I get a champions, it's Jumbo. It's doctor Lilly, and it's doctor Tiffany Cook over there at her clinic. She's operating on people. And now before we get underway, I got to tell you this, said this yesterday. Melissa will punch me in the face if I don't, so will doctor Denise. I'm running and when I say I not really Melissa, she's the actual engine and Dr Denise and I'm just the ring in. We are running a program called the Reset Program, which is a weekend in June
June twelve, thirteen fourteen. Kick off Friday night at about seven, but you can get there whenever you want. Finish Sunday about.
Four.
So that's where the event is at the Mantra in Milula bar So Sunshine Coast. Get you up, butter Cup. You're welcome. You can thank me when you come. And the beach is about fifty meters from where we are gathering, so if you borded me, you can go swim in the ocean and come back. If you don't know Denise, Doctor Denise faness Is she's an next sized physiologist. She's
a nutritionist, she's a geneticist, she's a researcher. She's written heaps of stuff, she presents all over the world and is I think super highly regarded in the genetic slash epigenetic space. Well, I don't think. I know. She's presented at the U Project conference. She blew everyone away. She's a great teacher, great present, a lot of knowledge, and quite atypically for an absolute real deal scientist, hilarious and cheeky and funny, unlike doctor Lillian anyway. So no, I'm
just kidding, see what I did there in a humor. No, she's also a cac as well, So Denise and I. If you want to find out about that, go to the website Craig Huper dot net. I should know. It's not net, isn't it.
Yes, it's not net.
Thanks, I don't know. I don't go there. I've heard about it. Craig Carba dot net and giddy Up butter Cups. It's all about optimizing you get the most out of your genetics and your mind and your brain and your body and your time and your resources and your job and your aspirations and so it's all about kind of, if not human optimization, human improvement and growth. So it's going to be a fun weekend. I love these I very much look forward to it, and also lots of
social time. So you might want to edit a chicken wrap with me. You and I might eat a chicken wrap looking at the surf and talk about the meaning of life. So there's that that's worth a ticket. Just that add over, Hi, Doc, Sorry Tiff, did I forget something?
Oh? Yeah, The question that Lillian and I are worth waiting to have answered based on our free podcast Dantor, was is there a great Mexican restaurant near the venue?
I don't know. I don't know. We were talking about that. Okay, so we were talking about I don't know what we're talking about. Tell everyone where your favorite Mexican restaurant is, the.
Lilian in Australia, the best place it's called it's called the Mexican and it's in Port Douglas and it's really, really, really good.
Are you sponsored by them?
I really they should pay me because I've told so many people and a lot of people like go to Port Douglas from time to time, and every time I hear the word Port Douglas, I'm like, you have to go to this place, and they go and they agree, So I haven't made the money. Yeah, I discovered like a year and a half, no, two years ago. So yeah, there you go.
So your friends to send doctor Lilian some dough the Mexican or I tell you what you can do. Just give her an unlimited kind of account where she can whatever she wants when she comes up, knowing it will probably only be ones every three years. So I think you're safe. If you had to pick a cuisine from any culture, uh, burgers and chips and steak, not oussy no no, no, Like, I mean it could be you know, you could go whatever, but what if you could only go to one for the next three months, not dying
there every night? But you know, like what is your top of your list? Which doesn't mean you don't love others as well.
But.
I would say I lean more to Tie. But I love Japanese, real good Japanese restaurants, mate, like chocolate butter in the city.
They're good.
Yeah.
Well I usually asked that question too, but I say, like, if you had to pick three cuisines to have for the rest of your life, what would you pick?
Well, that's good, Yeah, I definitely have Tie would be in there. Japanese as well. Like I love Italian food, but it doesn't love me like I love it, Like I love pasta. I love tordolini, ravioli with like even straight all bowl sauce, right, But when I eat pasta it fucks with me for so And I grew up eating pasta because I was fucking thrived on it. Yeah, fat little pasta eating machine.
But I love Italian. I mean, Italian would be like my number one mm. But it's not like Italian's much more than pasta and pizza though, Like you could actually do a carb free Italian cuisine if you wanted to, Like there, you know they do amazing muscles and seafood and all sorts of stuff like that. Yeah, that was a great sound, Craig.
Muscle Fuck how ironic that I hate muscles? How ironic?
Are you sure you hate muscles?
Because I thought it's so sure to me? Fish is just steky stuff.
Oh you don't like seafood at all?
Not much? Like like what fill its of something that don't smell all fishy? I know, I'm like a fucking fussy eight year old.
I no cane though you've got a nose on you like no one. I mean, well, it's like, haensive smell.
Are you talking about the quality of smell or the fucking magnitude of my proboscus? Started raining the other day, four people came and stood under it. So you know that was do you mind if we just shelter under your eyes? I'm like, yeah, whatever, So that was discouraging, but you get that, but I didn't want to ask you, and everyone's tuning out. Sorry. I have had Mexican only
a few times and I really liked it. And there's a Mexican joint near my house, like literally adi meters, but I don't know what to order because I don't know, like, I don't like, is the hard shell? Is that a taco? I know, everyone's like, how stupid are you? I just they do really okay.
