I've got our term. It's of your project. It's harped. It's Scott Douglas, Scotty Douglas, paramedic, man about town, chef, exotic dancer, author, poet, creative genius who's been on the show before, and he's back.
High mate, how are you? Thank you very much. You're going to make me cry again. Last time you said a whole bunch of good stuff to me, I cried. Do you remember, well? Yeah, yeah, I do.
Well, I mean you are that. It's funny like I'm one of those people that if I take the piss out of you, I like you. You know. That's the way that And it's maybe I don't know if that's sometimes I generalize and go, oh, that's a bloke thing, but clearly it's not all blokes. But I tend to make fun of a in a loving way that people, or take the piss out of the people that I care about. That's that's almost my love language. When someone calls me a silly cunt, I just want to cuddle them.
You know, it depends on the context, I guess, but no, you're a gun.
I love talking to.
You because I love learning from you. I love listening to your stories, and you know, I think that, like, if I'm listening to a podcast, I want it to be organic and real and conversational. I don't want it to be some boring, prescripted, fucking monologue. So Scott questioned one about tell me about your childhood.
Oh Jesus, that's a If I actually did tell you about my childhood, Craig, it would be a lot. It would be a series of podcasts, and there would probably be a few traumatic events involved. It wouldn't be pleasant. Unfortunately, we might open that door one day.
Tell everyone why you and I You can throw me under the bus. Tell everyone why you and I are now doing this for the third time. As if you want me to tell you how particular podcast, how inept I am.
Well, you're talking about the podcast the other day when you were talking about no sea bows and stuff like that.
I'm talking about the fact that you and I recorded an hour yesterday. Oh and I didn't fucking push the buttons.
Yes, okay, yes, so yes you did that. We had a lovely conversation yesterday, which was great. I was very happy. I was nervous at the start we got into it. It was really cool. And then invertently, you rang me yesterday after said you want the good news or the bad news, and you said the podcast was great, but we didn't record it. So here we are again Wednesday morning recording. So yeah, I'm excited, Well, me too.
And then we started also ten minutes ago and I fucked up. So this is actually the third TEMP. But anyway, all right, so give us something from your childhood, Like, let's not do the whole thing you said. If we did open the door on your childhood, it could be wow, a multi episode ex abganza. Okay, what's something fascinating and memorable from your childhood that's going to blow our socks off or at least interest us.
I probably ran away half a dozen times. I used to sleep on people's floors from about the age of about thirteen to about sixteen or seventeen. Like unfortunately, I grew up in a very violent household and my dad was like a chronic alcoholic and incredibly violence. So on a regular basis, I used to run away, and I like, I slipped in the train station and the gentleman in
the train station was absolutely amazing. He made me cup of tea, gave me biscuits to eat and let me sleep in the parcel room of the train station because that was you could lock it from the train station, but when the train would pull up, they could open the door to drop off parcels or take parcels out. So I slept in there, and I slept on top of a whole bunch of warm newspapers that had been delivered.
Wow.
Yeah, So I was probably about were you when I thirteen or fourteen when I did that? And I never forget that. Man. I'm actually sorry, I'm getting a little bit emotional about it, but that for me, that gentleman probably at the time like a complete stranger. He's literally a fucking train station dude in a country town. I turned up, was sitting on the platform and he said,
are you going home? And I said no, And he asked me where I'd come from and I told him and which was really really far away, and I'd basically walked to the train station following the train tracks. And he literally made me a cup of tea, put me inside in a safe place and said I have to go home, mate, and he left me there, which I think it was an amazing thing to do, like incredibly gracious, and he just basically explained what happened in the morning
of the morning. I just went to school like I always went to school, even when I ran away, because school was sort of safe and you'd get a feed and you could have a shower, clean your clothes, all that kind of stuff. So yes, so there you go. There's something I absolutely did not think we were going to discuss this morning, mister Harper. Congratulations.
And how did that influence you as an adult? Like, do you think that was I mean, obviously that is not a good experience in isolation, and just objectively that's not a good experience for a child. But how did that inform the way that you navigated the world moving forward? Was there any resilience from that way? There any awareness or like what did that do for you? That experience?
I honestly think a shape a person who I am. I'd like to think there are times when I am a gracious person, like I have no issue picking up hitchhikers, I have no problem dealing with the homeless, and obviously I would do that on a regular basis, working as a paramit, especially in Melbourne. I actually think I became the person that I needed when I was that age.
