I get a term. It's us. Of course, it is Tiffany and Cook, Patrick, James Bonello and me Jumbo Fatty Harps just here every Friday morning. It's eight oh one at this point in time. Let's go out to the middle of nowhere and saylo to Patrick, Hi, mate, how are you?
I could like to say that it's not the middle of nowhere.
It's the center of the universe, all right, the center of the universe aka the middle of nowhere. How is baland the thriving metropolis? How are you both out there, the two of you that live there? Well, Fritz, how is the other person that lives there? How are they going?
Fritz is licking himself, So he's being very productive.
Oh, I'm so jealous. He would never leave the house. Was you imagine that? Imagine? No, that's already I reckon. If anyone on this call is flexible enough for that, it's not me or tiff So I think I think it might be the fucking yoga teacher or whatever it is that you take Chi always my reason for doing it. We thought you had hip displasure. No, you're just trying to give yourself a head job.
But there we want people to kind of infer that, and I don't have to.
Come out and say it like, you know, ah, sorry, let's start again, all right, hey everybody.
This is going to be one of those shows. How many times you reckon? We can start it again?
TIF? How many times I reckon? I think five? We've done it?
Five is our record where we did anyway, I'm well, thank you. It's bloody freezing this morning, though I've got the got the heater going. But yee, I'll tell you what. The walkout to the studio is bloody cold.
Do you have a heater in the studio or is that inconsistent with cognitive functions so you like to keep it cold? No?
No, no, no, that the heater is definitely definitely going. I might say that I've I've been awake for ages, like literally for hours, and.
I'm this is what I sleep in. I mean, my brother's disgusting. You smell. Have you not had a shower? Oh god, I haven't.
I haven't exercised yet. So I'm going to take the Schnauser out for a walk after this.
Schnauser is such a bad name for any breed of anything. Schnauzer. You can you get that little motherfucker right there. Look at him. Look, he's so busy licking himself. What is he doing? And room mate, don't do that. Fritz, Fritz, get get out of the shot. Fritz.
Hear you, he's not wearing headphones like a.
Fucking canine porno. Get rid of him. What is he doing? She's got no pride. Get on the floor and do that. He's embarrassed him.
He's got off the chair, he's walked away, and now now he's given me the snaus a look, he's just looking at me.
What the three feet Schnauzer death stare.
It's scary when he gives you the look because he's got those the eyebrows are like an awning over the top of his head and he just peers through them. So it's kind of is he looking at me? Or isn't he looking at me? And it's a bit unnerving.
You've seen. Why don't you give that little hair arounda a little bit of a trim.
Look, I know he's back up again. There, Oh God, here we go.
Now he's sniffing you. God, I don't let him lick you because it's just been on his cock. That tue. Get him stop it the worst. I just tapping Patrick on the arm, like, come on, bro, give him some love. Give him like look at.
Oh my god, I love him.
Oh now he's like, don't make fun of me that. Oh why are you not giving him some love? Oh my god?
The worst start of a show ever, Tiff, how are you? I'm fabulous.
I just went and did a little boxing. I haven't put the block gloves on and boxed most of this year, and I just did a little boxing session this morning.
I'm feeling good. Did you hit the bag, did you hit the speedball, the floor to ceiling? Or did you hit Brian in the ring? When I say not Brian in the ring, I mean Brian, it's not Brian's ring, but Brian who happened to be in the ring unless he was doing a downward dog at the time, and then you hit him in the ring. But so, what was the format of the boxing is what I'm trying to ask. I did a little bag work.
I did a little Florida ceiling. I did a little bit of that wall bag. It was it was great.
How I feel like I shoulders feel strong?
I do feel like I look like a little mac truck.
Staffy or something. Now that I'm like, I didn't look like this last time I put the gloves on.
He's been taking volumes of steroids and lifting heavy things.
Have not been taking volumes of still, but I've been.
But you look like it. Well that that you are a fucking anomaly, because.
I'm not taking that off, because that was very timed. I didn't take my jacket off for that reason.
Yeah sure, Patrick, and I just going to get a coat. Will be back in a moment. I'm covering up to me too.
I'm glad I have a shaven.
All of the typ listeners know exactly what we're all laughing at without us even saying anything.
I don't know. It seems like this is getting looser every episode. I feel like somebody out of the rig. It's going to get Lisa. I think I think somebody responsible needs try and get it back on track. If only they will have one here. One day you'll have an adult.
In the show, and then it will all be put back on track.
I don't think an adult would want to be involved in that. Got a chance, Patrick, Let's start with the important stuff. I've got a list. If you've never heard this before, well, if you've never heard this show before or this installment of the show before, you've probably already left. But if you happen to be still here, One, what the fuck is wrong with what are you doing? Yeah? Yeah, you get a life. But two, this is the show
where Patrick allegedly comes and talks to us about. Well, it used to be originally just tech, but we've kind of diversified and there's a little bit of psychology and human behavior and it's a bit of a pot pirie of conversation to be honest, But I think we should start with the most interesting topic on your list. Today, scientists reveal a clever trick that can help me win rock paper So yeah.
This is really interesting. So you know when you play rock paper scissors?