So I would if you were a first time or at a Mexican place, and I know the place that you're talking about, and there's a couple on our street that are Mexican. Start with tacos. They're they're soft and hard tacos.
Soft soft, like I don't like it to be like a corn ship.
Yeah, no, you want the soft tacos, and that's normally what they would have at the restaurant you're talking about it soft tacos and just like afferent, like three different versions of it because they have different different kinds of meat like pork wanda beef one of.
Is it sham is beif like slices, or is it mince beef?
It's not neither. It's usually like a like it could be a brisketty type of beef or like a slow cooked beef. Or it's like if you go to Taco Bill, it'll be mint, it'll be mince and corn hard shells, right, But if you go to like a a nicer Mexican place, it won't. It'll be nicer, nicer.
Present by doctor Lilly and she thinks bills is ship. I'm sorry, Oh my god.
It's typical, like it's typically what you would expect it in Mexican place, but it's not like the nicer version of it.
Are you good? Cooked up?
I can cook. I don't enjoy cooking.
Ah, that's very interesting.
Yeah, I'm not.
I prefer to what happens to you, what happened, sorry, what happens at your joint? Every night?
My husband cooks, Oh my god, yeah, he loves it and he cooks for us the time.
Wow, does he want a boyfriend? If you want, just check it out. Tell him I'll spin him on the couch and we can watch the footy.
Sorry, he's all mine?
Yeah what ifs? I'm not good at relationships anyway. So that was a pure hypothetical. Should we talk about that, Craig, No, No, don't fucking psycho me.
I don't just like the analysis.
You know that somebody said yesterday, for the one million time in my life, you've got commitment issues, and I went yes. Next it's like, well yeah, and they're like that was that was meant to be some revelation to me from them? Yeah, that's like saying you've got quite a big nose.
Yep.
Anyway, So we were going to talk today, not about Mexican food or flying into state to get it or spooning your husband on the couch. We're going to talk. We talk about OCD and anxiety. It seems to me maybe it's just the people that I insect with or the social media that comes across my attention is anxiety. Let's start with anxiety. And I know there's no in inverted commas solution, as in, here's what everyone should do. But it's kind of a it's an in to section
of different things. So what do we call like the what's the clinical name for one of a better term of extreme anxiety? Like if somebody suffers from anxiety daily and it impacts their life consistently in a negative way, what do we call that?
So I divide it into three sections, So we have functional anxiety. Right, So functional anxiety meaning like we all experience anxiety because it's a natural mechanism of our bodies and minds that signals a threat or a potential problem, and it activates our bodies to protect us. That's functional anxiety. If it's functioning for you and helping you, right, helping you protect yourself or prepare or plan or problem solve, then there's dysfunctional anxiety.
Right.
Dysfunctional anxiety is when a number of things could be happening. So one is, you're getting the alarm bell but there's no actual threat, so it's signaling a threat that is either imagined or exaggerated in some way. It could also be that it's activating your body in a way that isn't particularly helpful or productive or necessary. Right, And then the other thing is that it could motivate you to
respond in an unhelpful or unhealthy or ineffective way. So if it's functional, you know, it activates fight or flight, and then you're using either fight or flight or freeze in a way that's actually helpful. Dysfunctional anxiety would be it's alerting you and you have the fight or flight and it's motivating you, but you're responding in a way that isn't going to be particularly helpful. And that might be a whole range of.
Things before we get to number three, just so I can get clear in my head. So if we're responding in a way which is inconsistent with or inappropriate for the actual threat, Like there may be no threat, but we think there's a threat, right, yeah, yeah, And so we respond to our version of reality, which are something bad's going to happen, this is terrible, I'm in danger, whatever it is. The objective reality of the situation or the context is no, that's not true, Harps, You're not
in danger. There's no immediate problem, there's nothing impending that's going to derail you or whatever. Right, So on a level, we create the anxiety, not the situation, context or circumstance or alleged problem, because there isn't one in this version, so we are. So when people go, oh, that makes me anxious, sometimes the truth is I make me anxious. Yeah.
It's like when the you know, the fire alarm goes off in your house but there's no fire, yeah, right, and it's like and you know it's it's a big alarm, so it's jarring. Yeah, it activates you and then you're looking around there's no smoke and nothing, and it's just super annoying and you have to find a way of like getting the brew mountain and turning it off. Right. So if you don't have the insight into the fact that there's no fire, yeah, that's a problem that's dysfunctional.
You if you know that there's no fire, but you can't manage the activation, yes, right, Or and you can't do the response that's going to be helpful, which is just turn the alarm off. Yes, then that's a problem that's dysfunctional. Yes, now that happens. Sorry you want to go that's all right?
No, sorry, you have a gap and then I talk and then that's my dad everyone, And yes, you don't need to send me another email. I can help. I know, I interrupt, I got it loud and clear. I don't mean to just get excited.
I don't know. It's all good.
That reminds me of that very I don't know if it's finmous it's monally famous, but that al sign don't believe everything you think.