I really do believe that, and I believe I was influenced by a lot of the time the parents of my friends who clearly understood that there was an issue if on a Wednesday night I was asleep on their couch and it's a school night and I'm fourteen years old. So again, you know, those are the people that I can't thank enough. I have continued to see them and thank them and explain to them how powerful it was for me to have a safe place to go to,
and they're aware of that. They you know, I still go to some of the I still go and spend time with the parents of my friends, and they like I go there, and they treat me like one of their kids, which is amazing for me.
Can I ask you, well, one is your dad's still alive.
No, he passed away two years ago. He had some like a whole bunch of very aggressive cancers. So he was a pilot in the Vietnam War. He did two tours in Vietnam. He was in nine Squadron. And so when we were young, we grew up on Air Force baces. So I mean, clearly, as I've gotten older and I have a much better understanding of, for example, things like PTSD. Clearly, my dad was unwell and he had you know, I got four brothers and a sister, you know, like big household,
small house. He had limited tools and was working very hard. You know. So while I'm not trying to excuse his behavior, I just have a better understanding of it.
I think as somebody who's medically qualified. Right, and it's twenty twenty five. In our understanding of you know, mental health and the myriad of variables and factors surrounding very mental health, you know, the emotional and the behavioral and the physiological stuff. You must look back and think, because what was that? That was like, you know, forty years ago, years ago? Yeah, yeah, and you must think we we didn't know, you know, compared to what we know now.
We knew fuck all them, didn't we? We didn't really even I don't know if the term I don't know how long PTSD as a term or as a diagnosed condition has been around, but it would have been in the very very old days. They used to say that people would come from war shell shops. Yes, yes, you know what looking back did was there any awareness or understanding about that forty years ago around our dad's behavior.
Yeah, when I was probably in my mid to late twenties, Like the Australian government finally recognized the Vietnam veterans and allowed them, for example, to march on Anzac Day, which if you think about you think about that just for a minute. So these people were not allowed to march
on Anzac Day. So you know, like I said, I'm not excusing my father's behavior at all, Like I think he was at times a terrible person, but you know, so he finally gets to march on Anzac Day, which he deserves to march on Anzac Day with all these mates, and I probably learned more from his mates about him than I ever learned about him from him. So we would go to these events, which I was very proud of what my dad had done. Like he literally volunteered
twice to go and fly helicopters in Vietnam. Nuts, right, And he appears in books. There's a book called Chicken Hawk, and he like they talk about him innutes like when he passed away, Like like it was in crazy the amount of people that came forward and said, yeah, I'd serve with your dad. He saved my life, or the sons of his people would come forward to me and my brothers and say, you know, this is what your
dad did for my dad. So yes, it wasn't until I become a paramedic and I had a much better understanding of say, for example, what PTSD was that I reflected and went, yeah, lookause much as my dad at times a terrible person, he clearly was unwell. He clearly was sad, He clearly was struggling as a person, and I sort of did feel sorry for him, Like I felt really sad that I never got an opportunity to
speak to him about that. And obviously then for me, someone who has PTSD themselves, like it probably would have been handy for one of a better word, to at least have a conversation with someone about what was going to be.
Like, Yes, I wonder what your dad would have been like if he never went to war. I wonder if I wonder what kind of you know, because you go, clearly he at times was a terrible person. I wonder if he was I wonder if he was a terrible person or I wonder if he just demonstrated terrible behavior because of the trauma, Like I.
Love talking to you, Craik, because obviously your questions are absolutely amazing and incredibly insightful for for someone who possibly hasn't been around those kind of people. But I went and saw my dad's mother, and I always got along with my nan and Pop. They were always very very good to me, very proud of me.
You know.
I used to go there sometimes when I was on shift in uniform, and they, you know, they loved it. And my Nan said to me that my dad loved music and loved dancing, and that he was an artist and that he'd won a scholarship to go to Melbourne UNI as an artist. And I used to sometimes watch my dad draw and paint and to despite his father, who also ironically was an Air Force pilot. My dad's dad flew Catalinas in Asia, the flying boats. He went
and joined the Air Force to pieces dad off. So he had a scholarship for Melbourne UNI to do art and apparently it was an amazing artist and to piece his dad off, he went and joined the Air Force. Like like fuck, yeah, how different possibly would my life be if my dad had gone on to be an art teacher or a sign writer or a graphic designer when I got older, I would sometimes watch my dad's behavior and think to myself, I wish he understood how bad he's behaving, but I don't know if he does.
