I good a team. It's Harps and Bobby. Welcome to another installment the You Project. It's beautiful. It's beautiful, warm day here in Melbos. It's Thursday, but from tomorrow it turns cold. It seems like winter is in bound. What's the temperature over in San Diego, Robert?
I think maybe I haven't been outside for a little bit, but I think it's about fifteen degrees right now. Yeah, Well, we're.
On the We're heading towards the cool. You're heading towards the warm, although California is always recently warm. How have you been? What is up? What is new? How are you? How is the GLW the good Lady Wife? How is work? Give us a snapshot of you before we dive into today's topic without diving.
Into it in too much detail. Just got a lot of plates spinning right now. Mmm, so yeah, you just go.
Are you better with a small to do list or a big to do list? Are you happier? Do you perform better when there's a lot on that list or maybe somewhere between a lot and a little somewhere between? I think like it's not.
With this vast assortment of tasks to complete, what significant projects, like when my head's buried in something that requires a lot of creativity and focus and there's not a lot of uh, there's not a lot of disruption. I don't do very well when like like moving house and things like that. That is a massive distractor for me. But yeah, if everything everything's stable, when I'm doing things that I could focus, I could create, you know, I could kind
of like lose myself in that. That's where I thrive.
It's trying to It's funny because there's no particular model or no particular protocol or whatever that will suit everyone. You know, Like some people live in this place. They hate it. Some people love it. Some people do that job, even if it's same environment with the same boss, they don't dig it. It's not for them. Someone else it's
their happy place. And I think a lot, both internally and also out loud about this idea of life design and creating a life, the totality of all the bits and pieces of the craigjigs, or you know, all the Craigs life jigs, or all the bits and pieces that influence you know, my experiences and you know my productivity and my relationships and my finances and where I live and all of those things, and how there's no set formula. In fact, there's probably a different formula when you're twenty
five than when you're fifty, I guess. But I had two conversations yesterday, and I've had thousands over the years, but two that same essentially the same thing to happen to be too ladies. But it could have easily just as easily been two blokes, one on zoom, one face to face. And the thing was essentially, I've I everything that I have is nice. It's like it's okay, my life is not bad. I've got enough of this and enough of that. But in the mid but there's no
there's no joy, there's no kind of deep meaning. I don't feel like I really have a purpose. I'm not sure if I even want to live in the area that you know, all of these kind of life design thoughts and questions. And one lady said that, the other lady said, I, I don't love my job pays me quite well, I don't love it. I want to do something else, but I don't know what the something else is.
You know.
So the whole idea of like I think this is just my thought. I want your comment, Terry. I think a lot of people kind of live a version of groundhog Day in that they do a lot today of what they did yesterday, even if yesterday wasn't particularly productive or effective or joyful. You know, because we're in certain psychological, emotional, and behavioral grooves. We just do this this way because this is what we did the last two thousand days
of our lives. Sounds like a series. So then trying to find a level of awareness, self awareness, situational awareness, all the awarenesses in the middle of the groundhog danis of me and to think, all right, well, if I continue on my current trajectory, good or bad, what's my life going to be like when I'm you know, sixty or fifty five or fifty or whatever the case is for the individual, Like, if I keep doing what I'm doing effectively the way that I'm doing it, in the
place that I'm doing it, in the body that i'm doing it, in the relationship that I'm doing it, in the financials, you know, what's what's that going to look like? And does that make me happy or sad? So I wanted to talk about the nuts and bolts of zooming back a little bit into the macro of life design
and all the moving pieces. And before we get into it, everyone, I want to say, this is not a set protocol or plan, and we're just talking about the concept and Bobby what he's done and where he's been, and the same for me and the people that we've coached. So do you talk to people broadly about the creating a life that works for them.
All the time?
Big picture stuff.
All the time, And sometimes it's not big spectra. Sometimes it's something very focal, something aimed and in near future. But other times, you know it, it's more of a higher view, higher perspective. I wonder how much of what we get stuck in is based on our expectations. Where we're supposed to have this plan, we're supposed to know, and if I don't know, I feel stuck because what
does that mean? Like I assigned some meaning to that where And I think for a lot of people that works for other people that people that have had this conversation with and people quite close to me who I really love. You get the feeling almost that there's that they're operating on the principle should well, I should be here, I should be doing this and I should be doing
this in this order, in this timeline. And that's fine if it keeps you, if it keeps you structure, or if it's something that is intrinsically moving you or something that you intrinsically value. But what if it's not, And then if you're stuck and it's like like you're saying, ah, I'm doing the same things every day, but I don't have this sense of joy. Well, what would a sense of joy mean? Like, what would be different about life if you had this sense of joy? What is having
a sense of joy mean to you? And what is not having a sense of joy mean? Maybe it's about staying curious. I feel like the older I get, the more this value around curiosity shows up for me. And it's not that I'm not curious. I'm very curious. I think one of my highest values is love of learning,
which is driven by curiosity. But the value of curiosity and the willingness to explore and not have a very strong opinion or dogma even worse about what that exploration means or should mean, Like what are you interested in? What catches your attention? Because I think like when you're in momentum, how many times have you heard a story like this where I was going one direction and then you know, I just got this summer job, and I just got it because I needed the money, had nothing to do
with anything I was interested in. And then I met this other person in this field, and this event happened not planned at all, seemingly for the person on the other end of this story, random at the time, but that unlocked something, and then I went in that direction, and then I discovered this about myself. Have you heard that story, Craig?
