I get a team, it's harps. It's it's Nicole, not little. It's definitely not little, it's Laddell. So don't fuck that up, right because she gets very angry. And I did just quadruple check that before we went live after knowing her for twenty years.
That you know when you you know, when you have a thought and you think, maybe, what if I've.
Been getting someone's pronunciation wrong for twenty years? But I hadn't, So that's good. But imagine if your name wasn't Nicole but rather Nikola or something like that.
No, then it would probably be Nikola.
Well, no, it's got an e on the end.
Nicola little, or it could be let's fuck that off. That's a ridiculous conversation. How are you?
I'm good, I'm good. How are you?
I'm good? How's the how's the PhD landscape? Are you? Are you coming up for oxygen every now and then? Are you drowning in a sea of academia?
You?
Okay? What is the update?
Well?
Today, because you know it changes, but today and this week, I'm at that point where my to do list is so long that I'm spending more time writing a to do list than I'm actually doing anything, and then you kind of get halfway through something and then you think, shit, I've got to do something else, and then you know when you just get kind of frozen in that overwhelmed.
So that's where I'm at this week. But I'm pretty sure that tomorrow morning I'll get up and do some project management and get myself organized again and I'll be back on track.
But yeah, that's where it's at the moment.
I have this little ritual every morning which is pursuant to your comments just then you're on it, which is and you probably heard me say this.
But I don't say it exactly like this, but it's a form of this.
In terms of what I want to get done today, what needs to have my attention, in terms of what I want to do be create change today, that's my little thing. What needs to have my attention, what's the best use of my time, what's the best use of my emotional energy, what's the best.
Use of my focus?
And it kind of yeah, because you can start the day with twenty different things that you could actually pay attention to, and then at the end of the day you've done nothing nothing.
Well, yeah, that's how That's pretty much how the last couple of weeks have gone. And I'm at that stage where there's, you know, five different balls in the air. So I've got I'm interviewing participants for one study, and I'm getting ethics approval for the next study. I've been asked to be part of the Gender based Violence Task Force at the UNI, so I've got to do some stuff for that, and so yeah, so it's all good, but.
It's a lot.
It is.
Well, let's talk. I mean, we always go what are we going to talk about? We just end up chatting. Well, let's talk a little bit about efficiency. I feel like, you know, we've spoken before on this show about the busy, the busy badge. How are you? Oh, what's up busy? How you going busy?
How have you been busy? How are things busy?
It's like it's like a social kind of a trophy, and we take pride in how busy we are, and which doesn't necessarily correlate with efficient or productivity or effectiveness.
You know, I think that.
Trying to figure out, like what are my priorities, what needs to like, what are the one what's the one, two, three?
Four?
Things today that really need to be prioritized because it is so easy, especially if you are like probably you and me, which is you know, you've got work, you've got study, you've got a life, you've got training, you've got lots of other commitments. We're both in a similar position at the moment. I'm just stumbling towards the finished line, as everyone knows. But but there are just every day
you could do. I could actually do forty hours of work a day if there was forty hours in a day and I have the energy, which I do not, but I could easily fill forty hours because every night when I go to bed, there's still a bunch of stuff, not not half done, but there's still stuff to do tomorrow. And you think even even down to like sometimes this is bad, but like sometimes two days will go by and I go, I haven't thought about my mum or dad for two days. I mean, they're always floating around
my consciousness, you know. Yeah, I think I'm a fucking terrible son, you know. Or there's that thing that like I got a new dry dryer wash clothes dry the other day when I say the other day four weeks ago, and I put the old one outside my side door next to one of my motorbikes, and I went, I'll
get rid of that in the next couple of days. Well, that's still sitting there next to the motorbike, and it may have things growing on it very soon, because you know when you go, yeah, that's not a good use of my time today. That's not a problem. That can just sit there, And I really want to make sure it's not still sitting there at Christmas as some kind of ornaments in the garden.
But yeah, I think that being prudent.
With our time and our energy based on what we need to get done is kind of pretty paramount when you're trying to especially do a PhD like you or create some kind of outcome, you know, be it in business or something else.
