I get a tam it's a you project, It's Jumbo, It's Fatty Harps, It's Craig Anthony Harperrids, Tiffany and Cook, It's Robert, Robert, Robert. What's your middle name again? What's his middle name? Roberts? Do you have a middle name, Bobby does? It's Joseph Joseph. Of course I knew that. Robert, Joseph Capuccio, Tiffany and Cook, tiff What are you looking like that? Did your dog just break into your studio the door?
Did you slide a jar? And I'm like, if that is bere we are in for a ride.
Wow. Wow, Well, there's no animal that's going to break into my studio because I'm animal less, but I could be animal full by about February or March, depending on the outcome of my PhD and the timing with that. And you did send me a photograph of a dog, tiff that's the most terrifying fucking canine I've ever laid eyes.
On, but so weirdly beautiful, captivating, even kind.
Of look like an old leather boot that was three foot high. A Mexican can hairless. Is that what it's called?
Yes? Yes, I'm trying to google the pronunciation of the breed because the word itself to read is yeah.
Because which sounds like a cat more than a dog, and it's it's bobby. You should see this dog. It's like the size of a labrador or bigger, but it's got zero hair, and it looks like maybe like the size of a big greyhound. Well it looks it's.
Kind of yeah, it's kind of like a maybe a Doberman size.
Yeah, it's big, and it looks like it's made of leather.
So it's pronounced queen tlea sholder.
Sorry say that again.
Show lo eats queen tea, which is spelled x O l o I t z c u I n t l I. No one in the world could possibly look at that word and pronounce that correctly, unless maybe they were Mexican.
I'm yeah, or I bet somebody could. Yeah, that's a weird looking dog. What was it like in that that kind of like I was a bit intrigued and a bit repelled and a bit curious what it's like. Kind of ugly but almost beautiful. Ugly.
Look. I just saw it from a distance and it looked like an old like one of those statues that sits on the pillars of an old castle. It looked like that had come alive out of stone and just strolled on into sin Kilda. And they've got a really beautiful temperament. They look like they would be kind of an aggressive fighting dog. It's beautiful.
I would imagine they would be. They're probably called all the time that would piss me off.
Yes, I had a.
Friend of mine. I had a friend of mine who she used to breed hairless sphinx and I went to replace one night and there were five of them, and they had these weird jumpers on because they get quite cold, and it's just like a bunch of house cats and jumpers. So already it's like, oh, this is what people talk about when they talk about like a really bad acid trip. This must be exactly.
Like Wow, wow, I imagine hayless cat in a jumper. You'd already have enough is shoes, having no hair when all the other fucking cats have got here, and then I just jump.
It was like little turtlenecks they were all running around in. And they turned out to be, like most cats, highly intelligent and so interactive and affectionate. Two of them climbed me at the same time, at the same exact pace, and both started licking each side of my head.
Wow, which we are we still having the same chat? Are we talking about your box? Not? Because I think those stories are interchangeable. Oh that's great, That's just great.
Welcome, Welcome to the show, everybody, And if it's the three of you who are still here, we'll try and regale you with some stories and some potentially something of value that might help you, I don't know, do something positive.
With your life, or your time or your energy. TIF what have you been up to this morning? Anytime?
Oh, anytime, anytime. I've been out and about a lot lately. So this morning I tried to have a sleep and I slept into a whopping six am, which is quite quite a profound sleeping for me as of late. Been enjoying the sun, eating cookies obviously, and catching up on.
Work, all the basics. Vital Well, Now, Fatty Harps is on the home straight. I feel like I've been saying that for fucking three years, but I'm actually on the home of my PhD, my timeline, my candi. That you finishes January sixteenth, so like it or not, it's coming to an end, so there's absolutely no pressure with any of that. And great sleep, great sleep. No, I'm actually sleeping all right.
But I see the imprint of a birthday hat on your head somewhere today, Can I see that? Oh? Wow?
I went and saw I went and saw Mary Harper. And the old Da was eighty six yesterday, December three, the year of our Lord, nineteen thirty nine, and o domini she was now an interesting story. I don't know if if you do bump into my mum anyone, don't mention this because it's not the it's not the most uplifting story. But my mom's mom died giving birth to
my mum, so my mom never knew her mum. So it's like you know when you like, oh, who are you like out of your parents, or it's like, well, yeah, so she she was born nine thirty nine, first year of the World War, and she's still around. And it was great to see the old Dahl and the old man is not you're not moving like a gazelle. Will say that he's not going to do any fucking ten
k time trial anytime soon. But it was good to catch up with him and eat some food and talk shit and then head home at stupid o'clock and have nine minutes of sleep and then get up and ingest some caffeine just to get my brain working. And here we are. What about you, Robert, how have you been? What have you been up to?