Hmmm, yes?
What? What about? What?
But I understand, but what about someone who knows this is not the life I want to be in? How did they begin to figure out maybe what a do they want? And I guess curiosity is a big part of that. But then not even knowing which direction to step in, how do we perhaps find a bit of
clarity around that? And I understand all your thoughts around expectations and stuff, But like I know many people I'm sure you do, did do, I should say, who were doing a certain thing and life was a bit blah And then they opened a new door or moved into a new area of work or passion or religion or lifestyle. Or something, and they're like different people and it's not an act, and it's not for three weeks. It's like,
oh my god, you are you found your thing? You found your thing, and some people are going, I want to find a fucking thing because you know, I pay the bills, and but other than that, there's not a whole lot of I don't know. I don't feel fulfilled. I don't feel like I have a purpose. How do we begin to practically, you know, rather than staying in a situation that we don't love and trying to convince
ourselves we love it. Not that you were suggesting that, but how do we practically begin to get clarity around what might work for us, what direction we should what door we should open.
So, I mean, everybody's different, So I hesitate to prescribe because where you are in your life is different, your needs are different, just just your makeup of you being you is different. And then there's context. But a couple of things that we can extrapolate from the scenario that you're laying out is I suspect there's this thing out there for me. I'm frustrated because I don't know what this thing actually is. I want to have this thing.
I want to be that person. It's not like, hey, you know, I don't know what my thing is and I'm totally satisfied with that. I'm just doing I'm just doing my thing. I don't think there is a thing. No, this is something you want and something you value. So if there's something I value like this pen, okay, exactly the same thing as a life purpose. Yeah, but I go into my office tomorrow and I can't find it. I'm in the same situation. There's something I really value
and I don't know where it is. Logically, what would be the simplest recommendation anyone can make to me?
Either God, look for it or get a new one.
Yeah, maybe go look for it, like, go look for it, or go out and get another pen. And you know, see if that thing has equal value, so you got to go explore a little bit. So one maybe it's it's letting go of that attachment. I should know what that thing is, Like, what are you curious about? Yeah, when you're on social media, a lot of times adverts will pop up, and those adverts are really interesting, like pay attention because a lot of times those adverts correlate
with what you're searching for. So this week, as an example, I'm going to you with Amy, the two of us are going to a two day, all day public speaking skills development seminar. Well, why am I going to that in the middle of a move, in the middle of drowning in multiple projects at work, and in the middle of preparing for a pretty intense exam, because I'm interested in that shit? And how did they know that I
was interested in that? Because obviously I guess I was looking at pages and posts related to public speaking, related to performing, related to communication, and I was like, shit, why not. It's in my neighborhood. I could walk to this thing. So what pops up that you could test out, like take a class, go see a seminar, go visit something, do something that's different than what you normally do. So we say, like, it's like groundhog Day, Well what does
that mean to you? Right? Because even in Groundhog Day, like and I don't know, there's there's different interpretations of how long Bill Murray was actually in that day. Some of the interpretations were it wasn't thirty days, it was a long long time, it was like years. He did something vastly different every day It's like he tried, he experimented with some crazy shit until he discovered like what that pattern meant to him and what he needed to do to get out of it. So yeah, maybe try
a little bit of that. I mean, you know, don't go punching a guy named Ned in the face. That's probably rude. But maybe learn how to play the piano. Like, because if if you weren't in that Groundhog Day, what do you think you'd be doing? Because like, I don't know what I'm doing? Then why does it matter? But what type of life would you like to have? Pick somebody like who has that life? You're like, oh, I want to find that thing? Well, yeah, how can they
set a vicarious example? What are some of the skills that person has? Maybe maybe I'm wishing that I could be like Craig Hopper and do podcasts, you know, and then to go out and speak.
