#2070 Is What I'm Doing Working? - Dr. Lillian Nejad

come to any significant realizations or conclusions or solutions. But I think nonetheless, considering we are a show which is about the human experience, the good and the bad, the peaks and the troughs of psychology, the emotion, the physiology, the sociology of being a person in the middle of other persons, it'd probably be negligent and reticent of us if we did not open that door and have a bit of a chats at the very least. But before we do that, my friend doctor Lillian is back in town.

week or two. And then and then when they just completely relax and switch off the craziness, and it's like their body then goes, oh, thank God, now I need to I don't know, I need to fall. Yeah, I know.

and I exactly what you said. It's you're basically chronically stressed for like between two and four weeks, depending on how long it takes you to get everything sorted out. And so of course then when you know you have that time, your amenity is lower, and so you're gonna you know, you're at a vulnerable to being sick, and then it happens at the worst time because you want that time to enjoy your time off. So it there has to be a better.

I probably had to be in front of the group about talking, not just in front of the group, but actual delivering content, lecturing, teaching, coaching the group, probably twenty hours of content, as well as all the one on ones in between where everyone wants a you know, a hug or a chat or a question or a or a whatever. Right, And I remember I remember in the week feeling, oh my god, I'm going to get sick.

And I knew I was going to get sick about Friday, and I just said to my body, you cannot fucking get sick, So go and get fucked. You can get sick on Monday, bitch. I'm like I am, and I do not know how, but yeah, I just I got through the weekend and I didn't feel amazing, but I definitely wasn't fully blown sick, but I could feel it. Yeah, And then I got home on the Monday night. On the Sunday nights, I did everything I needed to do. I unpacked, I washed some clothes, I responded to a

few emails and that was it. And I was just wiped for about three days. And the next day I got up. I was well. I didn't get up. I probably got up at some stage. But it's just funny because I just willed myself not to let that thing happen that I knew was going to happen, so that I could because nobody else could jump in and just do what I had to do for two days.

do have to push through. But it is funny, Like I was sick for I don't get sick often, thankfully, but I was sick for a few days. Maybe three weeks ago, like sick, like I really wasn't going to be able to do anything sick. But I felt like, you know, you know when you're really busy like I have been, and you're like, well, you can't miss a day because you know, like it wasn't like your fache where you're like presenting to one hundred and thirty people

for three days. It was just like work, work that needs to get done, and you've got a list and you're trying to get through it. But for three days, it was like Nope, I just can't. And I remember thinking to myself, like, but I would have never just taken those three days off to make myself feel better. I had to get sick to give myself permission to have time out, and that's actually not okay, Like I need to like really rethink that that situation a little

bit more, because those three days were great. I mean, I wasn't feeling well, but like the fact that I had that time away and I felt like there was like zero guilt about having the time away. It's like, no, I'm sick, and usually I feel like my normal way is guilt free time away like that doesn't usually bother me. To like stop working. Yeah, yeah, but I feel like

the last few months haven't been like that. I feel like I've been pulled in so many different directions and need to do and complete so many different things before the end of the year that I'm not giving myself as much permission. And so it's like, oh, well, thank goodness I had those sick days, I could have some time off.

but there's so many things to think about. So there's you know, for me, it's like so many different work things like probably I could list probably ten, but like maybe four major things. Yes, And then you've got your children and what they're doing and how they're progressing, and their lives and their social lives and their emotions. And then you've got you know, your partner and what they're going through, and the wider family and my family in

the US. So there's all of that, and then you just got the regular routine stuff, you know, the laundry and the groceries, and my partner is he's doing the bulk of that, like I'm not even doing the bulk of it, and it's still a lot. And even cooking and he likes to cook. I don't have to cook ninety percent of the time, so that's amazing for me. So yeah, all of those things can an emotional toll.