Oh, yeah, that, I mean, that's one of the main issues. Like you said before, it's not it's not always the situation. It's sometimes what's happening internally, yes, and our thoughts. I mean, the foundation of modern therapy, you know, for a lot of the therapies that you know we use in a psychological sense, is that your thoughts influence your feelings and behaviors. So it isn't always the situation. It's how you've interpreted the situation, how you perceive the situation, your beliefs about
the situation that can lead to dysfunctional responses. Whether it's the finn feeling wise, thinking wise, behavior wise.
Do you think it's the emotion or the thought that comes first?
Yeah, that's that is like a that's a very contentious issue, and it doesn't need to be because I think the answer is both. I think both can come first. If you hear like a lot of people will notice the emotion first. So a lot of people say, I just felt like, I don't know, you know, the emotion came and then you know, everything else came after that. And that may be true, or it could also be that people aren't as mindful of what their thoughts are, so
they're not noticing the thoughts, they're noticing the feeling. But I don't think there's like one answer. I think that like, it's very possible for there to be an automatic thought that leads to feelings and behaviors and more thoughts, and there definitely can be an automatic emotion or like even physiological response that happens first, and then everything ensues after that as well. But no matter what comes first, we still interpreting that. So it's and that interpretation is very powerful.
How you interpret that, whatever the first thing is is potentially going to influence you know, the rest.
And I wouldn't imagine as a clinician, which you are, Dr Lillian is a clinical psyche. Did I get that right? I didn't fuck that right? No, that's right, because let's say in this hypothetical, I I'm on stage and I'm doing a gig, and in the gig, I don't know this, but everyone's kind of having an okay time. They're somewhere between this is not bad and this is really interesting.
But in my moment up on stage, my insecurity raises its ugly head and my shit self esteem and my childhood bullshit, and and my story is, oh, they fucking hate me, they hate this, But the truth is not that. Yeah, my thought is, oh, they don't like me. I'm never going to get another gig with this company. Blah blah blah. I'm not doing a good job filling the black right. Then the emotion around that is fear, is whatever apprehension, maybe even anger at myself that I didn't fucking prepare better.
And then the physiology off the back of that is all the things we talk about all the time, heart rate, respiration, stress, stress or moment, sympathetic nervous system, all that stuff. And so it's like this multifactorial thing. It's like this convergence of three systems, which is really one system. It's like, you know, mind body emotions for one of the better. It's like one collaborative if that's the right word, but
one intersecting system where everything kind of affects everything. Like you can't get really scared and your heart rate not go up. You can't be fearful and not produce you know, stress hormones, right, you can't. So it's like, yeah, this is a problem of the mind and everything else. So it's understanding the physical consequences of the stepping off point, which could be emotion or mind according to you, which
I agree with. But then that also like I was talking to somebody yesterday who just a person.
I know.
I don't want to give anything away, but this person essentially had like a lot of like a big response to something like a uh, you know, a real emotional and psychological crisis a few months ago, and they're coming out of that slowly. But said to me yesterday, I don't even know why, but I feel so anxious like that, and they're not. There's not something they're particularly worried about.
It's like, so the anxiety exists without a even some focus of what's care, you know, It's like it can almost exist in the body as an experience devoid of reason or or you know.
Sometimes yeah, yeah, I don't.
Even know why I feel like this, but I'm sure to breath I feel really anxious. I don't know why. There's nothing I'm particularly focused on or worried about, but nonetheless, here I am. What's that?
Yeah, I mean that can be so many different things. Sometimes it can be cumulative stress. So you know, like you are operating at a let's say you're a high achiever, or you have your own business, or you're you're doing a stressful job, or you've got a lot of things going on over a long period of time, and you're handling it. You know, you're going, you're handling it. You
keep going, you keep going and keep going. But the impact of that over time is you've got cumulative stress and then you and then you start feeling like that tension in your chest and worries and you're like, but there's nothing happening right this second, I don't get it. Sometimes that can Sometimes that can happen, like people will get a panic attack. So that's that very intense anxiety reaction. And the experience of panic attacks is out of the blue.
It's like it just happened, and you're like, that doesn't make any sense, why did that happen? But if you actually delve into it a little bit more there's usually a reason or multiple reasons over time, and that it could be situational. It could be like there's multiple stressors over time, or it could be down to beliefs, and or it could be something that's physical, like there are
lots of places that to look. It could be down to your behaviors, like well, you've you've not realized it, but you've you've stopped, you're starting to sleep six hours a night instead of eight hours a night, or you're eating fast food more often, or you know your your child is having some trouble at school, or it could be so many different things. That's why it is really important to kind of understand what it might be, but also not to be afraid of it. I think sometimes
when people experience anxiety, there's two things that happen. One is they get really scared about it. They don't you know, and they and then they judge themselves for it. I should feel this way.
Yeah, a couple of things. It's so many things. As you were talking there, it's good.
I think.