What about I said, don't do that? What about? What about the idea of breaking our life down into the different components? And we go and we start to do a bit of a reflection, self reflection, try to find some awareness and almost like a stock take, like where am I at? How things go on? And then as objective as we can be, which is not very But with that in mind, what's my body telling me? Right now? What's my body telling me? And am I happy with what it's telling me? Do I need to change? How
do I need to change? What do I need to do more of? What do I need to do less of? What's my marriage telling me? What's my partner telling me? How am I feeling about that? What am I doing well? Maybe not so well? What do I need from this? What can I interpret from just the objective data that I'm getting? Or then my career? What's my relationshipship with my career? What's the impact of my career on my mental,
emotional and nervous systems? Like how am I in terms of you know, I talk about learning is one of my key values and blah blah blah blah blah. What am I proactively doing in some kind of strategic way to keep learning, to keep using my brain, to build my brain muscles to make sure that as I head into my fifties, sixties and beyond, I'm still cognitively optimal for me? What am I doing financially? Am I always struggling? Like?
What needs you know, where we kind of go have a look at all of these different bits and pieces that make up my life, and then without self clothing or without you know, self sabotage or throwing yourself under the emotional and psychological bust, just go yeah, yeah I could do this better or that better.
You know.
So it's just an awareness thing. And but then am I prepared to do that work? Like there's so many people who want you know, they know they're not in shape the shape they want to be, whether or not that's relational or financial, or professional or physiological. Right, but then there's the year, But will I do the work? Because the work is long and painful and hard some of it anyway, So what.
About that overall idea of like a you know, like a live stock take or you know, a pause button and a checklist.
A couple of things that are pop it into my mind. First is what you probably don't want to do, which is take a look at all the dimensions of your life and try to improve all of them, tackle that all at once, because that can that can be overwhelming, and you know, it can also create a lot of anxiety, which creates stories that just not saying they're inaccurate but they're not necessarily the truth. Second thing is what's the
order in which you're tackling those dimensions. Where I would start is what dimension of your life are you absolutely doing the best at? Are you the most proud of? Because that speaks to self advocacy, confidence, and it speaks to creativity because you're starting with exploring an area that gives you life, that helps you discover straints, that helps you identify what is your blueprint for when you do
something well? So now you're more open, like the more you feel like if you start off at like, oh god, where is my life a mess? Like I'm great in my relationships, but I'm just about broke, I'm gonna focus on that, You're probably not going to have the resourcefulness, the creativity, and the resilience to really explore that and engage in constructive actions. So the first is where you the best. The second level is what is the most pervasive dimension of my life? So I'll give me an example.
Gallops Global Research points to the number one predictor and driver of well being both is workplace satisfaction. Why, well, it's not just that. So much of my identity for a lot of people is wrapped up in work. It's not that just so much of my time and my life is spent at work. But look at all of the other dimensions of well being that that supports. If I have high workplace satisfaction, I probably have a couple of relationships at that job that's rewarding. So that's another
dimension of well being right there. Yeah, I'm probably doing okay financially, so that supports financial wellbeing. Because I'm doing okay financially, I probably don't live in a neighborhood that I absolutely hate, so I have community wellbeing. So it's almost like that that rate limiting step. It's which area, which dimension in my life. If I were to elevate the level at which I engage or perform in it would have an ancillary impact on all the other areas.
And then it could be I think the third the third source of exploration, where do I feel I need the most help? So where am I really good at this two? What has the most pervasive impact on other dimensions of my life? Tackle that for a bet, and then okay, where could I use the most help? Where if I elevated this it would make a significant difference a year from.
Now, I love it. What about what about individually identifying for me, for you, for the listener? What is success? Because obviously success is a different thing for different people, right, and success might be seventeen different things for you could show up in a lot of different ways. Some people could go, I'm earning one thousand dollars a week. That's mind blowing. This is more money than I've ever made. This is incredible. And some people are like, what do
you mean a thousand dollars? How do you even live on that? Like that's subsistence, you know, that's like that, right, Or somebody else runs ten kilometers in fifty minutes and thinks they're a superstar, which, by the way, if you do that, well done, that's pretty good. And somebody else runs the same distance five minutes quicker, and they're flat and depressed because they expected to do forty you know. So it's like the experience of success is almost something
that we create based on our story of success. So you know, the idea of well, if I could, if I could just have more of this, or do less of that, or experience less of that, or experience more of that, then I will be good. So I think also getting clear on you know, the old, boring old what do I want and why do I want it? And why does it matter? And how do I get it? You know, or how do I create it? Because I think that a lot of us kind of almost adopt
the group think of successes stuff. Success is what you have and own and earn, and what you're driving, where you live, and what people think you and you know, which is saying none of those are bad, of course, But then you know lots of people. I know lots of people who've got all the stuff. They've got all the stuff, they got all the things. From the outside
looking in, you're like, wow, you are successful. If we're talking about what is the metric in our culture or our society or our media or social media, you're ticking all the boxes. But within that inner experience, not what people see, but what people don't see, Well, they're sad, they're lonely, they're disconnected, they're medicated for anxiety, depression, sleeplessness, and despite the appearance of success, they're miserable as fuck.