Right, what I just asked, Tiff, do you know what that is?
Oh?
Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, go.
I find it interesting what science has studied. Let's just go back one step, because they're studying rock paper scissors. But kind of cool. I think that's great. It's you know, obviously we're not the only ones who never evolved into adulthood. I think that's cool anyway.
Also, I just want to ask, as a side note, who the fuck is funding this research?
Yeah, I don't know, like play school, some Landling company, the Wiggles.
Anyway, go on.
It actually has broader implications in terms of how we make decisions and whether when we make a decision competitively or whether we do it in conjunction with someone as a team effort. But what it was looking at was how do you win at Rock paper scissors? And most people make the decision of what they're going to play next based on.
The previous round.
So when I'm doing rock paper fitters with you and you have rock or paper or scissors or whatever it happens to be, I'm influenced by what your previous action was. And the scientists came up with the notion that, in fact, that's the wrong thing to do. You've got to not be influenced by the previous action the person did, and you will have more chance of winning if you come up with a new move each time. So this is
basically what came out of this. But what they're saying from this is that the field it's basically social neuroscience, and what they're looking into is how the brains of individuals gain an insight into another person. And the decision making process, and if we interact with people what that then means. It's called hyper scanning, and it's a method of working. As you probably know more about this than we do.
Crago. Well, now it's very interesting. It's like anticipation and trying to antidi based on previous data or previous behavior, what somebody's going to do next. Like they say, in general terms human behavior, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. But when you're doing something, which is where you're trying, like obviously in a game like this,
you're trying to manipulate or deceive somebody. That's the point of the game because you're trying to win, so you don't want them to know what you're going to do. But yeah, it's definitely it is definitely interesting. But that trying, Like it's easy to say, make it random every time and don't repeat what you did last time. But if you never repeat what you did last time, well that's
a pattern as well, and that makes you predictable. Like if you ever do paper twice in a row, I know, well Patrick never does the same thing twice in a row, and there are only three things, only three options. Last time he did paper, so this time it's definitely got to be scissors or rocks. I feel like I'm sounding like a really boring scientist now, but yeah, it is that whole kind of that ability to be anticipated, to be able to anticipate what somebody is going to do
in terms of a decision and a behavior. It's it. The benefits are far reaching beyond this particular game. But I understand why they did this research because it can be extrapolated to a lot of other things.
And the other thing it just occurred to me while you were talking, because I was listening intently to what you were saying, was did you ever play did you ever play the rule with dynamite? So rock papers is a dynamite?
I did not. Oh see that was another.
One as well, rock papers and dynamite, So that that's another variable as well. So it actually increases it exponentially, doesn't it by having another fear anyway, that's I just thought i'd mentioned that for those people who've played rock papers as dynamite.
This kind of reminds me of in terms of like repeating certain things and like that are unproductive and sociologically ridiculous. The habit that we humans have of essentially having the same conversation with the same person about the same issue and getting the same negative result. Yet we do it again and again and again, you know, rather than going okay. So we've had a version of this conversation a hundred
times and it never turns out well. Either I need to stop having it, or have a different version, or try a different approach in a different context, or like we are very slow learners when it comes to social interactions. All right, let's move on then, So tell me why life expectancy gains have slowed down sharply, Patrick, I feel like they're almost on the way to going backwards. Yeah, it feels like it as well.
And this is and I guess it might be how we're living at the moment, or the fact that it plateaued and now it's kind of dipping on the other side. So some recent research has been looking into you know, at the end of the nineteen thirty so nineteen thirty nine, anybody born after anineteen thirty nine had a greater chance of increasing their longevity their life every year after that.
So basically, if you lived in nineteen thirty nine, your life expectancy was like sixty something years, but then every year after that it started to increase and increase and increase. So medical breakthroughs helped a lot of that, but longevity
growth now has lost its momentum. So historically it would increase, but it seems now that no generations that are born after nineteen thirty nine, So you know, right now we're seeing people live to that age and those people would have been born in nineteen so as we head towards that time, but the reality is now they're saying that less people are going to be and in fact, it's going to get to a point where anybody born after nineteen eighty will not live to one hundred.
Wow. Yeah, wow, don't surprise me. It doesn't surprise me. Like there's this almost this contradiction where we've got. It seems like some of us have got worse and worse habits and behaviors, but at the same time, we've got all this groundbreaking medicine and medical resources to help us live longer and stronger. But yeah, I wonder, I wonder with all the toxins in the soil and the air and all of the things, and the plastics and the phyto estrogens, and all the shit that we need to
deal with now. I wonder if we're about to hit that kind of platau or maybe go backwards.
Well, this study has been done by the University of Wisconsin, Madison, and I guess when you think about also record keeping and how accurate it is, and the fact that we now have really good data we can track population growth and we're not we're talking Western nations too. This is specifically research that's you know, on longevity. Data is based around the western Western nations, so we're not sure about other countries.
But it's interesting. Oh sorry, dude, I was just going to say it's interesting you brought up nine and thirty nine as that date because both of my parents were born in nineteen thirty nine and they're both eighty six, so they've done pretty well. Yep.
Yeah, Well, my day just turned ninety a few weeks ago, and obviously he was born before then, so that'd be mak him thirty five?
