I'll get a team. It's the Youth Project, it's doctor or should I say professor jess you'll come up or Jessica I should have found that out. I'm going to go with and Professor Tiff is here. How are you very good?
Thank you? Craig Harper, how are you?
Oh look, I'm just bursting out of my bloody flannel shirt and I'm in a black T shirt because it's so warm in the thriving metropolis Ofthampton. If you were an academic, you were a professor of something, would it be punchology? Would it be punching people in the face? Would it be pugilism? What would you have a PhD? And if you were heading down that route.
I am not sure. You know what's funny you say that I just did a stupid post on my Instagram on my Facebook noting that I've just become aware how often I drop my phone and I wondered what my baseline was with reflexes prior to over a decade of training in a sport where handie coordination and dexterity and reflexes was at the really heard of what you're training.
Do you know what's funny about you is like you're out and about and you're a bit of a tomboy. We know that. And by a bit, I mean a lot, and by a lot I mean mostly. But you know that. But yeah, you are not what people think when we go, I'm bringing one of my friends or tiff showing up to do that. She's forty, she's a lady. By lady, I mean she'll punch you in the face nine times before you know what's going on. So there's that. It's you know, Professor Jessica might have her way with you.
She could probably armbar you real naked, choke you, submit you. I mean she role plays an academic, but she's probably extremely capable in a one on one scenario, Am I right? Prof Well, no.
I'm feeling really intimidated by Tiffany right now because I have.
A terrible hand eye coordination.
I played pickleball for the first time yesterday and was pretty abysmal, though I had fun being on a giant tennis table situation. But at the end my husband said, oh, you know, yeah, you're all right. All you have to do is work on your hand eye coordination. And I think if it's if I'm this old and it hasn't happened. That's never happening. But I also am not really ready to for a hand to hand combat, so hopefully that's not part of the brief on this podcast.
No, no, I think I think you'll be all right. Okay, last one for you, Tive before we have the proper with the grown up in the room.
Definitely, it's not one I didn't think.
So if you had had to head down a field of research, I know you don't want don't want to, but if you had to, would it be psych would it be or would it be something else?
Ah, excellent question. It would be something around human behavior and psychology, I believe.
Yeah, well, endlessly fascinating specimens.
It's hard to resist.
Yeah, yes, you've got so much work with I mean there's us two for.
As strat that'll give me busy for years.
I mean, speaking of issues, have you seen the profs bio? So now, Jessica, do I call you jess or Jessica fine es? Ye? Well, give you up, Thank you and welcome. Sorry about that prelude, but that's how we roll. How are you?
I am doing it? Okay, thank you. I'm excited to chat with you this morning.
Yeah, are we beating the business meeting or the workman?
If we had some sort of offacially empty measuring smiles, you'd already be ahead of the curve based on a very grim staff meeting.
So yes, all good.
Don't we all get excited about a good staff meeting. Aren't you lucky? We don't have those two?
Sure, and they would be a whirlwind Wooden.
Although do you do get a bit scared when I say I want to catch up with you and I just want to catch up with you. You're like, what what about? I'm like, yeah, it's okay, don't worry.
You can't say that as.
You sleep that night. Hey, doc jess all of it. Could you just tell rather than me read something that will do your head in? Could you just tell my audience who you are and what you do and what you're about. Please? Thank you. Yeah.
I'm a professor of psychology and I'm at UNSW in Sydney, and my primary research passions that my students and I do some experimental and clinical research are in the area of obsessive compulsive disorder OCD and hoarding disorder and anxiety disorders more broadly, so we do research and I also do some teaching and training as part of my role at UNSW.
Perfect what's the question that you never get asked on an interview or a podcast or TV or radio that you thought I'd wish Because I feel like people that I interview that are interviewed a lot, and we're other two thousand interviews in write or podcast in so I try not to be too boring and predictable and reparitive. Appreciate a question that you think I wish someone would ask me this because this is a really interesting part of this area that people don't think about or don't understand.
What might that question be?
All right, Oh, this might not be exactly what you're after, This might be a little bit of a turn, but this is what I was thinking about this morning on my dog walk, so you can get a little a
window into that. I like when people in podcasts, when when I'm reading any kind of biography, or when they talk about anything they've changed their mind on or something they've evolved or have a difference of opinion, because we all get very stuck in particular viewpoints and become, as you said, quite predictable.
So I was thinking on the dog walk.
This morning how a lot of the work I've done has been in in psychology, and my training with a lot of the greats of this century in terms of people that I've had the good fortune of working with, has been in cognitive behavioral versions of psychotherapy, and like traditionally those versions of psychotherapy are very focused on the here and now, very focused on what are your patterns right now that are working for you aren't How can we look at how you're thinking and what you're doing,
and how can we creatively shift those in a way that's going to work for you and you're going to be feel more fulfilled in your life or less symptoms of whatever you're feeling right And in part like that whole approach is a reaction to older models of psychology and psychotherapy, like Freudian approaches. And you can picture, you know, something you'd see on TV, someone lying on a couch and tell me about when you were a baby and how to do what was your toilet training?
Like that kind of thing, And too much.
