I'll get a team. It's you project. Hope you're bloody terrific. Welcome to another installment. It's early in the am over here in the thriving metropolis of Melbourne, down the bottom of Australia. For those of you around the world, Hope you're terrific. So last night, so Melissa is very excited about today's guest, And yesterday I had a day of mayhem. My mum wasn't well, ended up in hospital. I had to drive four hours and do a whole lot of things. So all the prep that I was going to do
flew out the window. All the meetings I had flew out the window. God bless Mary. She's okay. Thanks everybody for all the messages I get about my parents. Your ace. Anyway, so the normal time that I would invest into researching my guest kind of went out the window. And I thought when I got home last night, I thought to myself self, why don't you watch I watched all these videos Melissa sent me, which were very impressive, But then why don't you have a look at Leon's special? It's sure,
what is it? It's a doco? I guess he'll tell me in a minute. On Netflix, and I thought, you know what, I'm going to pretend I've watched it. They're going to watch five to ten minutes of it. And then and then I started watching it and I couldn't stop, complete with tears, complete with all the It was an emotional roller coaster. I was like a blubbering sixty year old male. It was pathetic and joyous all at the
same time. So while I'm plugging that, that's called The Kindness Within on Netflix in Australia anyway, So have a look at that. That's really brilliant, Leon High. Thanks for joining me, Hey, thanks for having me. What are you up to today? Before we go back, like, what are you doing in twenty twenty six? Because I know what you were doing and what you've been doing. What are you doing now?
That's going to be a bit of a boring answer on my fred I'm kind of just doing nothing in limbo. I wouldn't see limbo. I think it's a I created nothing for myself on purpose.
H good, I think it. How do you sit with nothing? A lot of people are terrible in the middle of nothing. And it's a really brave answer because people tend to want to go, Yeah, I've got a lot of things in the pipeline. We're just working on this and we're you know, it's like, what are you doing? Fuck all?
Great?
How is it? What are you doing? I'm doing? Fuck all? How is it? It's really good? I tell I tell all of my peeps and some of my clients and audiences, and we talk about fuck all days, how amazing they are. And some people have fuck all months or even years, I'm sure, just to hit the pause button and try to figure out where they're at and what's what do you how do you use your fuck all time?
Well? Look, I did a lot and I think I burned myself out and make I made a conscious decision that I was going to do nothing until I felt a true urge to do something beautiful. And I feel the urge coming back a little bit, but not enough to stop doing nothing.
Yeah, you know, what do you think it is? The you know, it's we talk about I don't know in the States where you're at, in England, where you're from, the busy badge. It's like being busy is a badge of honor. It's like even when you say to people, how are you, they'll say busy, Like they don't even talk about how they are, they talk about what they're doing. It's like this almost this social kind of tick. I'm busy, mate, busy, flat out. What is that about the pride that we take in being busy.
I think maybe if you tell someone that you're busy, it means that you're important because you've got a lot going on. Tell someone that you're not busy, then you're not important and you haven't got a lot going on. I think maybe, yeah, maybe people always saying to me, They're always say to me, oh, you're so, and in the back of my head, I'm like, no, I'm not. You're probably actually the first person I've fully truly said I'm just not doing anything.
Yeah. I think it's amazing, I think, and especially if you can go I'm not doing anything and I'm really good. I'm happy, like and doing not much for me right now exactly what I need to be not doing, which is good. So as much or as little as you want. And I hate questions like this, but we can't really move forward without people having any context over who you
are and what you do. And rather than me reading some bio that I found somewhere can you give people an insight into who you are and a little bit of your background and where you grew up in all of that, and kind of what inspires you, and then we'll unpack a few different bits, if you would sure.