Was it? No? Thirty five? Well that I know this is digressing, But how's dad's health.
Look, he's in aged care. He's always ridiculously active. But the two things I think worked in his favor have worked in his favor is he didn't never smoked, and he very occasionally had a drink, you know, have a beer in summer, and that was all. But was always always active, always walked, you know, was physically in the garden every day, that sort of stuff. But he's done
pretty well, you know, I think for most. My theory on this, and we've spoken about this many many times, I don't know that I want to live to one hundred.
I just want to live to an old age in good health.
So keep keeping running on all cylinders for as long as possible, I reckon.
Yeah, we call that health span. So that's living long as long as you can, but as well as you can. For the vast majority, I've noticed.
One smart watch is now telling me what my health age is. And it's kind of disconcerting. And so, hey, you've been really active and you're doing all the right things. You're actually you know, in your late forties, not your late fifties, like you sucking up to me.
Or what you realize that you keep looking at your wrist and you're not actually wearing a watch.
No, yeah, I left my health watch off because I think it's lying to me.
I feel it's trying to create rapport and build connection and trust. Now, there is some research that's come out which is very significant to me and quite disconcerting, because being too attractive can hurt fitness, influences, new res such Hell, that's going to be a setback for me. It's you laughing? Are you laughing? Sucking hell?
Knowing? By this study, out of the three people in this conversation, Tiff is the least likely to believe be believed then you or I. It's called influences.
Okay, yeah, so tell me what's going on with this.
Well, you know that the adage that sex cells actually isn't working. So researchers looked into consumer behavior and there seems like when people are pushing this is in the health field. Only they did prospers to different disciplines and they found this was most strongly in the influencer area for health. And what they found was if someone is too good looking and too attractive, they're less.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so we're much more authentic.
Now I get that, because what it is when you're trying to talk about a health message, you want to engage with your audience. But if you're way too good looking, people can't relate to you because you alienate them because there's not that connectedness. And you know, I guess when we're talking about health, it's a pretty personal thing. But I thought that was kind of interesting and maybe that's why you've succeeded as in the health.
Is that right? Low it are you saying because I'm ugly as why I've done well?
But I don't know, because you're authentic, and you're authentic in your presence.
But what authentic's got nothing to do with looks? And this is all about looks, this particular story. And you were saying attractive people, it's a handicap and I've done well because I'm not attractive. Is that what you're saying?
Well, you're not overtly attractive.
I'm not overtly attractive.
Friends like.
You break that down for me a little bit. So I'm not overtly attractive. What am I? Ruggedly handsome? See that's bookshit as well, because now you're lying. Now you're fucking backpeddling. I can hear your gears grinding. It's a good thing. My mum loves me and I don't need your fucking approval. Wow, And I'm not trying to attract you any I'm not trying to attract anyone, let's be honest. But you can go right to the back of the queue back in therapy for harps. You know what happened.
I told you I took a photo with doctor Alex, who's the best looking surgeon in the world, and all everybody did was talk about whether or not one how good looking he is. That was comment one and question one was easy single. I'm like, I am also in the photo, but there was not one comment I am also there. Hey, there are two people, you know.
The other thing that came out of the study was that when people watch these fitness influences or fit influences, it's hard to say with the mathul it's eth fit fluences, but when they watch them talking about or spooking about health, they come away from it with a lower self esteem.
Wow. Yeah, Like, my only question is all of the fitness influences that I know, and there are quite a lot of them that I know personally and also I know through the interwebs, none of them are fucking out of shape and ugly. Let me tell you that. So I don't know about the validity of this. Most of them are pretty jacked and pretty good looking, either pretty or or handsome. But I am interested in this story because I grew up with the Eagles. The Hotel California.
Effect, like, yeah, it's called the Hotel California because you know the lyrics.
Of course, check you.
Can check in any time you like, but you can never leave something along those lines that how correct correct. So the theory behind this is that a stack of Australia. It's a phrase that's been coined by you know, basically people who are looking into consumer insights. So it's a
that's put out by Deloitte. It comes out annually. It's a media Entertainment consumer Insights report, and what they found is more of us are subscribing and the amount that we pay per month for subscriptions has risen by twenty four percent this year. So on average, each household has three point seven subscriptions to the value of about seventy eight bucks, whereas last year it was sixty three dollars,
so there has been an increase. There's a criticism of a lot of the subscription platforms that it's very hard to unsubscribe, and you know what, it's honestly it's like a needy relationship when you kind of try to leave as well, it's really you're really going to go, what about.
If I do this?
What about if I do this and I do this and then I'll do that? And have you tried to unsubscribe recently from some?
Think? It's really hard? And then I have not. I probably should though, because I've got too many Yeah, yeah, how many of you got tip? Like what you're on Netflix? What else are you on?
I'm only on Netflix every now and then I do unsubscribed from that, but I don't know spot I've got heaps Spotify, bluddy, even Zoom. I don't use the Zoom subscription now because I use Riverside, but I've still got it subscribed just in case. Strava don't use that. Use that when I was running. Don't need to be premium heaps hip Patrick.