I've been having a lot of caffeine as well, probably a bit too much, just work. Last week was a holiday here in the US, Thanksgiving?
What is the origin story of Thanksgiving?
For us?
Non Thanksgiving people? I know that I think a few Australians actually celebrate it, but it's obviously not an Australian holiday. And I'm sure every American knows every once of the story of its its genesis. But what can you bobby a fight in sixty seconds?
For us?
What is Thanksgiving about?
Well, it's when the Pilgrims left Plymouth, England and landed in well Plymouth coincidentally and by way of Holland. I believe we leave that bit out, and they met the Native Americans and they formed this lovely friendship because the Native Americans helped them through the first hard winter, and without the help of the Native Americans they would not have survived.
And then to show their appreciation, they gave.
Them small parks and basically killed everyone in horribly violent and sadistic ways. And every year we celebrate that on Thanksgiving.
What, well, that's the worst story I've ever heard. Are you trying to depress any everyone?
Okay? School, well, school, you hear that?
Okay?
That they came in, they made great friends with these Native American people who were very, very different from them, and apparently the Pilgrims had enormous respect and curiosity about
people's differences. When you get to know the story, and they had this big feast to celebrate how grateful they were and they called this Thanksgiving, and you know, then you get a little bit older and you start to learn a little bit more history, and it's like, I don't know, I don't know if if I could say that the historical relationship between the indigenous people in the United States and people who came over from Europe was
always defined as friendly. So what it depends on your definition of the word friendship.
So what is it now like in twenty twenty five? What is it? And I'm sure I'm sure that maybe that for some people that the historical kind of relevance may shouldn't have but may have disappeared, Like what is it? And that story shouldn't be forgotten or it should probably be taught and told more. But what is it in twenty twenty five is where families just get together and hang out?
Yeah? Now, I mean, now it's just the day to get together. And I mean I don't want to be cynical at all, and typically I'm not cynical. But for for some people, I guess it's it's it's just a really important national holiday. For other people, it's a reason to get together with family members that you haven't seen all the year. You know, some of which you love, some of who you despise, and you get together with
them purely out of obligation. You eat a perverse amount of food and drink, and you know, just pass out in a stupor.
Is there any kind of what's the word pushback? Like in Australia, we have on January twenty sixth, correct me if I'm wrong, tiff thing called Australia Day, and that gets quite a lot of pushback because the origin story, the story you just told us not that different, you know for Australia. And I'm not trying to be political or polarize anyone. I'm just curious, like, and there's been a lot of let's say, argument and debate even conflict around whether or not Australia Day should be a thing.
And I'm not saying it should or it shouldn't. I'm just talking about what's been going on over the last decade or two. Is there any pushback in the States against this celebration.
I don't hear that much about Thanksgiving, and I'm sure there is pushback, But we've had pushback on certain holidays, like Columbus Day, for example. That's been an ongoing debate because the story of Christopher Columbus it's not I mean, there's a couple of different origin stories, let's just put it that way. They don't line up with one another
very well. But but here in you know, the United States, where we're very much against revisionist history, we like to we like to confront the past, all of our achievements and our mistakes, and take a sobering, honest view at what we have done and who we are, and how we can learn from that and just basically become better people and build a society that respects differences and works for as many people as possible.
It's the pulse button. Okay, I want to chat about something else. Thank you for that. Thank you for enlightening me. I was chatting with somebody this morning and sounds clachy and not true. It's completely true. And I've been asked a version of this question a lot, and it was essentially it wasn't exactly this question, but it was kind of what they were asking, which is essentially, how do I find my purpose? Right? Like? What I'm the thing?
And it's just a really it's an interesting conversation that I wanted to open up for both you and also around that. So what's my purpose?
Like?
Do I have one? Or maybe I have multiple purposes? And what does that even mean? Purpose? Am I like a utensil in my life? It feels like we just have one thing that we are capable of doing. On top of that, does my purpose stay the same or can it change? Can it evolve? Was my purpose or my focus or my life meaning or whatever? Twenty five at twenty five the same as when I'm sixty two? Does it need to be? Can I change my mind?
How do I find my purpose? Do I? Is it some kind of spiritual or existential revelation or awareness that happens upon me. Or is it just like I have an experience or I just literally make a decision. What do you what are your thoughts around I'm going to start with you, actually, Tiff, What do you in terms of when somebody says to you life purpose? What do you think about? Do you think of a single thing, multiple things, or you don't think about that in that way at all.
I think it changes, and I think it I think of multiple things because it's evolved over time. And I think the more we learn and evolve and land in new places and when I have a different outlook, Like you know, when I was living in Tazzy, my purpose was just grow up, get a job, make some money, do the thing. And then I moved and then my world opened up and I read some books and my world changed and my purpose became different, and it was
it was a different version of that same thing. Like I when I went to India last year and I stood on that mountain and I went, oh, huh, you think that you're doing life so differently? Or sometimes I have conversations on these shows and I think to myself, oh, you think you're doing life so differently. You think you've broken the mold. You are the mold like you are.