Focus on the past, too much focused on the past and your parents and how you were raised, and not enough focused on what's happening for you today and how can we help you So I guess what's been interesting in the last couple of years I've been reflecting is that the way that we are evolving as a field in terms of CBT and the specific stuff that my students and I've been doing in my lab has involved kind of incorporating more of those stories and elements of
your autobiographical past, and incorporating more of your early childhood and what happened to you, but still keeping the focus on how that's impacting you today. So I think that's been sort of interesting. And then, you know, research is mesearch. I've been thinking a little bit about, you know, my early childhood or my past, or even my family's past, and how that has impact in.
The way I live in the world today.
So I don't feel like we've totally gone back to the days of Freud and really blaming all our in neuroses on unconscious processes.
And our parents. But I do think that there's become.
Greater clinical wisdom in taking some time to appreciate and understand some of those childhood experiences and even revisiting them and approaches that we're doing right now, particularly imagery based approaches, and really immersing ourselves in some of those very formative experiences and how they still impact how we're living in the world today.
Love it. I love research may search too, to what I'm going to ask a few philosophical ones that are very self indulgent, just because these are things I think about and I'm interested in, to what extent can we understand stand ourselves when obviously the Craig experience of Craig is subjective, not objective, And to what extent can I be aware knowing that the thing I'm trying to understand largely my mind is the tool that I'm using for analysis.
It's a bit of a mind fuck, right, It's like, well, I'm trying to understand me using me as the revealer of truth and insight. Yep.
Absolutely, And I think that is the part of the potential magic of therapy is that it's not you sitting in a room by yourself analyzing yourself, which I think you would be very needs or gazing very leading to rumination. And we all reflect a little bit on ourselves, and
I think some of that can be healthy. But I think part of the magic is when you have another person who you trust, who has training or even sometimes a good friend of social support that you are able to integrate what their perspective is and actually receive that feedback, actually listen to what they say instead of just waiting
for your turn to talk about yourself. So I think in genuine good friendships, relationships, and in good therapy, that's the only window we have outside of our own as you said, Psyche, and the fact that we live in our own bodies, in our minds, and we're very much main character energy for ourselves. But if you are able to genuinely have these conversations with people, I think that's where the shifts happen.
That's where you can.
Start doing things, doing experiments, trying things differently, hearing different perspectives, and subtly changing maybe the way you think or the way you view the world, which is what it's all about, in my opinion, is not being completely stuck in one way forever.
And I think also being comfortable with the idea that this is what I think, but it could be wrong. Yeah, this is what I believe wrong, Yeah, because I've been wrong thousands of times, So why would I think that today will next week, month, year. I'm not going to be wrong at least hundreds of times because I am going today.
And we call that cognitive flexibility, and it's one of the key ingredients to being able to have.
Change, and sometimes people don't have it.
Some of the people we work with, due to the nature of their disorder, whether it's severe OCD or severe boarding or severe delusion psychosis, they.
Don't have that ability to.
Reflect on their own thinking and go, I am not always one hundred percent right, So maybe I should just listen a little and think about another perspective and give it some chance to change. And then the question is what do you do with people who are so rigidly, absolutely sure that their reality, whether it's a delusion or they're sure they need to save all their bodily materials, or they're sure that they're sink in the public toilet is absolutely.
Contaminated and going to kill them.
What creative ways can you find into someone is reality is that rigid and that strong, to start to get them to challenge their thought processes, like you have a more healthy version of that. I recognize that I have been wrong and I might be wrong again, and let me listen to what other people have to.
Say, yes, yes, And I guess the other part of that is really genuinely being open to that versus just nodding your head and going, all right, I'll go along and see Jess on bloody Tuesdays. But yeah, I'm only doing it because it's kind of mandated or I have to, or it keeps my family, you know, quiet, or I think there's like a level of courage involved in to open the door on that fear and that anxiety and that overthinking rumination whatever, and go what actually is that about?
Like that's almost like the symptom, not the problem, Like what's driving that? What's underneath all of this behavior that is unhealthy for me? And I'm driving myself nuts. Probably I don't mean that literally but perhaps metaphor. But yeah, being brave enough to go I really want to understand me is a little bit terrifying, perhaps.
So cterrifying, I think, gree It takes courage and openness, and also for the person who's trying to help you do that, it takes them not pushing you further into a box.
And then we know that if I'm saying that's.
Absolutely wrong or you need to think differently, or I'm right, you're just gonna get in a defensive crouch.
And you know, maybe call Tiffany over to punch me.
Like, it doesn't really work, It just makes people more So, how can you genuinely help someone in your life who feels that way, or a client and not push them further into a really strong version of the world. How can you be curious and open minded and support them enough to say, well, all right, maybe there's a small chance that this isn't true, and maybe I can start thinking a little bit differently.
Yeah, that's my guy too, and I'm backed into a psychological corner. Or I just called tiff to bring a violent self over to the situation. I want to Yeah, I think. I think also, like when what we think and what we think is right in our beliefs and our ideas are intertwined with our identity. When you question my thoughts, my ideas, my reality, you're questioning who I am. You're questioning my identity and how dare you? So fuck you?
And you know, there's there's that. It's like it's a very multi layered kind of thing to be able to go what if you know, Like I grew up in a religious house, right, so I had this whole very conditioned upbringing church school, connected to the church, parents, connected to both friends, family, so very churchy environment. So everything that I was taught in inverted commas, programmed, conditioned, you know, to believe. I never really questioned that because this was
the truth that we lived in. You know, this is the truth. And then you don't know any other echo chamber, or you don't know any other version of the truth because you've never set foot in that world, so to speak,
or you've never really lived there. And then one day you might go and whether or not it's with you know, barracking for an AFL club or religion, or being a vegan or you know, whatever, it is that ideology with which you are interconnected, and perhaps that represents you to go, Fuck, what if I've been wrong for thirty years?