The next story is a little bit tantric in it feels a bit tantric to me, which is touching without contact. We physically sense objects before feeling them, so.
Research because some animals do this really really well. There are some birds that are able to stand on sand and feel where their prey is under the sand, so they thought this was kind of interesting. Let's do this with human beings and see if humans when they press their hand onto the sand consense just by moving their hands around where the object is and was a high level of accuracy. And what they're finding is that the vibrations, it's kind of it's I'm using it in simple terms.
It's not like sonar. But what it means is that those sensial the sense you get from tactile touch, can actually work through the sand to the object, and we almost have an innate sense to be able to find that object. So you don't see people walking along the beach with their metal detectors. Just lay down on the sand and just press your hands in and you've got more chance to find and stuff.
Well, I think that might be a skill or a sense that might need to be developed. No, but it is accurate.
Though. They say that they were able to track the way people had this tactile sensation and just by feeling the movement of the sand and how the sand then pushed against the object. It's kind of interesting how our
sensors can kind of be extrapolated that way. And the reason they're researching into this is because they are trying to apply this to research into the development of robots that have more tactile senses to be able to sense touch, because that's a problem when you look at wanting to potentially use say robots and healthcare, then the amount of pressure that they apply and their sense of how much
pressure they're applying to say a person's hand. If you think about health care, and in China they're going crazy developing robots because they're worried about I guess the healthcare of an aging population and a very young well not
having enough young people. But if I was to grab your wrist or TIFF's wrist, all of us have a different width in terms of what our wrist is, and that's something that if you've got a pre programmed medical robot that grabs you on the wrist, then because of the diversity, how do they know how much pressure to apply given that we all have a different width of wrist.
So it's really really important for this development of robotics to be able to have quite tactile sensation, and this has been a bit of a challenge that they're working on at the moment. So this sort of research into the tactile nature of sand and feeling things under the sand works the same. We take a lot for granted because of all the nerve endings we have in our hands, but to apply that mechanically is really challenging.
You know what this makes me think about a little bit, like developing these senses, Like you wonder if, given certain circumstances, how well we could develop these senses that we really are unaware of. Like you know, when somebody loses you know, whether it's site or some other function, it's almost like the other abilities kind of come into play or develop more. I watched this thing on this dude who developed he was blind. He is blind, and he's developed this kind
of echolocation skill. How bats make a noise and depending on how far away they are from an object, how quickly that noise returns to them, Like how quickly they hear it back is it's called echolocation kind of gives them a sense of where they are in space and time and how close they are to things. And so this dude develop this where he makes this noise, this kind of clicking noise, and he can walk around and he knows the proximity of physical objects that he can't see.
But he can sense with this skill that he developed. It's fucking amazing what we can do when there are certain things we now can't do. Now we have to, I guess, lean into this other potential, whatever gift or sense, and then develop that over time. We talked about.
Brain plasticity, and I think that potentially on the show we may have but I might quickly repeat it. I love to juggle, and this is something that I've always enjoyed doing. Just a three ball cascade they call it. And our German researchers took three groups of people and took them how to juggle, and then after a month they got one group. What they found, by the way, with their research was that there's a part of the
brain that only activates when people are juggling. They don't know why, but it only starts to show the synapses and movement in the brain that part of the brain when someone learns how to juggle, and if they're juggling consistency.
But after a month they broke the group into three and one group kept juggling five minutes a day, one group stopped juggling completely, and then the other group visualized juggling and the group visualized and the group that were consistently juggling, that active part of the brain stayed active. Blue stopped juggling, that part of the brain that was firing stopped firing, and then eventually they also know that people who juggle on a regular base, that's always active.
In their brain. So they don't know what it is. They know that the.
Brain is active and it's able to develop the sense to do that. So just learning how to juggle is a way for your brain to suddenly use a region that it doesn't use. It's amazing. Was it sixteen percent of our brain that we use crago?
I don't know. They really don't know because there's no absolute number, but it's not in terms of our potential, I think it's very low. I think it's around that Patrick. But also, you know what else. I saw this thing the other day which was I thought it said it was a study, and then I went down the rabbit hole.
It wasn't a study. It was bullshit. But the idea is very fucking clever, and that I forget which it was like maybe Denmark or somewhere where allegedly what they do is one hour a day in this school, this particular school, which turned out to be bullshit, But it's
a great idea. I think it would work. They get children to use their non dominant hand writing, so every day they would you know, So for me, I'm a left hand and it mean that you would do an hour of work with your non dominant hand, and that does amazing shit in your brain. And that's one of the things I encourage older people to do is do things that you don't normally do, because now your brain has got to adapt to that new thing. And even if it's like writing with your non dominant hand, or
using your non dominant hand to use your phone. Like I'm left handed, so as I said, so when I use my phone, it's always with my left hand. If I try and do that with my right hand, it is so clumsy and awkward. But I think, I think these little ideas of coming up with little activities or tricks or hacks to engage our brain in a different way is a great idea.
One of the things I always talk to my Taichi students about, given.
That a lot of them are older. My older student at the moment is eighty six.