Yeah, I'm fascinated with that. Like, it is very easy to go And I'm not talking about you or your dad necessarily, but broadly, either it's a good person, this is a bad person, or he's a preck or she's this or she's that, and then which is again, as you said, it's not to justify or excuse any bad behavior. But like I think about like, the idea of being objective about yourself is ridiculous, right. I can't be objective about me because my entire view of everything about me
is completely subjective. Right, So let's put that on the psychological table and be fucking self aware and honest. But I think I'm not a bad person. I think I'm relatively kind and emotionally involved in all of these things that I think. By the way, I could be wrong,
but that's how I see me. However, if I was putting on my big boy pants and trying to not be trapped in ego or fucking self grandization, I reckon if I had have gone to war and gone through the shit that your dad went through, or a version of that, or you know, there's every chance I would have been, in inverted commas, a prick or a prick to be around for people because of my trauma and what I'd seen and what I couldn't talk about and
the psychological and emotional damage that had been done to me. And I'm not justifying anything. I'm just trying to understand it because we always look at the thing from the outside while not actually being in the thing, like we don't you and I, well, you do to an extent,
and I want to talk to you about that. But like I'm I feel that my life has gone great, not because I'm great or I deserve it, but just because I'm lucky, Like I don't you know, I've worked reasonably hard and I've created a few good outcomes, so that's good. But also, as my friend Vinn says, I was kissed on the dick, right, and what that you know, it's like and that's just a very bad expression of being very fucking lucky, right, Like I was born lucky.
My parents were you know, we had our moments, but over all, my parents are fucking great. You know, my schooling was great, my friends were great. I grew up in a safe space, you know, all I didn't. I wasn't sleeping in a fucking train station when I was thirteen and fourteen. And so yeah, these things are complicated and it's really easy from the outside.
I'm not talking about you judging anyone.
I'm just talking in general. It's like, yeah, that is horrible behavior, but you know that's Stephen Covey quote, and lots of other people said it. Also, it's like seek first to understand and then to be understood. And with things like this, I'm always trying to figure out, like, yes, we can acknowledge that that's bad behavior, or that that's inappropriate, or that's fucking heinous, right, whatever it is, wherever it is on the behavioral spectrum. But what I'm interested in
is trying to understand it, you know. And I guess for you, as an observer of your dad, you must have some interesting insights.
And also, yeah, I guess, like I said, I got to meet some of my dad's colleagues. They were amazing people, Like one of the guys's got to spend a fair bit of time with I don't know if I can say his name on air, But he was a tunnel rat. I don't know if anyone knows what that is. But his role was to go inside the tunnels that the Vietnamese soldiers had built and spend time. And he would have a torch and a pistol and he has he has,
I think, been awarded like some serious medals. Yes, to spend time with amazing, lovely man like he has children, his children have children. You watch him and he's this beautiful, beautiful man and you go, oh my god, why didn't my dad turn out like that? Right? Because clearly had very very similar experiences. However, I've also been with him when there is the smallest amount of threat towards him or his family, and he is a completely different man.
That absolutely frightened the shit out of me.
Really, So we're back even though we weren't here folks, Sorry we had done. We're having internet issues because Scott lives in Antarctica and there's no signal it does he does. Now we're gonna we're going to soldier on because I love this chat. So you were talking about your dad, yes, yeah, who was just a winner, great bloke as except when there was a threat go on.
So we're at the service station and he parked his motorcycle, he put fuel in it, and he was waiting for the next motorcycle before he moved his Yeah, which effectively blocks any car out. But it just means that all the bike's going to fill up at once and one person pays. Right. Yeah, this gentleman got out of his full drive and walked over and started having to go with him. Now, this guy would have been forty and the other guy would have been seventy and looks of
a small statue. But the just how how he behaved, like his body movements and how he moved towards the man and the menace in his voice. I shit myself for the God, not for my friend, really, And I spoke to his sons about it, and they told me this story, which may be well known. I'm not awhab, but one day their dad, quite late at night down in Frankston, had pulled into an ATM to get money and was standing at the ATM waiting to pull hise
cash out. Two young people come up behind him clearly to rob him, and he put both of them in hospital. There were young kids in their twenties. He would have been in his seventies. So the police tried to charge him and he just said, look at the security camera.
So I guess I spent a lot of time with those predominantly men who were lovely to a point, but then you would see them sometimes say and do things where you would have to reflect on their behavior and go they have the capacity to harm someone because they
have harmed people. They've literally killed people, and they carry that with them and I think, sadly it becomes part of their DNA and they probably I don't know if if it's consciously or subconsciously, have a switch where they go, I feel a threat and they put they sadly have to put that switch on.