What if I was that moment for you? With your religious upbringing.
Well, I mean I went on a bit of a journey. So I was just raised in Catholicism, which is pretty boring, but it's also it's kind of shout out to my Catholic friends that I meant to I love you, but it's pretty arrogant. It's like where right, everyone else is wrong. But then a lot of churches and a lot of religions like that. And by the way, I don't believe
whatever anyone else says, you know, da da da. And so I went to Basically it's a you know, it's a pretty boring assembly of people every Sunday at this time, and then you go to school, you know. So it wasn't particularly inspiring, but it was indoctrinating. And so I believed if I did this, if I died with a mortal sin on my soul, for example, I'm going to burn in an eternal lake and fire forever. And I'm
fucking ten. I'm like, this is fucking terrifying. And this isn't a thought or an idea, this is an inverted comma's truth. And then I came out of that, and then I you know, I didn't go to church for
a while, and then I met some people. Anyway, I ended up being all me because I was kind of god curious, like I didn't know what was what, if anything was what, right, But then I went down an evangelical Christian path, as you been from the States would have I'm sure been very aware of, right, Yeah, and then that's a whole different world, and it's like, oh no, this is, this is amazing, this is and.
Then I rude a joy in it and a lot of connection.
It's very subdountable then, and so a lot of things that weren't in Catholicism were in where I was anyway. There was joy, there was connection, there was love, there was compassion, there was understanding, you know, but also there was very much indoctrination too, where hey, it's not okay you can't go see your parents in the country on
Sunday because you need to be here. I'm like, but I'm the only kid and they're my only parents, and they're not super young, so I need to know, like, you need to be faithful, you need to be all this stuff. And then you're like, oh, So by the time I really really started to think, oh maybe some or all of this is bullshit, I was probably thirty Wow, you know, and then a sort.
Of single moment or just overtime skepticism.
I just saw, I feel like I'm being psychoanalyzed if and I couldn't I couldn't be happier, I couldn't be hang on, can I lie down? Yeah? So I mean, for me, there was just a lot of inconsistency between what got taught on the poolpit and what I saw, like the words and the actions of the people who were sharing the words weren't aligned. I'm like, hey, bro, you say this, but you do that. And I was ultra respectful. I was just I was a good little boy, like I was at church all the time. I preached
at church. I preached from when I was twenty three. I ran how I did a whole lot of stuff. I was in boots and all right, and I believe. I believe that I was in the right place, doing the right thing, and the things that were being taught were true. And upon reflection, a lot of that's changed. Some of it's changed. Not everything that I experienced was bad or good, but yeah, where you're almost guilted into like we don't want you to think, we want you
to believe. And if you think critically, you're a backslater or that's the devil, that's the enemy. That's all these words that were used around my curiosity and me going hey, like I see we're saying this, but we're doing that, And it's basically a told don't worry. Yeah, you're not spiritually evolved enough or you're not you know, so all of that and then for me to actually step away from that and go, what if all of this or
some of this my experience anyway. I'm not saying the Bible per se, but what if some of this is bullshit? And that was terrifying for me to know if that was oh yeah, if that was true, and I went this could be bullshit or some of it could be, then maybe I'll spend eternity in a lake of fire or all of these fear based controlling kind of how do we control people while we help.
You lose your community? WHI should become story too.
Right, Yes, exactly exactly. So I think that whole thing of being able to truly figure out what you think in the middle of what you truly actually think and believe, in the middle of what you've been taught to think and taught to believe, because we're not taught, even in schools, we're not really taught how to think, how to critic analyze things, how to independently come to our own conclusions. Maybe they are now, I'm not sure. When I went to school, we'll just told this is what it is,
this is how it is, don't ask any questions. There'll be an exam on Friday.
Yeah, and it's going to be such a more important school skill than ever I know. With the I volunteered taught ethics at my daughter's school in primary school. They have a program that that's one of the main focus moment if they aims the program is to teach little kids to critically think about their own philosophy and how to examine their own worldview and how to talk to people.
And it seems really valuable. But you're right, in general, that's going to be what's left when all the other kinds of tasks are done by AI is some critical analysis and finding truth and finding your own truth and a mid a very confusing, rapidly changing reality.
Right, Yeah, yeah, March.
Curiosity is the other thing. That's another thing I've been really interested in lately. When I was in the States on sabbatical last year, I saw a neuroscientist from Oregon Prison and he was talking about how novelty is such an important feature for learning in the human brain, and that when things are novel it actually encourages neuroplastic plasticity and you learn more rapidly. And a similar paper about how curiosity is so important in terms of those kinds
of levels of change and how your brain functions. And I've been thinking about that in terms of therapy, but also more broadly, as you're saying about how important it is to engage people's curiosity and have some novelty and get them to think about things in a slightly different way.
And I think that's one of our biggest.
Weapons as humans, is to is to have curiosity and to notice discrepancies and be interested in other people's perspectives. And when you're not interested and you're not curious, it can leave you very stock.