So, I grew up in London. I was a broker in the city of London, and I had everything you could have a want on the outside on the inside, and no one knew. I was totally broken, and I thought that was going to be my life. Fortunately, and luckily, I stumbled across the movie The Motorcycle Diaries, which is a romanticized version of Jacovara traveling around South America and relying on kindness. I watched that movie and it just
lit up something in my soul. And to cut a long story short, I quit my job and I started to travel around the world lying on kindness. I hitchhiked from Times Square to the Hollywood Sign. I went from the Eiffel Tower to Red Square in Moscow. I purchased a vintage taxi and drove it across America, giving free camp rights to people. I started writing books, et cetera, et cetera, and then I kind of fell back into the old patterns and was running a production company in Hollywood,
and I had another moment. I like having kind of breakdowns, it seems every few years. And I was walking on Hollywood Boulevard saw this chap homeless guy with a sign that said Kindness is the best Medicine. And I had another epiphany. And this time I decided to quit my job, stop running my production company, buy a vintage Jeller motorcycle, and drive it from Los Angeles all the way around the world back to Los Angeles with no money, no food,
no gas, no place to stay. All I had was relying on your listeners, people like you kindness and that was a life changing experience. I came back after that. Then I did it again. I went from March, Alaska all the way down to Argentina in a fifty year old beetle And you know, I thought I'd reached a pinnacle of life. My life so on Netflix, speaking in stadiums, best selling books, busy, Busy, busy, busy, right, And I
realized that I wasn't. I'm very proud of my success, I'm very proud of the lives we touched, I'm very proud of everything. But I had a very very dark night of the soul. I don't know a dark night of the soul. It can't say very very It was a dark night of the soul. And I found myself in my house up on a hill writing a suicide note, believe it or not. And I wrote it, and I don't think I was going to act on it, but I did write it, and I ended up I had
the courage to call my therapist. I called him some random time and he happened to pick it up, which is quite amazing, and he took me down. And the next day I found myself walking in Venice Beach and I walked into a bookshop which I've been to I don't know fifty times, sixty times, and I saw this book on the shelf, The Autobiography of a Yogi. And I've seen that book many many times, but I'd never
picked it up. This time I picked it up and I randomly opened it to a random page and a random paragraph, and I read that he was talking to his soon to be guru. He says, if you reveal God to me, I will follow you anywhere to me. The word God doesn't it doesn't mean the person living up in the sky with the beard. It was the universal energy of love. I read that one sentence and I was like, Okay, I'm going to go to India to find God and I'm not coming back until I do.
Obviously I like doing dramatic things, right, So I did. I went to India, I brought along the film crew, and I mean I came back, so I gave away the whole movie. But that's that's really what happened. And and I kind of got connected to spirit and got connected to soul. Do I do it perfectly? Absolutely not. Do I still get depressed? Absolutely? Do I have bad days? I? Do? I have good days?
Yes?
And after that film was when I decided Busy, Busy, Busy Leon was going to be replaced with do nothing Leon until you're ready to start the process again. That's the shortest version I can give you of the past twenty years.
Man, it's amazing. It's amazing, and so I love the I don't know if it's impulsive. It's not impulsive, I guess because you've given a lot of thought. But incredibly brave and what do you think it is about humans? That? And again, this is just two blokes talking. Neither of us are guru's that's well, you might be.
I'm not.
What do you think it is? You've got a fucking hint of guru about you? What do you think it is about the human condition that we struggle so much to be content or satisfied because it seems like no matter where we are or what we have, we're not content with lights. There's always got to be something next, something or something bigger, something better, something shiny. What do you think just your opinion? What is that about?
I think that again, it's just my opinion. I could very well be wrong, but I think that it's biologically implanted into us. And you know, biologically we have been trained to always think something terrible is about to happen. If you're living in a cave, you go out, you have to be like, okay, am I going to get eaten by lion or not? And if you don't think
that you are going to get eaten by lion? Right, So, our brains and the human condition always goes towards the negative, and it's about kind of making that pendulum swing more to the positive whilst not forgetting that there's negative. There's bad things that go on in the world, and for example, with The Kindness Diaries, the book and the show. I specifically put things in that book that would really bad things,
things like the killing fields, slave dungeons. I did that on purpose, extermination camps, because I don't want to just show the light. That's that you can get blinded by the light. There is light and there is darkness. You have to be aware of both of them. So it's
called the Kindness Diaries. But each episode of the of the show has some some some pretty dark things as well as in the Kindness within the film, it's I don't want to give this way, but it starts off in a way that's pretty dark, right, and then it becomes light.