You have not broken any molds. You're still do the same versions of things that are just one point removed from that little box that you initially.
Thought was Like, I feel like I'm going to ask you in a sec Bobby, but I feel like for me, for me, my purpose has to be bigger than me, Like it can't really be. Of course, it's a bit about me, but it's really a bit about me being of that. And I know this sounds cliche and bullshitty, but it's true for me being of service and value. And you know, like even with this show, hopefully people
enjoy it, Hopefully people get something from it. Hopefully people get a bit of enlightenment or a bit of enjoyment or a bit of inspiration, and then hopefully they make a decision or two and hopefully they take some action. Hopefully they create some results that they may not have created had they not intersected with the you project. Hopefully, right, So, I feel like, you know, there's when I used to want stuff for me that I think that was just more about my focus and my self centered kind of
needs rather than a purpose. I don't know that I even had a purpose when I was young, other than just fucking looking after me, which really it doesn't you know, to me, purpose has got to be beyond me and bigger than me, I think, Bobby, I'll go on, Tiff, Sorry.
I was just going to ask you about that. When do do you feel like there was a moment where you really landed on that idea of it being bigger than you?
Luck? Yeah, I think without reopening a door that's been maybe too many times and listeners, apologies, but I think once I started to open the let's just call it the god door, where I just came became more interested in or curious about, you know, is there anything beyond what I can see and touch and feel and what I think is and try, you know, like, what does
that mean? And I think, really for me, when I became moderately successful, when I was moderately young, and I was making you know, pretty good dough, and I had a pretty good thing going on by the time I was in my mid to late twenties. You know, I wasn't rich, but I was, and even in the middle
of going great, I'm like, ah, this isn't bad. This is definitely you know, my goal is not to make less money, but clearly this isn't what it's about, because I still the things that I felt, which is an adequate and insecure and somewhat unfulfilled and periodically anxious and a bit sad, and that was all still there. And then I realized my revelation was when I focus more on others, I'm less selfish. And also there's and it almost sounds selfish, like doing something for others to get
something for you. But I just noticed that when I'm not all about me, and when i'm you know, genuinely trying to be of value and service to others, I'm a better version of me. And so I try to, you know, at least have that attitude through the day. And of course sometimes I'm a selfish prick, and sometimes
I'm all about me, and sometimes I'm unaware. So I acknowledge all of that, but I know for me personally, absolutely unequivocally, that when I have a purpose bigger than me, I'm just a much better human.
Can you remember last question? Can you remember the first big other focused experience that really hamm'd a home?
Well, I've had quite a few. The earliest one or just one does have to be the first one.
Just one, No, just one?
Well, I just think again without playing a broken record, like working with Johnny for all the years. John's a friend of mine. I know, my listeners know. But those three of you who don't, who got literally blown up in an industrial accident of work accident, some gas bottles exploded and all that, and so eight years ago, it was eight years ago, about three or four days ago, you know, and just and you know him. How beautiful is he? How amazing is he? Yeah? And I mean,
here's this guy who's got a traumatic brain injury. He's got to put a thing up. He's a wizor to have a whee. He's got a bag for pooh. He's got a spinal cord. He knows. He doesn't mind me talking about this, like he can't pooh, he can't where, he can't have sex. He's in constant pain. He's got a spinal cord injury. He's got a traumatic brain injury. His life is I mean hard, doesn't come close, right, Never complaints. You've probably been in the gym four five
hundred times when he trains. Never complaints, just doesn't plane. And for me to be able to be to be a tiny bit of something positive in his life gives me so much more joy than anything I do for myself. Yeah, you know so, Bobby, Sorry for leaving you over in the virtual corner all that time.
It's not the first time it's happened. I mean, that's the virtual corner. This is the first time in the virtual corner. Feels a little bit different. I think everyone has a purpose. I think we need to define it. Like when we say purpose, what exactly are we talking about?
Good question I'm talking about.
When I say purpose, is what happens when you have a strongly rooted value, something that's really meaningful to you. Like let's say love of learning. That's something that is meaningful to me, and when I engage in it, it makes me feel more alive. Now when you go out and you express that in the world. Let's say I'm sitting around a coffee table and I'm sharing these ideas that have deeply impacted me and I found them to be valuable and they impact other people around me.
Not everyone around me.
Some people couldn't give a shit and wish I would like shut up and stop going on about this book I'm reading, but other people it impacts them in a way that elevates their well being, either in the moment or long term. And when you are expressing those values in a way that impacts people to elevate their well being, I believe that is your purpose.