Can you can you enlighten me a little bit about like the Vietnam War and return veterans, Like why were they not allowed to march? Like they were literally sent there by the Australian government. I mean, it wasn't there, It wasn't their idea. No, I thin they were sent there to fight. They were sent there to go to war. They were sent there to whatever you know, to do war and all of the things that that involves. So what was the why were they not allowed to march.
I'm sure a lot of my listeners know the answer, but yes, some in the dark.
Well, the first thing is it was not considered a war, was considered a peacekeeping conflict. So, for example, my dad never got any kind of compensation from the government like so and there will be some of your listeners who understand this. So he didn't get a gold card, say, he didn't become part of Veteran Affairs, but not just him,
but his whole generation of men that went there. So it wasn't until maybe twenty years ago that he started getting a pension because he was not considered a veteran, which is once again not just him but everybody involved in that conflict. And my mother, that's what she did. She worked for Veteran Affairs and helped my father get
a pension and was so successful at it. That's what she ended up doing basically for a living in her retirement, was getting other veterans, you know, pensions from the government. Some men who came back to Australia and then disappeared, like literally went bush because that's where they felt safe. I've lived for twenty thirty years without any kind of
compensational like a healthcare card, nothing like that. They would come to my mother and say this is we know who you are and we know that you help these people. Can you help me? And so my mum then went and worked for veteran Affairs up until she died, getting people pensions or just their legal right what they were allowed to have.
This is a weird question, but I'm sure the answer is yes. But is PTSD like on a scale do you think, like obviously there are different levels, Like there's like ten out of ten, you know, can't get out of it to share? Yes, like you know, colloquially speaking, fucked like life is terrible, can't operate, can't function if that's ten? Yes, where was your dad and where are you on the scale?
Okay, so my dad was a nine, So my dad couldn't sit in a room unless you could see the door. And lots of my friends a lot that too, And I am like that. But there's all this stuff my dad categorically could not do and I only understand it as I got older. Once again, Craigy, like your insight into this is amazing, right. So, so I have friends that literally are on medication, that have spent up to
eight weeks in therapy or rehab centers. And I have been the person that they call when they're allowed to have a phone call. And I've been that person multiple times. You know, I've been prevented from seeing my friends because you know, their doctors think it's not healthy for them to be around someone who is also a paramedic. So on a scale of things, like I think I'm incredibly lucky, like what you said earlier, Like I don't take any
kind of medication. I have lots of therapy, but I have an understanding of how my brain and my condition works, so I purposely go and you know, like this morning, went up to the lake which is probably ten degrees and spent ten minutes sitting in the water just to get myself cool, literally and just to get myself in a place where I felt calm and I could go
and deal with people. So I think I'm a five, But I sadly have mates who can't get out of bed, who take medication, and you know, because of their career they.
Chose Hey, yeah, thank you for sharing that and being vulnerable and honest. I wonder I think about the space between treating the underlying problem. I don't know how much we can fix it, of course, let's put an asterisk. But dealing with the underlying problem and medicating the symptoms. Talk to me about the space between, you know, trying to alleviate some symptoms for obvious reasons versus trying to improve the actual cause of this, like the underlying problem.
Okay, so the symptoms for me. So once I understood, which probably took two or three years of therapy, I once I understood that I wasn't a bad person or like it took me six years of therapy to literally I was driving home once that day and my therapist had said to me, you're a good man, like you do good things, and she always wanted me to say I am a good man out loud, for me six years to do that.
Which is terrible.
Once I did it, I realized I was And I just had a medical condition the same as diabetes or you know something or a heart condition where you could possibly, you know, using lifestyle choices and medication make it smoother for yourself. So I wanted to keep working. So there's things I could not do. So I couldn't work at night because I would fall asleep and I'd have nightmares which would inevertially wake up my working partner, and which
happened sadly multiple times. I would wake up screaming. They would run down the hall from their bedroom wake me up, and I immediately thought I just slept through a page or something, so I thought they were coming to get me to go get a job, whereas they were coming to get me because I was screaming. So we would then ring the duty manager and say, look, I need half an hour. This is what's happened. And after a while you go, well, I probably can't work at night anymore.