Yes, what is What is the relationship between kindness and happiness? Do you think or I don't know. Kindness isn't care I'm trying to think when we think about kindness the act of to me, it's like being somewhat selfless, where you're doing something for someone with no agenda. You're not it's not a it's not a strategy, it's not a transaction. What's the relationship?
Do you know what? I will disagree there and I will say that kindness is not selfless. What do I mean by that so someone can say, oh, mother to Raser, such a selfless person. Yeah right, the dell Alama, such a selfless person. But if I'm kind to you, I win as well because I get to feel that magic glow of of of of being kind of being loving. It is a win win. You win and I win. We both win. So it's not selfless. My kindness to you makes me feel better.
I like at fifteen love you, You're up one good? What did you learn about? And I'm sure it's a million things, but does anything come in near the top of the list, Like and you've done a myriad of things, but what have you learned about you?
Like?
What when you're in that depressive state and when you went through.
Was it?
Did you say ten years of kind of blah?
Was that was that you? Not not ten years?
But you went through a period of whatever? Being company is? What? What does current you now know and understand that that version of you didn't.
When it cut that version of me being the one.
Who I'm not clear, sorry, the one who was like back when you were a trader, you were pumping and then you you know, it's like you had everything but nothing, And I feel like I talk about this a bit like from the outside looking in, you were successful, but maybe from the inside experience out, you were perhaps spiritually or emotionally or socially or whatever bankrupt.
Yes, I was totally spiritually and emotionally bankrupt. And what happens from what I experience in the world is that there are people out there that concentrate entirely for good reasons, but they concentrate entirely on making money, on ego, on status, etc. Et cetera, et cetera. They have been told that if you do that, you will become successful and everything will
work itself out. There's no doubt that if you work hard well, if you work hard, if you make money, if you do things like that, you will become successful to the way that the world sees success. But that doesn't guarantee by any stretch of imagination, and it may in fact take you further away from the true success, which is how you feel inside and how you show up in the world. And again I'm not espousing perfection.
You know. It's so interesting because, as you know, I do speeches, and I got a question once from a kid because I do school speeches, and the kid puts his hand up his I don't know, maybe ten whatever, and he says, mister Leon, and mister Leon, have you ever been mean? And I immediately think to myself, Oh my god, I'm going to lie to the child. I am going to lie to the child, right, And then I thought to myself, No, you're not going to lie to the child. You're going to tell the child the truth.
And I said to him, of course I've been mean because I'm human just like you, and I have good days and I have bad days. Right, So it's no, it's never about perfection. And this is why sometimes when I hear the true gurus or people who are out in the world espousing goodness and spirituality, and I don't hear them talking about the negative side of things. I hear them just talking about their magnificence. That's not truth.
It's just not There isn't a person out there that hasn't at some time in their life been an asshole, being unpleasant, done something they're not proud of. So, like I said, there's light and there's darkness. One has to feel and understand both of them. For ourselves as well as well as other people. There is no perfection none.
So interesting. One of the things I'm terrible at many things, but one of them is asking for help. I was watching you last night. I'm like, well, that's one of the things that I couldn't do on this little, little,
this little epic journey of yours. And I thought, I'm for whatever reason, or maybe I guess I called it if I had to, But just the thought of asking ranges for help when you really didn't, like you didn't need you just put yourself in that situation to I guess have an experience and learn and grow and all of those things. But I'm thinking, how did you go
with that? Like, you're a guy who financially and practically you don't need to go and ask people for things, but you put yourself in a situation were required to. How was that emotionally and mentally?