Yeah. Yeah, So have you changed your mind or changed your focus or change your trajectory along the way? I mean, I know I've changed my mind on many things, and I've had to unlearned things and know and up to things I got wrong. And but what about you?
Have you like?
Is are you pretty much just a twenty year older version of the blow from two decades ago? Or are you different? And if so, how and how is your focus and your purpose and passion different?
If it is, I hope I've changed. I hope my focus and lens is different. I'm not all that sure that my values have shifted that much, although they do shift year to year. I've taken I like the via assessment from doctor Morton Seligman because it's coming from the perspective that your highest values and your signature strengths are one and the same. And I strongly believe that, and I think that has a lot of utility to it. Yeah, if you are living out a value consistently, you're probably
going to develop some skill. You're probably going to develop some proficiency within that area, whether that shows up in work or parenting. So I like that concept. So every few years my value shift, but my highest values they might shift in order a priority, but they stay fairly consistent.
Mm. Is there something, Tiff, Is there something over the last I don't know how long that you've changed your mind about that or you think you got wrong or in the context of the big picture stuff life, how you live, you know, maybe even values. Is there something that you've changed your mind about there doesn't need to be, So if there isn't just go no, not really.
But I think I have an awareness that I would like to and am not yet stepping out to expand. I don't know what I've experienced and what I where I want to end up or what I want to do. Like I just yeah, I don't know. I'm very aware that I maybe to a degree, I love what I'm doing and I love where I'm heading, but I I don't know, I don't know what I'm trying.
How much of us? So all three of us get in front of audiences, right, Yeah, I'm going to start with you, Bobby, and then come back to you. TIF. How much of what you talk about when you're in front of a group, Bobby, is something that you read or what we might call a quiet knowledge. You know, you read it, you heard it, and you do a lot of reading, and you've got a fucking incredible memory that I don't have, So I'm forever jealous of your
amazing brain and your amazing memory. How much of what you share, and I'm sure it varies a little, but is just about stuff that you've learned acquiet knowledge research, all that kind of theoretical stuff, which is also important. And how much is just shit you've learned along the way, like experiential stuff that you go, Okay, I've been through a situation like that, and this is what happened and this is how I figured it out.
When I'm at my best. It's one hundred percent in both categories. There's no delineation because I bring in research. It's because of my own personal experience and my connection and what I'm looking to accomplish with the audience or what journey I'm trying to take people on when I'm not at my best, I tend to stick to, Okay, well, what's the curriculum, what am I need to teach, what
research supports this, where's the evidence, where's the proof? I think that when the connection is where it needs to be, I bring all of myself into everything I say, regardless of the context, regardless of whether it's empirical or anecdotal. I am right there in the middle of everything that I communicate.
Do you have a gain in that space where you know, for one of a less wanky term, you feel like you're in flow and just time time just kind of becomes a different thing.
It's so funny because the answer to that used to be, at a minimum fifty percent of the time, I would say most of the things that I did work related put me in a state of flap, like where I would put my head down and I would be writing, and I picked my head up, I'm like, God, it's dark out and I started in the middle of the afternoon, like I've literally been here for hours. It feels like
it's been fifteen minutes. On stage definitely, where I disappear and I come to at the end of the presentation, exhausted and feeling like, oh wow, that was that was amazing, but having no experience of it being amazing while I'm doing it. Lately, those flow experiences have been well, just decreasing.
That's saying that people have. You know, I've said it and again apologized for the cheese for the gooda. It doesn't come from me. It comes through me, right, and sometimes not every second time, But there have been times in my life where, especially one time, I just had this kind of I hope it's not at once in a lifetime experience, but it was fucking amazing. It was I don't know what it was, just it was spiritual. It was like when I was at Tiff, you were there.
I think at Deacon maybe you were there, and there was seven hundred odd people and three hours went like thirty minutes, and I looked up at one stage and there were four hundred of the seven hundred people balling, and one minute later laughing, and that time flew and I had people lined up for an hour and yes, all that feels good for your ego, but some thing happened that was way more powerful than me, and I'm like, fucking hell, I don't even know how to do that again.
And then when everyone went and it was a long time, so maybe we finished at five, and every probably six point thirty everyone had gone. Melissa and I were just I think, picking up like fucking cans from around the auditorium or whatever, and that we got the first moment together where we could just chat without people around. And she goes to me, what on earth was that? And I go, I don't know. She goes, she calls me Bro. She goes, Bro, there's like that was She goes, I
can't even explain that. I go, I can't explain that. That wasn't the skill, that wasn't talent, that wasn't Craig's brain, that wasn't Craig the storyteller. And I know some people are going to go, you're a fucking idiot, and I understand you thinking that, but I'm telling you there was something going on that was way bigger than me on
that day. I fucking so I would do one of those every day for zero dollars for the rest of my life, to be able to get in that space and do that thing with people, and have that level of connection with a room full of humans where it seems like all the individuality and all the separation and all the apartners melts away. It's like there's just this one breathing soul in the room. Oh fuck, I'm so good,
so good. Wow. Have you had that TIF or something like that where you get to that point where you're like you kind of lose yourself a bit?
