#2091 Borderline Personality Disorder - Kelsey Packwood

send them a photo of her. It's going to be a whole thing. It's going to be messy anyway. But uh yeah, yeah, fuck my is, let's get Let's get a puppy. That's a much better idea. How long go did you have a Golden Er Treva Kelsey?

she her name was Angie. She was blind. So this was back in the mid twenty tens and we had it for like four years, and we didn't know she was blind when we got her, but shortly after we realized she couldn't see because she was bumping into the walls.

but it's been it's been a comfortable hat. It felt like I I definitely fell into that pretty easily.

you know, social media strategy. I feel like I'm learning a lot, but it's it's so cool to take something that you created out of nothing and then like share it with the world, but it's it's hard to get things out there sometimes undersent.

and nobody's bored a painting. But I'm super gifted, which is nice. But yes, so I feel like all of that stuff is constance problem solving. Like I did three podcasts before this that didn't work, Like that didn't work commercially, right, they were okay, but you're like, okay, first one, what do we learn? What went okay? What went shit? What do I need to do more of less of? What didn't I understand? What do I understand now? How do I need to be different? What did the audience want?

What's going to resonate? How do I share this idea in a way that's not complicated but still explaining the guts of the idea while being relevant for the average person. And then version two, and then version three, and then finally, you know, the fourth installment or the fourth Incarnation, which you're currently sitting on the new project. Even that took about six hundred episodes before it was like for me

worth doing financially. You know, we're over two thousand now, But I literally spent three or four years just trying to figure out this this podcast algorithm, Like how do I Because I know the shit that I know is relevant to people, and I know I'm a little bit amusing and a little bit interesting at times sometimes a fucking idiot also, but how do I how do I operationalize what I have in a way that people are going to want to come back and want to you know,

So for you, how are people going to Are people going to want to come to your next show or your next doco or your next whatever it is. So I feel like it's high level problem solving on an ongoing basis.

people to talk about. So it's just like, how can I then translate that into a twenty eight minute episode of television that engages my audience, has them relate to me, and then makes a difference, makes an impact, and then has that person spread the word and say, hey, I saw this really amazing thing. And what I've noticed is I've had a lot of support in the BPD community specifically, because if you know BBD, if you know somebody who's BBD,

you know how challenging it is. You know how painful it can be, not just for the person who's suffering with BBD, but the people around them. And so I've noticed that you can have like such a powerful, amazing project and like, unless people really start spreading the word for you, it's very difficult to get anywhere. But then at the same time, it's like it doesn't happen overnight. So four years sounds great. I came up with my

idea four years ago. It took me three out of those four years to then film it, and then a year of getting it into the right hands to be seen. So it's anything worthwhile. It takes a lot of time and care, tender look.

I mean, if all you want to do is have a podcast and talk to cool people and hang out, then you're succeeding if that's your goal. But yeah, to actually take your idea and then turn that into a creative success, a financial success, a personal success, and something that's potentially doing some good in the world where this information and inspiration and education is needed. That's that's not a quick or easy process, right.

They came out of them. And that's what I think also happened with me, Like these words that I wrote, they came out of me, almost without me even thinking. It just was in me and it just happened. So there is some spiritual element to it too. I think when you're passing on knowledge or showkissing art at a high.

few thousand copies, but it didn't catch fire. And then about a year ago, a major league baseball player was sitting, you know, like he was in the game, as in he was playing, but he was sitting in the dugout waiting for his turn to bat or whatever, and he was reading this guy's book, right, And so the TV camera zoomed in on this book and they're like, what

is he reading? And then the name of the book came up, and then the producers research it in real time and they're like, oh, this guy wrote this book, it's about that, And then they kept cutting back to this guy who's literally in the middle of a game obviously not his turn at bat or whatever, but and he was yes, And so that dude Kelsey went from oblivion to doing all the national talk shows in a week. He got booked out for speaking, like his book became famous,

and he became famous. I should remember anyway, I interviewed him really good, dude. I feel bad, but I've interviewed two thousand people, so I don't feel that bad.

twenty five. So pretty much this time last year. Well done you. I mean, I don't know, I'm not going to ask you how old you are, but you look fucking twelve. So well done. I mean it's like, you know, I look like I could be a great great granddad. But that's that's amazing. Did you How did your friends and family respond to you know, I'm sure you're very

talented and always have been. But did they go, of course you did that, that's what you do, of course, or did they go, how the fuck did you pull that off?