Of course, again, like there's like yes of me today, It's like I had this like very heavy feeling today, I feel much flatter. I was really looking forward to talking to you today. Like for the last few weeks, I'm like, oh, I miss Craig, I haven't been. I feel like I haven't been on the show in eighties. I ran into you like last week and I told you I looking, you know, really looking forward to it.

the phone, Like that just derails me. And the cognitive load is you know, like right now, my submission date for my you know study is tomorrow, one month and so everybody's like, what are you doing for Christmas? I'm like fucking sitting at my desk. Yeah, like, oh, can't you just have a week. I'm like you, I wish,

I wish I could have a week. It's like, there will not be one day between now and January sixteen where I'm not writing or doing it you know, where I'm not or I'm not worth on my thesis, not editing, not trying to figure something out. And that's okay, nobody made me do it, and there's no self pity in that. But it's hey, Interestingly, I ask chat GPT, is there a name for the phenomenon when people get sick in the worth for worth sorry first week of holidays? Yeah,

and it says, yes, Craig, there is. It's most commonly called leisure sickness. This refers to the phenomenon when people become ill colds, flu like symptoms, headache, fatigue, gi issues right as a holiday or break begins, often in the first days. What's going on underneath it? Thanks for asking chatters. Stress withdrawal when you've been running on adrenaline, cortersole and sympathetic nervous system activation. Your body finally downregulates and the

immune system can temporarily dip delayed immune response. Stress hormones can suppress immune function. When stress drops, symptoms that were held back show up. Sleep pattern changes over sleeping a regular sleep can disrupt immune regulation. Behavioral shift changes in diet, alcohol, routine and exposure planes and crowds, psychophysiological rebound. The body finally has permission to stop coping. It's not imaginary and

it's been documented in occupational health and stress research. And then it says, if you want a more Craigish way of saying it for a post or podcast, then it says, your body doesn't get sick on holidays. It gets honest. And then it says or more clinical sustain stress days substrained, bloody hell, sustained stress, delays illness, rest reveals it. Yes, so it's a real thing. It's a real so is Yeah, it's therapy that's required.

But yesterday there was a terrorist attack. Yesterday being Sunday, the fourteenth of December in Australia, there was a terrorist attack where a bunch of people at a Jewish festival or Jewish celebration Hannuka. Sixteen people I think as we record, were killed, and somewhere up around as that forty people were injured. I think somewhere in the ballpark and so that's you know, for a country that is very, very very anti guns. And obviously it was two gun men.

I didn't say that it was two gunmen. And so it's just been a it's been a lot, and we're not used to this stuff. We're not used to this. So it's been all over the media. It's been NonStop, and I had to turn off for Telly, Like I watched quite a bit, but I just went, I can't keep watching because there's no real ess and I'm not putting my head in the sand. I know what's going on.

I'm not pretending it didn't happen. It makes me sad, it makes me all the things that makes me a bit angry, It makes me all those normal human emotional and psychological reactions that I would think most, if not all, of you had a version of also. But I guess so you and I probably felt very similar. We had a chat on the phone before we started recording, but I guess I wanted to talk today a little bit about so a lot of things that happened to us and around us, you know, as we just navigate life.

We didn't choose and we didn't want and obviously none of us chose this or wanted this, and just you know, as a country, and of course more importantly for the people themselves that were hurt or killed and their families. But how do we I guess there's no three step plan to react to hard things? You know, how long do we allow ourselves to ah, you know, feel what we feel? I guess there's no number, And that's maybe a dumb question. But do we also need to realize

that we've got to then practically move forward? Doc Like, I'm sad, I'm angry, I'm anxious, I'm a bit scared, I'm all the things. How long can we sit in that?

really come for that's certainly comforting for me. I think that's really how we get through tough things. A lot of the time is with other people. So and like you were saying, you don't want to like inundate yourself with news, I think that that can be really I think what like what happens when we have an event like yesterday, which it's like, it's so horrible to say, but you were saying, like we're not used to this, and like no one should be used to this. Yes,

but we but we really aren't. Yes, and it really rocks your sense of safety even though it's unusual.

