I'll get a team It's to you project for the second time, and take two Tiffany and Cook Roberts Capuccio over there on the west coast of the United States will start with tiff Who's down the bottom of Australia High Tiff High.
So I have a sneaking suspicion this is going to be a fun show.
No, it could be. It could be.
It's always good when we get Boy Wonder on. You never know what's going to happen. He told us before we went live that in a crisis, like a high level crisis, he's amazing, but low level crisis not so good.
What's that about, Bobby.
I think I just do the opposite of what everybody else does. I think there's a certain level of pressure where I just calm down whether people would freak out, But in instances where most people would be calm.
They freak out. I've been around you once or twice when you've freaked out.
It's interesting.
I want to be around you when there's a real catastrophe, just to you bask in your calm.
I don't know got that way, I don't know. I don't know if I can blame Tatt's I don't know. Maybe it's like a migdala hijack, Like maybe I haven't just an enlarged a megala. A MiG dollar amidal is probably massive and that triggers me. So they like run out of whole milk at the coffee shop. Make it the cappuccino crisis, right, something that's real.
That's what I look for in a potential.
That's what we look for in a man, Tiff and I, we look for a blake with a bigger migdala.
You send the size of it is amigdala?
Fucking hell?
Is that a bigger migdala? Are you just happy to see me?
Doctor Roy Sugarman, I don't know. I don't know how big he's a migdala?
Is?
It just never came up in conversation.
Why did you hold your hands apart like you just caught a fish?
What all right? So for everyone who's gone, what are they talking about?
A MiG dollar is in simple terms like the emotional EPI center of the brain, keep.
Going, oh yeah, So he told me that prior to a seminar, my brain would function better because of the intense adhd if I did something to elevate my CTCOL means my stress horlone levels because whilst other people it adversely affects their focus, for people with ADHD, it can actually improve mine.
So that's great.
So what like, for example, for example, to do, like, what what should you do that I shouldn't do? You with IDHD me without it? Although that's debatable. Tips definitely got it. In fact, we've all probably got it. Maybe it's something that's transient. So what should you do to get the best out of you? If you're going into a presentation or something, don't look at.
The content until I get into the room. Like if I'm doing a conference, obviously, if I'm going there to do one thing, this doesn't work. But if you're at a conference and you're slated for four or five slots, don't look at your material. So that's it. You got five seconds. It's a surprise to you. The people in the room know more about what you're going to talk about than you do. You see it, that's a lot of pressure and it'll help you focus.
Do you think you are better under pressure, like real pressure than the average person or worse or about the same.
I think it's context dependent, Like again, real pressure, like a work related situation. Presenting a little bit of pressure definitely increases my performance.
But what about something You've got to stop talking about work for this episode presenting, and we got in trouble, you know, we got in trouble for talking about coaching. A lady sent us some email. Shout out to that lady. Third time this year we've talked about coaching, and I think it was a lady. Melissa told me I didn't see it, but shout out to that person.
What about shoes crossed? About that? Well? I think I think the thing is that we just get on and talk.
And because I do this every day of the year and other people's and you do it a lot, and we talk off the podcast as well, we forget what conversations we've had, which is really.
Not a good way to run a podcast.
So we will do better. We will do better. But what about outside of work? How do you deal with pressure like in the real world? For one of a better term, Just like we.
Were talking about earlier, if it's something that is seriously a crisis, I calm down. For whatever reason, I'm able to focus day to day stressors that people think absolutely nothing of can flatten me.
It's very, very difficult.
And that's why I talk about work, not because I have no life to speak of whatsoever, and works the only thing I've got going. I mean, it's not exactly like that. For the most part, it is, but it's not completely like that. But I think for me, with work, I have structures in place where if something happens, it's happened so many times I have. I have a system, I have rituals to react to that where just without those structures that those rituals, stress has a really bad effect on me.
I got it.
Like like software downloads, that's a really good example. Something goes wrong with a software download that I'm gone, Like my blood pressures skyrocketing, my heart rates up to one hundred and seventy five beats permitted, just sitting there, just sweating, and you know, it's just basically not being able to log into the Wi Fi and the cafe. It's not a life or death situation, but it has that impact on me.
So what do you do then, Like when you're imploding in the cafe next to your cappuccino because there's no internet, what do you do?