So I think it's kind of almost factoring in my inner world where I really live and my outer world where life happens.
I think the best definition that I've ever heard about success, The most resonant one was from Erl Natingal in The Stranger's Secret, where success is the progressive realization of a worthy goal or ideal. So I love that because the only one who can identify what is a worthy life giving, energizing goal or not even a goal, not even something that you arrive at or accomplish ideal, something that you're
always striving for, you never arriving at. So I love that thing, you know, always striving, never arriving Like that to me is success. And then all of those other things, the outcomes, those aren't success. That's a consequence of being successful, and that shows up in your inner world, in your outer world. So, because we talked about this recently, like you ask most people, oh, I just want to be really happy, Well, do you remember a time and you
know whether it's it's a fabricator embellish time. A lot of people have this time in their life where, based on how they shape their memories and interpret them, this was it. So do you remember a time in your life we knew the most happy? Somebody recalls it and it's not like, oh, it's when I had the nicest car. It's when my house was the biggest. A lot of times, it's when you were on the journey, you were on the way. It's not when you got somewhere, it's when
you were going somewhere. And it's almost that cliche story of like, oh, honey, you remember, do you remember we had that one room flat and we didn't even have furniture. We slept on our mattress on the ground. Oh we drank cheap wine at night. But man, were we happy. It's like stories like that, And maybe that's romanticizing it. Maybe you know you were actually miserable, maybe that mattress was lumpy, But I think there's a lot of truth to that.
Greig Dude, I'm so I so love that quote from Nightingale, and I think, like, essentially what that's saying is it's
about the journey, not the destination. And then I think practically about the people that I've worked with in like in small ways but also big ways, where like how many people you worked as a train for a long time, how many people were weighed in, you know, in your language, two hundred pounds and they wanted to be you know, one hundred and fifty pounds and then over time they ate different, Da da da, They did it all they got to one fifty pounds, and they were just as insecure,
just as unhappy. Like it didn't matter what where they got, they always wanted to be somewhere else. It's like I have a saying that it's like, no matter where we are, it's not where we want to be, you know, because we've always got this when I have, when I do, when I and that the amount of people that had what I call it destination disappointment is they get where
they thought they or they wanted to be. They created this external thing, a brand of business, a bank account, a look, a shape, a size, a weight, a reputation, a brand, or they created this thing that everyone could see, and then the thing that no one can see is that internal world. There wasn't a corresponding win. It's like, but I'm meant to feel great now because I did
the thing, and look at me. I look good and I have stuff and I can pay bills and people like me, and yeah, but nonetheless, my reality is anxiety or sadness or you know. But when you've got that focus, when you're working towards that thing and you're excited and you're curious, and you're making decisions, and you're growing and you're learning, and you're being challenged and you're fucking up and you're getting up and you're building resilience and insight
and skill. Like that's fucking great. But then to get there and go I'm finished now, I'm just going to sit here and be successful doesn't work.
That's really poignant. I feel like at some level, our layers or the pursuit of alignment and fulfillment of our values and avoidance of things that threaten those values. And a lot of times those patterns don't make sense if we don't know what those values are. And you're talking about something people have heard a thousand times, someone who pursued something they thought they should want for whatever reason
they thought they should have it. They got there and like, wait, this is so dissatisfying because they never understood what the attainment of that thing represents. And I think another story we hear, maybe not as often, but it also reflects the same points about the alignment or misalignment of our values is somebody has the worst something they think is the worst thing that could ever happen to them. And it turns out to be the best. So here's an
example of it. I used to work with this lady who was a leader in a major organization, and like I loved her. I just found her intellect, her sense of humor, her her sense of ethics to be exhilarating. Loved being around this person, loved working with her. And she was one of these people who early in her life, people who cared about her were very concerned she wasn't serious about a direction. She wasn't this disciplined, principled person.
She was someone who was very much stuck in doing her own things, her own patterns, and was a party girl. I'm not saying the same thing wrong with just going out there and partying, but her looking back, that's not a reflection of who she was proud of and who she wanted to be. And then she's with this guy. She gets pregnant and they're like, Okay, maybe we should get married. It's the day of her wedding. She shows up for her wedding, pregnant guy doesn't show up, stands
her up at the altar. So now in front of everybody, she stood up, loses the guy. He disappears she's pregnant. She thinks, this is the worst possible thing that could ever happen to me. I don't know how I'm going to support this kid. I don't know what my life is going to look like. Everything. I love everything, I enjoy everything on whit it's over now, and she has the baby, and they put the baby. She has a girl, They put her daughter on her ches.