But yes, it's very reasonable. I feel really shitty today. I know a lot of other people feel that way. And on top of that, there's you know, the closer you are probably to that area, you're going to feel more even more anxious. And it makes sense to feel

that way, even thinking about going to bond Aid. Like for me, like it's you know, like I have a nephew coming to visit in March and I was like one of you know, I was like, oh gosh, you know, like that's one of the places it was just and you know, recently with my mother, and it's such a beautiful, iconic place and you don't think of it as you don't think of any place in Australia's unsafe, but kind of that, those are just our immediate kind of reactions

to things, you know, and it makes sense to have those immediate reactions. And I think like anything that's really tough and hard and that we hate that you know, shouldn't happen. And you know, the unfair things that happen in life that really you can't do anything about and you can't control. It's just yeah, it's a sense of yeah, real sadness and grief about that, but also like you still everything's the world still turns. Things still, you know, Yeah.

it was just horrendous. Anyway, Like an idiot, I just went watched this what's this? And I played it? So that didn't help. And I mean, at the same time, I want to be aware, I want to be informed, I want to care, but I also know at the same time I can't do anything to change it or undo what's been done. And so I like, as a student of human behavior literally and you know, just experientially

out in the field. I'm really interested in just what happened now, Like, and you know, the fear and even the paranoia and the outrage and all of those things,

I totally understand. Yeah, And I'm not saying people shouldn't be outraged or you know, I think what we do next practically really matters and how you know, because jumping up and down and being mad is totally understandable, but it probably doesn't move the needle in a positive way on anything, right, So I just think, you know, what happens next, And I also think, like I was thinking about this this morning, and I'm like, I personally, in my whole life, I've never ever, in my whole life

tried to hurt anyone physically ever in my life who wasn't already trying to hurt me, right, so somebody was trying to punch me in the face or something, which you know, I worked in pubs and did security for years, but you know, so I've been in a few scuffles in my life and all of that, but every time defending myself and not you know, but the the standalone objective of killing people. But that's what they set out

to do just kill humans that they don't know. It's both disgusting and in a way fascinating, not good fascinating, like terrible fascinating. But part of me thinks we can't overcome what we don't understand, and obviously the shooting is the byproduct of some kind of weird, fucked up thinking and mindset and ideology and beliefs, and like, I'm curious

about that. I'm curious about what drives these people. Not so of course that I want to on any level a line or condone, of course, but I want to understand why they are the way they are, so we can deal with that before we get to what we

got to yesterday. You know, you think about this like you and I live in a world where, on a pretty regular basis, a teenager will put on a vest with explosives and happily, probably nervously, but happily go and blow himself and civilians up, usually him, in the belief that they are doing something good and noble. You know that happens at the same time as somebody in Brighton is getting a skinny latte at the pantry and ordering porridge.

You know, somewhere else in the world, someone's been so indoctrinated that they And also to think about the reality that evil people who do evil things don't think they're evil. Yeah, Like they don't think people who do bad shit think they're doing good shit, like they have a story. It's like every religion thinks all the other religions are wrong. You know, there is not one religion that thinks that they're wrong. Everyone's every political party thinks every other party

or idiots. Like, it's just we live in an echo chamber, all of us individuals and collectively like our own echo chambers. And I'm like, Wow, when people grow up indoctrinated with evil ideologies, that's what you get.

I'm noting that you do, but but like there's no justifiable reason or like the reason that's going to make sense or any you know, like and that's probably why I'm not a forensic psychologist because I just I don't want to work with people who do bad things intentionally, yeah, and then feel like there's some kind of justification for

it when there really isn't. So yeah, I totally get like we do need to understand because we need that's the way of prevention, right, you understand what you can prevent. I'm not I'm not ready to have that conversation because

it's maybe it's just it's too soon. But maybe I'm maybe I'm not the right person either, because like you know, like you know, when you see like the footage of and you know, I maybe people would be surprised by this because I'm a psychologist, but like when you see the footage of that man who was able to get the arrest to get the gun away from the other man, and he showed like the restraint he showed by not doing anything with that gun, I'm like, I don't know

if I would be able to show that level of a restraint. That's that's to me amazing. But yeah, I just, of course, you know, like that's saying everything happens for a reason. I don't believe that in the way that people usually mean it. Yes, So like it's usually meant as you know, if a bad thing happens, you'll find out what the reason is in the future kind of thing, yes, right, and some kind of destiny or fate or something. You know, there's a something in effect that's creating a reality that

you don't know about yet whatever. I don't believe in that because I just think some things are just unfair and wrong and things shit happens, and it doesn't mean that something good's going to come acce it.