He had no idea what quality to expect. I mean, first time making my own film didn't mean that I hadn't experienced many film sets. So it all somehow seamlessly came together down to, like the fundraising elements of I had exactly what I needed when I shot the pilot, you know, and I didn't have what I needed for

post production, so I raised that later. But when I did my little call out on my Instagram asking, hey, like, I have these roles, these positions to fill on the crew, and you know, don't have a lot of money to pay, but maybe I will when I raise it. Does anybody want to work on this thing? Two day shoot like in April of this year, And so yeah, it just

kind of just worked. And so I don't think I even realized how quick it all happened and how well it went until I saw it for the first time, Like until I was with my editor Chris Rosenbloom, who he was such a life saver and such a talented guy who gave his whole heart to this project. And by the time that we could watch it for the first time, all the way through that roughish cut that we got together, I was like, oh, wow, like this is this is going to be something, This is going

to be something special. I mean, I thought it would, but I know it now. And then it was another couple of months until my dad got to see it, and I knew that he wouldn't be surprised because I've always been a performer and he hadn't known me as a filmmaker. But in the end, he wasn't surprised, but he definitely he didn't know what to expect. I didn't know what his reaction would be. And what I was surprised about was how well he took the movie, because

it's a lot about the fractured relationship. You know, it's very it's complex, and there were so many call outs in the film that were directly for him, and my mom knew everything along the way, so you know, it

wasn't as much of a reveal. But I think it's been a pleasant surprise, and it's also brought my family closer together, which is, you know, it was the hope when I made it, and so the fact that it ended up happening that way is just kind of like, wow, Okay, you can do something like out of you know, love and pain and grandiosity, you know, like I wanted to change my life, and I wanted to tell a big story and I thought, Okay, let me strip it away

and let me get back to the basics. And what is the most core relationship you have on this planet? And it's with your parents. And when you start having mental health issues and start realizing patterns in your family and behaviors, and then like your lived experience is dependent on like the experience that they had with you. It's it's very it's it's wild when when you just strip it all away and like talk straight to your family,

your your parents. So I don't think there was any surprises on their end, but for me, I was surprised at how well received it was.

So I was like, I don't have many gifts at all, but I was probably of all the things, you know, I was probably a reasonably gifted communicator even as a kid, Like I could bullshit my way in and out of everything, you know, and talk with adults when I was ten

and have adult conversations. And but then, you know, as you move into what I do now, which is corporate speaking and podcasting and the odd bit of university lecturing and talking to teams and athletes and all that stuff, you realize that how good you You know, like, your your talent is finite, but your skill is the one thing that you can develop so that you can become a better producer, better actor, better director, better marketer, all

through work and effort and paying attention to the outcomes, like what are my results telling me what I need to do more or less of? Yeah, And I think there's that when you're born with something, you go especially if that's something that talent is something that you happen to be passionate about. Well, that's a beautiful running start. But then what it matters is what am I going to do with this? Like this thing that I have, like TIFSA an athlete, box are genetically gifted. I'm not

genetically gifted. And then you go, like I've said to many times, well you know, so you've got an athletic body, You've got amazing genetics, and now what matters is what we do with that, you know, skill and training and adaptation and kind of getting uncomfortable. And I feel like that that for many people as a limiting factor where things come really easily when they're young. You know, it might be with sport, might be with academia, it might

be with I don't know, solving problems. But then sometimes they don't keep building on that as they get older.

going to my dad's. I was like, I was more focused on, like where we were going to be, where I was going to be not like what was out in the world. I only knew what I knew, and so it's been wild to to learn more and then learn what is possible and like that you can create things for yourself and also like that, yeah, you can have that gift, but when it comes to being the best version of yourself, you need to set yourself up

for success. You know, you need to position yourself to even have this thing that you're creating, like land correctly. So I totally know what you mean. It's it's you can see it. I think pretty clearly with people like that, just how easy certain things are for certain people, or how how some people like you know, they need to work a little harder and do a little more. Like you know, in school, when you're there's theater school, where there's like a music school, and like somebody's like better

than you. There's always like somebody who's better than you. So like there's a balance between trusting and then also just sharpening and constantly absorbing from the universe to see what you can take from the world and what you can learn so that you can implement those things going forward.

that was good. So Ben Athleck and Matt Damon are talking with him and it's a nearly three hour just rambling conversation about their creative process production, you know, creating a team, creating, you know, working with different people, rewarding the people that they work with, and it's just a very very you know, like they're smoking, they're drinking booze, they're hanging out, and it's just yeah, it's a really good listen and like, I'm never going to make a film.