Better have a happy ending, motherfucker, because right now I'm pretty sad.
Did did you Did you miss the part when I said I loved working with this person? Yeah, all those, all those qualities. She looks at her daughter and has this this realization that she is more in love with this thing than she ever thought she could love anything before. Wow. And she wants to nurture and she wants to cultivate and develop and shape this life more than anything. And so she starts focusing on her career. She starts excelling
in her career. She starts like this person had no business experience, starts buying houses, flipping houses like accumulating you know, a lot of wealth in the process, and just becomes this driven, resourceful, dynamic human being with a strong sense of purpose and a pretty clear compass, and it all happened because the worst thing she can imagine happened to her. But if that never happened to her, it would have never pulled the veil back on what is she truly
valued and wanted to be? So it comes down to values.
Also what is she capable of? Like she she tapped into this potential and power that maybe she might not have for a long time if ever, because she was in a situation where you can't you can't opt out, like you can't go, oh, I don't want to be a single pregnant or you know, woman at the altar, or don't I don't want to be a single mum. And it's like, well you are. You are a single mum and this is your reality and it won't change. And she went all right, well I better figure it out.
Whereas had there been a different situation or scenario, yeah, maybe that would have even though it would have seemed better in the moment, maybe it would have been worse over time.
And what's interesting is what did not happen. Because this was a person who everyone around her thought she was undisciplined, unmotivated, directionless, selfish, like all of these things and it's not like she decided I'm gonna get my shit together. It's not like, you know, she listened to a podcast or read a book, or went to a course, you know, or pulled herself up by her own bootstraps. She was confronted with a value system that was critical to her that she wasn't
able to identify beforehand. And then all of these attributes that we associate and that we would name as being critical to quote unquote success, they spontaneously showed up. Maybe not that day. I don't think she like took the kid home and like flipped the house by the end of the week. But it happened right then and there in that hospital. And it's extremely impressive, and it's so encouraging because you want that for people, right, Like, is that such a great story? Yeah?
I love that. But also what it tells us is when we're backed into a corner, really backed into a corner, either literally or we think we're backed into a corner, we can do some amazing shit. Like you said, it's not like she did a course. It's not like she had, you know, any particular resources or help in a massive way, perhaps, but she was just found herself in a situation where she was going to sink or swim, and she found
a way. And it's like, that's it's amazing how much we see people do and what they're capable of when there's a version of a catastrophe or a level of a catastrophe in their life where they just need to adapt and adjust and just crack on and figure it out, because the alternative is capitulation.
Yeah, and I agree with you, I just I just want to point out one distinction. I'm not saying that when you're in that situation, this is what is expected or works for everyone, because sometimes people are spread so thin and they are just hanging on. So Amy directed a documentary. It was an Emmy Emmy Award winning documentary about soldiers who had come back, you know, from combat veterans and they were struggling with PTSD and how hard that was. And somebody in that situation gets into a
situation where the backs up against the wall. And these are some of the toughest, most resilient, brave, you know, courageous people in our society, and that situation breaks them, yes, rather than galvanizes them or propels them. And it's not because of a moral failing. And it's definitely not because they're a weak person. Like these people represent the opposite of weakness in our society. So I'm not saying that that's the expectation that if your backs up against the wall,
you should do that. What I am saying, I think you're saying as well, is when you identify what you value and there is an extraordinary circumstance that moves you out of your comfort zone, it disrupts the status quo to whereas there is an urgency meeting a sense of clarity around your value system that could be that could be spectacular in ways that you can amaze yourself and reinvent yourself and discover things about yourself that probably will always there.
Yeah, I totally agree, And I wasn't suggesting. Maybe it sounded like it, but I yeah, I know you were it.
It didn't sound like you were. I just wanted to make sure that that's not what I was saying.