Yeah, yeah, I think I agree, And I think sometimes we get into a like an operational kind of personal operational groundhog Day, where we just do what we've always done. It's not amazing, but it's less terrifying than doing something where there's uncertainty and unfamiliarity. So it's a three out of ten over here, but I know what's coming, so I'll stay in the three rather than strive for the nine,
you know, or whatever that is. And yeah, like that, I think that's a little bit personality or genetically dependent. I'm not sure, but like I've realized at twenty two, I didn't want a job. I wanted to work, but I didn't want a boss. I didn't want to work for an organization. And I started my own company at twenty six and I've not had a job since. But then I look at other people and it's not that they're lazy or worse or it's.
Just that risk diverse.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, this would be the worst. Like my life where you know, it's like I don't know how much money I'll make this week or this month. I never know that because I don't have a wage, I don't have sick pay, I don't have a holiday pay. I don't you know. And that's cool. I chose that, and I thrive in this kind of slightly unknown space, you know. But for men.
Tolerance of uncertainty, we would.
Say, well, yeah, and I think we are in many ways many of us probably me with other things too, but we are somewhat addicted to comfort and familiarity and certainty and predictability because we like to know what's coming. But that's not consistent with life or the world, because the world is not comfortable or consistent or predictable or
familiar or the events exactly like. So we live in a dynamic world where shit's happening and evolving and changing all the time, and if we can't adapt, that's problematic.
That's definitely problematic.
And part of what we do is try and for generally speaking, for anxiety disorders across the board, cultivate a different attitude towards uncertainty. Like if you feel a little uncertain or a little unsure, sometimes that's a sign of excitement. Do you want to know the holding of every movie that you're watching? Do you want to know how your
life's going to turn out if you could know? Isn't there something about roller coasters and scary movies and going on a first date that's thrilling to not knowing everything so instead of just everything I don't know and I can't predict is very bad and scary. Like you said, I think you have more of a temperamental tolerance of that, so you naturally are more open to experience and.
Those kinds of novelty.
But for other people, kind of encouraging them to not need everything to be predictable.
But beyond anxiety disorders.
I think you can kind of stunt to yourself, you know, like not reach your full potential because you are so afraid of taking some risks or dealing with some uncertainty, or putting yourself out there in some kind of way. I mean that's something that I try and work on as well. It's very easy to stay put, but there's a cost to that too, right, Yeah, one what is.
Do you spoke before? I think you said something like reflection and rumination? What is the I'm sure there's no clear line, but the space or the difference between healthy reflection and unhealthy or obsessive rumination. What's that scale look like?
Yeah, well, I think you underestimate the nerdiness and precision of psychology researchers, because indeed they have operationalized that and discriminated behind by that and created two different measurement scales to try and tease it apart. But basically they try and look at the difference between brooding rumination that is focused on like why did that happen to me?
What's wrong with me?
Why have I not got promoted? Why am I still meeting duds on my dating app?
What's wrong? Why didn't have such bad luck in this game?
Right?
So that's brooding and the kind of reflection that can actually be good and that would be more a little bit along the lines of what we're talking about, like what did I bring to that relationship in the past, What could I do a little bit differently? What is my strongest features? And what kinds of things tend to go wrong? Have I noticed any patterns in my life?
You know?
So that kind of you don't want to just be an unexamined life where you don't do any reflection. But you notice that line, which again is on a measure of self report measure where you're not doing anything constructive. You're not reflecting in a way that's constructive. You're reflecting in a way that's just repetitive. It's focused on the past, and it tends to be very negative kind of just without answers analyzing why me is the very the very basic version of that.
So, how can we as.
Humans not get too preoccupied with the past and too stuck in a rut and particularly feeling sorry for ourselves and brooding, but you know, continue to have some reflections on what we're doing. And I think part of that is also combining it with action. How do you have that where you can you have these great conversations and have some reflections with people that you care about trust, and then also you go for a run, you try a new sport, you put yourself out there in a
new book, report book, project. Whatever your passions are, you actually do them, and you're living your life consistent with your fat flat values, not just.
Yapping about it.
You applied pickable, that's what you do.
Yeah, I guess, and you hope not to break your leg and have a middle aged injury.
But so far, so good.
I probably shouldn't tell you on my psychology researcher, and I'm submitting my pH day in a few weeks, so forget all of that.
Wait, I think I did see that. Actually, yeah, well I must have blocked it out. No, no, no, allowed to ask you your thesis topic?
Or is that I've got the old plights on I'm standing at the I'm standing in front of you, impressed. Yes, some mine is around medea, perception and meta accuracy.
Across the nerdiness of psychologists.
Yeah, yeah, pretty much like I'm not as a cross as you are, of course, but understanding. Yeah, like I've always been fascinated with this is a weird story, but I'm going to tell you the story. So I've been riding motorbikes my whole life since I was five and five, six seven, and started riding on the road at eighteen. So I ride well, I drive a bit more now, but I'd ride a lot, and as does tiff Is,
a fellow motorcyclist. Of course she is. She rides bikes and punches people, and she does a lot more than that everyone else. But I remember prof in the early days, when someone would come for a ride on the back of the bike, I would take them on a ride. I wouldn't do anything silly. We just you know, would go out for twenty minutes, thirty minutes, if you know, if I had lived in the country for a while. So I take them down a country road, or I live now near the beach, or take them along the
beach and as pleasant as I could make it. And some people would get back and they are like, oh my god, that is the best fucking thing I've ever done. And their brains lit up like a Christmas tree, the biochemistries going nuts. Their mind is racing. They absolutely we get back and they go, can we go again? Right?