I'm not a filmmaker. I'm never going to make but just listening to how they solve problems in that space, create, build connection, rapport, trust, respect, do their job. Yeah, I would have a listen to that if I was you. It's probably if you just go into the JR. Jo Rogan experience. I think it's the most recent one or the last one. But yeah, you're.

been working on. I've had so many people reach out to me who have BPD or who are family members of people who have VPD, who've lost people who've died by suicide because of their worderland personality disorder, and it's been that's how I know that this feels greater than me, you know, like it feels. And the reason why I wanted to create a show specifically about it was because, I mean, I know that I started feeling better when

I had more psycho education about BPD. And there's so many people who just don't have the resources or the energy to go out and get the help that they need. There's just so many people who just can't They can't find comfort, they can't find a calmness in the storm. And I know that the people who end up getting hospitalized psychiatric hospitalization, I mean, fifty percent of them exhibit

traits of orderline personality disorder. So if it's such a gigantic number of people who are constantly in the fire in these hospitals, but yet like there's no clear answer except for maybe hospitalize them, maybe put them on some drugs for a couple of weeks, a couple of months,

a couple of years, and see how they do. Versus like, Okay, well, how do we how do we get to the core of the problem, which is the nine symptoms, the chronic feelings of emptiness and loneliness and helplessness, you know, the fear of abandonment to the point of frantic efforts to avoid it, and the suicidality. It's such a major problem

that I think is only getting worse. And this project, I mean, I hoped that when I made this project and it started with a pitch deck, you know, it always starts nice, like little pitch deck to say like, hey, here's the concept. And so I said, if I can just like if I was sending it out to people to read, friends, family, random people, executives like directors, I

was just really open with spreading that word. When I was in Los Angeles and I remember this one girl who's friends with a friend of mine, and I was telling her about it, and then a couple months later, my friends said, oh, yeah, she got diagnosed with BPD after reading your pitch deck. So that was like the first example of wow, Wow, if I could just change someone person's life and give them some sort of education.

What they do is they read what I'm saying about the BBD and now the pilot, and now that it's available, now you can see what I'm saying about BPD, and it can go, hey, maybe that's that's a little bit like me. And instead of holding that fear and shame of oh reading up on BPD on the internet and Google, you can actually just like see a version of it where we humanize it. And and you know, I was I was happy with just one with one person telling me that they got diagnosed or that it helps them.

But what I've noticed is that there's such just a continual support of people who have reached out saying I have this, my sister has this, my mom is undiagnosed, I lost my daughter to this, and that that hasn't stopped. So it's pretty amazing to see how like you can tell when something is supposed to exist, and the goal is to change the way that the world view use mental illness because I don't think we've cracked the personality

disorder world. You know, there's a lot of them. There's cluster A, Cluster B, Cluster C, and out of all of them, bpds, I think I think it's like the only one that like that I know a lot about. So it's like if I if I don't even know about like all of these other ones. I know there's four personality disorders in cluster B, and if I don't even know about the other one, like we haven't even begun to describe the surface. So there's a lot of

work that needs to be done. But there's a lot of people out there on this planet who are trying to do that work. And I actually think there's more people with personality disorders walking around them we think.

some insight into that. It's kind of like a development of theory of mind. But when people go, oh, so you you know, doctor of psychology, and I go, ah, well, like technically yes, but then depending on where I'm at. If I'm at a cafe, I'll pick up the sugar and I'll go look into this jar of sugar. How many grains of sugar do you reckon herre in there? They go, fuck, five, ten thousand, I go, yeah, so one of those grains of sugar is what I've spent

six years studying. Right, It's like to study a component of human behavior, and even within the context of meta perception and meta accuracy, there's so much more. And I just think that you know, like we it's almost a misnomer.