Fantastics shit tends class regularly, but one of the things I say to them is every day, when you're brushing your teeth, stand one leg, yeah, motion of the hand moving plus being on one leg and then halfway through swop to the other leg. And they all do it. It's great because you can work on balance. You can improve your balance. We know that a fall can be
so detrimental, and when you're older. The average statistics are that if someone over the age of I think it's sixty, but it might be seventy, so don't count, you know, don't quote me on this, but the longevity is like a year after a major fall.
Is how long their life expectancy is.
And that's a tragedy that we know we can do something about just by helping with our balance and coordination and something as simple as standing on one leg while you're brushing your teeth. That's not much to ask. You got to do it, so might as well just you know, jump from one leg to the other. When you do there, you go my tip.
To the day, definitely, And with that you need some strength, so lift a few weights too, because you need some muscle and strength through the hips and bum and legs and all of that. But Patrick's exactly right. I love this. The robotic kitchen that cooks and serves one hundred and so an AI driven kitchen that cooks and serves one hundred and twenty meals an hour. That's a meal every thirty seconds with no help from humans. Yeah.
Dusseldorf in Germany. It's the supermarket there, Riwe. I'm not sure how they pronounce it, but they've Yeah, this Munich based robotics company called circus se they've launched their very first it's the CAA one Series four system and they just basically put the whole thing in. It's called Fresh and Smart concept, and they basically put an entire robotic kitchen.
It's enclosed in glass and it does everything from the full process of meal prep, collecting the ingredients, cooking, plating, cleaning, the whole lot. And so we're not talking about just a vending machine that's serving out food. We're looking at something where the food is being prepped from its very inception all the way through to a finished meal. And that's kind of cool, isn't it. I want to get one in my kitchen at home.
Yeah. I wonder, I mean, I wonder what the consequences of that movie that. I wonder if that's just going to be limited to situations like that. Surely that's not going to be commonplace in restaurants on Hampton Street. Surely there's we're still going to have chefs and bloody waiters and waitresses. And surely I don't want to go and give my fucking order to R two D two fucking C three po comes out with my fucking chicken casserole. I would love that.
I would love to give R to dtwo my order and have come out and serve my meal.
Here's my chicken cashew stir fry. I hope you enjoy it, sir.
Do you remember the time I went to Canberra and I went to a robot cafe.
I desperately wanted to go. I told us yea, and the bloody.
Robots were off on strike or something. They were sitting in a corner and collect dust. And I've driven, I've flown as to camera and then gone all the way over to the other side of the city to go to and I'm so disappointed. It was gut wrenching. But I think there's one in Melbourne now, or a few in Melbourne. But I think like the idea of people getting jobs too.
Yeah, I mean that is that is something that's going to become a bigger and bigger reality that we need to deal with. Is like human jobs that are being lost to AI or robotics or technology or whatever. But I wanted to talk about this. One research paper finds that topper AI systems are developing a survival drive. That's spoken about a bit where there, you know, AI is starting to learn a sense of it's it's or its potential demise, and it wants to save itself. It wants
to protect itself. And there was that story about a year or so ago, remember Patrick, where it was it in Google, where that that computer was trying to deceive the creators of it so it could protect itself.
Yeah, and this is this is a really frightening thought. And it's called a palisade research. This is a research that's been done specifically into what they call survival drives and that frequently, Yeah, the AI models we're basically refusing instructions to shut themselves down, and the researchers themselves just can't explain why it's happening. That's the frightening thing, you know, the AI models they are they self aware. That's a
tough one to even kind of. I mean, there's so much more of a bigger argument when it comes to that. But they were lying, they to achieve a specific objective, and you know, potentially they could be blackmailing you know, can you imagine that the lead scientist says, now, switch yourself off. Well, actually last night you weren't at home, but you weren't also at the office, like you just.
Yeah, exactly right now?
Is that being blackmailed by AI?
So it was study.
It was actually a research that was or an article was in the Guardian newspaper, and they'd done some previous research.
It found that some of the open ai models, and this.
Is chet GPT by the way, circumvented attempts to deactivate it and even when it was told to you know, specifically directed to be shut down, and they it actually went as so far as to try to sabotage the shutdown mechanisms. So that's a degree of frightening self awareness.
I don't know.
And the study was not just open AI's chat CHPT, it was Google's Gemini, it was Grock as well, and so you know, it's they had to use very strong terminology, not anything out ambiguous, and they were really clear about what they were asking it.
To do, and they were resisting it.
That skynet it's here almost that Sorry for the Terminator fans out there.
It's that whole kind of concept of a machine becoming sentient where it now has its own awareness, and it can teach itself things, and it can open doors metaphoric doors by itself and start to solve problems. It hasn't been taught or trained or programmed. And yeah, I wonder if we'll like, it can never have human consciousness because
it's not human. But I wonder if it can have the equivalent machine conscious well consciousness in that it gets scared or it's aware, or it can anticipate things that would seem to be a human kind of trait. I wonder if Well, I don't wonder, I think that's inevitable. I just wonder on the timeline.
It's the disconcerting thing is that we then have a moral dilemma.
If we really believe.
That it's sentient and it has some thought process and a sense of self awareness the Turing test, then what does that mean in terms of it off what are our ethical obligations, you.
Know, in so far as flicking the switch.