Well, one, I apologize to the police officers. I try to be very respectful and just obey the commands when they show it. Now, what I do is sometimes I'll just have to change my environment. The times I'll just power through it. When I've had people around me on my team, like ian Ian O'Dwyer. I don't know how many of your listeners are familiar with those.
Yeah, people know od. He's been on a bunch We love od.
Od would just grab me and shake me and say something absolutely ridiculous and absurd, and I would merge that laughing. You know, my wife will just calm down. Sometimes it doesn't work when you're not calm and you have somebody telling you calm.
Down, calm down.
Other times she'll like talk me through it. So having people around me that kind of know what's happening is my response, but it's not a big deal. Sometimes that helps me get my equally bring them back.
It's definitely. I don't know. Is it a trit is it a skill, is it a whatever?
It is a programmed response, like an unconscious response. Being able to become a person who's good in the middle of uncertainty, is you know, an unpredictability, which is life like I think work for a lot of us is somewhat predictable and repetitious, and you know, we kind of know what's coming. There's a lot of familiarity and consistency.
But away from work, like where we're not in control sometimes and it's not a stable environment and we're around different people and there's a lot of moving parts that we are not in control of, like being able to be in that kind of situation and cope, you know, and be alright with whatever happens. I mean, that's is that something that you think if do you think that's innate or do you think that's something that's trainable or neither or both.
I was just thinking about the incause I'm a little bit bobby in some ways. In some instances I thrive under pressure far more. And then in some instances I think that and I go I create pressure that I capitulate under. Sometimes it's the self created pressure which I create. So I'm trying to unpack that in my head.
I'm like, yeah, that's very good self awareness.
Like a lot of people not say, like even this question what part of the problem am I? And that's not a self loathing question, that's just a clever question. That's a self awareness question because nearly, I mean not nearly. I would say every person at some stage is the problem in their own situation. Like, I'm definitely the problem many times in whatever's going on. If I'm not the problem, I'm part of the problem. So for you to figure out and identify it that you create your own stress,
that is a really good start. I mean, because you can't change what you're not aware of, and you can't change what you won't.
Own up to.
So being able to do that, Yeah, what are your thoughts on that?
Roubt to me?
I wonder if it's a learned behavior, like have you just not learned to manage your stress you haven't practiced stress management? Or does it have something to do with neurobiology or both? Because understanding what meaning you attach to it, I think directly corresponds with the efficacy of the strategy you developed. So let's think the Walter Michelle study, for example, in the nineteen sixties group of very young kids in
the room, let's say, averaging about five years old. Research just says you can have one marshmallow right now, I'm just going to put this in full view right in front of you or I'm going to step out of the room for a bit. If you can wait until I come back, you can have two marshmallows, double the reward. A lot of kids despite their greatest effort. It wasn't lack of trying, wasn't lack of discipline or willpower. Some kids had to sit on their hand to stop them
from like taking the marshmallow. Some kids lick the marshmallow, smell the marshmallow. It's just like do we everything? But they just did not have the capacity to wait until the researcherer returned. So you ask yourself a five years old, how much of that is a learned behavior? Like how much of these kids learned about discipline strategies? And obviously the kids that were able to delay gratification when they followed them, they did a lot better in life and
scholastic aptitude assessments than the kids that couldn't wait. And that makes sense. But also you have to look at what are the variables that are not accounted for? So what was the socioeconomic status of all of those kids within that study? Because I could tell you when you're growing up in a house where food is scarce or food will be taken away from you. If you don't eat it instantly, you're not going to have the same level of self regulation, especially at five years old.
So what exactly is causing that?
Phineas Gauge is another brilliant example, probably one of the most disciplined, organized, like upstanding individual rules that you could possibly imagine, has an accident with a tamping iron, goes through his eye, out through his brain, lose this total ability of self regulate. He becomes literally unemployable for obvious reasons. So how much of a behavior change strategy or discipline would to help Phineas Gauge. So if if it's a problem with my prefrontal lobes, which I know it is, well,
my approach is going to be different. I'm not going to double down and try harder, because that's going to send me in the opposite direction I want to go. For me, it might be I'm going to ask myself a serious one. I'm going to do effective labeling, like acknowledge out loud. I have turetts. It's very easy for me to talk to myself in a variety of social situations, what exactly is going on?
What am I feeling I'm going to.