So I'm an introvert. You may not, you may not feel that way when you watch the shows, you look at the books, et cetera. But I'm an introvert. And as a kid, I was very shy. I couldn't even walk down to the lunch hall at school because I was too shy. Right, So what I did, without realizing it, this was an unconscious thing. What I did was I always had. I grew up privileged, right in the sense of finance, the finances, but I didn't grow up privileged in the sense of emotions. So what I did was
I flipped it. I forced myself to go out into the world with no money. Right, Okay, it's an experiment. It's a TV shows, but no money, So there goes the privilege in this experiment. Yet I had to force myself to connect with people emotionally. So it is I put myself into a box where I think I like going up to strangers. I don't do it in my daily life where I got up to strangers and I'm like, oh, hello, can you help me? I mean I couldn't. I could
now because I've done it so many times. But I understand that it's not a simple thing, right Like, first of all, they could say no, and many people did. They said no, and that's not fun when someone says no. So I'm not going to help you. So it's a self protection mechanism as well.
I believe, of course, what did you learn? Okay to that then, so where that becomes there are certain dynamics involved in here's a stranger approaching someone and wanting something from the someone that they've never met. Yes, I'm sure the way that you went about that, like from attempt one to attempt five hundred, was quite different. What changed either with language or approach or I don't know, process, How did that evolve? So you got for one of a less dry term a better ROI.
Yeah, that's a good one. Look, it was a TV show, which made it easier, meaning that I didn't go up to people immediately with a camera. But the moment they realized it was a show, right, they were like, I will not be murdered by this man. Okay. Yeah. The sense of safety, yeah, their sense of safety was was you know, they fell sick. Even though they felt safe, you still have to do it in a very specific way.
I was very careful with my distance when I first spoke to people, right, and I would always I would always stand outside of their energy field so that they would feel safe. I would always come with a I would always come with a story depending on the situation. So for example, if I was talking to them with my yellow motorbike in view, I would say, look, I'm that's my yellow motorbike. I'm traveling around the world, relying entirely on the kindness of strangers, and you seem pretty
kind and then laugh and then you know. So there were lots of different ways, depending on how the situation was, what they were like, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And did I always succeed now, of course not. I failed miserably most of the time. Yeah, but it made me understand the human condition. It made me understand how to communicate with people. You just you know, micro expressions,
the energy. For example, if there's a woman with some kids, probably you know, I'm a guy, I'm probably not going to talk to them. You know, I may do, I may not. It depends on the situation. So it's it's it's a It was a It was really a social experiment in many ways as well, and I learned so much. Yeah.
It was also an experiment in psychology, trying to understand, trying to understand. So there's a theory in psychology called theory of mind, which is understanding how other people think. And you would like this. My PhD is around a thing called metaperception, which is your ability to understand the leon experience for others.
Wow, that's a good one.
So the question at the core of this research is what is the what is the me experience like for this woman with two kids that I'm talking to, or for Craig on the other side of this chat, or my friends or family, so, you know, and having some level of insight into how other people think or perceive or process in real time, Like in this moment you and I are chatting. We're in the same chat, but we're not in the same experience because my brain's not
yours and vice versa. Yeah, trying to have some insight into what is this like for them? And I would think you probably never heard of that term, but I would think you're probably quite good at both theory of mind and met a perception because of your real world experience.
So whereas you are constantly making and adjusting to micro judgments in the moment to think how do I best navigate this interaction and create a good outcome, although you're not logically thinking of those questions, you're just doing it.
Do you know what. I'm so glad you told me those two things because that's pretty much exactly what I do. And I'm going to research those two things. I've got to remember them, but I'm going.
To we'll have when we finish, we'll have a chat for a few minutes and I'll give you those Okay.
Okay, yeah, because it's it's a skill. It's a skill that I learned well. And I didn't realize what the skill was until you just told me.
