Good team. It's the bloody project. That's you, Tiffany and Cook over there in the fancy ritchy area of Melbourne that she lives in Glaspow up there in the bloody jungle in Queensland. Will start with the smart one. Good I, tiff.
Good I.
We'll go to the beautiful one next. How are you? How's your day been?
I've been fabulous? Thank you.
Well you should thank me because I just finished twenty minutes ago training you and your gorilla boyfriend. You're the andethal boyfriend who can cook chock brown in like world class apparently. Yeah, oh well, good for you, doctor Gillespie. Welcome to the show. Fourteen days later, here we are, how are you?
Yeah? Good good? Yeah, it's been a yeah follo out. Fourteen days for me actually feels like several months.
Actually, I thought you tried to avoid work as much as possible. How dare you? Yeah?
Well, the new book's coming out twenty eighth of April, and so there's a bit of stuff that has to happen ahead of that, including producing the actual book.
So yeah, Well, because you're you're the world's worst at fucking self promotion. If I managed you were, if I was your agent or any I'd be like, dude, do better, so give us, give us without doing anything sales. You just tell us about what you can about the book.
Uh yeah, I'd rather than at the moment.
That's a terrible start my case.
It's called the Attention Recovery Plan, right, and it is. There's a lot of stuff written about, including by me, about the damage that devices and addictions are doing to us. So you know, the social media gaming, all that kind of thing, and I've written a lot about that and made it really really clear that the biochemistry tells us that this is no different to substance abuse, and it's having the same consequences, which is severe addiction, anxiety, depression, psychosis, schizophrenia.
And you know, we're going to hell in a handbasket as a society because the rates of those things are increasing incredibly quickly because we're addicting everybody. And so I've written about that before. We've spoken about it before, I've written books about it. The most recent time was a book I wrote called Brain Reset a few years ago. This is about Okay, that's brilliant, thanks for scaring me
to death. What do you do about it? And the answer can't be well, chuck your phone in the bin, because if it were that easy, it wouldn't be an addiction. So that's not what this book's about. This book's about how do you intentionally recover your attention? How do you intentionally recover your focus? How do you, I guess, for want of a better term, go through a focused workout to make sure you can still do it and you
can still apply your mind. And how do you combat the inevitable disease wave that comes with addiction, the anxiety, the oppression, the ADHD, all of those things. So this is an intensely practical book about what do you do? So there's a little bit of science in there, some of it you're recognize from things that we've discussed over the years, but it's mostly about what do you do
about it? And there's a lot of step by step guide's a lot of planning exactly what to do, how to organize your workspace, how to organize your personal life, all of those sorts of things to ensure that you maintain focus, fitness.
Wow, that's good. And the fact that it it's outlining the problem but really talking about and presenting a solution. I love and it is. It is interesting when you think that, like whether it's booze or whether it's gambling, or whether it's drugs, or whether it's pawn or whether it's foo, it's I mean, it's the addiction is kind of the same in a way. It's just a different pathway to a similar addiction, right.
It's exactly the same. From a biochemical perspective. Your brain can't tell the difference between a gambling addiction, a gaming addiction, a social media addiction, or an addiction to heroin. It can't tell the difference from a biochemical perspective, They're all exactly the same.
And without giving away anything, you can't, so feel free to not answer it. Did you where did you? Did you talk to people who had overcome this addiction? Did you talk to addiction specialists? Did you read a million papers as you do? From where? Did you kind of create or formulate your suggestions or your kind of recovery models.
It's a combination of a few of those things. The book has a lot of stories from you know, anonymised obviously, but a lot of real world stories from people who've struggled with these things. You know, things like dating app addictions, gaming addictions, gambling addictions, and so on, and real life
stories of that. And the reason for putting those in is, rather than me just banging on about all this is bad, I want people to be able to read the story of a person and identify them, see themselves in the story, see something that they're doing, because one of the difficulties with addiction is it usually comes with an enormous moral judgment.
As this there's this general sense that if you're an addict, it's because you're weak or you're in some other way faulty, and you just need to get your act together and we can't help it. It's just it's ingrained in the way we operate as humans. You know, if you see someone addicted to pornography, it's because they've got something wrong with them, or you see someone addicted to gambling, they're weak in some way. But that's not what's going on.
What's going on is a very intentional perversion of some biochemistry in the human brain by people who are doing it to make money. And we need to not lose sight of that that this is a business model we're talking about here, and this book is about fighting that business model and keeping your own brain to get us.