Ask myself questions, because questions cause you to upregulate your prefront of cortex, Like what is actually the problem right now? It doesn't even matter if I can solve it or if that brings any greater level of clarity. Just asking that question causes me to upregulate the parts of my brain that I really need right now that I'm not really tapping into.
So if if you have a broader scope.
Around the definition of why does this happen? I think you have greater diversity in terms of the strategy you choose. And I think that plays along with hope, like when people have hope like I can get better. A lot of that is what is the degree and breadth of agency afforded to you. If I have only one possible solution and that doesn't work, that's not very good for self regulation. But if I have multiple things and it's like, Okay, I try strategy A, it didn't work, well, I have
strategy B because it might be something else. I think that gives you greater sense of hope and adaptability.
So to what extent if there's a big neurobiological influence, like in other words, just the way that our individual brain works like and also other variables like socioeconomic stuff, like when it makes total sense when you go for this kid who doesn't has probably had two marshmallows in his life, the opportunity to have one in the moment versus two down the track, he's going to go for
the one in the moment. If you had a given me the fat twelve year old, I would have eaten the bloke's hand while he was putting it on the table, right, so would I probably would have gone the one as well. That's just me hashtag jumbo. So to what extent then, can we override as not the right word, but work around our genetic and eurobiological disposition or predisposition because we don't want to go, oh, that's just the way that I am.
I have no control. That's just my Brian, that's the way I respond, So just put up with me. Whatever that is.
To what extent can we, you know, create new habits and new operating systems despite how we're wired.
Well, I think most people can. I would agree with you, And even if someone doesn't have a lot of capacity, pretending as if you did is only going to engage you within the rituals and the strategies that elevate whatever capacity you have, so being able, I'm completely hopeless around this. This is probably not a great approach some people. They might be on the other end of that bell curve
where their capacity is greatly diminished. I know, for me, for better or for worse, because sometimes I know I'm frustrating for people to be around. I know that, And what I will do is try to structure or my day and my rituals in advance so I have a
greater capacity. So how I start my day determines how I engage with my day, and it's a big predictor about how I finish my day, which is why living on the road or going out to do a seminar is so beneficial because it puts me in an environment where.
I structure the very first hour or.
Two of my day in a way that helps me. Like so I'll go out and I'll say, Okay, I'm gonna sit down here, I'm going to have this cup of coffee. I'm going to read this material. You know, I'm going to move my body. Movement is critical because movement will decrease the level of stress hormones in your bloodstream, which is very beneficial the nature euretic peptides that are produced by the heart whenever you're engaged in movement. So
engaging a movement frequently intermittently that works. You know, asking yourself questions. What's three questions I'll ask myself as I start to feel not like if I go from let's say seven is a complete meltdown. What happens when I start feeling it like three and four?
What can I.
Interject and X myself at that point? And do do I even need to deal with this? I think sometimes what makes a crisis a crisis is it's imminent, this urgency involved. But a lot of times it's not like we'll read an email and we'll think, oh, this is a crisis. But I know I've done this, and I
know we know people who have done this. I don't know, maybe intimately, but if I responded to that email an hour later or a day later, there would have been zero consequences and it only would have made my response better, and the outcome and the experience for everyone involved would be much much different. I know I've stressed out people I work with because I try to multitask come on a break, Oh, let me just answer that email. And it's like, okay, Nimrod, did you even read the email?
And that was like totally not the response. Wow, maybe there's a better time to do this. And I can compartmentalize all of my emails one or two times in the day. And I think when you do that, there's a lot of fear because we live in a world that expects an immediate response. But what I learned, as you've probably learned, when you're on a plane, especially if you were traveling when they didn't have Wi Fi on
every flight, you can't respond. When you're up in front of a room for the next four hours, you can't respond. And when you can't respond, ninety nine percent of the time people.
Do adapt to that.
They learn, Okay, this person's not going to respond within five minutes. It might be five hours. So I think these things like compart mentalization and structuring and avoiding multitasking and giving yourself like every hour ninety minutes a little bit of downtime and just get up and move and change the environment that you're confined within. I think all of those things matter quite a bit.
Do you how good do you see? This is not a loaded question. This is a curious question.
How good do you think you are at understanding other people's perspective? You know, like that kind of theory of mine stuff, understanding how other one, how someone else is in the moment with you, not agreeing, not aligning, but just having an awareness of what's going on for them.
Now.
I range from below average too well above average. And it's context dependent. Like let's say you and I met at a coffee shop and we were just having a conversation.