This is practicality. And so you know, we want to be compassionate and kind and loving and we want to support the people that are going through this. And I reckon I've hugged about ten people today who are upset and and I'm upset, but yeah, I'm very much. I want to understand this fucking evil yeah, so that we can do something about it. But anyway, and that's what.

as of now, or we might never understand. But that doesn't mean that there weren't things that led up to it, and they might not be reasonable reasons, they're just reasons, whereas the other way is just magical things.

everyone sad for an hour. So let's let's just put a little bow on that and say, to all those people who were affected directly or indirectly by what happened at Bondio, you know we're sending you love and kind of best wishes and all the vibes. And I know that doesn't mean much, but if intention counts, well, then you know there's some love coming from here. And yeah, let's hope that that doesn't happen again ever in Australia.

I don't like my chances of that, but let's hope that we don't have to deal with that in the near future or the distant future. Let's hope that doesn't happen again. All right, let's talk about something that's a bit of a left Okay, I want I wanted to Okay, so let's shake shake that heaviness off for a moment.

I want to talk to you about the difference between pursuing happiness or success or fulfillment or getting that internal state if you had to describe before I ask the question, if you had to describe the internal state that people most typically want, Yeah, what is that state? Missus psychologist?

we went extreme opposite, maybe it is contentment. Although I feel like contentment is more about no matter how you're feeling or what's going on in your life, yes, that you still feel internally okay, like oh not necessarily like emotionally, but like you know who you are, you know what you stand for, you know what your values are, Like that level of contentment, like you know that whatever happens,

you'll be able to cope. So you still might feel anxious at times, like because that's just human experience, But overall, there's a feeling of contentment, like an inner kind of an inner piece that you have.

I think I've done Okay. Yeah, I don't think I'm a superstar, but I wouldn't feel like, oh fuck, I've been an abject failure in my whole life. I wouldn't be miserable, you know. But at the same time I can go I have gratitude. My life is good, my relationships are good, my health is good, touch wood, my career, all of those things, like I'm really really call it fortunate, blessed, whatever. But in the middle of that, I'm very grateful also and innother breaking news, I have goals.

of that is acceptance and change. So we so we The idea of it is you can accept yourself fully and at the same time know that you can do better right and change yes, right, And even though that seems opposite to each other and that you can't be both at the same time. The reality is that you can have both the same time, and that we often think in opposites, but that doesn't actually reflect reality. It's like just a simplistic view or a perspective that we

take to make things seem more I guess simple. But the reality is it's a lot more complex than that. So for you to say like, I'm content and I have goals and I want, you know, and I'm ambitious to me, doesn't seem wrong or like it seems like no, you can you can have both. Yes, it's a dialectic, that's what she calls that, a dialectic. So, yeah, because I feel the same. I feel like I'm a fairly content person and I am ambitious as well. I like to do lots of things, and I'm working towards lots

of things. And do I have to know? I don't have to. I don't have to. If I don't do those things, I'll still feel content.

way of thinking. That's cognitive behavioral therapy, where acceptance and commitment therapy will say, well, we have you know, we have lots of thoughts and some of them are you know, not particularly helpful or healthy, but we don't really need to attach ourselves to our thoughts. Thoughts are just experiences

that we have. We can just accept them that they happen, we can identify them and then choose to continue to move towards our goals because we're attending more to our values rather than all of these internal experiences that we might be having. So it's kind of a different way, say, like an acceptance pathway to better mental health, whereas cognitive

therapy is more change pathway to better mental health. And I think both are useful, and both both are evidence based and both can help, and I use both with my clients. And DBT is kind of both DBT, So DBT has the change skills in it and it also has the acceptance skills in it. So that's I do actually tend to gravitate towards DBT's perspective and way of thinking about things because I think it encompasses both really well,

and it gives people. It gives people options to in terms of how like how their mind works, what they think suits them, would they prefer to be Does it make more sense for them to accept all of their thoughts and emotions, or does it make more sen sense to maybe be more analytical and and modify and change. And because of both work. You know, they have a good they have choices and options. So what do you think would look better for you?