Yeah, I mean, there's so many people that that go through a hard problem and that hard problem becomes a bigger problem mentally and emotionally for a while. And that's
totally understandable too. But but I think often, you know, sometimes to often, I guess, is that we learn and grow through the ship that we didn't actually want, you know, I know for me in business, you know, in financial stuff, in uh, social experience as being the fatterest skid at school and all of that ship that wasn't that great or pleasant. It actually for me was a fuel source and it didn't always work out great and it wasn't
always pleasant. But I think a lot of my especially early development and understanding and awareness and insight came from being in hard things and then figuring out, what do I do with these hard things? What do I do with these experiences? How do I learn from this? And yeah, I had this And this is digressing a bit, but following on from what I just said, when I was that fat kid who lost all the weight, the biggest AHA moment for me wasn't the weight or that I
was now lean. It was that I started to understand my potential because I just didn't think highly of me or my ability or skill or what was possible for me. I made such a small opinion of myself and what was possible, and then I did this thing that honestly was kind of fucking impressive. I mean I didn't have a coach, I didn't have a dietitian, I didn't have
a trainer, I didn't have anything. I mean it was nineteen and tier seven, right, so that you know, there's no internet, there's no and I just figured it out. And my plan, my literal food plan, was whatever I normally eat, I'm eating half. And that was what I
did for months and months. Like I didn't go, oh, there's good fats and bad fats and fucking proteins and carbs and like I'm like ah, I just went, well, I normally have two of these cheese, ham and tomato sandwiches or three, I'll have one or one and a half. And that's what I did. I normally drink this much milk. I'll have half that milk. And that was my plan. And it obviously when you reduce your calories by fifty percent,
shit starts to happen. And then you start to run at the same time, or build up to running, starting at walking, jogging, bloody whatever. Yeah, and then and that all that was great, But at the end, I went, oh, I'm not shit, And that was like a good personal moment. I went, I'm not shit because I thought I was shit. You know. So even that thing of understanding what is possible for us and then believing it, that's a fucking superpower.
That's interesting. That reminds me of something one of the ways I think you can get clearer on what's resonant feeling someone's like, oh, I want that thing when you're out there experimenting in the world. You know, I've experimented with like comedy classes, improv classes, acting classes, finger painting and drinking wine classes, and you know, I think I was more into the wine than the finger painting and all this stuff, just to see what is it that
you're doing that you're getting better at. To where self efficacy, right, you're a belief in your ability to successfully do this thing influences self esteem, so as I feel, because they're different things and they're not interconnected all the time. Efficacy is how I feel about my ability in a certain area. Self esteem is how I feel about myself in general. So when I was going ahead and I was taking
improv classes, I found it very difficult. And whether that is because I'm a bit thick or my instructor was very tough. As I started to improve my self esteem improved. I was like, I like the fact that I'm getting better at this to where the painting class I could have gotten so good that I could have produced Da Vinci. Now, of course that would never happen. I don't think I even got good enough to where anyone can even make
out what I was trying to paint. But no matter how good I would get, it wouldn't improve my self esteem. Not because I don't like appreciate art. I do all forms of art, I personally don't value being good at that type of art. So my self efficacy would improve,
but not my self esteem. Pay attention to both. So it's like, as you started to get more confident and shape this belief and your ability to take steps that had an impact on your body, and you started feeling like, oh fuck, I can do this, and that elevated your self esteem. That's a that's a clue.
Yes, yeah, yeah, I remember that. Yeah, that moment in time for me was transformative because I just for the first time started to challenge my own thinking and realize that my thinking could be the problem or part of the problem. And then, you know, I didn't know what the fuck metacognition was but that's the road I was going down at a young age. I was just thinking because I literally thought, Oh, I wonder what else I could do? Do you know what I mean? Because I
never thought I could do that. I never thought I could be the fit, lean, healthy kid. And not only fit, lean and healthy, but you know the kid that went from being picked last for teams to being picked early, like in the first few and playing, you know, playing in the school football team and you know, representing and running at fucking carnivals and yeah, like all of us,
and well that's good and they're nice little feathers. But then you go, ah, you know, and that's kind of and I think I can't speak for you, but I think most people suffer from low self esteem, if not always at some stage. Not everyone, of course, and a shout out to the sociopaths, but like I've always been, you know, first time I went to UNI, I was thirty six, I'm like, ah, fuck, this is terre. What have I done? I'm the dumbest data And then you and I wasn't you know. I just felt like a
fraud and I was. And then when I started, you know, my PhD and all that, it's like, oh my god, this is I had no idea. I had no idea what I was getting into. And then for the first three months, I was trying to figure out how I could get out of it with minimal public damage because I was so embarrassed of my own inability, you know.
But then you go, oh, well, I'm fucking here, like learn like learn the language, understand what research is, Understand how to design research and do research and interpret the data and write papers, and learn that fucking language that everyone speaks here that is like you know, German, Russian and bloody Swedish altogether. Yeah, but it's like, oh you do, and then you go, okay, so I can become different or I can do things that I previously didn't think
I could do, and leaving the ego aside. But it's like, oh, like, it's just your self awareness of your possibilities expanse.
You know, there's so many lessons as I'm listening to you tell that story, and you know, can I unpack them a little bit? There's not just your willingness to explore. But let's take a look at the PhD for a second. You didn't go out and get your PhD in twelfth century Spanish architecture. Yeah, I'm sure it's fascinating, but you didn't do that. You got it in an area of
behavior change, Right, there's a neuroscientific element. So what is it that you engage in and you're curious enough about it to where you want to learn more about it? It not like you have to not like, Okay, I've got this course. I have to go through it because it's on cybersecurity and my company is mandating it. But you know, left to my own devices, I wouldn't be like searching the internet or going on Amazon looking for
books on cybersecurity. Like, what is it that when you experience it, it not only elevates your self efficacy and impacts your self esteem, but it pulls you toward it. Like a kid who's really into dinosaurs and they'll devour any website, any YouTube video, any book about dinosaurs. What's the adult equivalent of dinosaurs for you? Maybe it is dinosaur.