And I guess the reality is, as much as we don't want to hear this, if we put aside morality in all of that, just for this hypothetical, it's in the interest of a lot of these companies and apps and all of that to get people addicted because it's financially rewarding.
Well, we've said this before. You know, when the product is free, you are the product. And that's what's going on in when people are selling addiction. It's the point here, say, for whether it's a playing games or gambling or on social media, it costs billions of dollars to develop, maintain, and run something like Facebook or Instagram, and what does it cost you to do it? Nothing? Not a sense. That just doesn't make sense as a business model. That's
totally insane. And that's because that's not the business model. The business model is capturing seconds of attention, yes, or engagement as it's often called, and then reselling that to the highest bidder, and the best way to do that is to addict people.
We talk about it a fair bit, but it feels to me like everyone kind of like what we've well, some of what you've said so far will be revelatory to some of it will bit like, oh wow, I didn't really think about it. But I think most of us kind of know that there's a problem around social
media and the like. But I also feel like while we we kind of get intellectually that it's a potential threat for some people in some ways, if not all of us, we don't hold it in the same regard as booze or heroine or gambling or some of the I guess the addictions that we would call life destroying or destructive, but it seems like which it isn't, but it can almost seem like, oh yeah, it's kind of an addiction, but it's not one of them, the danger ones.
There's two aspects to addiction, which people often mix up because when you talk about let's say a substance addiction or you know, things like her and cocaine, etc. People talk about the symptoms of that and the badness associated with that, and what they're actually talking about is the
side effects. So in order to produce the dopamine spike and create the addiction, those things come with side effects because they're drugs, and a lot of those side effects are what people associate with addiction, but that isn't addiction. Addiction is the dopamine spike that's produced in the first place, and the damage done by that is not from the side effects, or it's not the primary damage from the
side effects. If you didn't think about something like gambling, there's no real side effect from gambling in the same sense of substance abuse, but no one would fight with you over the notion that it's very definitely an addiction.
What's going on there is that dover meanspike is being produced by behavior, which is gambling, and that dover meanspike is having the consequence that you become anxious and depressed, that you create chaos in your life by running out of money, and that in turn makes it even worse. So that's a pure form of what happens in addiction. And when people wave away things like Instagram or dating apps or gaming and say, well, that's not the same thing,
they're mixing the two up. Yes, there are no instant downside side effects from substance consumption, but the effect on the brain is identical, which is why we're seeing anxiety rates in teenagers go through the roof. It's why We're seeing depression go through the roof. It's why schizophrenia is that epidemic proportions, It's why suicide is going crazy. It's
because these are the flow on effects of addiction. So people waving away something because it doesn't have a substance abuse side effect doesn't make it any less addiction.
It's so funny. I've even with adults, and maybe for me, it's almost like this is like the impact of if we had an impact scale of these things that went from zero to ten, and we go, well, ten is complete. It's hijacked your life in your brain and you really need you really need help, and then write down to almost like disordered eating through to an eating disorder. So I think, you know, the level of impact kind of
grows without us even realizing. But it still comes down to like our awareness around it now, willingness to acknowledge it. But I was having a chat yesterday with a made of mine who's fifty five. Was something he's got grandkids and his kid, his son took his iPhone off his well I don't know, nine year old or ten year old for a week, and the kid lost his shit. I mean he and he was there when that, like he happened to be there and I don't know what the kid did, but the consequence of what he did
was no phone for a week. Well you think you would think, he said to me, it's like they fucking chopped his leg off.
Or it's like any other addict when you take away the thing that they're addicted to. M that's what's going on here. And people will often say to me when I talk like this, they'll say, yeah, but I'm not, as you know, I don't really have addiction. Sure, I don't mind a bit of gaming or a bit of gambling or you know, get on the social media or someone, but I'm not. I'm not addicted. You know, there's no
problems there. And often I'll say to them, well, sure, well, there's an easy way to put through that, you know, just to lete the apps, and they go, sure, easy, do it tomorrow, and they will, knowing in the back of their mind that they can reinstall them anytime they want. But if I say to them, well, just delete the accounts too, then they're then they're not so easy to convince.