You know that that then but then again, is it just that clever of an algorithm that it's deceiving us and it's giving us responses that have been pre programmed into it. You know, it's just got so good. So you know, how do we even articulate that I struggled? You know, we can't even talk about our own consciousness and talk about our sense of self and articulate that, let alone in a machine that's pretending to be sentient.
It. Yeah, this is one of those great moral conundrums where you know, do I sacrifice the one person to save the eighth? The train one where the train tracks and the trains? Do I throw this person under the train to save the eight? So now I'm saving eight people, but I'm killing one, And who are you to decide? Yeah? Fuck all that, let's not open that door. But that's terrifying.
But imagine, Yeah, but that's you know, you think, well, if we pull the plug on you know, this particular computer or this particular AI, and it's sentient, it can feel things, and it has emotions, you go, yeah, well, what are the consequences and ramifications if we don't do that, what are the human what's the human cost? And of course humans are going to be more preoccupied with our
own welfare. But it's opening up a new door. Patrick, tell me about Australian Federal Police and Monass University using poison data to combat AI generative crime. What does that even mean?
Oh, I know, this is a really interesting one because at the moment, one are the issues that we have with a lot of the data scraping. So if you're like, you know, we've got the validation. If we're going to go online and you're signing up for something it might be a bank account or whatever, and ask you to scan your passport. The problem is that all this data is stored somewhere and the worry is that if it gets scraped and hacked, then that information can be used.
But one of the interesting things that they're talking about is potentially making anything that we upload unable to be fully read. You know, when we do a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy and it degrades, well, the using techniques to make the image that you upload of, say your passport, done in such a way that it will poison or mirror reflect back in such a way that it can't be copied and duplicated by the AI
model or criminals in this case as well. So the AFP is just looking at way Federal Police is looking at ways to be able to make the data that we've got not poisonous s. I mean the term they're using is poisonous, but one where it can't be scraped and reused and copied, and it means that it can't
then be reused by another third party. So if you upload your pass then it can't be used by somebody else who then gets a copy of that passport because it will degraded, the second generation will be degraded to a point where it can't be used.
That's over my pay grade. It is a bit like that, isn't it look something else that I did really pay attention to this week because it's something that I've used, which is chat GPT has now been restricted from giving medical, legal, or financial advice. Now. A couple of weeks ago, I was out to dinner with a crab for his sixtieth birthday and his mum had broken barb, the lovely barb. Shout out to Bob, who's never listened to a podcast in her life, but this could be your debut, Bob.
She had a broken wrist and she happened to have in her phone. I don't know why the x rays, And so I got the x rays off her phone, put him in my phone and whacked it in chat GP and said, tell me about this, what's your diagnosis and what do you and it just did this whole incredible medical breakdown and report of what what the X ray was telling us and also potential treatment options and rehabit.
It's fucking amazing, right, And then I sent that to a friend of mine who's a doctor and said this is you know, what do you think of all of this? And he's just like, that's doing me out of a job. Like it was. Now. I'm not saying it's all spot on, I'm not saying everything. I'm not suggesting we do this, and I'm not suggesting we defer to CHAP, GPT or AI instead of a doctor. But my friend who's a doctor said, that's fucking amazing, like that report is like
a high level medical report. But now we can't do that anymore because they're scared about potential legal consequences of giving advice that potentially is totally understandably, but I wonder if there's a way to work around that where you can say I don't want advice, I just want I don't know, because I, for me, I loved that. Yeah, there was.
Some information released by open ai, the company that owns chat chapt and it said that zero point one point five sounds like a small amount of chat GPT's active users. In a given week, we're having conversations that included explicit indicators of potential suicide. Okay, And there are court cases currently underway in the United States with young people who have suicided after long interactions with AIS where the AI seemingly encouraged them.
To go on with that process. And this has been a really big thing here.
But that fifo point one five percent doesn't sound like a lot. But when you think of how many people are using it that you know, are using chatpts. So there's more than eight hundred million weekly active users, so more than a million people are talking to it about suicide and every week week. Yeah, yeah, exactly, And that's that's where it's being raised from. So you know, I agree with you Crago that I'd love to I think
it's great that we can use this tool. You know, we can use this for diagnosis and maybe in conjunction, because you know, you've got effectively thousands and thousands of research papers that went into diagnosing that break and the
outcomes of similar breaks. So when you're compilating all that data, I mean, I think gps are such some of the smartest people because they have no a whole lot about a whole lot of stuff and then be able to apply that to a diagnose a diagnosis when you sit down and find out what the ailment is.
But when you've got an.
AI model that's literally scraped the entirety of all our knowledge almost and then you know, so you can see similar cases other people who have had breaks this way. Physios have reported on what they did to help that person recover. You're now collating that into one model. And that's that's why the chat GPT outcome that you were talking about was so accurate and so amazing, because it's drawing on humans, it's drawing on human research, it's during.
From the intelligence, the years of.
Experience, all that sort of stuff. So when we talk about these AI models, AI is not smart all the bloody people who've put their brain work and years and study and sweat and tears into observing and caring and doing all the things that they've done. That's the outcome we're getting, is the outcome of all these people who've been at the call fake the nurse, the cold face, the nurses, the doctors, the physios, all those people.