Well you, I would think you're and talking to you now like you are an introvert, but you don't come across, but you are. You're a good communicator. And what I like about talking to you, I'm not pissing in your pocket, as Australian say, but sometimes I get people on. I mean, I've done this thousands of times and it's very yes, no, it's very It's almost like their role playing. It's like I'm talking to a persona but that's not you, right,
this is organic. It's a bit messy. Our listeners don't know. But a minute ago someone walked in, we had a brief break. It's all doesn't matter. And my constant feedback about this show is I like it because it doesn't sound like an interview. It sounds like two people chatting about stuff and that, you know, being able to learn from each other. I'm going to learn more from you today.
But you know.
When you were grown up, said, I don't know if you had this, but I grew up in a very religious environment, so I always had which was good and bad, but I had always and I still have like what I would call a god curiosity. I don't even know what that means, right, But you sound like the same. Have you arrived at any concrete conclusions or are you still on the journey?
So I would say that I'm still on the journey, but I have also reached some concrete conclusions. So when I was in India for the film, I ended up going to the Golden Temple, which is the holiest site for the Sikh religion. And next to the Golden Temple there was a kitchen and they call it God's Kitchen, right, And I walked into God's Kitchen and I sat there from two three hours helping they feed one hundred thousand people a day for free. And there was something about
that place that I was truly extraordinary. And it was in that moment in God's Kitchen that I realized that if God is love, which ultimately it is the universal energy of everything that ever has been, everything that ever will be, and everything that is coming right. If that is what God is, then I have experienced God, and every single one of us has experienced God. If God is the man up in the clouds with the white beard, you know, if some people want to want to experience
that as God, then God bless them. Right. For me, it was that experience of love that was universal in all of us, and in didn't have a face, It didn't have it didn't have anything. It was feeling. And I realized as well that you can't explain God it is. You have to feel it. And if you feel it, you know. And it was a truly it was a life changing moment. You know, when you have a moment, even if for me it kind of lasted, but even if you have a moment for two seconds, that felt
experience never leaves you know. Let's say you're an alcoholic, right and you have this moment moment of clarity where you realize that it is killing you. You can go back to drinking, but you can never forget that moment. And that moment is the moment that I had in that kitchen at the Golden Temple. I can never forget it. I can be depressed, I can you know, not be present. I can be doing things that I'm not proud of, but that moment never goes away. It will always come back. Wow.
I've had a few of those moments myself. I won't boy you, but I had one like revelation like that which blew my head off that I can't. I don't want to forget, but I can't either. And I think it's interesting because we're so or we think we are anyway humans. We're so rational, we're so logical, we need to understand everything, but so much about let's say God or that spiritual journey or whatever falls into the spiritual basket, like what's going on? It doesn't make sense in inverted
commas through a logical lens. But it doesn't because when we say makes sense, that just means, oh, this doesn't fit in with my understanding of how things work. If I can't see it, touch it, feel it, measure it, look at it, it can't be real. But sometimes the most powerful things, or the most powerful moment or experiences we have are kind of illogical but incredibly overwhelmingly transformative. And I think this sounds weird, but especially as someone
who studies the brain and the mind. Like, it's our need to try to understand everything, which I think sometimes gets in the way of connecting with everything.
One everything is not everything in a spiritual sense, and understanding everything and feeling that moment of everything cannot be figured out through logic, cannot be figured out through the brain. I'm not telling you not to read, I'm not telling you not to watch documentaries, and I'm not telling you not to be clever. I'm just saying that the true everything happens beyond the brain, beyond the mind, and that moment you're like, oh my goodness, that's the reality and the mask falls.
Now.
The trick, which I have clearly not managed to do, is to have that mask fall always. Yeah, Like I try not to watch the news, and in the past four or five days, I've been watching the news, and this morning I decided I'm not going to watch the news, and lo and behold, I felt better just from one decision to not watch the news. So it's it's a somatic, felt experience. That's where the true magnificence happens.