So unfortunately, yeah, so then you can't work at night. So I put things into place that made it safer for me, you know, and lots of exercise for whatever reason, lots of exercise for me is really good. And I understood, like I like doing what some people would consider risky things like I like riding my metuscle fast, I like going out into big water, but they're calculated risks, Like I look at what's going on and why I want to do those things, and I understand that it gives
me a thrill. So it gives me the same thrill as having an ambulance fast at two o'clock in the morning.
So, but what's the you know what is interesting in all of this, Right, So what is what does a pill do to a human's body? Well, it changes biochemistry, It changes changes what's happening in the brain. Well, what does writing a motorbike do for you and me? It changes our biochemistry, it changes it changes what's happening with hormone production and kind of hormones and endocrime position, endocrime system. It puts you and me like for our listeners who
don't like motorbikes, totally get it. And this is the beauty of this. Like for our listeners who don't like motorbikes, it would produce a stress response. Yes, for you and me, it literally puts us in a better place mentally, emotionally, and physiologically. It actually puts my biochemistry in a better place. May be a better place than taking the best pill in the world. Right, And so everything on a level.
When you've got and then you can extrapolate that physiological response to an activity or some kind of external stimulus versus an internal medication, then we start to understand how we can manage our physical, mental and emotional health through behaviors rather than and I'm not discounting medicine, of course, but through behaviors and doing things and having experiences versus popping a pill.
Once once again, I can't agree with you more, Craig. And I've had the privilege of spending time with people who have discovered for them that maybe not riding a motorcycle, but perhaps writing it. It's like surfing a big wave, or learning to play music, or any new experience which helps rewire their brain, helps them settle. So you know, I've got mates that have literally got one of my very friends learnt to sew on a selling machine, and
one of my other mates who's evers twice. Actually, he said something very very simple to me when he is climbing. There is no mortgage, there is no kids, there's nothing but the climb. There's nothing but the handhold. There's nothing but how your rope is. Like you are. You are in that moment. You can't be unwell. You can't do
that and be unwell at the same time. So because I was explained to him how much I love riding fast and my experience at writing at the Isle of Man, and he said that's how climbing mountains is for me. That's my safe place, which is crazy when you think about it, right, But I understand more about him, and he's an incredibly lovely man. He's one of my favorite people in the world. Like he's a great dad, Like he's a good grandfather, Like you watch him. But he, unfortunately,
you said, literally kill people for a living. So he needs a safe place.
Yes, yes, yes, And it like what is fascinating with this is and I mean this is true with traditional medication as well, but like the thing that will put you in your happy place will put somebody else in their anxious place, right, Like it's.
True, isn't it. And so it's like people go to me, you know, maybe you should really try meditation. I'm like, fucking meditation. Do you know what meditation? You know, me sitting trying to meditate in the sense that most people think about meditation. By the way, is meditation great? The answer is maybe it's fucking great for some people, but it's not for everyone, you know, just like talk therapy is really effective for some people and really ineffective for
other people. Like this whole notion that, oh Scott, you're suffering from this, Therefore you need that or Scott, you have this problem, therefore you need the solution that worked for me, because the solution that works for Craig could actually make Scott's problem worse because Scott is not Craig. So this global stupid idea that we have of that there is an answer for every you know, like, what's the problem, Well, this is the answer. No, the question
is what's the answer for that individual. How does that individual's physiology interact with that experience or that motorbike ride, or that meditation class or that talk therapy, Like it's trying to figure out what works for that person because literally, and you think about I've said this before, but you know, somebody can have a handful of nuts and they're having a healthy snack. Somebody else is doing the same thing, is just putting a death sentence in their mouth because
they'll have an anaphylactic reaction. Yes, and if they do that in the wrong place at the wrong time, they're going to die. Somebody else just eats a few nuts while they're driving to the gym. Right, it's not about the nuts. It's not about the talk therapy, it's not about the motorbike ride. It's not about the meditation class. It's about how that affects that individual, for better or worse.