Yep?
At the other end of the scale, you know what I'm going to say, I'd do the exact same thing with a different person, just as safe, just as beautiful scenery, just as careful. They'd get back, safe and sound, they'd get off, they'd go, that's the most terrifying shit I've ever done. Don't get that motorbike near me ever again. I will never do that again. It's like, oh, they just went through the same activity, but they had a
completely different self created experience. And that used to that was almost like the genesis for me, wondering about how we can do the same thing, or be in the same room, or be in the same conversation, or have what looks to be the same experience but on a
personal level is completely different. Like that, understanding how we create our own experiences, you know, like with your person with anxiety washing their hands in a public bath, you know, sink or whatever, and it's like their story is I'm going to get this and that, and then someone else washes their hand, walks out, washes their hands on their genes and doesn't give a shit. Like, try to comprehend the minds of others is such a challenge.
It's such a challenge theory of mind and understanding other people. Yeah, and I was thinking I feel like I'm kind of I was imagining being taken on this bike ride, and I was thinking, I think it's both my downfall and my superpower. Then I'm always in the middle with these things, like I feel like I would, not knowing myself, think oh now I need to, you know, ride motorcycles. I need to be like, sign me up. But I also would enjoy it and think that was really beautiful and
interesting and fun. I'm glad I tried that, and now I'm just going to move on with my next thing. And I come from I'm, you know, like a fairly standard upper middle class background in the States, but I have very my my two grandfathers were both criminals and had a lot of really impulsive, terrible behavior.
And so I think about how now I'm such a middle of.
The road person in my personal life with that kind of thing, like always the voice of moderation, which you know, no, it's like it's useful. It's useful as a psychologist, and it's useful in terms of talking to people, but it's also yeah, I don't identify with either of those extremes that you were describing of your your people on the bike.
I think I would love the bike ride.
And also I know I'm not cut out to be a motorcycle rider like you and Tiff.
She doesn't know, does she diff miking an assumption based on zero experience.
Right, you're right, I did pose with the motorcycle when I was little. My uncle had one. But yeah, I've never really written one properly.
Having two grandfathers that were criminals and knowing that, like has that, has that influenced you in any way to think or behave or choose going, Oh, did you subconsciously or date down think? I don't want to become that. I wonder if it's genetic. I wonder if did you ever go I definitely don't want to be a crook. So there's that.
Yeah, I mean I definitely think about it, not just in terms of myself, but in terms of my whole you know, family history, and more recently because I uncovered more information about one of my grandfathers and it is kind of disturbing, And you're right, you do try and because as you said, we all have this identity that's core to ourselves and then influenced by all these features.
So I do feel like this shifting puzzle in my mind always trying to reconcile the different bits and how they landed, how they did, and seeing different bits of impulsivity in myself or my sister. But that is very tame compared to, you know, historical factors.
So I do think it's interesting.
And I'm thinking about, you know, kind of a book project working on some of some of these ideas of identity, not just your own identity, but that kind of epigenetics, bigger identity of your family and what parts of that form you're what you're fighting against, or what you've ignored. I don't know that sounded a bit like gibberish. Obviously still in the brainstorming phase.
Now, if I don't at least talk a bit, or we don't at least talk a bit about OCD hoarding and anxiety, all of my listeners who tuned in and like, get to the fucking topic.
See, I think have been all along. But that's a metal level. You can put that in your PhD.
On a metal level.
We have been we have. We've been circling around it, we've been hovering above it. Firstly, did you fall into this because an opportunity, this kind of area of research, there was an opportunity. It was already existing, and they went, hey, would you like to be involved in this? And you went yep, or did something like what was the stimulus for you to become the world renowned researcher that you are, which you are in this space? Like what started?
I think there's a clinical story here and I'll also maybe a personal story.
So the clinical story is my very.
First client who I was assigned at this famous anxiety clinic I worked in in Boston. So I was, you know, only would I have been like twenty three or twenty four maybe at the time, and my very first client, and she had a severe OCD And as soon as I was assigned her, I called her to make a first appointment.
I was very proud of myself. I hung up the phone.
Then the nurse administrator who ran the program came over and said, she doesn't want you as as a therapist, so that was not a win. But anyways, she did come in and see me and we had this amazing transformative therapy experience and the nature of her psychopathology, the nature for OCD, plus the huge immense benefit I saw on doing exposure and response prevention, which is the gold standard treatment for OCD.
I mean, I was pretty hooked at that point.
So from then on I was very interested in OCD, and also then began working on hoarding disorder, which was considered at the time to be related. And I had amazing mentors who wrote the manual literally on hoarding disorder and ran group treatment programs where the hoarding clients that I saw were just extremely quirky, and I'm kind of a quirky person. They were just a little bit different,
a little bit interesting, very curious, kind of unusual. It's a hard disorder to work with in some ways, but it's really also quite rewarding and interesting to me. So I find those two disorders did fit with me in terms of my personality and what I liked, I mean, depression, anxiety. They're all interesting and hugely burdens them in today's society, so very important.
But I think I found my niche.
But then from another perspective, thinking about like I almost was an English professor. I love literature. I still do. I read like a book a week in three different book clubs. I'm obsessed with fiction, and I think, well, I feel like I kind of picked a version of psychology where there is this story and the story about the person, and that is centered in a way that is still all very cohesive.
With who I am.