Also stuff can be going on in your body, like you said, well, maybe you had shit sleep. Well, it's probably going to increase cortisole production because you're not fully recovered, or there's been this low level kind of you're in an office where there's a lot of bullshit going on. It's not about you, but it's around you, and so
there's this kind of subconscious impact. Maybe your conscious is not even aware of it, but now you're producing a bit of cortisole and adrenaline and all this stuff's happening in your body that you are obviously not choosing or regulating, and it's almost like this unconscious thing that's happening where yeah, it doesn't make it makes sense to your body, but it doesn't make sense to your mind because you don't know, like why is this happening? And I think also sometimes
I feel like anxiety. It's like filling up a cup of water. It's okay, and it's getting near that and you're like, I'm good. I'm good. I say that all the time, how are you? Yep? Good? And there might be thirty three things, not thirty, but there might be five or six things going on that are challenging. I'm good. And part of the reason I do that is because I think I am good, but maybe I'm not always as good as I think. Also, for me, you know how for a lot of people, talk therapy is great,
but we know that it's not great for everyone. So there are a percentage of people who when they talk about the thing, it doesn't help it. Potentially a small percentage of course, and everyone who talks to you gets transforms. We know that it's different, but that like if somebody goes to me how your parents, and I go, yep, pretty good, thanks, and you asked me that yesterday. So I'm not talking about you, but no, it depends on
where I'm at. Like there are sometimes when if people keep and their intentions are good, so I'm not at all resentful, but they keep going, oh and they want to know more and more and more and more, And I'm like, like, here's the truth. Right, They're not great, but it's fine, right, But when I talk about that, nannswer and then we keep pribing and what about this? What about that? Have they got that you know that
age care number yet? And if they done this assessment that It's like when I finish that, I feel fucked and I'm unhappier than when I started. It's like, I don't I'm not trying to be rude to you. I don't want to talk about it. It doesn't move the needle. There's no, it doesn't help them, it doesn't change the situation. And also for me, I'm not saying this is anyone else,
but for me, it doesn't help. And so there's that as well, the complexity around when to talk, when not to talk, when to open the door, when to leave it shut, because it's not like, oh, you need to talk about it, you know what. Some people don't, well they don't at that point in time. I think we all get to a point where, you know, one day I'm going to ring you and I'm going to fucking unload for three hours and you're going to go, I wish you get that door shut because this is exhausting.
I think, yeah, totally. I think it's really important to take the cues. I think, you know, like if I ask you, if I ask you, for instance, how your parents are, and you say it's fine. And when you say it's fine, I feel like what you're saying is I'm in an acceptance place about it, yea. And if you continue the conversation, that's my cue that it's okay to continue the conversation. And if you don't, then that's
my cue to not do that. And because I know you and I know that you're you know, you're a very capable person and I'm not there to like solve your problems or fix you or anything like. I'm just there is a friend and a support if you needed a support. But if you're you're good, I'm you know, I'm not going to intrude. So I feel like part of it is just listening out to the other person about what they're actually wanting and needing and doing that.
I think a lot of us want to jump in and try to solve and fix and problem solve, and that's most of us, honestly. When when most of us here a problem or somebody tells us a problem, we're like, oh what about this? What about that? You know, we're like straight into advice giving mode and you know, solution focus mode. But honestly, most people don't want that unless they ask for it. Yeah, you know, like if you
ask for advice, that's something completely different. But if you just say like, oh, I'm feeling like this because of this, that is not necessarily an open door to you jumping in and saying, well, have you thought of this? Have you thought of that, why don't you try this or aren't you ask before you give advice. Sometimes people just want to say it and that's it. Sometimes people want to just vent and that's it. Sometimes people just want to be validated for how they feel, and that's it.
And it's a skill, I think to just sit with somebody's distress and not try to fix it.
Yeah, don't sorry. I was going to say, you sit at the start that anxiety presents itself on three levels or in three wise one was functional, too, is dysfunctional? What's the third one?
The third one is disordered?
Right? Unpack that.
So you asked me at the beginning, what what are the disorders? Or how does that? How does that kind of work? So functional dysfunctional, We've talked about that. So disordered is basically a more intense version of dysfunctional. So like I say, higher intensity, longer duration, more frequency, the responsors are out of proportion to the issue. It's leading
to acute and chronic symptoms. It's significantly and negatively impacting important other areas of your life, whether that be your healthier work, your relationships, your self concept, if it's doing If that's the case for a duration of time, and normally for a disorder to be diagnosed, the duration for most anxiety disorders is months. For panic disorder, it's one
one month. That's the difference. So just because you have dysfunctional anxiety does not necessarily mean you have an anxiety disorder. But we don't tend to talk about anxiety in a nuanced way. People tended to say I'm anxious, and that sometimes can be any it could be any of those three things. Like you might be anxious about going on, you know, doing a big presentation tomorrow, and that's a completely normative thing to feel like it's a big deal.
It's a presentation you have to perform. It makes sense for you to feel anxious about that. And if it's functional, then it's it will do like that. Anxiety will motivate you to prepare and to practice and it won't stop
you from doing it right. And if it's dysfunctional, then you might get like more intense anxiety and you might decide to cancel, you know, Like there's lots of dysfunctional ways that anxiety can prevent or or like you're so nervous that you can't actually present it in a way that you want to and then but the disorder might be like, now you have a phobia of public speaking, yes, and that's generalized to not just big presentations, but now like you have a hard time sharing a meeting you know,
or talking in a group of in a social context with a group of friends, or meeting strangers. And that's what can happen with anxiety disorders is that it generalizes to more areas of your life, and then your life becomes much much smaller, and you're afraid of more and more things, and your life becomes avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid, which makes anxiety more severe, more significant.