It's very likely that I would be in my own head.
It's very likely that you know, I would be excited because I like you, I like talking to you. I like coffee. So it's a lot of things that I'm enjoying.
So what do you like more?
Mail coffee? I'm not in a little bit just out of interest.
While we talking cappuccino a lot, we're just talking about a long black. I need to talking about a flat wat oh flat white?
Am I describing myself now? Or a coffee?
Anyway? Carry on?
Carry So let's say let's say I'm in an environment where I like things equally and one thing's not better than the other thing.
Yeah, I probably would.
I'm in my head, and I have a very hard times reading people. If I went in there and you said, Bobby, I need to talk to you about someday there's something on my mind, and I was intentional, and I walked in there completely listening and focused. I believe that my ability to read another person conversationally it is rather good. And the reason why I say that is because again, not to go back to work, but my instructors.
I'm working with a coach right now.
I just got out of a year long class on advanced coaching. My clients, one thing I hear consistently.
Is your ability to.
Encapsulate what I'm saying and reflect it back to me, where I have a greater understanding of what I just said, what it meant, the experience of it, and why I said it just dramatically deepens. And I've heard that from so many people where they say, okay, when it comes to coaching, you know, different people excel in different areas. Empathetic reflection is your superpower.
Can you not talk about coaching today? We've got in trouble. Can you talk about something else? This will be our fourth time this year. Can you not talk about coaching?
I hope she's not listening to this code.
She's definitely listening. She's definitely listening. It's like your safety in it. It's like your safety in it.
If I have a question for you when you're with I mean, you're a communicator, and you're a coach, and you're a speaker, and you're all the stuff, Like you're in front of people all the time, you're on a mic all the time.
How much of.
When you are one on one with somebody is about paying attention to what they're not saying. Do you have an awareness of that? Or you are one hundred Are you one hundred percent kind of just channeled into the words or do you have a bigger than words awareness in the moment?
What does that mean? How do you operationalize that?
Increasingly so increasingly so, I have an awareness on a lot more than that. And that has come through the comfort of not springing to answers and not springing to being giving advice or nutting things out in the moment, but just really actively listening and considering and taking things away and allowing it to percolate. And I think when you jump in and make something of what you're hearing straight away in the moment, you almost I was gonna say,
cock block. That's a bit rude, isn't it. You almost cock block yourself from taking it away and thinking about it really deeply, because I know when I listen.
There's an analogy for you that might be the name of the episode fuck you, but it's true.
For me. It's like, if I just listen, I find when I walk away, it just percolates and I think and I consider, and I come up with some really great I don't know, perspectives or questions or things to think about.
For me, I'm of course I'm interested in what people are saying, but I'm always cognizant of the fact that what they're saying might be, I say, might a smoke screen or a story or a pr exercise, you know what I mean. It's like, it's not that I don
trust them. I'm just I'm like, I'm not sure I'm getting all the story or maybe even the important part of the story, and so I'm trying to without being what's the word inappropriate or untrustworthy or or distrusting, I should say, I'm just trying to figure out what's really going on, especially with people for whom you know, there's some big shit going on in their life, and trying to trying to read between the lines and trying to trying to deduce, like what are the actual Like I
know what you're telling me the issues are, but I'm not sure that they are the issues you know. And that's of course, this is like, you know, this is delving into that space of what's being said that isn't
actually being said. But I think I think try, you know, being able to understand that people people that way, and of course I get it wrong and we all get it wrong, and I fuck up, and I assume things that are flawed, of course, but having that bigger than words awareness, like I'm more interested in I'm interested in what you're saying, but I'm interested in understanding you beyond
your words. I'm interested in what's going on with your body and your energy and your facial expressions and your responses and your behaviors over time.
I want to see what you do, because what you do tells me who you are more than what you say. I want to see what you do over time, not in a judgmental way, in a curiosity way, so I can help you because your behavior, your choices, your lifestyle, all that stuff, how you typically are. That's a lot of information for me. What you're telling me in this thirty minute chat not so much. But maybe it's the synthesis of all of that, Bobby, like what people are
saying and what people are not saying. That gives us maybe a more comprehensive understanding so that we can help people or serve people.
Do conversationally share your observations with people.
Yeah, I do.
I do when it's appropriate, And but there are things. I mean, you know this when I'll often sit with somebody and the sense that I'm getting is that they're insecure and they're trying to impress me.