I think sometimes doing like when you come out you graduate and you have you know, you're a doctor in psychology in effect, but you really don't know most of what there is to know at all, Like you might have a bit of an insight, but it's not really like, well, in this very very small sliver of awareness, consciousness, social intelligence, self awareness, in this very small space that is still broadly relevant, but it's still a small area of research

relative to the totality of it. Yeah, I know about that, but all the other stuff, you know, do you ever find that that people assume because you have a pretty good understanding of mental health or human behavior of psychology, that people assume you'll know about that other thing because that also falls onto the umbrella.

it'd be harder for us to even accept it. So it's yeah, the research on things and the knowledge on things, but then also just implementing those practices in your everyday life is it's fascinating. It's so funny how complex we are. And that's a part of the human experience. And I keep saying, you know, I wouldn't want to have been less deep and less intense in my life, like I feel like I've lived my life to the fullest because I feel deeply. So it's a conundrum. But at the

same time, I'm happy for all this knowledge. I know I don't know everything. I know that there's so many different ways that we can perceive all this information, and that we haven't even begun to understand the mind. I mean, the brain is so fascinating, and the fact that we can study it in any capacity is the fact that there's any sort of research down it is a miracle. I always think too that the fact that we can see and hear and taste and everything is such a coincidence.

know less than one. It's like that we don't. Yeah, we know more than we used to. We understand more. We've got better tools, better you know, research capacity. Sure, sure, we've really progressed. But you know, it's just there's a galaxy of knowledge ahead of us to discover, you know.

any of those things. Magic isn't real. And the older I get, the more convinced I am that magic is real, you know, with all the energy that we have on this planet, because there's been too many coincidences. And you can see in the pilot, I did a bit of a version of that in the end because I have this basically this girl. It follows my story of this girl who doesn't want to be alone, and so the whole day she's trying to avoid being alone, and she's

forcing it, she's forcing connection. She's she like, wants to talk to her therapist or therapist. The session is over, she can't afford it anymore. Okay, well, that option is done. She tries to call her dad. He doesn't want to pick up the phone. She goes on a date, but the date can't handle the intensity of the relationship, especially

since it's like a new relationship. And in the end, she feels like she's failed, you know, like she's incapable of human connection, she's incapable of sharing a moment with someone. And yet like there's and I won't give it away for those who haven't watched it, but there's just there's moment directly after a deep moment of suffering that's almost

manifested in the exact way it's needed. And I've found people have asked me if that was a true incident that occurred, and I said no, I had to script it very specifically, just to make sure that the arc of the story landed. But what I did was I took elements of my life that I had experienced in deep moments of suffering where I would pray or I, you know, would talk to a stranger, and it was shocking how talking to a stranger made me feel more hurt and seene than talking to some people that I

on my entire life. And so I have this new view of, like, actually, there is magic if you're willing to listen and open your eyes and look around the corner. And that's another thing that I think about the mind is that it's so such a powerful thing. And if we don't know ninety nine percent of what else is out there, then isn't there more like percentage chance that we can actually like completely create the life that we want and that we can heal ourselves and we can

do the things we say we can't. Because if we're so sure about what we know we can't do, or we're so sure about what we know we can, I mean, I think that there's so much chance that we actually don't know the full story. So I like to add a little element of whimsy and hope to the to the hard stuff, you know, because there's a lot of people who've reached out to me as well, who maybe have been really scared or struggling, and nobody has time for them, you know, nobody has time to talk.

and you're like, I fucking knew it. I knew it. And what I don't know, if that's instinct, didn't tuition, luck or whatever. But I feel like, I don't know, maybe it's a spiritual or a cellular or a physiological or a cognitive carryover from generations past that my great great great grandma knew something and now I know it because somehow I got it. I don't fucking know, but I do know. I like that. And as a scientist, I, you know, I should be skeptical and I should go, no,

that's bullshit. There's no data for that. You don't have data for that. I'm like, fuck the data. Sometimes it's like, yeah, sure, science is great, but also there's this thing, and if we think that science is the totality, the start and finish of what there is to understand and experience in the universe, we're fucking idiots, because science is a man made construct anyway, right, It's just something we created to look through a particular lens to try to understand stuff.

Who makes the science rules? Humans? Who interprets the data, humans? Who tells the stories to the people who aren't the scientists the scientists, do you know?