Yeah, I feel like anxiety kind of lives a parallel to other issues, like which we're going to talk about maybe later to another level. But OCD, I feel like they intersect or they put together. I feel like a couple of random ones that while you're talking, I was thinking, like agrophobia or agoraphobia, you know, fear of going outside, fear of being in rooms with lots of people. Like
there's anxiety wrapped around that. Body dysmorphia. People who don't really see themselves as other people see them physically, so they're always distressed about how they look and they're never this enough or that enough for it. That's always you know, they're hideous blah blah blah. And there's a lot of anxiety wrapped around that. And first cousin to that, which I've dealt with, I don't know how many people hundreds
are people with eating disorders. There's so much anxiety around I'm not talking about disordered eating, I'm talking about eating disorders.
Yeah.
And then the one that you already brought up, which was you know, performance related or performance anxiety. It's like it's not the right word, but it collaborates with a lot of other kind of psychological and emotional challenges.
Yeah, I mean some of the ones that you mentioned are actual anxiety disorders. So like there's basically five under like the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. You know, if you're looking at the DSM, like specific phobias is one, and that includes like public speaking and spiders and heights and stuff like that. That might be under social phobia, which
is also called social anxiety disorder. And then there's panic disorder, which we which is not just the experience of panic attacks, it's the fear of having more panic attacks.
Wow, imagine getting anxiety about the possibility of getting anxiety.
Yeah, that's what panic disorder actually is.
Wow. Yeah, wow.
And then agoraphobia used to be only connected to panic disorder, but now they've separated it out as a separate disorder, and then generalized anxiety disorder is the disorder that is characterized by excessive worry. But what you were saying in terms of how anxiety kind of underpins lots of disorders,
and it does. And I think like worry is one of the main underpinnings of all of the anxiety disorders and many other disorders, like eating disorders, like worry about body image and judgment from others and being overweight or and you know, depression is worrying about often ruminating about the past, and worrying about how you know some people look at us, worrying about how we are, what our
self worth is. There's so many, all, almost all the psychiatric diagnoses out there underpinned by worry and anxiety.
Do you think that anxiety is the symptom or the problem? Let me explain. I feel like so many things we go this is a problem, this is the problem, And I'm like, no, that thing up there is not the problem. That's the symptom down here is the problem. I feel like fear is the driver of anxiety, right.
Well, the way that's psychology kind of defines them is anxiety is like in anticipation of an event, a threat, whereas fear is the threat is imminent. That's the difference between anxiety and fear to me, and.
You're the guru, not me, but to me, it seems like if somebody is anxious about something, I go to them, what are you scared of? And they go scared of this, this, this? And I go and if that didn't exist, would you be I mean obviously they go, well, no, I wouldn't have this anxiety if that wasn't I don't know. I think it's very not disagreeing with you at all. I just think they're so intertwined. And sometimes I think with people, let's let's do It's like, oh, the symptom is my
arm's broken. Oh, let's put that in a sling. No, let's reset the arm, let's fix the brake, let's you know, and then let's put it in a sling. Or you know that I'm exhausted, cool, have four coffees a day, not too Nah, let's deal with the underlying cause of the exhaustion. Let's figure out what's happening in your body.
Yeah, I mean, I think like part of the issue is we think we shouldn't feel anxious, and I think it's not it's not anxiety that's the problem. If it's the interaction with anxiety that is the problem.
So do you think some people feel the same thing, Like, let's say, for example, if it's hard to because how do you know because it's subjective, But let's just say theoretically there was a way to go. What Craig is feeling is what TIFF's feeling. Tiff feels high level anxiety but more than anything, focused and concentration and excitement, right, And I feel the same thing and I'm basically incapacitated. Like that same feeling creates a different reaction person person, you know.
Yes, And that's what we were talking about before with like cognitive therapy would be looking at, well, how are you guys thinking differently about this? Like the example that you used before about like you're doing a presentation and
all of a sudden your thoughts go to they hate me. Yeah, so let's say like you and Tiffany both doing a presentation and both of you have that thought, yeah, and your next thought is, oh, my god, like I'm doing a terrible job and now I'm like going to lose my place and it just you know, you could go on and not.
Going to get another gig yet I get.
Right, So your feelings on that chain of thinking is going to be what It's going to lead to more anxiety, maybe thoughts about self worth, maybe maybe depression to an extent now. But but TIFF's response to that thought is like, oh, that's one of those thoughts that I sometimes have, yeah, right, Or what if they hate me? If I can cope with that, yeah, like you know, there's no real evidence for it. But if they hate me, it's like, well I'll survive it, yes, yes, right. So it's the interpretation
and the interaction with the thought. And I think a lot of people think that when they have like a negative what they say is a negative thought, Yeah, they want to stop it, avoid it, push it away rather than interact with it. And that se that's like that's an avoidance response, right, Like I don't like this experience and I shouldn't be having it. I'm going to squash it because it shouldn't be there, and I hate it
and I don't like it. But the research on thought suppression is the more you try to suppress, the more it wants to come up again, because if it's an anxiety response, it's trying to protect you. And so if you just if you're like no, stop and it's like, hold on a second, this is important. I need to tell you this. You need to listen, right, So if you can find a way of making that process more functional, like oh, that's one of those thoughts, I recognize that thought.