Well, I'm not going to say that.
You know, but but I'll I'll I'll note that, or they're fearful, or they're uncomfortable. I might just say, how are you feeling? I might just go, are you okay? How's this for you? How's this sitting here with me? How's that for you? And sometimes I'll go, honestly, I'm nervous. I go, that's cool. I go, that's not the worst state to be in, and that's you know, so, and
then we just go from there. Rather than pretending that nothing's going on and speaking from a platform that's not really authentic.
So yeah, yeah, I think that.
But I think with all of this, you know, communication, connection, building rapport, us to respect all of that stuff as everyone knows that it's listening and us three know. It's not like, oh well, here's the five step plan. So this is how we build trust. Well, no, with somebody else. With one person, we're building trust that way with somebody else, that's going to create a problem.
I think I always think about how little we really know our emotional states, Like I've been looking into it heaps lately, because that's part of what I'm talking about lately, is our capacity to understand what am I feeling? What are these emotions? What's this sense nection? Like beyond bad, beyond I feel shit and sad like what a So when we talked before about me in a state of pressure, I've been sitting with it in my mind and going and in that moment, I thought, you know what I
think it is. Maybe what has my attention right now is it's that thing about trust for me. So I think that I have a story that I don't trust myself. So whether it's self imposed stress or stress where I am in need of making a decision or a choice, I go into the fight flight than crazy. You know, like, oh, Tiff doesn't make good decisions. She's made some really poor decisions in the past, and so she doesn't have the
capacity to recognize good decisions and choices. So if there's a decision here, panic town, and then I stay in that spiral.
I've never thought that before.
I just knew that. I just know that sometimes a high state of arousal in chaos, I perform like a superstar and I'm like fucking the best, and then sometimes I'm creating myself and I'm chaotic and I'm useless. So finding out what is the emotion, what is the what gets me in that state, and what is this what is the metaphor, I can start to recognize that it might be happening that might answer a question there.
I think also for you and for everyone. But like when I think of you, right, you've been through some trauma, so there's a bit of shit that's gone on in your background. You have this propensity to get angry, which I don't, right, which is just do you know what I mean? But there are lots. It's like if you haven't eaten, that affects you emotionally, Like if you're hungry and you don't eat food, I don't want to be around you.
Nobody wants to be around you.
Once you've had food, then hit me up, right, But before that, just fuck off and go and find a cake, right like and then with Bobby, they're a different vari With me, there are different things. It's like, I know that I spent a lot of my life trying to get approval on validation and acceptance through what I looked like because I looked so terrible or I thought I looked so terrible when I was a kid. You know, we all have issues, like and I still I still reckon.
There's a low level insecurity and neediness in myself that's around my appearance. Even though I understand all this stuff. Do I ever want someone to do? I like it when someone says something great, of course I do. Does it make me? Does it affect me in a positive of course it does?
You know.
So I think being able to recognize all of these good and bad or just not necessarily either good or bad, but just relevant.
Kind of aspects of who we are and.
Then being able to recognize and do something with that rather than judging it or pigeonholing ourselves. That gives us a platform to move forward positively and go, ah, this is what I'm doing, you know, yeah, and saying because I was insecure, somebody would go I did X. Part of me would want to go, I did three X, you know, because I want to be impressive. But just recognizing before that fucking comes out of my mouth, what is that about?
Like what?
You just dive into their X and tell them how great their X is before you start. In fact, don't talk about your three X, talk about their one X like it's the best thing ever, and make it about them, not you. I still have to consciously do that. I still have to mind my mind in real time and mind my ego and mind my insecurity. What about you, Bobby.