Yeah, I even to some degree in podcast conversations, I feel that can happen where you just kick off and end up in some unexpected place, or take have people arriving at a space where you're sharing something so deep and introspective and vulnerable, and there's just an energy.
To it, isn't it? And isn't isn't that Like we shouldn't say this because this is podcast secrets everyone, but some guests it's like, oh fucking hell, I want to punch myself in the face. This is just this forty five minutes feels like two painful hours. Right, you both had Bobby's got his shut up, Bobby's got his own show, so he's But then there are other people where you fall into this vortex and you don't want it to stop.
And I'm like, this is this hour and a half and it's normally forty five and I look up it's an hour and a half. I'm like, it's not enough time, And you know, yeah, that is. It is so funny. Obviously time is a constant, but the way that we experience time is a variable. And it's it's so incredible how much that experience can vary.
Yeah, I think when we surrender to it, like the thinking part of present and speaking and planning like is so not me. And I've had people give feedback on a particular episode that they have really loved and connected with, and the feedback they give me is around that intuitive nature of the way I will listen and ask a question particular questions and the space I create and I listen to that feedback and I value it so much,
but I don't know. I'm like, okay, so that happens sometimes, I don't know how many of the times, and it's really special. But I don't know how to create it or recreate it or teach it. I just have to show up and trust it. And it's it's beautiful, but also I guess a bit frustrating because you can't go, well, if I do this, this and this, I'll always be like that or I can teach people how to be like this.
Wow, So you don't know how you do it?
No, No, because I don't think of questions. I don't.
It's a two piece puzzle, right, you can't. You know, we had a very famous person on this show. I'll tell you both who later. Tif you might know off the top of you had very famous wrote one of the most famous books of the nineteen eighties and nineties. He wrote a couple of versions, super Famous. You would all know his name, Farck and terrible Fark. Want to punch myself in the face. Couldn't couldn't publish it. It was so bad, and it was like, God, bless him.
That sounds I'm not trying to be mean, but it was just it was just a clunky, uncomfortable, awkward conversation and you're like, oh, we And I was so excited because I'm like, well, this is this person's got a profile. This we're going to get this is good. But yeah, that's yeah. I think sometimes Bobby, there's just like there's you and another person or person's in that moment. There's a just a chemistry and maybe you can't plan it or orchestrate it.
And I think that there's so many variables to that to even try to unpack what creates that chemistry, that resonance between two people. I mean, we could, but when you're on stage and there is there is a resonance there with people, there is there is something being communicated in a different way, but the communication is present. If somebody asked you, like, how do you get into that space, that transcendent moment where Melissa was giving you that feedback like what happened?
Yes, what would be your answer? I wish I had a three step kind of I don't really, but I do know that, like for me, there's a fine line between how much I plan and how much I don't plan. If I overplan, I'm generally not good. I've got stories about where I planned like a motherfucker and I was horrible, horrible. I wouldn't have had me on my own podcast, that's how bad I was, right, and then other times where I didn't give it enough thought and I was also horrible.
So I think it's funny because the day that this sounds weird, I don't even want to say this, but I'm going to be transparent. The day that that thing happened, I remember that one day I sat in my little car at Deacon and I prayed before I went in. And it wasn't a you know, dear Lord God. You know. It was just like, like, I don't want this to be about me. I want it to be only about them, you know, not my ego, not my brand, not my this,
not my that, like I just wanted. I I feel like my intention makes a difference and my presence going in and if I'm all about telling dick jokes and being hilarious and just you know, using my skills and my risma and my experience and my personality, I tend
to be worse. I tend to be worse. It's not to say that you shouldn't use those things, but you know, I think there's something much more powerful than all of those things I just spoke of, and it's trying to get into that space or that level of operation.
There's got to be something to that, because I feel when I and my audiences were getting the most out of me in my career, I would frequently pray before every session, yeah, the same thing, like get me out of this, please, like remove me and my ego from this presentation. So I don't go in there as if there's a skill that I've developed that is the most important influential factor in what people get from this.