talking more metaphorically. Yeah, and that very real part of the human experience where wherever, where we're at, it's not where we want to be. Yeah, Like very few people go, you know what, my job awesome. I don't want any more money. I don't want to change anything or my you know, it's my body. I'm happy with my body. It's great. I don't need to be any more of this or any less of that. I'm fully locked in and content. And it's like this idea that this is where I am and this is where I want to

be with whatever component of our existence. It could be fitness or health or career or money, or relationships or whatever. It could be a myriad of things. It could be my spiritual journey. Right, this is where I am, and that's where I want to be. And I know that when I move from this place and I get to that place, there's an underlying belief that there will be some kind of with the practical change and shift, there will be some correlated internal shift, like I'll be like

nobody thinks. Nobody sets a goal because they want to be less happy or less content or or more anxious. I think most peopleeople you know, when you just talk to them, they assume that, well, when I achieved that own that earn that look like that way that do that create that achieve that, then I am going to be, you know, whatever the appropriate inner state is. And then

we get there. And I did that, and I like what many times with many things, like first time was when I got in great shape, only to realize I was still an overthinking, insecure, fucking attention seeking twenty twenty year old, Like I was just the fat, insecure kid in a different vehicle, like I just like I'd renovated my body, but my emotions and thoughts and feelings and they were essentially like carryover from six years before when

I was the fattest kid at school. So you know, and that's not to say one caused the other, but you could have this this really good, healthy, functional, strong, maybe even attractive physike, but no positive correlated experience on the inside, you know. And then and then so I'm like.

to the point where you're not poor. Now you can buy stuff, you can own stuff, you can travel, you can you want that motorbike, go buy that motorbike. Like you can do stuff. And that's funny. In the middle of that, I'm like, oh, and I think realizing that I had this flawed belief system that when I arrived at a certain place financially or professionally, or esthetically or biologically or whatever it was, there would be some absolute

positive correlated experience. And I went, oh, fuck, So I had to, you know, go back to the start of the book and start researching and thinking again, Yeah, that.

acceptance and fulfillment. But what we're actually doing is is trying to create safety and security.

to be accepted. I want you know. So I was always trying to get approval and acceptance and love through how I looked, because I always got rejected for how I looked. So I'm like, well, the solution to this rejection is I get a body that doesn't get rejected. So when I have the opposite of what I had, so that fat body got me rejected and socially isolated

and no one was interested in me romantically or physically. Right, So what I need to do is I need to go get the opposite of this current version and bibbity bobby boo, all that horrible shit will go away. Well it didn't though, you know, but it was. It wasn't the worst logic, I mean, as it turns out, but coming from that experience when my relationship, like I went, oh, well this is how I look and as a result, this is how I get treated. The answer is don't

look like this. It's for a fourteen year old. It's kind of a logical step.

be with the money. It's always like the goal is always the conduit to the thing that you really want. So it's not really your goal, it's just the mechanism. It's just the pathway. And so but the assumption is sometimes we get it, we take that path and we get where we wanted to go. We go, oh, fuck, it's the wrong path. Well, fuck, I climbed the wrong mountain. It's that mountain over there.

at different degrees as well, you know. So I have sometimes I have these clarity sessions with my clients and we start with with the needs questionnaire and they just rate, you know, the level that they that they're being met, and then from that in the different categories, and then from that you can kind of get a sense of like, oh,

what areas are there where they're the most unmet needs? Yeah, and then then you've got a place where you can start creating goals that make sense and actually know what they're trying to achieve from those goals from the beginning. Yeah, Yes, And.

just it's called Into the Wild. It's directed by Sean Penn, and it's based on John Crackour's book about Christopher mccandle's or McCandless I think it is. But remember like he just wanted to be out in nature and da da da, and he kind of finally figured out, I know, we all just need people like you can't like we're not

an island. And yeah, I really that quite affected me that movie, and he rejected he rejected modernity, and he rejected you know, possessions and money and social expectations and yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah.

ask myself? Oh, like, there's a million, right, But I said, here's a pretty good question if you ask it and you explore it and you answer it and then you do something about it. And the question is is what I'm doing working? Right? You can apply that to your food, your lifestyle, your sleep, your business, your relationships. And I'm like, because there are so many things that we do on autopilot that aren't working. Now, I know that seems overly simplistic,

but I said to him. He actually went and got a serviette. We're at the Hamptons, and I go, so, write this question, is what I'm doing working? And then I gave him kind of fifteen areas of the human experience. I said, so apply that question to all of these different areas of your life, and then you could spend a week working on that. You could you know, well, what am I currently doing in regards to my health? What am I doing that's not working?