So I said, like, hey, like, how did you feel when I was gone? Because like a lot of it was him choosing not to answer the phone, like in that beginning portion the first couple of years, And I said, how did you how are you feeling when you didn't know what was going on with me? Or when I was feeling suicidal and you didn't know if I was going to survive it. And he told me he was heartbroken, and it was so interesting because I said, like, if

you were so heartbroken, why didn't you call? And it was just so fascinating to have this like strange conversation with this person who I used to be so close with, and then it just feels like there's this big gap and this like how do you get back to like

baseline trust? And we just kept talking about it after that conversation, and we you know, there'd be moments where like one of us would cry and the other would cry, and then in the end he just said like this and like I'm so proud of you and I love you and I'm listening now. And he used to get so defensive. And people who don't understand BPD, who are in the thick of it with the other person who's

going through the BBD, like they get so defensive. And it's the more you strip it away, when you understand the behavioral therapy aspect of like how to change the behaviors on both sides to help mend these interpersonal relationship problems, it's just fascinating because it's very clear how the people would be bed, want to be treated and need to

be treated. I haven't had one phone call with a person with BPD who's reached out to me or I've reached out to them and we've told each other our stories. There hasn't been one time that I've given them like a suggestion of or like ask them, is this how you feel and where they've said, no, that's not how

I feel. Like it's been pretty like consistent around the entire the all of the communication where people have told me that I get it, or I've told them they get it, and so it's very clear what's happening to people with BPD. But the problem is that there's two hundred and fifty six different combinations with it. Because there's the nine criteria, the five out of nine symptoms you have to have to be considered borderline, and so then

it presents itself in so many different ways. It also presents differently in men versus women, and so it's hard to get people who don't understand BPD to know it all and know how to de escalate certain situations. But I finally got my dad to the point where he was willing to be patient and validating, and that was like a major change in our relationship for the better.

You know, people ask, you know, for advice about their family situations, like I don't know if my parents would be capable of reuniting with me the way they've reunited with you. And I've said listen, like you trust your gut, you know. I was prepared, and my dad said the same thing. It was wild hearing this from him. He said he had mourned my gut, He had mourned the

loss of me. He thought he would never see me again in this lifetime, and so when it came time to see each other again, it was just really powerful and intense. But he had at a certain point accepted that there might be a chance that we would have never seen each other again. And I think we both had accepted it, you know, And I think that that's kind of where I needed to get to, this acceptance of, like, this person might not show up in my life again.

My mom was there with me throughout it all, like that really really rough time when I first got diagnosed. So it was interesting because she witnessed the whole film being made, Like she witnessed me developing the series of shooting the pilot and everything, and she coached me through

really rough moments. But the interesting thing about that is that she wasn't close to me before that period of my life my dad, So my mom kind of stepped in at this time when my dad kind of couldn't handle what was going on, and then we all have

somehow come out on the other side of it. We had this really beautiful reunion interview with the National Education Allianes for borderline Personality Disorder and I brought them on and you know, they had a rough custody battle for ten and a half years in Queen's Court in New York. I was a kid, and they hadn't talked in at least decade. So I brought them in to show the audience the people, the families who use any ABPD as

a resource that you know, healing is possible. And you know, there was a long time that I did say fuck you dad, you know, and there was times where I said fuck you mom, And there was times that they said fuck you, you know, and like yeah, but it's so fascinating how like who's going to rile you up like that, your family or your whole life, Who's seen every side of you? So there's another element to that that's interesting,

which is, you know, your family is your family. You're born with your family, and it's up to you all to navigate it and to respect each other. And if it doesn't serve you to be in each other's lives, if it's causing everybody more grief than okay, except that if both people have gone off and healed and then come back and already and open, then you can you can navigate the next steps. If not, then that's just

the way it is. And I think that's that's one of the most painful things that I think about of human relationships is actually family relationships, as if you just get so stuck in your own ways as people like both sides, you know that, like you can't hear because when you fight, it's because you care, you know, but maybe you're caring about your feelings more than somebody else's feelings or your perspective or being heard over hearing the other person, and so like both people have to care

enough about the other person, more about the other person than their own than being right to be able to ever get to the point of resolution. So that's been a lifelong journey. That's been a life long journey. And I've I'm thirty one.

concept or this idea and you don't understand. I understand, but you don't understand and you don't listen, and they're both doing that. It's like, hey, just don't just don't get together, like get together and do something good or at the very least, Like I talk about this all the time, the idea that I could be wrong on this podcast. I'm sure I've said something that's either version of the truth of not a version of the truth,

or misleading in some way without intending to. But like I think this, when you turn down the emotion because I want to be right, that's emotion. I believe in this thing that's emotion, and because my belief in that thing is intertwined with my personality. So when you disagree with or you question my belief, then you question me. All that kind of stuff. I go, well, how many times have I been wrong about things. I go, oh, I don't know, maybe a million. I don't know, like