One attribute that I have found to be helpful that I don't think a year ago I would have pleased as much value on Not because I didn't value it, because it just it wasn't something front of mind. It's curiosity, because curiosity takes me out of my own head. And one of the reasons why I'm in my own head council is because I struggle with a lot of anxiety. I'm always anxious, Like right now, I'm anxious. I have not a reason to be, but I'm anxious, and I
carry that with me throughout the day. And I'm also easily distracted. Not only just curiosity give me a focal point. It gets me out of my head and it puts me square into the world with other things, with other people. And that's enormous, And I know that a lot of times people have conversations it's like, oh, well, my environment would be so much better, but my boss, my colleagues, the people I work with, and all of that might be true, But where does that leave you? If it
falls into the category of beyond your control? I think it's like, Okay, what am I curious about? And connecting curiosity to affirmation can work wonders. And what I mean by that is, let's say you're at work, no matter what job you do, and you have like the worst colleague in the world. There are things that that individual is going to do that or right, Let's say if it's only twenty percent of the time, eighty percent of
the time, they're an absolute muppet. But if you're curious affirmatively like okay, well, let me notice their strength, let me notice what catch them doing something right, and then you bring that up like okay, wow, Tiff, you know when you took that initiative and you know you took out all the rubbish, kind of cleaned up the workspace. We didn't have to do that, nothing got backed up. I really appreciate that. I noticed you do that frequently. And it's it's not like, oh, great job, Tiff. That
doesn't mean anything. It's noticing something specific, making a generous assumption around the intentions underneath it, and how it impacts others positively. Well, it might have zero impact on Tiff. Well, the first time I say that, she might be like okay, yeah, like kiss off, like I don't care what you think. But over time she might try to now live up to that because let's say I say that, somebody else says that, okay, wow, that's an aspect of TIFF's personality
that's valuable to other people. So we I try to bridge that gap and just like through cognitive dissonance, try to become more consistent with the person that we would rather be and not have that other disruptive aspect show up as frequently, and you start to be the type of person that feels better about yourself because you're looking
for that and you're someone who builds people up. And when you start to model that culturally, you create a culture of curiosity and mutual affirmation, whether that is at in the kitchen where you work, or whether that's at the dinner table, or whether that's at the pub. Socially, I think that's something that is very constructive for all parties involved, and that and it puts you outside of your head.
What do you think? I want this from both you? Who are an idea from both of you?
What are the.
Pros and cons of being vulnerable, like publicly vulnerable? Way you maybe open the door that normally you only open that door personally, where you let people into what you think or feel or not in a kind of a pretty comfortable you know. Oh look at me, everyone, I'm being humble, like to me when you like public humility is really not really you know, but that real raw.
No.
I actually part of me would rather you didn't know this, but I think you knowing this about me might help you like that there's still stuff I'm sure I don't share, but I try to tell everybody you know, or I try to share as much of me as I can so that people realize I'm definitely not special, not spectacular, not gifted, not brilliant, and it might encourage them to try to What level do you think being vulnerable for you will start with you, Tiff, is a good or bad thing?
Are their pros and cons?
Yeah? Absolutely, I think there's a lot of pros because I think it's when one my biggest lessons. I think being vulnerable was probably one of my biggest challenges, and so I think emotional depth and depth in relationships and depth in self awareness are all pretty big pros for me. Like I don't think when we're not vulnerable. When I'm not vulnerable, I lose sight of who I really am
because we start to wear that mask. We start to or I start to, I start to be a version of myself, and then I forget who I am, and then I so I lose touch with that ability to really know myself. Obvious cons are we're open to get hurt where obvious cons are if the practice of vulnerability becomes a thing we just do, are we doing that with the right people. Are we using it as a as a tool or a or a weapon of sorts. You know, I've heard people use the word weaponizing vulnerability,
almost using it to keep people away. So I think it's yeah, there's definitely pros and cons. I think for me, there's a lot of con sorry, a lot of pros.
Yeah, Bobby, I feel like you're pretty vulnerable. I feel like you open the door pretty wide.