Still great, because that's a you found that thing. That's what I thought, Like like Charles Baudelaire the eighteenth century Essays said, when you talked about get drunk, this is the great imperative if you do not want to feel time, fartle bruise upon your shoulders, crushing you into the earth. Get drunk and stay that way. But he wasn't talking about alcoholism. He said, on what you ask on wine, poetry,
virtue doesn't matter. Just get drunk. So when you find something that's intoxicating and you can't wait to get the very next taste of it, I think that's a clue. Another clue in your story is like, after you learned that you could change your body, no matter where you're starting from, if there were certain things you did, and you did them consistently, the fruits of that effort which start to show up undeniably in a physical change right in front of your eyes. You went out and you started,
you started a gym chain. What is it that you're experiencing that you want everyone to have? Earlier today, after I got back from the gym, I had a rice bowl and it was really good. I liked that rice bowl. I was really hungry, so I could say I loved it. Do I want everybody in the world to have a rice bowl more than anything? No, I'm kind of indifferent to it. I liked it, But you wanted everyone to have what you had, and when I was a deformed looking kid grown up in Brooklyn and I went to
the gym and it changed my life. We went on the same path because I was like, it's not enough that I experienced this. I want everyone to have what I have and benefit from it as profoundly as I'm benefiting from it. So what do you want to share with others? As a matter of fact, you can't help but share it with others. That's a clue. So there's all these experimental pathways that kind of tell you what that thing is. Going back to that person, it was like, I don't have a thing, but I want a thing.
You've got a thing, but you've got to look for it. Just like if you want to find anything in the dark, you got to turn on a light and cast that light around the room a little bit. Until you do that, you turn on that light and you look around, you've
got no chance of finding anything. I remember one night I was I was on I was being interviewed on the BBC radio and Paul Ross, the interviewer, had asked me, well, when you're overcoming a lot of stuff in your life, and you know, how do you like, how do you go out and do that. How do you take on a path that's more rewarding and painful. I'm paraphrasing that question, and what I said was, well, look at other people and where they might be going through something similar. Where
is it that you want to alleviate? So it's not like one path is I want everyone to have what I have. What do you not want anyone to have that you've had or experienced? That's another clue. Yeah, And I think that's a powerful one because that detaches from like all the stories about well I don't do this, I'm not that. No, it's not you, it's them. But what you want from them or what you don't want them to experience could kind of be a hint at what you truly value.
Yes, yes, I guess so many little points along the way in my life and my childhood, and that it's what I when I don't know if I could even articulate articulate it this way when I was a kid, but I got to the point where I realized what was holding me back was not actually ability or potential or capacity, but rather what I thought about those three things. It's what I thought about my potential. I thought I was dumb. It turns out I'm not dumb, not a genius,
not dumb. I thought I had the worst genetics in
the world. Turns out, don't you know, not the best, but not the worst, right, And then realizing that I could, through thought and conscious effort and commitment and a willingness to endure pain, be that mental emotional whatever, I could create not just change, but like fucking massive change where my life, the day to day experience of my life changed a lot when I essentially lost a third of my body weight and socially and emotionally and practically and
mentally and physically and even scholastically, and you know, it's like, oh oh, and not that dropping weight is the global solution to everything, of course, or me. So much of my internal shit was tied into the fact that I was the fattest kid at my school, and my name at school was Jumbo, a direct reference to how fat I was. And it's pretty hard to not just like when that is your identity to people, when that is your label. And by the way, I'm not blaming anyone.
I'm not mad at anyone at all. I'm just this is my story. When your label is Jumbo, well, it's hard to and you know, hundreds of people call you that because that is your name. There it's hard to not see yourself in a you know, in a poor lights and or as the fat guy, or as the guy that's not particularly attractive or socially desirable or doesn't fit in or or fill in the boxes. And then so when I started to do this thing, I told no one. I didn't even tell my parents, I didn't
tell my best mate. I just started running and I went, I'm just going to I'm just going to do this thing. And I went well, and I just like, I was so motivated through a bad experience I'd had, so motivated it got to the point where my motivation and inspiration and you know kind of discipline as self control pretty much became an obsession. So it's funny how the good thing can become the bad thing dependent on the dose
and the mindset. Yeah, you know, so and you went and you went through not that it's comparison, but you went through fucking way worse. So you know, it's just but I think like if even like you and me as kids, I think we're not looking for sympathy anyone
at all. But My point is that if if uninformed, uneducated, unknowing kids who have a sense of knowing, maybe belief maybe below, but if we can figure out because you you know, even as seven year olds, six year olds in your case, probably you know, we're constantly trying to navigate a world that's kind of confusing and potentially terrifying, and we're trying to figure out how to survive and thrive and how to be safe. And so you know, one of mine was, just be the fat, happy kid.