I've been around for a long time. And I go, did I get anything wrong yesterday? I probably conservatively ten, maybe thirty, I don't know. And then you go, well, what are the chances that I'm right now? Well, statistically fucking half, you know, fifty percent if I'm lucky. Where you go, look, I could be like one of the ones that I talk about people with a lot, because everyone understands is like, for example, God, like I grew up in a God house. I grew up with with

belief and faith. And even though I say sweary words and all of that, and and the truth is I believe in God. Do I have any evidence? No? Can I prove it? No? Could it be that there isn't a God? Yep, okay, But it's like, obviously faith is believing in something you can't prove, something for which you have no evidence or data or absoluteness. Otherwise it'd be knowledge,

not faith. But it's very hard to talk to religious people who would even consider that they could be wrong, because their whole sense of security is wrapped around being right. So I can't be even when you go listen bro, statistically, I mean, I don't you could be right. But just think about this. There's twelve major religions four thousand minor religions. They all think like you think, which is that everyone

except me is wrong. Well, you know, it's like, even just from that, I think, of course, there's at least a chance I'm wrong. Of course, you know, is there a chance I'm right? Is there a chance that there's a god? Is there a chance that there's a thing called eternity after this kind of eighty or so years spinning on a blue ball in infinity? Is there a chance?

and have a chance in this life. And bullying is promoted, and negativity is promoted, and pitting people against each other is the.

self awareness. It's like, well, of course, because the only person who can really fuck up my life, even with good and bad things going on, is ultimately me, because I'm the decision maker and the action taker. And if I don't take total accountability for what I do and don't do and what I create, then I'm just going to blame someone for where I end up. If I end up in a great place, it will be my

fault because I'm amazing. But if I don't, it's going to be Kelsey's problem or fault because she did this and she didn't do enough of that. So you know, this is just the ridiculous, inane, unintelligent kind of operating system that so many people are. And when you get in front of charismatic, charming, articulate, well spoken, good looking, attractive, popular people who some of them are sociopaths, of course they've got a fucking following. Of course, people you know,

drink the kool aid. Of course humans. And also we want to belong to a group. We don't like being out here. We want to be in the group. We want to be accepted and loved and needed and valued. So when our group believes something we don't, maybe we don't say it because we don't want to be rejected or rejected you.

the theology, to philosophy, the ideology, fuck all that. What do you think? Like what you we're talking about that knowledge that we have without knowing why when you go into that place that's beyond mind and brain, it's just truth or it's your version of the truth. What do you know in there? Like, that's where I think values

kind of reveal themselves. You know, I've been around sixty years, right, I've done a lot of stuff, bought a lot of stuff in the eyes of the world, have been somewhat successful. Blah blah blah blah blah. But you can get all the stuff own, all the stuff have, all the stuff. Still we medicated for anxiety and depression and sleeplessness. In the middle of all of your success, you're fucking sad, so you're not successful. You just have stuff, you know.

So I think it's that if you can get clear about what your values really are for you and then build a reality around that, it's not the worst start.

knowing where they're going to end up. I mean, if I've learned anything from the doctors and professionals that I've been speaking with, is that no one is exempt from suffering. Which that's very eye opening because you know, I came

from not a lot. I came from, you know, a single mom household with my sisters, and then you know my single dad, and I mean it's harder to raise families, as I say parents, So like both sides, like witnessing how difficult it was for both My mom and my dad to get through raising children, a child or multiple children by themselves. You know, it took its toll on them, and so I. You know, it wasn't easy. It wasn't easy. And I didn't know that I was ever going to

be capable of making anything like I have. I didn't know that I'd be able to carve out a life for myself that I enjoyed. And it took ten thousand hours plus of practice of studying, of dreaming, and that served me well. I mean the dreaming, dreaming bigger, and knowing that no one was going to do that for me, that I had to do that for myself. It pushed me.

And I still struggle, you know, I still have moments where I just go like like when when will the thing happen that will make things even easier, Like I'm ready. But again, if you if if you look back all the way to my childhood, I just I need to remember that have come far. So but this society, it's so hard to deal with with all the stressors and then the constant reminders on in social media telling you all the tragic things that are going on. It's hard.

It's hard to balance that and to push that stuff out.