I've had that thought in the past, or oh, I've heard you and I've assessed it and I don't need to worry about it, or this is this is a problem that I hear you. I don't have time to deal with this right now, but at five o'clock tonight, I'm going to deal with you.
I just wonder whether or not the theory of that happens in the real world. Like I feel like when someone is truly anxious, what you're saying makes sense on a podcast, But I don't know that somebody who's fucking down the rabbit hole in anxiety and everything's elevated can have that chat and just switch it off.
No, but it's and it's not about switching it off. And I totally understand what you're saying, because you're right. If you're like at the crisis point of anxiety and you're like very distressed, the part of your brain that will think of those things has shut down.
Yeah.
So it so like if someone was to come in to see me, I'm not telling I'm not going to say, here are the strategies when you get really distressed, do these things I'm going to I'm we're going to talk about We're going to practice a few strategies when someone isn't stressed right at that level, See what feels good, see what works well, see what someone is willing to do, and then have those go to strategies ready somewhere their
go to strategies. Yeah, and then when they get distressed the next time, what I often think is helpful is they don't have to think about anything else but go back to that list of their go tos. Because when you're distressed, you can't think properly. But if you know, like there's a place you can go that will help
switch on that part of your brain, that's like. And also I think sometimes even just being able to identify your emotion because when you're really distressed, you're in it and you're just feeling it and you're not like pausing to be like I'm having this feeling. That's a skill like anything else.
Yeah, no, I agree, And that's quite insightful. I think like it feels almost like our brain and our body are running the show and our mind's lack a passenger, an unwilling passing who doesn't have the solutions in the moment, and it's like your brain, you know, like your brain's producing all these chemicals, it's sending all these you know, signals to all the organs in your body to do this and produce more or less of that. And that's happening despite you, not because of you, but on the
because of you front. Is the mind where we're analyzing what's going on and we're trying to give meaning to what's going on, and we're trying to think clearly, and we're trying to kind of salvage some kind of sanity or comfort or something. But it's almost like it's you versus your body. It's you versus your brain, because your brain's made an assessment and take an action that you weren't involved in, you know, And then then it's like
fucking hell. It's like I can't make my brain do different stuff, not right now, not right in the moment. It's just doing what it does when it perceives threat. It does all these things, and now online be here an unwilling passenger who's in the middle of a shipfest of psychological trauma that I don't want. Yeah, it's a really interesting combination of things going on.
Yeah, and it's self perpetuating, and there are different ways to intervene on it. Yeah, And it's about like starting that process because if you keep doing the same thing and responding in the same way, yeah, it becomes harder and harder, and that neural pathway becomes stronger and stronger, and it becomes like a habit now, a habit of the mind, a habit of responses. Yes, and it feels automatic and unchangeable, but nothing is unchangeable. You absolutely can
change it, like one of the ways. I don't know where this analogy came from, but I really liked it, and I use it with my client sometimes. But it's like if you're skiing down a mountain and you just take the same path every time they pass, same paths, same path So over time you're in this like deep groove with snow like walls you know, beside you, and you can't see any other path Yes, but they exist,
that is true. So it's about trying to find those other paths, experimenting with other paths and starting to create new habits and new ways, new pathways of behaving and responding to things. And that's certainly possible, but it's possible in a number of different ways. I think it's not just a cognitive therapy thing where you just change your thoughts and automatically everything is great. Sometimes it is about
the situation. Sometimes people learn in circumstances that are untenable and you need to like think about ways of like how do we make the environment better for this person. Sometimes it's about it is like a about their overall level of stress and anxiety that they carry on a general basis without any you know, major things that happening, Like some people are at it. So if we think about everyone has a certain level of stress and stress is good, just like anxiety is good. It has serves
a function. If we had zero stress, we would have no motivation. We would be apathetic. We wouldn't you know, we'd just be sitting on the couch doing nothing. We need some level of stress. If we have too much, then that's problematic too, right. But if everyone's at like a level in general of stress, but you sit higher than that, I'm doing stuff with my hands that nobody can see. But if you sit higher than that, whenever something happens and you have a spike of anxiety or
stress or fear, you're at a higher level. So you're going to hit that panic line or that anger line, or that distress line much more easily than someone who's at a lower level. So, like, one of the things that I think can be helpful is like how do you get people from this higher level of stress down
to like the more average level. And like you know, for instance, progressive muscle relaxation is often a really helpful thing for people to try to get their overall levels of stress down and so they're not too vulnerable to those sorry.
I think also when you've been skiing in those metaphoric plows, you know, those those channels where you're skiing down a particular route and over time it's gone from grooves in the snow to trenches in the snow, and now you're you know that the walls are up around your ears, but you're still in the same trench that's deeper and deeper. As you said, you can't see the others. It's very hard after thirty years or twenty years, or however many years of skiing in that trench to extract yourself from
it easily or quickly. And so there's that on top of it. Hey, I want to pull I want to pull a pin in this for the moment and just go to because we've got five to ten minutes left. I want to talk about functional anxiety. Let's look through a more positive lens. How can anxiety be a servant not a master? If that's possible, how can we use it for our benefit? Like we've spoken about the comms and the challenges. What are the pros if any.