Yeah, and we're just these imperfect creatures trying to figure stuff out. Who have as you said to that young ten year old boy who asked a very smart question, like, you know, we do dumb shit, we do good shit. We have good and bad days. We react out of love, we react out of frustration, and this is the human experience. It's just trying to I do the same thing. Like, I'm quite logical and cerebral, but at the same time, I intellectually understand that sometimes my mind is actually the problem,
not the fucking solution. You know, my mind gets in the way of joy or bliss or calm or learning or understanding. We think it's this all amazing or knowing tool, and I'm so glad my mind works and all of that. But at the same time, you know, my mind is a storyteller, and some of the stories I tell myself
a complete bullshit and that. But when you don't realize that your story is actually a story, not truth, then your body believes that story is truth, and then that becomes your lived experience and it's all based on not much other than your own perception.
Yes, Indeed, the moment when we realize our stories are actually the things that are causing us the most pain, that's an interesting moment, right, Like, Yeah, and sometimes often our stories are just lies to ourselves.
Right, and we're always telling our sells stories to rationalize justify what we do or what we what we believe. And it's like I'm always talking to people about the idea around not needing to be right and not needing to win and not needing to be certain or not needing to be comfortable, like life is uncertain, uncomfortable, unpredicted, unpredictable, unknown, life doesn't give a shit about your feelings or emotions or your bank balance or like, this is just this
is just where we are. And then in the middle of all of that stuff that we can't control, you know, and there will you know, this is the human existence. We hate uncertainty, but we live in uncertainty, you know, trying to navigate that the sense of calm and peace and purpose is it's like an ever present challenge, Like you and the news. You turn off the news, you have a better morning.
M Yes, indeed, indeed, it's so true. It's a we've forgotten yeah, right, we've forgotten who we are. And that sounds sounds silly and like what was he talking about? But when you have a moment of clarity, when your body feels the truth in that moment, you remember who you are, M M. And a couple of days ago, I was having an argument, friendly argument with my friend about something and I was adamant. I was like, I'm
right and you're wrong. I think they even said that right And now as we're as well as and maybe I was right, Actually I was no, I don't know if I was. Uh. And and now because we're having this conversation, because we're connecting, because we're in our hearts and it's a beautiful moment, I don't care whether I'm right wrong.
Difference in me.
I mean, you know, in that situation of a conversation with your friend, it's completely and totally irrelevant. But I'm now in a different state, Like my mind is calmer and I'm in venice. It's sunny, that's a good energy, and it's all good. But we can flip in and out, and the trick is to flip in and out less, so to stay in the heart centeredness more, not lose the mind. Don't lose the mind. Don't don't lose it. Because there's some interesting people out there, interesting things are
going on. You have to stay aware. Don't the light can blind you, don't let them find you.
Like before when I said, you know, but coming from a place of kindness and selflessness, and you went, now I disagree, and then you kind of I went, that
is so true, that is so true. It's like, oh, good, you just taught me something, or you opened a door in my brain where I'm going to look at that, you know differently, but I think you know to what we're talking about now, this you know, trying to find whatever contentment piece enlightenment or a version of that, or spiritual connection or you know, if we're talking about understanding through not necessarily through cognition or logic, but just building
this new understanding or having this experience. The challenge is for us, one of the challenges is yeah, and then you've got to make a few bucks, and you've got to pack the lunches for the kids, and then you've got to put petrol in the current, you know. So we can't ever really escape this, not that we need to, but you know, we're always dealing with the minutia and
the practicality of life beyond the spiritual. And then it's when you're in that life beyond the spiritual to try to maintain for me, anyway, the challenge is to not call the guy in the car next to me at the lights of because he cut me off. Right, It's like, you know, I'm now I'm just I don't anymore. But I used to where I would you know, I would turn into fucking Jekyl and Hyde in four seconds because it wasn't It was something that I was in and
out of, still in and out of. But yeah, trying to reconcile that that kind of I think it's almost like that equanimity concept, you know, being the calm in the chaos, you know, being able to be in the middle of something that's imperfect and messy and clunky, but not be determined by that in that moment.