So those are my two different kinds of maybe related things of why I ended up doing being an OCD and hoarding researcher, and I love it. It's just always the most incredible interesting clients and the research is really interesting. I have wonderful students who have very clever ideas, and so it's it's fantastic.
If you had to profile you or assess you or evaluate you, what would you say about you?
I would say, probably.
In terms of psychopathology or in terms of personality or both. Like I would say, I'm, you know, an introverted person but also a very people oriented social person, and so it's kind of on that border there, being quite chatty and extrovert as you can see, but also known as
being a bit shy. I would say in terms of disorders I identify with and not that I'm diagnosed with anything, and I don't think that I am, but I identify again with like a little bit more of that chaotic kind of excited ady HD type profile and being really interested in lots of things, not always the most super
organized person. Although I end up getting things done that are important to me and doing them very well, it's just more of a I have a lot of colleagues who are extremely organized and perfectionistic, and that is not my jam really, So that would be my general representation of myself.
Have you got advice for I feel like this is for Tiff and I and three million other Australians to be able to focus better on things that we have to do but don't really want to do. If you know, when you've got to prep for stuff, how you'll sit
down and then you get distracted four times in seven minutes. Yes, And I'm like, I can go down a rabbit hole prof with stuff that I can look up, and it's three hours, and I've been writing something that I'm all about and I'm so into it, and I'm disappointed that I've got to stop. Yep, even now with my own research, like I've I'm submitting papers and doing all the stuff right,
and I sit down I read my own paper. I want to punch myself in the face, like totally, I'm like, oh my god, you know, and something you've read so much and so you're not really reading it. You're just looking at it, and yeah, how do we I think all of us struggle to focus with things that we need to focus on or with sometimes.
Yeah, absolutely, and I of course have many of my own struggles with that, and my boarding clients.
In particular are known to have struggles with that.
So my favorite fun new thing that we've been doing is looking at imagery based approaches, and particularly one that one of my PhD students that I've been looking at called process imagery, which is kind of using imagery a little bit as a stronger and more powerful emotionally enhancing tool for motivation.
So, for example, if you're working on I don't know, like you have to.
Clean your room or you have to write your chapter for your PhD, you actually visualize yourself in that present, in that future moment, a week from now, a year from now, whatever it is, and think about it really in detail, what does it look like, what does it feel like, what's around you, and pre experience the reward as much as you can.
Really savor it, lean into.
It, feel it, and then working backwards, have someone interview you. All right, Craig, I'm interviewing you. Now it's a year from now, and you've submitted your PhD, You've finished. How does that feel? Imagine yourself getting your diploma, meeting with your supervisor, partying like having such a great time. Now, want to know, Craig, what did you do and the intervening year since since our podcast together to get you to that point? And you would tell me now, like
what you think happened in that intervening year. Well, I scheduled time, I got a coach, I blocked this off, I quit this thing.
What did you do?
Because you probably know.
The steps involved, but allowing yourself to feel and immerse yourself in that idea what it would be like, and then working backwards to get the steps. It has been sort of interesting and some preliminarily cool data around that idea.
And people are using it in other disorders as well.
Instead of just that slog of beating yourself up and you know, I should be doing this and I should be doing that and getting ruminating about it, trying to shift into that more proactive visualizing moode. I mean, some people aren't visual imagers, they have a fantasia or they're just not into it, so there may not work for you.
But that's one tip I have.
Can I ask you what sem thank you? That was amazing? What sayings to be a random question, but I want to bring it back. Do you think the idea of tol poppy syndrome, which aust Australia talks about a lot, do you think that's one? Is it a real phenomena? And is it more prevalent here than in the stites? Because I'm going somewhere with it.
Yes, I think it's real. Yes, I think it's more prevalent than in the States. And I don't think it's all bad. I think there's something about the modesty and the community or to nature of it that I've grown to like and appreciate versus the grandstanding that can be encouraged in the US and the very egocentric individualistic I mean, it's still a Western individualistic nation here, obviously, but I think there's a little bit more community and don't big
note yourself, which I've come to notice. I feel like I got pulled up once at the at of a book club meeting saying something that sound a little show offye, and I got kind of put in my box and I didn't feel good about it.
But afterwards, I'm sort of like.
Yeah, maybe we could all do it a little bit less of that mmm.
And also your intention with what you're saying, where you're coming from, that's not necessarily going to be their experience, right. You know? What's that? The false consensus effect where we think that people think like us, and so I got well, I think I'm giving tips, some like advice or some helpful advice or support or guidance, but her experience is unwanted criticism, and you know, and and I'm like then
I'm like, well, how on earth did you get? You know, It's like then there's this whole thing between what I think is happening in my mind, what I think I'm giving, and what you are actually getting. You know, yeah, exactly.
You would have with Tiff, given the relationship you seem to have, would be make all the difference between completely continuing to misunderstand if you could hash it out with her, that's the magic.
Yeah, we've had our moments, We've never have we.
Turned into like team counseling, couples counseling from our original on the couch therapy for you.
Only well, well, she's got a boy who's much better than me. So it's definitely not couples. He's a nine, I'm a four. I'm I'm working up the difference between
like this, you know, tap puppy stuff. But I always feel like I'm a bit self loathing, and when I do something well, I don't want to say to the world world I did something well, because I think when I was young, I got shut down a lot, right, so I recognized that I did a good thing or that was a good outcome, you know, But it's almost like I don't want to tell anyone if people find out that's cool, And because we can be so critical
of others. And I when I was young, like in my twenties, I built a company and it did quite well, and that seemed to bother a lot of people, Like you know how everyone cheers you on in Australia, some people till you succeed. They fucking I'm like, okay, sorry, it did well. You know, I'll keep it to myself.