Well, I mean, first, it's like under like, I think we have a tendency to hate, like any kind of distress or discomfort. Right, we don't like it, and anxiety doesn't feel good, but it doesn't mean that it is that it's bad. And so the first thing is just to understand that the whole range and sweet of emotions, whether it's whether it's anxiety or sadness, or disappointment or
even anger, frustration, all sort of function. If we can start from that point and say like, okay, I'm feeling this, what is the function of this and the function of all emotions are to give us information, right to sometimes it's to tell other people something and to motivate us to do something. So if you think about anxiety, anxiety is there to tell us that there might there may
be a threat or the problem on the horizon. And if it's functioning well, it's accurately signaled a threat, right, there's something worries.
It's kind of an ely warning system.
That's what it is. That's exactly what it is. So if it's functioning well, it's warning you off something that's real, and it's activating your body to deal with that in a functional, healthy, health, healthful way, yes, and motivating you
to do something about it. So let's say you know, if you are walking in the woods and you see a snake, or you know that there's going to be snakes, so you're like, you know, you're cautious, and then you see one and they're like, oh, there's a snake, and anxiety kicks in and it it activates the freeze response, and you just stand and you wait for the snake to pass and it goes and then you continue on your way. That's functional, that's what it's supposed to do.
It didn't feel good. I didn't like the anxiety. I felt scared when I saw the snake. But my body and my responses were exactly what they needed to be. That's functional.
My body is not going into that bush. My buddy's hutting the fuck out of that bush.
Yeah, I mean avoidances. Avoidance is something to avoid most of the time. Avoidance.
That's an avoid avoidance, avoid.
Avoidance, yes, because that can make a anxiety bigger.
Yes, But you're talking about when you say avoid avoidance, you're talking about don't avoid things that you shouldn't avoid. There are some things we should avoid, right, Let's avoid taking drugs, Let's avoid playing near the edge of the cliff. Let's you know. But you're talking about things that we should probably lean into, not away from.
Yes. Yeah, se if you used going, you know, presentations are going to work in something's anxiety provoking. Avoiding that is not going to be a functional response. But if anxiety is helping you protect yourself, helping you to plan, helping you to problem solve, helping you to prepare, then it's working.
Yeah, it does. That's interesting that you say that. For me, I don't have overwhelming fear or even fear. Maybe I have a modicum of fear. There's a word that doesn't get used to much, but I have low level anxiety with pretty much every presentation. I mean, like a one or a two, but I can feel I don't feel exactly like I did an hour ago. It's part of its excitement, but a little bit of it is fear slash anxiety, and it kind of for me, it works
as you are suggesting. It works positively because it makes me more present, more focused, more on task, but not in any to any level of overwhelm. So then when I get introduced and I walk out, I think I'm better when there's a little bit of fear, like not crippling fear, but a little bit of fear, because one it helps me get really present, but two it keeps
me This sounds weird, but it keeps me grateful. Like I've done so many presentations, I could take it for granted, I'm always aware that this could be the last one I ever do, which I hope.
It's not good something you really care about, so it's like a sign that you care.
I think doing my job like I never take my job or my life, on my lifestyle, on my situation ever. For granted, maybe I do. I don't think I do, like I'm overwhelmingly grateful like this, like we've got sponsors, I'm talking to you. You're brilliant. Tip's great to work with and also is very clever in her own ways and has great stories, and not that she's really featuring in this, but I'm like, this is I've fucking found a hack, Like I get paid to do shit that
doesn't at all feel like work. Even when I'm on stage talking, I want to be there. This is not something I'm enduring to make money, right, you know? This is like I'm fucking I tricked everyone, Like I'm the
biggest trickster of all time. I'm up here getting paid to do this, and if I wasn't on stage doing it, I'd be talking to somebody at the cafe about it, like I'm you know, this is not when I'm not talking about the stuff, you know, human behavior broadly speaking, I'm listening to something about it, I'm writing posts about it,
I'm having conversations about it. Of course I talk about other things as well, But but yeah, before we wind up just speaking of the boxer in the corner, did anything come up for you, Tiff, like, any thoughts or any questions or any ideas or did you relate to any of that.
I always think about Lily and the impact of excitement on that same stress system. And I'm almost going to interject, but I didn't want to interrupt your flow. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Yeah, I mean it's often like that, you know, people say it's two sizes the same coin. It's like a it's how you frame it that can make a difference. But also I think it's also really helpful to normalize distress, you know, even if it's mild distress, even if it's labeled, you know, even if it's anxiety or whatever kind of distress, it is like, it's okay to feel that. I think if people can validate themselves be like, yeah, it's completely like for you, like completely normal to feel like this
before presentation makes makes perfect sense. It's reasonable for me to feel this way. I think that that can be just a really helpful way of managing anxiety and not judging, not judging it, not judging yourself, that just on its own can reduce the impact of it.