Yes, and look, it's it's not easy because most of us are in survival mode. Yes, And it's like, you know, if you decide to go and live in a cave in the Himalayas for thirty years, then okay, you're going to become like a guru, right, Okay, But you know we don't live in care We live where bonds are dropping every day, we're angry with our partner, our kid has gone, and like painted the house blue. I mean, you know all these kind of crazy things. It's not
so simple. So you do it moment to moment, step by step, You start small, You make a commitment. Sometimes people say to me, Leon, how on earth did you manage to get from where you were to where you are? And in the answer is simple. I was committed to become free, and the only way to become free was to go down the spiritual route and face my pain and face my darkness. I was committed. If you are not committed to freeing yourself, you will never be free.
Yeah. I love that. Do you have like if if I asked you, do you have a spiritual practice or do you have any are there any kind of I don't know guiding principles that are yours?
So you know, I would say guiding principle is I know what it feels like when someone treats me disrespectfully. I know what that feels like, and it doesn't feel good. So I'm going to do my best, without perfection, to treat you with dignity and respect. Do I fail? I absolutely do. But I made a commitment to go down the road of love, to go down the road of kindness as best as I can, And there are times
like there's a time I gave a speech. It was a pretty large speech, and I was telling people to be kind, obviously, and then I got on the plane and the person on the plane, the student, is being really kind of rude to me. And my first reaction is to be routed back. And then I'm like, hold on, did you not just give a speech about being kind? Ye oh yeah, yeah I did. So I was like, okay, be kind. When the plane took off, I saw the
stewart crying. Something was going on with her, right, So my decision to be kind helped as opposed to my decision to be mean, which would have made things worse. Yes, yes, make a commitment to how you show up in the world. You know what it's like when people treat you disrespectfully. Don't do it back to the best of your ability.
Yeah, this is maybe a weird question. I want you to talk just for a minute, on your thoughts about Okay, so we've spoken about God, how do you feel about religion? For those who can't see, he's smiling, He's like, where the fuck do I start, That's what he's thinking.
I'm also thinking, how do I say this without having a fatwork put on my head.
Well, can I just say one thing right before? When you said if God is love, and it's spoken about in lots of theological texts in the Bible, which I'm most familiar with, it definitely says God is love. And then I look around at religions and I'm like, well, if God is love, then religion is not love because a lot of what we see through religion is hate. And I'm like, it's almost the antithesis. It's almost like
religion is the opposite of God. And I'm not naming any religion even when within Christianity, and I spent a lot of time in church after I grew up, I became a fundamental born again I did the whole thing. I preached on the altar, I was in boots and all right, and I am probably the least perfect person that was in that church. But I saw so much shit which was not godly. I'm like, oh, this is just Oh, we're just role playing this thing here, you know.
So for me, that's why I asked that question, because it almost seems like a juxtaposition.
So I would say that of all the religions that I'm aware of, there is absolutely love that flows through those religions. Absolutely. I would also say that the religions have been co opted by man, and man, if man is not careful, goes down the road of power. So they have co opted these religions in order to wield power. But that doesn't mean that the ethos and the everyday person who is connected to that religion isn't connected to
it because of the love. They may very well be, but they have been weaponized.
Yeah, it's so interesting. I've spoken about this probably too much on this show, but you think about the fact that there's like twelve major religions and like four thousand minor religions, yet almost every religion goes where the one true religion. I mean, even if you just unpack that logically. You know, one of the things I was thinking about when I was watching your show last night, the kindness within on Netflix everyone. I was thinking about, how do
you be? This is not a loaded question. I was genuinely thinking about this because I think, when I'm talking to a thousand people on a stage, how do I not perform? Like? How do I be? I don't want to bring the PERSONA want to be the bloke. I want to be the person I want to be, Craig. I want to be authentic, real, imperfect. But because also I have these skills where I can talk and present
and razzle, dazzle and be funny and tell stories. How do you be with a film crew all the while trying to find some sense of direction or spirituality or enlightenment while Brian's over there with a clipboard and Dave's got the camera and someone else is holding a fucking mike near you or whatever. How do you like? That must have been just, I don't know, at least interesting to navigate and try not to be a character on a show.