More So, there's that, you know, like not wanting to be the self loaver, of course, or not wanting to self sabotage, but at the same time being aware what's that other thing as it shout and freuden that where people want to see you fail. They celebrate failia and your pipe like that's real, that's real, that's real.
And I don't think that's any worse in Australia than anywhere else in the world. But I get your point about how do we find a way that we can share our successes in a way that's genuine and authentic and not feeling like we have to hide our another whatever the other class she is, hide our light under a bushel or whatever. But also not feel that there's this constant rates towards self promotion because I feel like, I don't know about you, but this self promotion that is now required on social.
Media, it makes me feel very h It's just.
People constantly like and thank you everyone for this comment, and I feel pressed to do it because we're encouraged to do it professionally promote our stuff and promote our students' work.
But I feel like, ifever I look on LinkedIn, it just is too much.
So what's the balance between people being so self you know, so self aware and constantly promoting their new business and we're so great and look at how we did our remodeling and we're so amazing, versus being able to genuinely say this was a success and I'm proud of this thing that I built, and not have people be negative. I mean, there's some negativity that's going to come from comparison. Right If you did well with your business, some people read that as.
And I didn't do well enough with mine. I am not a success.
And there's part of that that you have to just let go because you can't control other people's reactions to you. You just have to have your own authentic reactions of what you did and let go of the fact that people, as you said, evaluating through their own prism and particularly through own prism of how they feel.
You'll probably notice that the people who.
Are most encouraging our people themselves are pretty confident and happy where they are, and they're like, great job, Greg, that's really cool. And people who are a little more insecure tend to feel like, oh, this is a real indictment of me and what I haven't done, so that's not cool and shut up about it. So I think to some extent, you let that process go and know that everyone has their own things that are working through.
But yet it is unfortunate if you feel like you can do something and be not want to be excited about it because you feel that everyone's going to be really negatively, negatively react to that.
Yeah. Well, having said that, I have a lot of support now and I'm very grateful. But I think what is funny what you're talking about people basically beating their chest on social media is the irony is that trying to impress people is wildly unimpressive. It's like, I know what you think, you think you're doing, but you're not the opposite.
So people are out there just doing their thing and not beating their chest as much.
Right. I always say to people, don't tell me, show me if you're awesome, we'll figure it out.
We'll figure it out, we'll see it do awesome things.
I know there's people in my school and friends that I am wildly impressed with and are very little chest beating.
Yeah.
So also, I see you're the editor in chief of the British Journal of Clinical Psychology. Is that still you? You still doing that?
Nope?
I finished that up last year and now another Australian, Bethany Wooton, is the editor and cheap so that was a fantastic opportunity.
I did that for six years and now it's kind of it's kind of cool.
I'm trying to see, like what's filling the gap, What new things am I getting involved with which has been fun?
How good are you relaxing?
I'm pretty good.
I feel like I'm not I'm not the worst at it relative to some of my peers. Yeah, I really like just like lying on the floor and reading my books, So I'm not too bad at it.
I want to finish with just a chat around anxiety. I don't want to ask you a specific question. I just want you to riff on anxiety for me, because I feel like it's it's it's a thing, but it's kind of a lot of things, and I think we all experience it to some level, you know, from you know, minor discomfort or distraction to complete overwhelming dysfunction. Could you just, I don't know, talk to us about it for a minute or two.
Yeah, that was a very very general opener.
I guess I'm thinking of I don't know if you came across this in your studies, but the York's Dodson curve and not being afraid of anxiety, knowing that a little bit of anxiety can motivate you and kind of allowing yourself to feel a little bit anxious and know that that's also excitement and novelty and interest. And also then when it gets too overwhelming, that you know you don't have to manage everything on your own. That we
have community and connection. That's how humans have always operated. It's not a failing to talk to your friends, to seek out social connection, to seek out therapy if it's really bad.
So yeah, I would I would say that that's for me.
The main things is and knowing that there's a normal level that it's an evolutionarily evolved emotion that keeps us protected and allows us to register novelty and try new things.
And learn things and notice big threats in our environment.
And so that's the balance, is noticing when it's just the anxiety is tough living as a human in the world today and adulting and all those things.
So it's okay to feel some levels of that and just.
Accepting that, and it's just are you feeling that anxiety and still doing what you want to do?
Are you paralyzed by it?
So that's the question I'll be asking, is like, it's okay to feel anxious.
You're about to give a big.
Speech, you're doing a podcast or whatever, you feel anxious.
I'm learning piggleball.
I don't know what I'm doing, but as soon as it prevents me from doing things that I want to do, and I'm not going for a run and I'm not doing a podcast and I'm not doing things, and it's a problem, and it's like really getting some support around that.
One of the things I do a bit is over the last twenty years, because I do a lot of corporate speaking, is help speakers, I guess, coach speakers. But what's the biggest tip for me as as a Yeah, it's really sure. Yeah, Like I think one of the I'm not putting you in this pigeon hole because you've proven to be otherwise. But academics can struggle because they feel like everything that's coming out of their mouth has
got to be research based, They've got to reference. It's and it's very very they speak a language that most audiences don't speak. So I say, before we even think about your data, your slides, your content, your messaging, think about how do I build rapport, connection, understanding and respect with this group of humans who aren't me, who don't think like me, who don't have my background.