Love ITTT. I wanted to tell you both something funny, which I do about four times a day. I don't know if you do this so literally. We had five minutes between the last recording and this one with you, and I needed to drink and anyway, I went downstairs. I got downstairs, washed a few dishes that were from
my yogurt and fruit that I had. I didn't have a pie today, Tiff and I thought about it, and anyway, filled up my drink bottle, did a couple of other things, and then I was preoccupied with what you and I are going to talk about. And my drink bottle was on the bench downstairs. That's the reason I went down And don't even ask me why. I picked up the tea towel next to the drink bottle and walked upstairs, sat down, sat down here, put my tea towel on the fucking desk and went, what is like one? Why
did I pick that up too? Why did I bring it upstairs? And three? Why did I put it on the bench. I was trying to figure out why I went down there. I'm like, oh, you fuck an idiot, you drink. So then I had to return the teatowl to its rightful place, And I'm like, what is that? Is that called the doorway effect? Where you go to a room to do something and you're thinking so much
about shit on the way. Then you get to the room and your mind is now trapped in or not, it is focused on this other thing, like three thoughts after the original thought, go get you a drink? So do you ever do that? Do you walk into a room and go why the fuck am I here?
Yeah? I think it's called getting old.
Yeah, I've been ever.
Yeah, it does happen to me a lot. And I've done like almost the exact same thing that you've done. I've gone, you know, like so many times, like gone to go get something and then walked back to where I was because I cannot remember what I wanted to get in the first life. And then I'll sit down and then I'll be like, oh, that's what it was, and then I'll have to go get up and go do it. I think part of that, you know, is
just not being mindful. Like yeah, like you said, you're thinking about too many things at once and you've lost track of what your main goal is.
Do you do that?
Cook all the more of them than I don't do it. I spent ten minutes yesterday looking for the keys that I had put in my bra I got up, picked them up, put them in a safe spot, did something, and then spent ten minutes looking for them.
Oh gosh, Yeah.
I've spent minutes looking for the glasses that are on top of my head.
Yeah.
And I remember this because I wrote a post about it. The first time I got in the shower with my glasses on, I was fifty seven. I'm like, I'm fucked. This is the beginning of the end. And I didn't have on top of my head. I had them on my eyes. Like, and I get in there, I'm like, fucking fucking steamy in here. What's going on?
That's very h oh god.
Anyway, we just do what we can. Doctor Lillian, You're amazing. Tell people how they can connect with you or I know you're doing some exciting things. I don't know how much of that you can share, But where would you like people to see you or connect with you.
Well, since we've been talking about anxiety today, I would suggest going to contain your brain dot com and that is a source of information mainly on worry but also anxiety and also a place you can download an app for free that will help you reduce worry and solve your problems more effectively. So maybe that's the best place this time, contain your brain.
Perfect, yeah, perfect, Well, thank you, We appreciate you. Enjoy your We're recording this Thursday before Easter. Are you a chocolate person?
Yes? I have chocolate every single day.
Oh wow, you're you and Tifa Kindred Spirits.
Yeah wow wow, Yeah, guilt free. I don't feel guilty about it.
I'm going to have to up my pie intake. Have you had any chocolate today?
Cook, Yeah, of course I have.
Well, if you could only back to our original question, then we'll wind up. If you could only have one type of chocolate for the rest of your.
Life, tiff witty kids, witty kids playing milk?
Yeah wow, Lillian, I'll say lint.
Really is that because it's fancy or do you really think.
I really really like it? So if I'm going to like really. I'm always like, if I'm going to eat junk food, it's going to be the good stuff. It's the stuff that I really like. So yeah, I do really like Lynch chocolate. I like one particular one. It's a dark chocolate almond one. It's really good.
My dad, growing up, God bless Ron, he used to eat rum and raisin, so it's like dark chocolate and I don't know if it's got actual rum in it and raisins.
That's my nightmare.
Yeah, so the twelve year old fat kid fucking hode into that at about one animal in the the cover of darkness, like an elite covert operative, just fucking stealing rations for the bedroom.
Yeah. I used to store stuff in my bedroom too, because my brothers used to eat everything. So I'm like, I'm not letting you eat all the cookies. I'm going to coming to buy them and put them in my room.
Good idea. What were you going to say too?
I was going to tell Lillian, I've a good friend that curates the top two percent of chocolate from around the world. And because you mentioned Mexican before, she does a tequila and chocolate caring evening. It's amazing. She held the last one at Radio Mexico.
Oh wow, you're going to have to send me that in for yes, please, I will. That sounds great.
Wow great.
Do you not eat chocolate at all?
Not really? Ah, okay, that's not true. This is people are going to laugh because this is embarrassing. I have protein bars that have got chocolate on. Yeah.
Count yes, it does.
It counts okay, yeah, but not many like I used to eat protein bars daily. Turns out they're not as great as we think everyone. I might expand on that. You know, they're not terrible, but they're not really highly nutritious. So oh well, I'll tell you what is a good source of protein. A googie egg there you go, coming up. Yeah, scrambled eggs and a little bit of ham, a little bit tomato, a little bit of onion, no toast. Oh fuck yeah, come on.
Now, we're going to do Easter eggs this weekend, not scrambled.
Good to chat to you both. We'll say goodbye US three off air, but for the minute, Lilian, thank you, TIF, thank you, thank you.
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