No one wants to delete the accounts because that really is stopping and they in their own minds are behaving the way that kid is behaving, which is, you know, they're rebelling against the notion of stopping this, and that's a sure sign of addiction. But even if you're not prepared to acknowledge that, there are other signs. The early metabolic signs of addiction are insomnia and focus difficulties, or
what people are now currently describing as ADHD. The massive title wave of adult diagnosis of ADHD is in fact diagnosis of the functional effects of addiction, which is should focus that comes from being an addict. It's been measured. It's forty seven seconds I think is our average ability to stay on task at the moment, and that has been a massive decline. And what's happening on a society wide basis is we're fracturing everybody's focus. That's the first
thing to go. Focus is the first thing to go. It's the first sign that there's a problem. Then you start noticing things like insomnia, you start noticing stress growing to anxiety, growing to depression and so on. But ask yourself, am as I am I as focused as I remember being ten years ago?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's yeah. Well, I mean everyone who is addicted thinks they're not addicted, or most people, if they do.
Or if they do, think they're addicted, or no, they're addicted, or at least suspec most of them don't like the fact that they are and will deny it.
Yeah, exactly, exactly. But I had to, like, in all of my meetings and stuff, even if I just had my phone near me and it would chime or it would like there would be something I would I would get. I would in the middle of the thing. I wouldn't pick up my phone, but I would. I would. My attention would shift a minute to the fucking phone. And it's not like I went, oh, that dinged I think I should. I just looked before I'd thought, like, it's Pavlov's dog.
You know, it's exactly like Pavlov's dog.
It's a trained response.
Yeah, And just you know, if anyone's not across those experiments, what Pavlov did was get some dogs to cellivate when they heard a bell ring, and the reason was he ring the bell and then give them something to eat. And then he got them to ring. Then the experiment progressed on and it'd ring the bell and not give them something. To eat and they'd celebrate because their brains have been trained. When that bell rings, I'm going to
be rewarded. And that's what's going on with notifications. That's why there are notifications. By the way, it's not by accident that every app is sending you a million notifications a minute. It's that they know that this is part of the addictive mechanism and it's a very important part of it. In fact, so important that there's a whole book, in a whole chapter in the book dedicated to notifications and why theyre an important part of addiction and why they have to be turned off.
Bro, you should be doing workshops on this in every fucking school in Australia. No, you don't have the time or the energy, but I mean, it is so important, and it's like I think everybody, like even I'm thinking about now and what do I and I know we're going to have another conversation probably we'll see how we go. We didn't intend to have one, But this is how
we work, isn't it. But the door's open down we've kind of but I just think, like, and I know this is often discussed, but talking about real practical like what's really happening physiologically, psychologically, and strategically from the companies, and then what's happening in your body and your nervous system and your brain chemistry when just to like, you know that seek first to understand, like try to understand what this is actually doing to you, not via some
meme on social media, but actually to try to understand a little bit about your own body and your own brain and the way that things work. And being able to recognize that. And the other thing too is because like there's a diminishing return on the same dose. So what used to fucking light you up doesn't light you up five years to light you up, now you need ten. Three months later, you need two hundred to get the same response that you used to get from five. So
you're training your self up. Oh god, you know.
And even that's pure biochemistry. We've got to switch in our brain that every time we give it a dose, it moves up a notch. It's a rat. So so every time we rapchet it up one, it means we need a bigger dose next time. And that's by design. So that's the way our brain works, it's the way our physiology works, and the companies know that and exploit that. Now that has really really bad effects on the way our brain works, but they don't care about that as
long as we remain addicted to their product. Mmmm. It's interesting. One of one of the things I suggest people do is is introduce the idea of friction. Intensionally, introduce friction. One of the things that an addictive anything tries to do is remove friction, so it tries to make it easier. So and I give the example of you know, if you're a gambler and you had in order to gamble, you had to you know, get dressed, walk five miles to the casino and then gamble, You'd be much less
likely to do it. Then if you could just pull your phone out of bocktt and have a bet right there and then so that you get dressed, leave the home, walk to the casino is friction. And everywhere you can introduce friction between you and the addictive behavior is.
A good thing. And you may or may not have any insight into this specifically, but I'm sure you'll have an opinion. The how is the under sixteen band working in Australia? Is that making? Is that doing anything? Or is that a is that window dressing.
I think it's important, but not for the reasons that it's often promoted as being important. People get lost in the weeds about this and say it won't work. You know, kids will get around this this marter than we are. They'll figure it out and they will just the same as they have around alcohol. Band. Did you know that you're not supposed to drink if you're under eighteen in Australia.
I've heard of that.
You wouldn't know it from observing the average under eighteen, but it is the law. And you're not supposed to smoke if you're under eighteen either, But it is because it is the law. The fact that it is the law does, however, introduce friction. It does, however, mean that a parent can say to a kid, no, you are not having a beer because you are seventeen. It gives you. It gives a parent the ability to fall back and say, I have the support of my society. The law is
that this is not possible. Sorry, I don't know. If you can hear the dog barking in the background, Well.