That's great advice.
Yeah, Like if your content is awesome, but you, as a human on the stage are unrelatable and you can't tell a story and you can't be a bit a little bit. You don't need to be a stand up comic. But you know, like I'll walk up to a room and I've literally just been introduced, and the first thing I might say is put up your hand if you're an overthinker, and everyone goes, oh god, they put up their hand, and I go, how's that going for you?
Shit house? Right? And they laugh. Now I've got everyone putting up their hand, I've got people reflecting on how they are, and I've got them committing and admitting something and then we just go from there. So being able to build rapport and trust quickly really matters. And like it's not like in academia where it's all about the information, the data, the evidence. Of course, how well you present
that is secondary. But in a corporate environment or where you're getting paid, let's be honest, a shitload of money to have an impact and then bug her off, like you need to be able to. I call it edutainment, where you need to be able at the end of the day. If I was coaching you, I would hope that you would walk off stage and they would say, she's amazing. Can we get her back? Like it doesn't need to be too complicated? Yeah, you know so, And
I mean I started. I did my first paid I wrote about this recently, my first paid speaking gig at twenty six, which was thirty six years ago. I'm sixty two and I got paid fifty bucks. I talked to twenty blokes in the timbiard in their lunch room. I spoke for thirty minutes. I prepared for three weeks. I was fucking horrible. They hated me, and I.
Loved it, And I'm.
Like, I know I can do this right, But whatever it is, whether it's research.
Very resilient response, I love that.
I loved it and I went because I knew that I could do it. I knew I couldn't do it tomorrow or next month.
But you had a vision where you would get there.
Yeah yeah, and to be able to you know, go all right, well, I'm crap at this. But whenever we start something new, where crap. Where the white belt? Where the metaphoric white belt in the room, you know, in a martial arts kind of metaphor, and so how do I It's like when I started my research, I hadn't studied for twenty five years or no, about twenty years, and I was terrified. I was inept. I was terrified. I couldn't understand what I was reading. I didn't understand
the language. I was sitting in a room at Monash. I was sitting in my cubicle with about fifteen bloody, uh genius twenty three year olds. It was like bring your fucking granddad to work day. I couldn't have been less suited, right, But you go, well, this is the worst I'll be. Yeah, that's the worst I'll be. You know.
That's how it's so nice to be able to start something new.
There's something so good about something brand new, and if you cannot let your fear or negativity stop you, and you can just see it like as you said, this is the worst I'm ever going to be, And good on me for trying something new. I don't care if I'm good at it yet, I just amn't getting out there.
And I think for people from say TIFF's age forty ish onwards, especially fifty and sixty, I'm not telling any of them what to do, But I think it's highly advantageous to put yourself in situations where you have to learn, you have to evolve, you need to adapt and develop new skills and understanding and insight and self awareness, like because it's so fucking important for your brain. And as
I've watch so many people age unnecessarily. My undergrad is in exercise physiology, right, so as I watch so many people age biologically, cognitively and behaviorally and at a rate that.
They don't need to, yeah, exactly, I mean I also feel like just that feeling of being incompetence and getting comfortable with it. The other thing I do is I do surf life saving and I'm not a particularly good life saver, but I did the course and now I go out on the beaches and I patrol. And I've only done a few patrols, and I feel like I never know what the hell I'm doing, And how do we watch these radios?
I don't know how to make the radio calls. I'm trying to learn.
But I've met really lovely people, and I feel like each time I go a couple new things and I'm still those shittiest life saver probably there, and luckily there's a team of amazing people, so if something happens, I don't feel nervous.
But it's been good. I just kind of sitting with.
That feeling of oh, I feel it pretty competent most of the time at work, or at least respect it or whatever, and then to go in this other context where just lowman on the totem pole.
So I think you're right.
It's good for you in terms of you know, aging and your brain, but also socially. I think I would never talk to this random bloke who's doing on my shift on the patrol, but it's great to talk to him, and he's really interesting. So I'm meeting people all the time, which I wouldn't do otherwise.
And how many people do you meet that you're like, Oh, you are so interesting, you are so smart, you know so many things I don't know. Yeah, let's chat, I Jess. Is there anything you want to publish or publish anything you want to promote or share with our audience? Website, books, anything like that, social media?
Yeah, not particularly.
You can google me and OC and I do have a website with some resources.
If there's something concerning you, it.
Will have links to other places with vetted information for OCD and and things that are going on.
If you're a therapist to treat so OCD and you.
Want to get in touch, we do have a website that helps connect people who are looking for treatment with therapists. So feel free to google my name, Jessica Grisham and OCD and you and s W and you'll and you'll pull up my page and you can email me.
You're the best. I absolutely love that.
That was so fun and I appreciate your advice.
Thank you, Thank you.
I'm going to take on toward all your public speaking advice too for my next my next talk.
Yeah, you'll kill it. We'll saygodbarfair. But did you enjoy that tip?
Loved it? Loved it?
Smarty pants, smarty pants with charisma. That's a unicorn right there. Hi, folks, I hope you enjoyed that. Appreciate you. Don't forget. Go to the project Facebook page if you want feedback, small little community of about four thousand people there who interact and have fun and ask questions. If you want to suggest a guest, do that. See you later,