Yes, I think, and I'll probably repeat myself. I think I'm very lucky because I discovered what some people would consider safe pursuits or a safe place to put my dark energy. So I like swimming, So I would come off a bad shift and just go and swim. And I'd swim for two k's. I just swim, but rather than drink because I thought my dub was an alcoholic, I can't drink. But I do need a safe place
to put my dark energy. Yeah. So sometimes I would ride my motorcycle too fast, you know, and the you know, the ramifications of that are catastrophic, and I've crashed twice. I've been hospitalized. Yeah, So that is always at the back of my mind when I sometimes get on my motorcycle and go. You just need to go fast and smooth. Yes, And I do think I'm lucky that I don't want to take alcohol, or want to take a drug, or want to harm myself in some way. I want to
do something positive. Now, as you said, some people would go, Yeah, Roddie, mostcycle that's not safe, okay, And they might want to play golf. I couldn't play golf, mate, Like, I can't see that. I just can't. Like I need it to be maybe a little faster and maybe a little riskier. I just and that is because of dopamine and because of how it feels when you pull it off, if that's if that helps explain it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
So compared to where you were when you were in the you know, the cut and thrust of you know, waking up in the middle of the night and screaming and at the cold face of being a paramedic every day, like every working day, and dealing with trauma and dealing like being in the middle of accidents that most people could not cope with, and you know all that stuff. How are you you now? Like are you are you more operational? More functional? Do you have a different perspective around all of that?
Yes. So I had lunch with one of my closest friends. I've known that young lady for forty years. I had lunch with her about three weeks ago, and I sat down and she said, oh my god, you look lighter. And it was such a beautiful thing to say, and it was such a gracious thing to say, and we had this whole conversation about where I am today and how I feel about myself and that's why you have friends. That's why you need good friends, because you know, imagine
if she had have said, you don't look well. And I mean I left that lunch feeling so full and loved and supported and like I was over the moon. And I said to her, yes, you're right, I do feel like what you just said. I feel lighter, I sleep better. You know, I'm writing more, I play guitar,
or I have so much more. I'm now to come and have a coffee with Craig Harper, to go and do listen to music, to go swimming with my daughter, Like I now think I'm catching up on things, especially on seeing friends that I was unable to do before. And I'm looking forward to going back to school and learning new things. And yeah, it's probably I think I'm in a very good place.
It's yesterday I was talking to a young man who I don't know well, but I've spoken to him a few times, and he reached out to me the other day. His name's should I do this? Yeh? Fuck it? He's a great dude. His name's Will. His name's Will Murray, and Will was an up and coming footballer. He almost definitely would have been drafted into the AFL. And he had an accident. I think he dived into a pool when he was about I'm going to say around fifteen
and became a quadriplegic. Right, And yesterday I met him at the cafe and so he's this twenty three year old dude in a chair and we're talking about we're talking about lots of things, and like, talk about somebody who who has every right to feel sorry for themselves but doesn't like I inspired him. Sorry, he inspired me more than I inspired him yesterday. And Mike, Fuck, you know when you go away and you go like I'm meant to be the guy who does all this, I go,
I just want to be more like him. I'm like, fuck, I'm an amateur at this shit. I want to be
more like him. But anyway, we're talking about that, and I'm kind of digressing a little bit, but that you know, when guys are struggling with stuff, or guys are dealing with hard stuff, and I'm generalizing a little bit, some women are similar to this, But I've tried to explain this to various people over time, when like when you're close to somebody, somebody that you care about, or you know, like sometimes taking the piss what seems to be inappropriate
is actually the most appropriate. And I was talking to Will yesterday about stuff, and he said, like, while he understands the sympathy from people, it almost drives him nuts, Like, you know, because here's a young guy in a wheelchair and he really likes it when like his mates take.
The piss and they treat him.
And of course he's exactly the same, slightly different situation, but he's just a young dude who's got his life ahead of him. And I said to him, well, for what it's worth, I don't give a fuck about you if that makes you feel better, and he laughed his ass off, right, he said, you know, and just that like trying to figure out I don't know, like, you know, when people are struggling emotionally and mentally, sometimes I'm like, yeah, I don't know that leaning in going like sometimes leaning
in and going, hey Scott, are you okay? And sometimes that's the right thing, but also sometimes having some fun, you know, bringing some levity, like recognizing what's going on. Yeah, mate, you're having a bad day, you're having a bad week, having a bad month. I'm here for you, by the way, like I'm honestly I'm here for you. But for fox sake, can you get out of bed your lazy you know, like, for fuck, come on bright, like you're fucking depressing me,
You're fucking idiot. Let's go and get a coffee or whatever it is. I just think that bringing a different energy. And I know that's not a standalone solution or a recommendation, but like I was looking into him and I'm thinking, yeah, what what he needs and what he thrives on is when people just talk to him as though there is no chair, there is no disability. Just talk to him like a twenty because that's what he is. Like, what he is is a young dude with a lot of
fucking potential and a great attitude. So just talk to that person. Don't talk to the disability, don't talk to the chair, don't talk to the image, right, you know it's and yeah, I don't know, there's no revelation in that for you, but it just kind of struck me.