That's great.
Saying I have the backing of society when I tell you you're not doing this. So in that way it's a good idea. In that way is it allows parents and others to say, no, you are not having access to this thing because it is against the law. Will may still break the law, Yes they will. Does it make it harder, Yes it does.
There's a guy who comes in to the cafe I have a coffee out every morning. I'm going to give me a shout out. He used to play footy in the AFL Force and killed her. James Gwilt James. And he's got the gorgeousest little girl in the world, cool rosie, and she two and a half and she's got blonde, curly hair, and she looks like something out of a fucking nursery rhyme. And every time she comes in she comes straight to me because she sits on my lap
and watches pepper Pig. That sounds creepy. I don't mean it too. Her dad's there. It's all good, right, but it's and she goes from mayhem to complete focus. By the way, we only watched two or three minutes of pepper Pig, but talk about like this tiny little bundle of energy goes to this fully focused cyborg. In a matter of seconds, just watching Pepper Pig and she only comes to me. She don't wonder, she's not interested in me. She's like, I'm the pathway to Pepper Pig. I'm the
conduit to the thing that she wants. Dealer, Yeah, that's it. I'm just handing out a little bit of cartoon over here in the corner. And I said to her dad, how much of this does she Yeah? No, we don't let her at home. So that's why she fucking loves you, because she gets whatever her three minute hit every second day or whatever it is. But now I'm feeling like I'm a dealer. Now I'm feeling like I'm enabling some two and a half year old into a lifetime of
bloody potential addiction. But it is even at that age can have a massive It's not just fourteen, fifteen, sixteen year olds, you know, it's toddlers.
Oh absolutely. I mean you don't have to walk into a supermarket to see that. I mean, you know, all the kids in the in the prams are sitting there set to stunt with an iPad in front of their faces. And I'm that sounds like I'm having a go and I'm not that is a direct consequence of the business model that is being used. The younger you can get people on these things, the better as far as that business model is concerned. And it's not a judgment about
what's going on. It's just an observation, and I want people to stand back from it and say, wow, I'm not sure I want that to happen. I will happily, you know, give these kids a shot of vodka to calm them down. Am I happy to do it with digital vodka? Hmm? I saw you laughing there. She's thinking, yeah, I would actually, yeah.
Like the term digital voca.
No, that's good. That's I'm going to write that down. That could be today's podcast titled digital vodka. So, I mean, I know you're not nostradamis, but you're pretty nostrodharmasy. So obviously you're trying to make a dent, which is great. And we've got more awareness, which is great. I think we've got a few more rules and REGs or laws
in place, which is good. But like just humor me go like left unchecked, like we just let this be a fucking free for all with no awareness or no kind of speed bumps put in place for these people who are addicted or if not addicted, like significantly influenced in their behavior. Like, what's the end of the line, just a total.
Blind is you just have to look at a graph of the rates of anxiety depression ADHD diagnosis in Australia and these things are off the charts, right. These are growing by multiples of four or five times in just the last five years. So these things are in steep upward climbs, and you know, we see it occasionally surface in crime statistics, you know, and people sort of vaguely say, oh, you know, us holds are up because of mental health or what they mean there is that there's lots of
there's an epidemic of schizophrenia in the community. Now schizophrenia, for those of your listeners who aren't quite sure what that is. That's people having hallucinations, being believing that people are out to get them and acting on those beliefs. So it's an extreme form of anxiety about the intentions of others, or an extreme form of paranoia about the intentions of others. And once again there's a tendency to be judging about that and think that all these are
poor weak people. But it's not the case. This is an inevitable consequence of doing this to the human brain. You keep pushing that dopamine requirement higher and higher and higher, and you eventually get into the territory of schizophrenia. You don't want to live in a society where there are a lot of people who are suffering hallucinations and suffering extreme paranoia and are prepared to act on the belief
that you are there to harm them. And you know, a more obvious and earlier sign of this is the massive increase in ADHD diagnosis. It's what I'd call functional ADHD, which is the symptoms look the same as the traditional ADHD. The inability to focus at all on anything at any time without medication, and that is on an absolute tear.
You know, we already have teachers saying they have classrooms that you know, you know, twenty years ago they might have had one kid if that, suffering from something like that. But now you know, five, six, seven, eight of the kids in your average twenty twenty two kid class I have those problems and or need to be medicated to control them.