So firstly, you very quickly forget there's a camera there, right right. You always know right in the back of your mind, because you're like, there's a camera. But I pretend the camera's just a character, it's just a friend, it's just someone there whatever, And I just go as open as and as genuine as I possibly can. That doesn't mean that there isn't some performance, right, of course,
it's a television show. I'm introverted generally, I don't like speaking to people for five hours, right, But in the show I have to. Yeah, because it's a show. Yeah, but I'm still being genuine. It's like it's like a magnified version of that part of my personality, which is extroverted. Yeah, but it is. It is on some level it has to be a performance because there are times when I wake up in the morning and I don't want to show up. I don't want to the work. I'm like,
just just leave me alone. But I have to. I can't be like, well, sorry, guys, you know I'm not working today, Just you know, just leave me alone. I have to do what I have to do. So on some level it is a performance, but it's a performance based on who I truly am. You know, I can't create someone that I'm not. I'm not acting to create
something I'm not, but I am. I am magnifying who I am, so that it's a the people who enjoy watching it, right, because if my short as my introverted self, people are going to be like, why am I watching this english Man just being introverted. It's like, so I've expanded and magnified my my, my, you know, extrovert itself. And also I get to have these cool conversations with people, and I get to ask these really cool questions and philosophies and learn about them.
And yeah, yeah, that's really valid because you need at the same time, you need to or you hope, to create something that people want to keep watching. You don't want people at the five minute mark going, oh my god, let's watch Tom Cruise or whatever it is. You know what I mean, Like you want people plugged in. I, like I said, I intended to just kind of get a snapshot, and I kept watching and watching. So we've got a few minutes. I would like three hours, but
we've got a few minutes. What about This is kind of a cheesy question, but I'm generally curious in that particular, specially anyway on Netflix the kindness within? Was there a single person that impacted you more than others, or that you were drawn to more than others, or left some kind of impact on you.
Absolutely, there was a homeless guy who I I would go up to people in the street and I would say, can I stand your house tonight? Obviously, wouldn't just be like that. I'd chat with them before and most of them would say no, obviously, and some of them will say yes. And this guy, I didn't realize it was homeless. I asked him, and he didn't look homeless, and he said, look, I'm really so I'm homeless. So, you know, felt a lot of shame about that. I was doing obviously a
social experiment. I'm not homeless. And I was about to walk off. He turns around, well, you know what, if you want, you can stay with me tonight. I'll feed you, i'll protect you, and i'll give you some clothes. Wow. And I was like what I was like? All right? So I ended up doing just that, and he taught me two profound lessons. Less Number one, kindness is free. If a homeless man with nothing can be kind, then you have absolutely zero excuse. Second, true wealth is not
in our wallets, It's in our hearts. Now. Am I saying here saying give away your money?
No?
Of course.
Not.
Am I saying don't become successful?
No?
Of course. Not am I saying don't love money? No money is important. But what I am saying is the truest of wealth is how you show up, how you true people, is how you inspire people. That's how you make people feel. And I learned those two lessons from a homeless man. And he would always say to me, he would say, Leon, you changed my life because we ended up putting him up in an apartment and sending him back to school. But the reality is I said to him, no, man, no, it is you who changed
my life, and he did. He absolute feeling of that somatic feeling inside my soul, my heart, my body of what he did for me that day never leaves. It's always there.
Yeah, I think you met God, bro.
Yeah, I think you're right. I absolutely did earlier than I thought because I wasn't aware of it at that time. But you know what, that's exactly what happened.
Yeah, you met God.
Perfect.
I'm writing that down. I think that might be the title. Hey, listen, I love you. You're amazing. I'm so grateful for your time. Congratulations on your stuff and continued continued growth. I'm not going to win. Wish you continued success, but continue growth and learning and connection with people. Yeah, it's been nice getting an insight into you and your life and your journey. And thanks so much for being on the You project. Yeah, no wise, thanks so much for having me. Thanks everyone,