And it does depend because to me, semantics are important. We say vulnerability, what do we mean? And I think a lot of people because there's so much written in the work environment about what vulnerability is, it doesn't mean walking around like a Hallmark card and sharing every emotion and thought in your head. I don't think that's vulnerability at all. I think vulnerability is acting courageously in terms
of being honest within the context. So when I'm with Amy, my wife, and let's say we're having a situation or a marriage, and it relates back to something that happened to me in my upbringing, and therefore I show up this way, well, that is a contextually appropriate and very deep form of vulnerability. I'm not going to share the details of my abuse in a board meeting and well, you know when I look at this pie chart, what
I think about is when I was six. Yeah, that's probably that's probably not going to go over very well in that meeting. But we're a great example is Volkswagen, massive company, global reputation. It all comes crumbling down very very quickly because they cheated on their emissions. So they so basically they were trying to utilize software to fool the emissions machines and they got caught. Now why did that happen? Because they were in an environment where you
couldn't be vulnerable. If I'm an engineer, vulnerability is saying, Okay, we are running into a stumbling block and we don't know how to fix it, and I don't have the answer for it, and I'm going to need a team of people to try to sort this out because we cannot move forward on this project where we are today. It's like when you're sitting in that meeting, or when you're sitting in that social situation and you know that you saying something is constructive, you know it needs to
be said, and you don't say it. That's a lack of vulnerability, and I think that's damaging. That's damaging to any type of relationship, whether it's an intimate relationship, whether it's a social or professional relationship. But vulnerability, to me has contextual levels. You don't want to walk in and be this complete open book, and you don't want to
do that with absolutely everyone. Because I heard something, I forgot where I heard it, but it was so beautiful because it related to something that I struggle with, boundaries. Not saying I have boundary issues, so I don't respect pople's boundaries, but for some people, boundaries become far more important than other people. And what I heard was boundaries are not things that you set up in your life to keep people out. Boundaries are things you set up
in your life so you can keep people in. And I thought, oh, that is beautiful, And I think everybody has the right to identify what are the boundaries I need to keep people close to me, you know, and keep my relationships productive.
That's deep, dude, that's deep. Yeah, No, no, I like it.
I like it very much.
I wanted to talk about one more thing and then we'll wind up, and I'm interested in We kind of touched on it before, like when I was talking about, you know, getting approval and validation and acceptance through appearance. It seems like, again, this is just my perception in twenty twenty five, It's never been more kind of prevalent. I guess this like who I am as what I
look like? Who I am as my body or my abs or my pretty face or my handsome face or my you know, and that identity intertwined with my Instagram, my my post. That The reason I thought of this was I was literally scrolling this morning and.
A thing came up, doesn't matter. It was a person. It was a.
What do you call it, an influencer of sorts, and I looked at their page and essentially it was a thousand photos.
Of them, like their face, their body, they face, their body, they face their body, body face, body face, different location, different outfits, same body, same face.
And it was honestly ninety nine percent here's me, take a photo of me, putting up a photo of me.
I'm and I know this might sound judga or I don't mean it too.
I'm just I'm just thinking, what, like, how does that go for somebody over the long term when okay, you're not you know, like looks fade, bodies fade, you know, like is this, Okay, I know this is a philosophical and a bloody I don't know, a moral, bloody conundrum, is it? Like I just and I don't care about that. It's like, by the way, this person very attractive, all
of that, well done, You're amazing. But I just think about emotionally and mentally and socially, and I think about their health and their wellbeing, like if all of a sudden they don't look like that, or all of a sudden, there's that something happens where this entire sense of who I am in the world is built on these thousand photos of me that I put up.
What do your thoughts around that, either of you?
I've never had to contend with the fact that you know, one day my extraordinary good looks are going to fate And how will that cause me to interact with the world? How will that impact me? That has never been my problem, So for me, not really sure. I could say. One thing that pops into my mind is an ex girlfriend.
Of mine and.
She looked like a nineteen forties like I do you call it starle it?
I don't know what the word is.
Forgive me if that Let's go with movie staff at nineteen forties movie star, like she just looked like that archetype and she was stunning.
For her looks were everything, And she.
Was an actor for a period of time and she was doing really well, and she was appearing in like multiple sitcoms, and then you know, she got injured and disappeared for a couple of years, which is the kiss of death at that level.
So that that.
Caused her to carry a lot of resentment. But everything was about her physical appearance, and you would look at this person on the surface and think, Wow, this person's self obsessed. It's all about her. But then I remember we were talking about an incident that she had so her older sister. She idolized her older sister and her older sisters like one of those rebels and always getting into trouble. But as a kid, you look and gone, my older sister's so cool. You know, she can do anything.
And they were in a changing room at one point and her sister looked at her side profile and said, oh god, you know you were so ugly from that angle. My god, your side profile is ugly. And that thing
stuck with her for the rest of her life. It injured her so deeply and she's talking about this and she's getting worked up, and like, I don't know if she's superficial or I don't know if she never realized Okay, that was a comment that was hurtful, and she spent her whole life trying to develop a strong suit to
work around that. To tell you the truth, the way her sister said it, and as directly as she said it, I think there's even a chance that her sister was using that as sarcasm, Like her sister was probably looking at her and going, Wow, she's gorgeous.
God, you're ugly.