Teaching has got to be the hardest job. Like at the moment, I thumb and there's a lot of hard jobs, but it's got to be in the top for nursings up there and a lot of you know people who work in that space.
But down the front they're the front line. Both of those professions are the front line. They're seeing this day by day. They're seeing the increase in mental illness, they're seeing the increase in ADHD and kids.
Yeah, yeah, that's going to sound like a weird question, not a normal question. I would ask you it's more philosophical. But what what drives you to write a book like this? I know it's not for money because you make about the thirteen cents every time you write a book. We know how profitable books are in Australia. I also know what is it because you just see that there's a need and you want to highlight that and potentially talk
about some you know, strategies or solutions. Or is it because you have a personal interest or you've this has been something's happened to you or around you that's triggered this, Like where does that come from?
You're all all of the above, So it is it is a combination of I'm just naturally a person who needs to understand how things work, and I rarely buy this is a complex problem that we don't know how it works. I think the science is good enough now that we know how most things work, if we're prepared to have an open mind in looking at what the
science is actually telling us. There's a lot of people out there in your future profession who still favor the psychobabble and one narrative explanations for all of this, but it isn't. The narrative explanations are useless. This is neurochemistry we're talking about, and you push the right buttons, the same things will happen every single time in every single human. And we know enough now The science is good enough for us to be able to put those blocks together
and say this is what is going on. I want it to stop. I want the society that we're living in to return to a state where not every second person is potentially suffering from mental illness. I want that to stop, and I want it to go on to reverse because I think we're a better society if we're not all sick. And I at a personal level, yes, I have seen things like this, both in myself and in others that I think this, if you apply the
things that I set out, can be corrected. And I'm not suggesting it's easy, but I think it's a lot easier if you've got a plan.
If to you on the one to ten ten being it's hijacked your life and brain. Do you think you have an issue? Not an addiction necessarily, but are you challenged in this space? Do you feel like you need to be on less or use it less? Or that's not a loaded question, that's curiosity.
Yeah, yeah, definitely, like what what.
Would be the thing that you would want to reduce.
Or if you're definitely that's.
What did he say?
Less porn?
Yeah, David Gillespie like comment.
That that is that's him getting edge, that's him just like letting his hand opportunity for a joke about time. Fucking welcome to the club. Do it, will you?
And sorry for interrupt let us please tell us.
I am aware of loo.
I noticed myself pick up and open apps and open apps mindlessly without it happening like I do that. I do that a lot. And yeah, so I think I use social media and things way too much.
Mmm, I'm a little bit the same. I'm not as bad as I was, but I'm still not there, so that one of them.
Yeah, the app, and when I'm when I'm going to do something and forget and then open three social media apps and then go, oh, I want to pick up my phone.
For why have I opened that app?
Because the finger just going straight to that app? You know, it's silly.
Yeah, I have this default where if I I'm just doing nothing, I'll go, I wonder else, see who liked that post I put up like that? Will I'm not thinking, oh geez, I'll ring mum, I'll go, I wonder how that post is traveling? Oh really, do you know what I mean?
But what your brain is saying is just give me another dopamine hit. Because what your brain wants when you do that and check how the post is going is they want to see the number of likes gone up. And because every every single like is an oxytocin hit, which produces a dopamine hit. And that's what's going on in your brain. And you might say, oh, it's harmless, I'm just looking at stuff. Well, sure, but it's rewiring your brain just as effectively as anything else that produces
a dope. Meine it's and then there's also the time cost. I don't know if you've noticed, but you only get one life, and the minute that you spent doing that is a minute you never get back.
M M yeah it is. It's like cost benefit analysis. What is this? What am I investing? Time? Energy, money, maybe focus, attention? What am I getting back? Fucking an addiction?
Like you're also getting some ads?
Yeah, well, there's not a great ROI if we're talking about digital investment in terms of our attention and and I know there's no three step plan, but surely, like as you're talking, I'm like, yeah, that's that's not me, that is me. That's a bit me. Tiff is probably the same. I know there's no single entry point or stepping off point, but if it.
Is, this is not meant to be like alcoholics anonymous or something. This is meant to be for everyone who has who sees a little bit of themselves in all of the stories that I put in this book, who sees some of the things there that they are doing too. And the plans I put forward for what to do about it are relatively easy to implement, and they're not
things like throw your phone in the bin. They are things like introduce friction by doing this instead of this, you know, introduce delay by doing it this way rather than that way. And I walk people through that in this book and then describe why it matters and what effects doing that will have on your brain biochemistry.