Yeah, I think you can even do the same thing when you're just going into a meeting. I've done it when I'm going to meet somebody one on one and I get a heads up that this could be difficult and complicated and not an easy hour, where I kind of, you know, I just want to make sure that whatever energy that I bring into that moment, that it is
the best energy for them and for the situation. And yeah, if I just have that little moment for me, it's about one minute, if that thirty seconds, one minute where I just take a breath like I just did, and just get out of my own bullshit and realize that I'm not great. I'm just lucky. Like there's nothing about me that's great. And people go, don't say that. I'm like,
there isn't there really isn't. You know. I can try hard and work hard and doesn't mean I'm a bad human, but you know, I am just super duper fortunate that I was born in a great country, a great time. I had great friends, I lived in a great environment, some of the things that I've done over the time have worked out well, some not. But you know, it's like I've literally for sixty years had almost fucking no adversity compared to what a lot of people have.
So I feel like if you don't have that balance perspective, Like earlier, I was being a little bit facetious around the Thanksgiving holiday here, and it's not a lot of people hear me say that and like, oh, that's so negative, Like you cannot say anything negative about you or a holiday or port your heritage. And I think as a culture and as individuals, taking a sobering, honest look at yourself, yeah,
it is in no way degrading to yourself. I think it's a necessary aspect of self care, like looking at what are the things that I do well, what are the times where my efforts, my decisions, intentions facilitated something pretty good?
And when have.
There been times when it's been the opposite? Because you can learn from both. And then to go back to your statement, acknowledging hey, I am lucky does not mean that what you're doing is insignificant. It's no, there have been a series of circumstances that given everything else being equal with all my work, ethic, talent and skills and mindset.
I want to I still want to.
Have gotten to do what I'm doing right now. It wouldn't have matters. It doesn't take anything away from us to give credit to others and to give credit to circumstances and to and a little bit of self criticism.
Yeah, but I see, Yeah, I totally concur your honor for me is about just on a self awareness. It's not self loathing at all. It's just acknowledging what is Like. I've had conversations Tiff and I had a moment I don't know a long time, well, eight months, I don't fuck, I don't know where we There was about a month where we just didn't get on, right, I mean we
it was it was just weird. And then I kind of I was a little bit like, fuck Tiff, fucking Tiff, fucking Tiff is fucking so problematic, right, and then she was probably going harps as a cunt, which is not that far from the truth. So all right, so she's pretty insightful.
It's like, stop sending me these texts.
Jeez. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just before I'm about to not off to bed ever count anyway, you men, anyway for our one remoting listener, You're welcome. Don't play this to my mum. But like, there was stuff that I needed to just go, ah, so here's what I'm doing wrong. Not like oh yeah, but you didn't mean it, but you know it's like, well maybe maybe not, Like you know, there are just things that I do that don't work. There are you know, there are times when something is
problematic and most of the problem is me. There are times when most of the problem isn't me, But there are friendly times, definitely times when it's me. And that's not throwing yourself under a bus or beating yourself up. I think that's just fucking great self awareness. And it's like, well, I need to acknowledge the things that I'm doing badly or poorly so that I can do them better. That doesn't mean I hate me, that doesn't mean I'm a bad human. That means I actually do want to get better.
And I can't get better at the things that I won't acknowledge. I'm shit at right. And it's like my old trope that I wheel out, which is everyone wants feedback until you give them feedback, They don't want right because they don't really want feedback unless it's praise. You know, it's a round of applause.
Or a pat on the back, and everything that's not consensus and praise is not gaslighting any any type of critical feedback is. I mean it could be that very well could be what's happening, but not always. And if everybody around you is gaslighting you constantly, it's not that you're in a manipulative environment. It's maybe that you know you're not willing to face certain aspects of your person because things could never be everybody else all the time.
Yeah, that's just like yeah, and they will probably never be you all the time. I like this kind of kind of thinking, an awareness. And again I've spoken about this twenty times, apologies, but it's worth including because it's relevant. But you know, as a young gym instructor and then as a young personal trainer. So I'm on the floor with people and I'm seeing most of my clients three times a week, so you are literally and you've both
done this because we have very similar backstories. But where you see old mate three days a week, so three days a week for one for an hour, one on one you and her or you and he are chatting like that's more than I speak to my mum. That's more than I speak to me. You know. It's like, this is where you're having these and sometimes like I had one lady Pauline that I trained for sixteen years six hours a week, so it's six hours a week of one on one conversation interaction on and knew her
incredibly well. Right. But my long winded point is when invariably, when I would talk to people about problems that they were having in their life, they never saw themselves as the problem. They always saw themselves as the victim and someone or something else as the cause. Now, sometimes that's going to be true, but it can't be fucking true
all the time. And when I would even dare to suggest that there seems to be a lot of these problems on planet you with a lot of different people, and you seem to be the constant, it's like, yeah, that would not go down well at all. Or you know, the amount of times where people would talk about their partner to me and it would invariably be more negative than positive, where they would be commenting on their relationship and him or her and they wouldn't be saying positive things,
and people go, oh, that's it's fucking true. In fact, I would say in my case it was eighty to ninety percent unless they're just talking about incidental we went to a barbecue on the weekend. But if they were actually talking about their partner and about their relationship, it was always or it was most of the time more negative than positive. And I just think that just doesn't
work in any context for any person. You know, So I don't know, Tiff, it's your turn say something brilliant, amazing, no pressure.