Yeah. Yeah, So one of the things we've spoken about over time is trying to distinguish between an AI video and a tiff made video, a real human video and an AI video. But apparently there's one sign that kind of demonstrates whether or not it's AI or real.
Isn't it funny that we have to do this now that everything we see we have to challenge. I find that so frustrating. There's a country and Western song that's just top the charts on Billboard in the United States and totally fakes made up by AI.
The images AI.
It's some dude wearing a cowboy hat with a long jacket on walking off into the sunset, and you look at his feet and he's walking through puddles and the splashes look weird, you know, the images of a glory and it feels to me so sad for all those people who you know, who write music and are performers. And I'm going to be singing in a choir tomorrow.
I thought i'd mentioned that we're doing a half hour set at the book, But the thing is, it makes me feel sad for those people who are creators, people who actually legitimately are musicians who write. But one of the things to look out for, so the red flags to look out for when it comes to false stuff, is when you look at the picture quality itself. If it looks a little bit grainy in areas, might be slightly blurry footage. They're the types of things you need
to be looking at. And when I was watching this song today because I couldn't help myself, given that there was an article about, you know, how bad it is that a fake song is the number one on the Billboard charts, I looked at it and it does you know, you start to look at it and you think this is such crap. You know, the physics engine of walking through a puddle and the way the water splashes just it looked too real. Can I even kind of you know,
articulate it that way? There was something too symmetrical about the puddle splash. It was too perfect to be real, is the way that I kind of looked at it when I was watching the video clip, And so I think that the thing we need to think about. And this is a scientist at the University of California, Berkeley, a guy by the name of Harry Faird, and he was just saying that digital forensics is now a real,
big study. And so he's started a deep fake detection company called get Real Security, and they're now trying to develop more tools to make it easier for us to spot these fakes. Because you know, if you're flicking through socials or you're on YouTube or whatever and you kind of you've been ripped off, you feel like you've been scammed.
I mean, I don't know about you, but if I spend five minutes looking at a video and I think, oh man, that was AI generated, What a lot of shit that was, I feel like I've just wasted thirty seconds, twenty seconds, fifty seconds or a minute or whatever. But you've just wasted that time looking at this crap. If I knew if I had a deep fake detector, that would be so good, so I don't want to see it I'm not interested in seeing it. I want to see human content, real people doing real stuff.
Yeah, I have a different opinion. I agree with you in a way, but I also think, well, if somebody watches something like you think about, you think it's shit, you hate it, totally respect that, and I don't think we all need to agree. I think, but if it's the top of the billboard charts and people know it's AI, well then a lot of people knowingly are giving the approval, and a lot of people enjoy the actual irrespective of
who or what created it. They enjoy the music. And I think, you know, the fact is if I drew painting and let's say my let's say I was an artist and the art was brilliant, or AI drew an equivalent painting, so to speak, and it looks identical, it's
really just psychology. Like the music has its own value, But then it's really about like you could you could listen to a song and think this is fucking amazing because you think a human did it, But as soon as you know a human didn't do it, now your attitude about the music is different, and it's not about the actual music, but rather your beliefs about how this should work. And I understand that, but like the truth
is that this is not going away. There will be AI art, there will be AI music, there will be AI books, there will be AI movies. It's not going to go away. And while I understand that, you don't, and I'm a bit the same, Like I worry about podcasting. I'm writing a new book at the moment, and I'm like, should I even bother? Because I could write my book
in twelve seconds. It's like, should I invest all of this cognitive horsepower and mental energy and for me the capacity of AI to do what I do probably better and obviously much more quickly. You know, I don't love that, But nonetheless, it's not going to disappear. And I think it's like the horse and cart and the automobile. You know, it's like it's just going to happen. I don't think
that's going to make human art or creativity redundant. I think it's just going to change the landscape and the way that we create and buy and interact with all of that. And I'm with you, like I feel like you get ripped off because you got tripped, But if you didn't know that, you just if you watched that same thing and you thought a person had done it, then you think it's brilliant. But when you know a
person didn't do it, well, that's just psychology. It's not actually about the art or the music or the creativity. It's about where it came from. That's a different conversation.
We were messaging each other last week or the week before about the new Avatar film because we went and the second one together, and we went to Imax and it was so big and real.
None of it was real, you know, exactly.
It wasn't those flying bird things and the whales and blue skinned aliens, but the reality of it is how it made us feel when we went there was really good. Well except when you put your hand on my leg, But as I loved.
It, you look, you sat on my knee and the scary partsucker, So don't pretend like I was a clingy one. Thank goodness.
It was a scary movie all the way through too. Huh. You know, I just kind of staying on the AI topic. And this is the thing that's still I can't resolve in my mind is death. So I think we've spoken about deathbots before, and it's AI being used to preserve the voices, the stories, text information, everything about you.
Your digital footprint.
Gets used to basically create another version of you so that that could be used in, you know, after you die, to be played to your grandkids and great grandkids and they can interact with it and talk to you and have a conversation with you. I mean, it's not you, but in the mind of the person who is interacting,
they're feeling that it's an authentic interaction with you. I recently there's a friend of mine, a client here in town, who got me to take a photograph of his father and he said, oh, someone showed me a photo of a dead relative and they put the two people in the photo together and they had their arms around each other, and so I thought I'd ai the crap out of it.