Do you touch on? And we'll wind up now because I know you've got to get back to your computer game. Do you touch on? Do you touch on? AI? I feel like, you know, so many of my friends don't actually write whatever it is they're writing. They don't actually write it anymore. They just put in a prompt and AI writes it for them and that becomes the letter.
It's a slightly different thing in that AI is not addictive, but it is something else and it's related. And I was actually having this thought today and I thought we might talk about this today, but we've got a little bit sidetracked. I was thinking, if a guy is doing our thinking for us, and increasingly it is, isn't this just like the Industrial Revolution when machines started doing our
lifting for us. So the idea of there being a gym or you're doing a workout in the early eighteen hundreds would have been frankly laughable because people were just doing that every day anyway, it was the job. And for that to have become something that has been created is really really interesting, which is you know, you probably know about Eugene Sandow, sort of the father of bodybuilding modern bodybuilding.
Yeah, and the actual mister Olympia, which is the biggest comp in the world. The trophy is called the Sandow Yeah.
And I mean he was the I guess, the original fitness influencer. If it had an Instagram account, it would
have been mad. But he was a product of something called the physical culture movement, which really spread throughout Europe the United States as a result of the Industrial Revolution, and it was based in this notion of you are no longer using your body for what it was designed to do, what it has been doing for the rest of time up until now when we had all these Now I got all these machines that do it for us. So you need to keep training it, you need to
keep using it, or it will disappear. And I wonder is there something like that necessary with AI, because what a lot of people are doing now with AI is using it to do their thinking. And if we use a machine to do our thinking, do we need something like the physical culture movement, where we actually design programs that where people can do a mental workout every day. And I'm not touring a sudoku or something like that. That's the equivalent of lifting a tin of beans and
calling it a workout. I am saying programs that are actually designed to make sure your brain still functions. Yeah.
Yeah, it's funny when you think about eugen stand out onwards, right. Imagine you know, for however long depends, they keep changing
the timeline. But three hundred thousand years where men and women were active, most men and women active all the time, lifting shit, like fixing shit or whatever, just moving their body a lot, expending physical energy a lot, naturally functional and strong, and them projecting forward going, oh, in two hundred years, nobody will do any of this, but they'll go to this room and then they'll pretend to Yeah, they'll pick something up and put it down for an hour,
and then they'll go back and sit in their lounge chair. It's yeah, it's well, there was no need really, no, there was no.
Need recently, and and to me, I'm wondering there was no need for the similar things for brains. And I think we're going to need it, and I think there's a new Eugene Sander. Maybe it's you and new Eugene Sander waiting in the wings to do the same thing for brains because of what AI is going to do to or is doing to us.
Yeah, I do actually talk about the importance of training our brain, like the importance of maintaining, if not optimizing cognitive function and solving problems and being creative and doing all.
It's not just that it's the physical brain interaction. It's high kinetic sports and so on that have high rates of thinking and action associated. So you know, not surprisingly, I would use handball given my association with handball, with that where that's an extremely high speed, high cardio sport where things are changing second by second. It's the interaction of the brain and the body in that motion that I think will become more and more important.
Yeah, there's another one which I would just because I have been a tiny bit involved in, but I've trained quite a lot of athletes who do Brazilian jiu jitsu Tiff knows one of them, and like it's such a cerebral sport where they're on the map, which if you haven't seen it, you wouldn't think that. You think it's just two bullf ed's just squeezing each other and strangling each other.
All highly kinetic sports, fencing, jiu jitsu, all of the martial arts where your brain has to be functioning at light speed and incredibly focused or you are going to get messed up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Oh I'm excited. What's the ETA on the book again?
Did you say twenty eighth of April, just after transit?
All right, well, we'll do a promo when it comes out. It's yeah, that was good, mate, that was so interesting. But just also shout out everyone on David's substack page. You wrote an article today which I actually read in preparation for this, which god, I know, so I've actually got it under the under your faces, well can't see your face. You're always just a black box, like a fucking mystery thing on a plane. But anyway, may I yeah, yeah,
that's right. But the article is called the Purchased Health Halo. We might talk about it next time, but it's on substack. Just go David Gillespie substack. It will come up on Google or whatever. It's fucking great. So have a read of that and maybe we'll explore that next time, but Mate, appreciate you as always and thanks for the chat and Tiff, thanks for hanging out, Thanks lads, Thanks Jo