No, No, I think there is Craig Like, I had the privilege of being a volunteer for the Australian Paralympic team, and I've got to go to the twenty twelve Paralympics, and then I've got to spend lots of time with lots of paralympians and yeah, what I learned from them is immeasurable, Like how they hang shit on each other and you go, oh my god, he just fucking called him legless, right, But we sat around a table having dinner and it was like having dinner with your mates,
exactly the same, especially after they won the silver medal. The basketballers, like that was a privilege, and they're just sitting around talking shit, like hanging shit on their wives, just like everybody else does. And then you would go to help them, like they would move and you'd go to grab the chair, and I remember one guy saying to me, they're going to fucking follow me around because I'm taking a piece. Unless you're going to follow me
around everywhere I go, don't help them. Yeah, so yeah, yeah. One of my best friends is a former paralympian and I love spending time with him because if I ever start winging, if I ever go fucking hell, mate. Some days he just looks at me like serious, Yeah, yeah, do you want to have a crack at my life?
You know?
So?
Yeah, there's levity in those situations. Absolutely.
Do you think people can I don't know if this is the right word, but you'll figure it out. It's not the best question, but it's not it. I'm heading in the right direction. Can people overcome trauma? Yes, like either fully or partly? Or do we just exist with it? What are your thoughts?
Okay, say, trauma to me is like a passenger in my car. I know if I go somewhere, it's going to come because I might pull up at a set of lights and see nineteen ninety six red Falcon wagon. Yeah, and I'll go I remember, I remember pulling a per and have a car just like that car, And that's
you can't do anything about that, right, Yeah. Like you might go into a house that's your friend's house and there's a smell and it's the same smell that reminds you of that stabbing that you went to once again, you can't it's two o'clock in the afternoon, it's a lovely day. You're going there for a barbecue, and you can't do anything about that other than not react. You go, I recognize that smell. I recognize that smell reminds me of that stabbing I went to. However, yes, I am
not at that stabbing. I'm at my friend's house where I'm safe and we're going to have a great feed. Please continue. So, yes, like I said, I don't know how some of my colleagues or some of my former colleagues and my mates do that stuff. I just only know how I do it.
And so when you're in the middle of that and you recognize the nine ninety six red Falcon wagon all the room that has a familiar but undesirable smell, or how does that affect you? One to ten, ten being crippling and overwhelming, one being extremely minor. How does that affect you? And does it affect you less now than it did five years ago.
Absolutely affects me less now. But sometimes it does catch you by surprise, because you'll be like, oh, I'm okay with the red falcon YEP, I know it's just a fucking thing and it'll pass. And I normally look at my watch and look at my heart rate, and my heart rates eighty and I drive off and go yep. Cool. However, there are sometimes where someone will mention something and you go, oh fuck, yeah, I did deliver a baby by the
side the road by myself. Yeah fuck, that was heavy. Yeah, And you might then reflect on how you traveled after that job. And so sometimes it can be around for a couple of days. I have to be honest, like I certainly have had situations where I've become completely uncomfortable. I can no longer stay in that situation. I have
to go somewhere where I feel is safe. And I have before turned up at people's houses and just walked into their house and got I fucking I'm not good, and they go, yeah, sure, mate, fucking you know you know what spare room is, yeah, and not come out for two days.
Yeah.
I mean I don't do that anymore, which I'm very thankful for. But I at the time, I was incredibly thankful for the people that accepted me into their houses. So then I feel I have a responsibility when that occurs to me. When someone knocks on my door or rings me at twenty to eleven at night and you know that there's something wrong, I feel.
A dichotomy with the consequences of the potential consequences of trauma and PTSD. I know they intersect, but I feel like, tell me if this is this is my guest, this is my hypothesis. You know, I don't know, so I'm just asking a question. But I feel like some people can come through that stuff and out the other side. They're more shut down, they're more switched off emotionally, they're
they're they're more broken, whatever that means. But maybe for other people, you would come out and because you've been through that, you have a greater level of empathy for people that are going through that. Like, I feel like you would have more empathy and understanding for people going through that now because you've been through that.
Yeah. Yes, Like I basically volunteer as a person that can be called, which you can always not you can always not take the call. But I find myself I'm happy. Happy is the right wather that's actually a bad word, but I'm way more comfortable going I know this person's
going to ring men, I know they're fucked. I've know that had a shit day, And sometimes you get a briefing on what the job was and say this person may have been a former student of yours and they are three years in the job and they've just gone to a terrible job, and they actually want to speak to you because they used to speak to you at school.