not start. So then once we get that kind of that framework and that awareness and that acknowledgment, now then I want you to pick the five things that you really need to do. Don't don't throw the rest out, but let's just focus on, you know, creating some momentum and moving the needle on a few things. And I'm not talking about let's run a marriag fun in three weeks, so let's build an empire by fucking February. I'm just saying,

let's start to move the needle. If you had to ask somebody like one of those kinds of questions, that might really give context too. And what I like about those kinds of questions is they're really broadly relevant. You can almost ask it about. Do you have a similar one that you ask people?

by labeling yourself. You actually have to know what they are and so you can do something specific about them. And then in terms of obstacles, then I will get them to think about well them in terms of categories, because I think there's so many different kinds of obstacles. So what are the emotional obstacles, what are the thoughts getting in the way, what are the behaviors getting in the way, what are the relationships getting in the way, and what are the circumstances that could be getting in

the way. And I think that that like those two questions like what's important to you and what's getting in the way, can lead to what you're saying it's like, okay, if I have. If I have, then I can kind of well, what's important to me? Then I know what my goals and my values and goals are. And then well, if I'm not I haven't been able to reach my goals, then I really need some clarity about what's getting in

the way. And if I look at them in those five categories, I'll be able to figure out, well, what are the main things. Is it because I'm telling myself that I can't or my definition of success is very black and white, or is it anxiety, you know, and fear that's getting in the way, or is it do I have people in my life that are actually creating difficulties? Yes, for however however they might be doing that. Are they

putting are they putting blocks up? Or do I have too many things on my plate and I can't do it because of the relationships and the circumstances, Or there might be other circumstances like you know, I'm a care and I don't have time, or I have an injury, or you know, like there's there's so many different circumstance, financial circumstance things again in the way, Because it's quite a validating process too, So it's saying, like, you know, there are real reasons. It's not just about you being

a person who can't do it. You know.

it is. And it's not we're not trying to throw anyone under the bus, but I think that, you know, like if I had two hundred people in a room, and I've done a version of this probably over a thousand times, and I say, put up your hand if there's something about you or your life or your lifestyle or your body or your outcomes something, don't overthink it, just be that you want to change that you want

to change, and every hand goes up. Of course, I go, now put up your hand if there's multiple things, and every hand goes up. And because life happens around us and despite us and to us, you know, and it's like life happens anyway. You can be a passenger in

your own life. You can. You can blink your eyes and it's fucking three years later, and you're telling yourself the same stories and you've still got the same intentions and the same plans and the same ideas, but you're still doing the same dumb shit, which is keeping you trapped in a psychological, emotional, physiological, clinical groundhog day because you're not actually doing anything to get out of those

patterns and rituals that are keeping you trapped. So you know, and this is a real exercise size in self awareness and to go listen, my life ain't going to fix itself. My health, my immune system, my shitty posture, my fucking overthinking mind. Like that's not going to just one day be better. I need to do some work and I need to identify one, what are the things that I need to or want to change? In two what is the work that I need to do?

in the situation. But I think that people can get really stuck in like what should be, which should be you know, easier to reach my goals for instance, and

not really looking at what actually the reality is. It's like, well, let's accept the reality that it's actually not easy and that it's full and you have you know, you have to do A before B and you know, and and that that doesn't have to be something you judge yourself for if your pace is a little bit different to somebody else's or your A is further from the further

from the B than it is for somebody else. Yes, I think, yeah, I think judgment is and you've said that, but self loathing thing that people can can get into is that's what keeps people really really stuck and certainly one of the main obstacles to getting things done.

what can I learn? What will I do differently? What am I going to do now? Like, what's my action now? And so, of course you're flawed. Of course you're an idiot, and then of course you're brilliant, and of course you have peaks and troughs, and of course you're sad and now you're happy, and of course you have breakthroughs and breakdowns.

Of course, you know this is the human experience. We're not telling you not to be broken, because sometimes you're going to be and sometimes you're going to be a bit brilliant, you know. So the challenge is, let's navigate being human, but let's control our controllables and let's try to live consciously and proactively rather than unconsciously and reactively.