Just be Jumbo, the fucking hilarious, fucking clown.
Just be that guy.
Because everyone loves a clown. So be the clown. Be the disruptive clown if you need to be, but be the fucking clown so their attention is drawn to the clown, not the fat stomach.
Totally understand, Totally understand.
I don't know how we got here from there, I feel like we goss.
But anyway, now, because we started talking about identifying your values and being willing to play and step out an experiment and be detached from how it should go or what should happen as a result of it, just see what you learn, see what resonates. I think all of these stories kind of encapsulate powerful lessons, like I know in my transformation, when I got into jeril, it changed my relationship with pain. You know you talked about pain
early in life. Pain caused me a lot of suffering, whether it was emotional, psychological, physical pain, because there was no autonomy. I wasn't choosing it, there was no control. I couldn't help it right, couldn't change it, avoid it, lessen it. And then when I got into exercise, pain
became exhilarating for me. Pain became my favorite thing in the world because I could choose it, I could regulate it, and I had the miscan at that point that the more pain I was in, the further I was moving towards where I wanted to be and who I wanted.
But come, I mean, we all had that insane person in the gym, insane mentor there was this guy Oscar and I used to train with him in his basement and like he would make you vomit from one never ending, stupidly intense set of squats and then you just lay on the ground. And I remember, I remember the once I was laying on the ground, I was watching smoke come off of my head and I couldn't even get up off the floor, and his mother came down and saw me and just didn't react. I thought, Okay, this
is probably a normal occurrence. So he had that type of training. And I remember that I could not walk for several days after that. Yeah, not well, And I remember how good that felt. I was like, I want to feel like this all the time, which is insane for someone who's not it, because it gave me such a locus of control. I mean to the point where, like we've discussed this, some of my really debilitating injuries as an older adult are completely unnecessary and I know better.
But it's that connection to that pain, because I think when pain has meaning behind it and there's there's a direction to it, it doesn't induce suffering. I think it can be transformative and I think it can be actually quite enjoyable. And that that is the definition of passion. Bill, I want to find my passion. Well, your passion is what it is that you're willing to suffer for. Yeah, you know, it's not about this exuberance and this excitement. It's about I would suffer for this. I think that's
that's also a great list. Mistest for what your values might be.
Yeah, it's complicated because on a level, people are hardwired for instant gratification, pain avoidance, risk avoidance, you know, blah blah blah. But also we know that, you know, it's in that. For me, all of the where I've grown and learned and evolved and built the most resilience consistently has been when I was doing something that was somewhere between a bit hard and fucking horrible. And you're like, ah,
it's just it's like, you can't. You know this old anecdote, but you can't go to the gym and build a big, strong, functional, amazing body by training at three out of ten, or by avoiding the work, or by taking the safest, least painful option. You can't. It's like strength, literal physical strength and mental emotional strength is a direct byproduct of navigating painful thing. It's navigating stress, working against resistance, stimulating your body, your brain, et cetera in a way that it needs
to adapt to survive and thrive. So we literally subject ourselves to this thing that ain't pleasant to create an outcome that is a positive for us. And that's the I mean, there's no way around that nobody has ever in the history of humanity sat on the couch and gotten an amazing big, functional, strong, or healthy or trim or sexy body by not working out or not exercising or not moving.
You've clearly never seen what I do on my couch.
Yeah, that's good, you're funny. All right, we're being to wind up. We've been here forever.
Well, I do you want to say just another disclaimer? Yes, I'm not saying that you need a ten out of ten like all out effort every time, because sometimes that can be especially when it comes to exercise, that could be more counterproductive than not. Like sometimes you know it is a five out of ten, sometimes it's nine out of ten. Now, what are you willing to intelligently keep showing up for? It's that consistency, just through that oup.
The self help Pantidote is Bobby's I'll do it. I'll do it for him. Self Help Pantidot is Bobby's podcast. Is that still in a holding pattern at the moment?
Yeah, yeah, I'll be once once I'm done relocating and getting past all my exams. Sometime around mid May, I will be launching another season of.
That Get the Up but a coup. Well, he can be heard here every week. So there's that, There's Robert Capuccio dot com. There's that, And very soon he's going to be living in the middle of the wilderness and I am sure he would love guests, So stand by for that address that'll be forthcoming.
Thanks Bunny, good talking. He as always see you, buddy,