I think. I think it's interesting in friendships and relationships how we like like reflecting on you and I and how we avoid this is typical like I've been on in the University of This the last few years of trying to be better at being open and honest in friendships and relationships and say how I feel and say
and have conversations. But that idea of rupture and repair, and I think put that into context of the amount of relationships like the ones you're talking about, where people have their person and they've fallen in love and they have them in their life for a whole lot of time, and then there's these friction points, and rather than resolving them with the person, there's something that makes us avoid, Like I would make assumptions, and you would make assumptions
about and we have this story about Tips doing this, Harps is doing that, and this is and I make a decision about why you're doing that because I've got all these bullshit triggers and insecurities, so I can a narrative to that, and then it's easier to walk away and prove myself right that everyone's just an asshole at some point. No one's ever going to hang around forever. Yet you have a conversation with me. I hear you, You hear me. We have a think about it, and
the friendship has never been stronger. And like want a lesson, But why do you think, in general, so many humans this is why we have counselism and couple's COUNSELORSM why can't we just do that? What stops us?
I think, Well, Bobby, well, I think fear and EO and insecurity and we you know it is hard too, It is hard to go, hey, we had this thing
and I was mostly the problem. So I'm sorry, you know, and it's like I'm better and better at that over the years, because I've had to do it a lot, you know, where I you know, it's like I know, well ergo in my PhD. It's like it's really been a valuable journey for me to try to understand and what the fuck it is like being around me for other humans, and for some humans being around me is fun and nice and enjoyable and positive, but not for everyone.
And I can't just go, oh, they're all pricks. Well, no, it's probably in my interest to try to understand, you know. And that doesn't mean it's always I'm always going to be problematic. But you know, it's like that old chestnut of Craig, you're intimidating, And I'm like, I'm not intimidating. Who fucking said that, you know? And then oh, yeah,
that's right, I am intimidating. You know. It's like trying to understand and realize that whatever people's experience of you is, then that is for them, one hundred percent their experience. It doesn't matter that your intention is good because their experience is not your intention. Now that doesn't mean you have yeah, or their experience is not your intention, and that doesn't mean that you've got to agree with them,
but you need to understand them, you know. And even down to when I talked to my mom last night at her birthday. I was trying to talk about a few medical things about Dad with her, and I'm like thinking, Fuck, how do I say this in a way that won't terrify her but also will absolutely make sense and also weave in a little bit of hope, you know. And so all of this is going through my mind as I'm just trying to download information. You know, how do I make this mary friendly? How do I make this
not terrifying? How do I make it accurate? So I'm not just saying bullshit? But and you know, also in the moment, what is this like what I'm saying to my mum? What is this like for her right now? You know?
So I think it takes so long to know ourselves as well as we have this emotional reaction, and then we before we have a chance to really explore it, we make a decision on the most logical reason that comforts us as to why it takes place. Oh, I feel this. It's obviously because they're an asshole. They deliberately did that, But we don't explore what about that thing that just happened just made an emotion come up in me?
What's the real story about that, what action occurred? And then what in the experience represented that in the moment that just happened, because that's what it was. The case has been the case for me over the years, is going, oh, when people turn up five minutes late, I turn in, I have a huge emotional reaction. What's that all about? Because now I just because it turns me into someone
that thinks that nobody cares. And that's because this emotional switch that flips and there's its story, and it's like, well, none of that story is true. But obviously somewhere along the way you have this not matter hurt button, according to doctor Bill just saying that's one of yeah, and that's one of the ones that flips it.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know about you, Bobby, but I always thought I was What pushes my buttons over the years is when people thought I was stupid or not very intelligent or you know whatever. Because I thought I was stupid and I thought I was unintelligent, and so I would, yeah, I would be very different because it's like they would just tell it was really just consolidating and confirming, Yeah, you're right, I am fucking stupid, and yeah I would respond to that way more than you
know what they said about my body. Like I was pretty obsessed with my body and my appearance because I was wildly fucking insecure, had all the issues, but I was also insecure about you know, like I people for
years make fun of where I grew up. Shout out to Moey, love mey, you know, and and even now you know, not so much, but like do you own anything other than a flannel shirt or a black T shirt or and so that thing of I mean, it's really interesting because on one hand, I have people who have me on a pedestal, which maybe they shouldn't, I don't know. But at the same time, other people who think I'm just a lucky, fucking idiot who's done. Okay, you know what about you, Bobby?