So and I, ironically, probably a week ago, I rang one of my former students who I know was having a bad time, and you know, he was, oh, my god, thanks so much for ringing, mate, I said, dude, I not fucking ring any day of the week. And we had this very long conversation and the last thing we talked about was whittling, because that's what he does for a hobby.
Now.
He whittles, right, And he was telling me how he spent ten minutes telling me how he was making a spoon but fucking way better than talking about the job he'd gone to. He just needed someone to have a chat with about something normal. So something abnormal. This is what is abnormal. Now I talks you about my new hobby, which is whittling, and I'm like, dude, it's an old man's hobby. And he's like, I am the youngest person by forty years in the class.
That's hilarious. It's like, I think the funny thing is that sometimes like yeah, or you don't need to talk about the problem. You just need to talk about anything but the problem. Sometimes just to get out of that that's that folk like where all you where? You're in the middle of that experience and then you're talking about motorbikes or surfing or whittling or whatever it is, just to shift your attention and your emotional energy away from that thing that's giving you that anxiety.
Yes, and we do that as first responders. And you watch the newer people, who predominantly are younger. So you go to a massive, big two or three car incident, hollicopters, everything right, yeah, and someone will walk up to you and go, oh, when's your next day off? Oh yeah, two days from now? Well what are you doing? And have a reasonable conversation about what you're doing on your days off amongst all this carnage and amongst all this mayhem. And then newer people are like, how the fuck do
you do that? Just talk about the football and you go, what do you want to talk about? Mate? The dead people? No one wants to talk about the dead people. Maye not now, later we will. How about we talk about normal stuff that normal people talk about.
Yeah. But you know, to people listening to this, they're going to go, how the fuck is wrong with you talking about the football and that situation? But I understand it. It's yeah, it is like what's funny? Is one person's weird as another person's normal? Yes, one, you know, it's like like when you said that, I'm like, really, that's what you're But then you're like, yeah, but that kind of makes sense because you know, what's done is done. We can't undo that, can't change it. Yes, we can't
change that. So now we've just got to navigate it. We do everything humanly possible to look after and protect it and serve these people. But this is where we are at right now, and so right now, what we're going to do is talk about the game on the weekend. And that's really for your own mental.
Health, right absolutely. And what I used to do because obviously I was a chef, so I used to bake. So I used to bake all the time, and I said, take Anzac cookies and chocolate chip cookies to work in a big tub. And after really big jobs, we always used to get into normally my ambulance and I'd pull the cookies out and I'd pass them around. We'd all be standing there eating cookies, talking about what happened. It's normal. Yeah, And it got to the point that's like years into
the job. One of my managers, we've gone to this unfortunately, this really big car accident, and he came up to me. He goes, you have any cookies in the car? Yeah, he goes, can you bring them? I went, oh, wow, okay, So because like we'd actually normalized something, yes, yes, And after I couldn't stop baking cookies because everyone always wanted them, which was lovely. But yeah, it was very interesting for me.
I do distinctly remember standing by the side of the road in Point cook at this huge car accident and we're all standing around eating cookies. Andyone's going, O, I's gotty, These are fucking great.
I'm like, I know, I kind of feel like that's bad. Yeah, I'm kidding.
I think from the outside watching that, I believe the public would go what the fuck. But at some stage you have to let it. One of my instructors said to me, let it drain out of your boots. Just let it go and let it and let it. It'll go, and then you do something else because just remember, mate, you have to pack up the car and then go do it again. Yes, so you can't think about what you just did because it takes away from what you're
about to do. So you've got to have that moment of normality in the middle.
And you've got to go home and say hello to your your missus or your husband, whatever the case is, or your kids or and then you've got to turn up and tomorrow you've got to be brand new and great. You know, hey, mate, it's always great chatting with you.
Thank you that much.
You're going to become a regular. We've just you've just been given the like the Facebook tick, You've been given the typ tick, so you've got the the whatever that status is, you've got that now. So we'll chat to you another week or three. But tell people how they can find you and connect with you.
Mister Horatio Jones on Instagram. And if people would like to have a look at my books. I've written two books and I'm in the process writing a third one which comes out hopefully in March, they can go to Horatio hyphen Jones dot com dot au and check out the website. Thank you very very.
Much, Oh mate, We appreciate you. Thanks for all the stories and all the wisdom and all the insight. We love having you as being part of the team. You have a good day. Man.
Cheers Man, your team mate.