And what I ended up doing was not only did I get him standing in the same photograph with his father with their arms around each each other, but they turned and looked at each other and smiled, and he was in tears. I mean, it was very heartwarming to see it. It wasn't real, but for him it was authentic and it was heart moving, and it was phenomenal and he's showing everybody, and you know, I thought, I can go one better than just a photo with an arm around. I can do more than that, and I did,
and it made him feel so good. It was exciting for him. You know, it was a beautiful CPR photo of his father, that kind of lovely tone you get with an old photo, and then it transformed his photo into the same texture and the same context and they were just standing there in the room together, looking at each other and smiling. It was a beautiful moment for him. He was very moved by it.
So how essentially that's essentially a placebo, Yeah, because it's not real, but the experience is real. Yeah, tears real, the emotion's real, the response is real. So personally, I would not want that, like when my parents die, I don't want to be talking to I don't want that. But that's just my purpose. But I understand how other people would. And you know, the funny thing is with this stuff, what would give one person comfort would freak
another person out. You know, I don't want to be talking to dead Ron, you know, I don't want that. I don't want like fuck, I'm just going to treasure the time that I haven't had and all of that. But I don't want to be I don't want to be chatting with Ai Ron in twenty years.
Well, as you know, my mum passed away sadly in the sixties and that was eleven years ago now, so it was.
It was quite a while.
I actually haven't been back to visit the grave because I don't like the idea of visiting a person's grave knowing what's there under the ground. It actually upsets me more to think about that, and I prefer to hold onto the memories of the stuff we did together and just the great experiences we had. You know, we used to do a lot of cooking together, you know in the kitchen. I used to hang out with Mum there and you know, it was it was fun and it
was great to have those memories. And we're of a generation I'm thinking more, you know, Crago, you and I where we don't have that digital footprint of our first step and our first words and our first everything's you know, I moved home and I moved to Geelong and I was there for six years, and I reckon, I've got three photographs of my entire six years, you know, living and working in Geelong. But you know, I've got lots and lots and lots of memories that I hold on to.
Yeah, yeah, and I think with all of this stuff, Yeah, like some things that would make somebody else happy or smile, or like I look at some photos, they make me sad. I don't want to look at that photo, you know, Like one of I've had a bunch of really good friends. One of my best friends in the world passed away, Rob Dixon Dicko about twelve thirteen years ago. I don't like. I've got photos of him and me that are awesome. I won't look at them because it just it doesn't
you know. I don't like he's always. Oh he's not always, but he's often on my mind and in my thoughts. But yeah, it just doesn't. Like for me, there's no upside. I don't need to go open an album or look at something like that. It doesn't. But then for other people it's the right thing to do, all right. I want to finish with this one because it's kind of the intersection of shit I'm fascinated with and AI, which
is new artificial muscle Patrick. So this is the tech section new artificial muscle that can allow humanoid robots to live four thousand times their own way. That seems that seems like impossible. It's so, yeah, tell us about that, because I definitely need some of that muscle. Yeah, that'd be great, wouldn't it.
You wouldn't have to go to the gym anymore if you could just get just winded on and there you go. It seems that all the work that you've done all those years, Craigo was for nothing. Yes, well, robotics is you know, this is the next generation of where a lot of research is going into. And what they're using is little tiny magnet ed muscle they call you little magnetic muscles and together they combine and it's basically being done in South Korea at the moment and advanced functional
materials they're calling them. And they're magnetically controlled, so the muscle can flip between being basically floppy and then rock hard through magnetism.
So that's the way they're doing it.
Because when you've got a motor that's generating for don't laugh.
Yeah, anyway, it.
Could be used for other purposes as well, Crago, but the little tiny strips of the can you're not.
Say floppy and rock hard in the same sense. You do these things on purpose. I don't. I really don't absolutely do, Tiff doesn't he Yeah, back me up.
Yeah, I just think it's a nice way to start and finish the show with smart Yeah. So the stiffened states, right, describe it?
You could take I think you could say rigid or high ten soil. I don't think you need to say stiff and floppy and whatever the other one was.
Anyway, the rigid state is brought about by these materials that could only one point two grams can hold up to five kilograms. That's four thousand times its own weight. It's as strong as an ant here so and when it's softened, so when it's flaccid, it can stretch to around twelve times the original legs.
If what's worse, moist or flaccid?
Oh, you had to bring it up.
Today's podcast. Friday's podcast is called what's it called? Please don't say moist or something like.
That, warned, I warn the whole typ.
Yeah, she went onto the typ Facebook page and apologize in advance for the name of today's the title of today's episode, and she did. Creat i'ven't even had a look this morning, I should look Patrick, we got to go tell people how they can connect with you.
No one wants to connect with me after this. Go to websitesnow dot com dot au and always happy to take suggestions on stuff we can talk about your websites noow dot com do you I'm imported?
Thank you Patrick, thank you TIF, thank you so I mean, for that one person who's still listening, Well done you
Thank you work, great work, marathon performance