You know, earlier you said that these patterns have a lot to do with fear, ego and insecurity, and of course, but I think we're getting into it now a little bit where many people, not everybody, but many people are scared shitless and they don't have anything figured out. I think Where we get our security from is our mental models and these belief systems, and if something can't tr one of those belief systems, it adds to the anxiety
of enormous uncertainty. I think that becomes the problem where I am I'm unwilling to examine certain things about myself because the answer can be terrified. Now you just talking about, like why does she get upset when people arrive five minutes late? And punctuality is a very important thing for me. Yes, I've been telling that. I've been reading about the story of ebenez a Scrooge. It's a classic. I've been telling that story lately, or attempting to because it's that season.
And when you look at that story, you see a lot of you see a lot of these deeper layers where the Scrooge were introduced to in the beginning of the story. Is not the authentic Scrooge. I mean, we're kind of starting in the middle of the story there, and then, of course, with the ghost of Christmas Past, we go back to the beginning. Scrooge seemed like he was a very sensitive, caring kid who had crippling abandonment issues because his father was horribly neglectful and cruel, punitive, you know.
Not a nice guy at all.
And every Christmas at boarding school, he had this crippling level of loneliness because all the kids, all of them went back home to be with their families. His dad didn't even think enough of them to spend Christmas with them, which made Christmas particularly painful. And this guy grows. I mean, like, wow, how petty and greedy is this individual. It's like, no, he's terrified. He has this avoidant attachment style that emerged out of a fear of abandonment. And people are they
can't be counted on, but numbers can, money can. Yeah, that's quite consistent. And so he develops this personality not out of evil, but out of loneliness. And then he has to defend that. He has to justify why his worldview is correct, why he's uncaring, why he is the way he is. And then you see at the end where it's the readiness to change that takes so long. Change itself is kind of rapid, and you see that
with Scrooge. He starts, Yeah, he starts changing his behaviors, and all of a sudden he has all of the things that he's been deprived of all the things that he's probably wanted and the answer wasn't in his story, But we hang on to those stories.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you think also that people like talking about beliefs and stories that we all have beliefs and stories that we didn't choose. They're just to buy productive life and experiences and interaction and programming and conditioning and blah blah blah fill in the blank. Do you think that those things, to an extent, those stories and those beliefs and that programming becomes our identity. So that's who we are, that's who we are.
And justify that story, don't you.
And then when you question my story, you question who I am because my story and my belief is essentially intertwined with my sense of self. So when you attack me for being a vegan or a Christian or a Arsenal United supporter or whatever, you know, then you're attacking
my sense of self. And so, you know, it's very hard when you've had beliefs for a lifetime or most of a lifetime, to even consider the fact that maybe that's a flawed belief, or maybe that story is not true, maybe that story is a limitation that's holding me back. Maybe it's kind of true, but not completely. I think that's the you know, the million dollar question is, you know, can are you objective? Are you open minded? And everybody says yes, I am, but the truth is nobody is.
So I think that's a deeper layer.
True.
You have this need for certainty and these narratives, these mental models are where you believe you drive the certainty from, or maybe you're not even aware of it, so then you have it's so precarious to challenge these belief systems you have, and then you go deeper and it's like no, no, no, no, these aren't even your beliefs. These are beliefs that have been given to you. So I'm defending beliefs now that are not even my own. That's an interesting dynamic.
Yeah, well they almost well they kind of yeah, I know exactly what you're saying, so they'd become you know, it's like you put on someone else's jumper and now you're like, no, this is my jumper. It's like you put on your cousin's jumper or whatever it is. I was going to say Cardigan who wears cardigans, But yeah, it's almost like they get socially by social obs osmosis. These become your beliefs. Now you're thinking, now your story is now just because of proximity to that.
For so long, I'd be nothing without this, Jumper, It's not even yours. You're so mostly attached to it, Jumper, I don't even know who I am.
Always good to talk, Sunshine. Bobby's podcast is called The Self Help Antidote. You can find him also at Robert Caapuccio dot com. Am I correct with that this is true? And you can find him on LinkedIn and you can find him on most street corners on a Saturday night near his house in some kind of frock usually, and also on Instagram street corners, Oh please, just some street corners. Tiffany and Cook has also a podcast called Roll with
the Punches. She can also be found on Instagram Tiffany and Co. She can be found also at her house just with her pets, or the cookie shop or the cookie Shop? Did I miss out anything you too? Is there anything you want to throw in?
Had a major falling out over chocolate quantity once?
Well, thanks for throwing that in at the end. Did you resolve it?
While yeah, I think we're getting on really well. I'm not she probably still hates me.
I don't even want to ask. Bobby. We'll say goodbye, Affair, and I'll tell you who that guest was right now, Tiff, thank you, Bobby, thank you,