But given her age and that was her sister, she probably didn't take it that way and it caused damage. So yeah, I wonder in any case, because I'm always wondering, Okay, not what is somebody doing, but why, like where does that come from? But if that becomes my whole identity, what happens when that does fade?
Yeah?
Ok, because I just talk about vulnerability. I know that earlier in my life I didn't feel I looked like everybody else. I knew I didn't look like everybody else because of how people.
Reacted to me when they saw me.
It was like, oh, okay, all right, this kid's different. I got to regain composure, and it wasn't just kids, it was adults. And then when I got to a point where it's like, oh, I feel like I feel like I look normal. I just wanted to look normal. And I think if something happened where I no longer look normal, I believe it would affect me because it would bring back all of that pain from when I didn't look normal and people weren't very kind about that.
So I think the short answer is, if that becomes your identity and that's a point of massive insecurity, it could be brutal.
He says the short answer after a seven minute monologue. Tiff, No, we love your monologues. TIF you, what do you think about this?
I don't know this. I guess it's always been around, but just it's interesting.
I caught up with a friend recently and their two daughters were with us, and one of them ends up eleven years old, flipping through her phone showing me and it was just selfie after selfie after selfie in the mirror, in the mirror, and I thought about it, like, isn't it interesting These kids, they're really young and they're just taking photos of themselves, like just hundreds the photos are standing in the mirror looking at the same thing weirdly,
usually with the phone in front of their face, which is even more curious. But then I think about, you know, when I was first in fitness and I used to put a lot of selfies up, but also I never felt like I looked like I'd put self like when I had a ripping six pack and I'd put photos of that ripping six pack up, and if people saw them in the next day and we're like, show me your abs, so I'd be like, fucking no, Like I
don't look like that as well. So there's it's I'm curious, what is what drives humans to react in this way about the vision of ourself and also how connected is it really to the reality of how we feel and what we believe is us and are those two things connected Now it's a little bit like thinking about body image and eating disorders. They're not always connected to the visual aspect. There's deeper behavioral drivers that make people do those behaviors.
I think also the real world reality is that away from this philosophical behind the micro microphone conversation about you know, you're more than a body, and we love you, and you know which is all true? You know who am I beyond that? And emotionally and spiritually and mentally and sociologically and da da dah. You know I'm But out in the world, people are rewarded for beauty, aren't they.
If you're beautiful, life's easier in many ways, anyway, like more doors open if you're a six foot three guy and you're jacked. And you'll ask Chris Hemsworth how hard life is. Not that he doesn't work hard, not that he's not talented, But if I walk down the street with that motherfucker, I look like Shrek. You know, it's like he's good on him. But you know, there's an advantage when you're pretty or when you're handsome more. And of course that's not to say that all of these
people don't work hard or don't deserve it. But you know, the idea of all of what we're talking about is, I think it's true. I think we're much more than just an appearance. But having said that, you're certainly rewarded if you look a certain way in the real world. For one of better term. Beyond these conceptual conversations, on podcasts, you know, and it's I think.
That's where kids learn this. They're like, well, you know who do they look up to? Who are the people that they're youngsters? Listen to me?
Fuck, I sound old but idolizing. You know, they're super pretty, they're super handsome, they're super talented, they're super popular, they're super jacked, they're all these things. You know, not everyone, of course, but the majority. I was talking to a couple that I know, and the wife was talking to me about their eleven year old and she said to me, do you know what she spends all her money on? And I'm thinking, I don't know, video games, da da da, And she goes make up.
All her money goes on makeup. She's eleven.
I go, she goes, oh yeah, like from nine.
To ten, they're wearing makeup and they're watching how to put on make up videos and they've got all these influencer makeup influencers that they follow and they're ten. I'm like, God, I'm so out of touch. I don't know anything. What were you spending your money on when you were eleven?
Not make up?
Bobby?
How do people connect with you? How do they find you? And listen to you and become part of the Bobby Capucco Experience.
The Bobby Capuccio Experience. Okay, yes, I think I think that's that's a lot to sign up for. But you could find me at LinkedIn. You could find me at Robert Capuccio dot com, the self help Antido dot.
Com, Perfect and Tiffany and Cook Roll with the Punches and Tiffcook dot Com and Sculpture.
Around the Shadows of typ wherever I can Bunny.
Just like, just like the ninja that she is, will say goodbe I fear of course. Thanks Bobby, thanks Tip, Thanks everyone, Thank you everyone,