it's definitely public now, So well done you. I have one, I think one last question. Who knows it could be too, But my last question for now is I feel like this is a bit of a cheesy question, but I want to know the answer anyway. What do people get wrong or misunderstand and about neurodivergence?
Lots of things. There's so much stigma unfortunately still existing about neurodivergence that even when I told my best friend who has known me since she was nine, that neurodiversions, she went, well, you don't look in your o divergent.
Yeah, that's what I thought that too.
The whole notional masking, I think lots of like even thinking about the Doosem criteria, So the criteria we use for diagnosers, it's all about the visible symptoms, it's all
about the visible behaviors. But there are people who are so good at masking and camouflaging their challenges that they experience, so they can perform really well, they can be very sizeable, they can communicate really really well, but it's a huge effort, and that's where the whole kind of autistic burnout comes into play, where the person may kind of be like functional a pizza, function really well and may perform really well in all sorts of situations, but then they experience
this period of extreme exhaustion, extreme loss of capacity, which may go on for days or even weeks or months for some. And so these kind of over lines on the observable features is I think that's something that a lot of people kind of do when they think about someone, whether someone is neurodivergent or not. And that's yeah, I think that's a big issue.
I wonder if I wonder if I'm on the spectrum, I wonder if you don't like I mean, I don't.
I really don't know, but like people think I'm an extrovert because I do this right. But the funny thing is, and I mean it's not like I'm a shy little wallflower, but I really like being by myself. Like I live by myself. I've lived by myself since I left school. So I get up by myself, go to bed by myself. You know, I haven't seen anyone today. It's one o eight. I saw a few people at the cafe, but yeah,
and I feel like I get people overload. If it's just that this is maybe you can help me, Like if I'm doing something meaningful like work, Like I'm doing an all day presentational workshop and I'm in the zone and I'm focused and i'm speaking and I'm answering questions and I'm working with people and I'm kind of taking us all on a.
Ride for the day. Blah blah blah.
I'm in it, but then I get home, I'm like, I feel like I've just run nine marathons. But when I'm in it, I'm fine. But when I'm out, like at a dinner, which I don't and it's not that dinner's bad or people that you know, but me sitting down with people for four hours are starting at six point thirty and leaving the restaurant at ten thirty. I cannot tell you how much I hate it. Like I
just I get physically exhausted. Firstly, I don't drink, so but everybody else normally drinks, so by an hour into the conversation, the conversations are stupid. I also only eat one meal, so everyone else will have, you know what, three or four different courses. And all of this is good, by the way. I'm not criticizing them. In fact, I wish sometimes I was more like that, and I could go there and have as much fun as they have.
I just don't, And so by eight o'clock I'm like, I'm looking for a way out, and it's you know, it's often I do not like meaning Oh I was going to say, meaningless conversations. So I have fun bullshit conversations with my mates where we're just talking garbage, but
that's somewhat therapeutic and funny. And then I like having meaningful conversations like this, but just where there's just this superficial it's almost it's almost like this performative crap where you're talking for twenty minutes about nothing.
Really, I'm like, I cannot wait to get out of it.
So I don't know, but yeah, I don't enjoy the stuff that a lot of people enjoy.
I don't at all.
And that's exactly how I experience things. I'm not making any connection thoughts over, but that's exactly how I experienced this. I really enjoy socializing, I love meaningful conversations, I love dip diving into different topics. I love partying in fact, but I get so drained afterwards. Yes, and sometimes like I may have host a party and really enjoy the party in the moment, but then we'll take me a few days to get out out of that burnout state.
And initially I was thinking, what's wrong with me? I was thinking, maybe it's my age, maybe it's me being you know, close to that perimenopausal stage, and all of those things can actually exaggerate the ADHD symptoms in the female in particular. But I've realized there's more to it. I realized that it is like that loss of capacity
where even just speaking becomes effortful, moving becomes effortful. So it's really like, I mean, we know that neurotypical people also experience burnout, but for a neurotypical person it's kind of usually linked to that the stress and the fatigue that they experience, so it's almost like the phone that's running out of battery, and once they get the rest they need, they're usually back to the more or less normal state, whereas the autistic burnout it's linked to that
conic conic misalignment with the environmental demands, so kind of demand additional demand, and that leads to those states where the person just really loses capacity to do the things they're quite capable of doing.
Yeah. Yeah.
And also like in certain environments, I'm happy to be up the front, but in normal social environments, I absolutely want to be at the back of the room. I don't want anyone to draw attention to me. I do not want to walk up. The amount of times where I've been at a function like a fiftieth or people go perhaps come and say something you're funny, I'm like, ah, I don't, like.
I do not want to. We've all heard enough from me. We're good. No, no, no, I hate.
That that stuff where yeah, just for the sake of saying something I would rather like. I'd like to go to whatever event, have some meaningful chats, talk to a few people, not sit up the back with a chip on my shoulder, but definitely not have any attention on me unless I'm doing my job and that's what my job requires. But other than that, none, Yes, So it is it is funny. There is a little bit of we do have something in common.
Hey, guess what. Guess what? You survived your first podcast?
Yeah? Go you. Hey, I feel like I've actually a chieved something pretty cool. So thank you for giving me this challenge, getting me through this challenge.
Do you know what for a first time? And you did great?
Well, you did great for anyone really, So it's it's very daunting because you don't know what's coming and you.
Don't like you kind of know.
I know what a podcast is, and I've heard Craig talk on the su or whatever.
You can do a bit of prep. But sitting on the other.
End of it, I'll tell you something that not many people know. I reckon, I've done ten to fifteen podcasts. Remember we've done well over two thousand. But where the person that the person that I was talking to quite smart, good communicators. They've got some interesting story, whether they've written a book or done a thing, or their career.
Or their whatever. And then I put them. Then we go live and I go, hey, we won blah blah blah.
And then the person becomes fifty percent Dummer straight away. And it's like the person that I was just chatting to has gone somewhere else. And we've had to restart many times, and a few I just couldn't put to air because so we didn't have to restart. You were good, you did great, and you know, now we have to get you back. So I appreciate you. Thank you for your time. You probably need to go and have a bit of a lie down. Now, do they brief, have a good talk to yourself.
Now do you want to yes?
Now what happens on podcasts is at the end, the host said says, is.
There anything you want to share?
Do you want to direct people towards anything, be that a book, a website, a social media page, anything, or not?
Really up to you.
That's a bit of a question. Look, there's just so much out the in terms of learning more about neuroda versions, which I think is such a fascinating thing. To learn about, but there's nothing specific I can recommend at the moment.
I really meant more your stuff. See, this is how fresh you are. This is a chance for you to promote you. It's not you promoting anyone else.
Yeah, not at the minute.
I know at the moment. Hopefully in the future I'll have something to publicly share with others. In fact, I would love to maybe publish some books about my personal experience. So I have lots of ideas, lots of things I'm hoping to pursue the future, But at the moment, I don't feel there's anything that's quite ready to be shared with others.
Well, you did share something amazing today, so we appreciate that. Thank you so much for your time, Thanks for being brave. Congratulations on ticking off your first podcast. You did a good job, doctor Anna. We appreciate you. We will say goodbye a fair so don't go away. I'll say goodbye the listeners and then we'll come back. So hey everyone, thanks for that. Appreciate you.
Hope you got something out of that, and we will see you next time.
Thanks Enna, Thanks Craig, who is a pleasure