Yeah, and that's interesting because I've noticed a habit that I've had and I think I've had it for a long time, but I catch myself doing it now and I stop myself. Is that when I start to get a little bit overwhelmed for some stupid reason, I start adding things to the list just to make myself feel worse.
Like it's like, oh shit, I haven't even washed my car for months, but I didn't care that I hadn't washed my car, but suddenly that, on top of everything else, is appriarately And so I don't know why we do that, but I managed to catch myself doing that now because it's almost like you're deliberately catastrophizing it and making it bigger, almost to justify some level of anxiety. So I catch myself doing that now, and I go, do you really care that your car's not wash?
I don't really care about it. Does it really matter in the big scheme of things that your cars not clean?
No? Really, And in terms of in terms of my priorities right now, is that going to move the needle on anything that really? No? So you know, let's make sure it's got air in the tiers and petrol. Let's make sure it's not falling apart. But if it's got a bit of dust and dirt and bird poop, it's probably probably not going to derail your life.
Yeah.
For those who don't know Nicole, let me do just a quick rewind. So we've known each other for a long time. She lives in the Sunshine State. You live in the Sunshine State. I don't know why I'm talking about you in the third person, and that do you know what? You probably don't, but that chat that we have where you were basically unpacking, where your life was falling apart, and you just you ended up starting UNI.
I don't know what number that was, we might post it in the show notes, but where the last thing on your mind was really that you would become an academic. I think it's like like, and by the way it works out, you're really good at academia. You're a really good student, you're a really good teacher, you're a really
good researcher. But it was almost fortuitous that you just ended up in this space now where at fifty two, kind a halfway or a bit, I don't know, vaguely halfway through your PhD where and you started your undergrad degree which became an undergrad and an honors degree. You started that when you were forty three and twenty sixteen, and then you started your PhD.
Too well, I know, last year in March, so almost like a year and a half ago, right.
But I love that because so many of our listeners are summer in the ballpark of kind of thirty five to sixty, and it's really nice to hear somebody who's maybe not shout out to our twenty three year olds. We love our twenty three year olds, but it's nice to here somebody who's not twenty three, who's excelling at fifty two. And I know you wouldn't bring this up,
but I'm bringing it up. You just got you just did you just win an award or get a grant or you just got a whole bunch of money that you can use to clean your car?
What happened?
Yeah, So my current self is thinking my past self profusely, because one afternoon I just kind of sat here and looked for external scholarships.
I came across this scholarship that was opening in July this year. This was probably about six or twelve months ago, and I put it in my diary to follow up when it opened. So it came up in my calendar. I had a look at it. I said to my supervisor, do you think I should apply for this? And she said, yeah, you would probably meet the criteria, And so I put in the application, not really giving it too much thought, just hoping something would happen. And it was a ten
thousand dollars scholarship. I got got the phone call week before last to say that I was the lucky recipient.
So wow, congrats, that's amazing. Yeah, how long did you feel if you did like you didn't really belong in academia or like something of a fraud.
Maybe you never felt that, I'm sure you did at the start.
How long before you felt like, because this is very common experience, the people go into like into a new place, doing a new thing, they feel unqualified, they feel unworthy, they feel all of these, you know, fear based emotions.
How long before I felt.
Kind of like, I know I can do this and I belong here, this is where I'm meant to be.
I once I it kind of has just like it's the the feeling of competence just gets stronger and stronger. Likes I as kind of as the evidence starts to show up that I'm okay in this space. But I think I think I was still imposter syndrome.
Well I still do imposter syndrome.
But I think I was still kind of doubting myself, especially through honors, because that's.
A really that's a tough year.
But I think once I got into the PhD, like I got accepted, and you know, the feedback that I got was because you know they do when you apply for a PhD, they put you in an order of merit, and because I worked in the research center for AGES, I kind of got the feedback that I was quite high in the order of merit.
To be accepted into the pH d.
Which really just blows me away because the type of research we do, we're not really big stats heavy, and stats was never my favorite stuff. But you know, I if something comes up and you know, look, I know I know where to go to find the answer and to work it out.
But yeah, So to answer your question, I think once I got.
Accepted into the PhD, I thought, oh, well, they think I can do it, so maybe I can. Because that's that's not just you know, someone going you know, someone that I know giving.
Me a position.
It's based on a whole heap of criteria and in an order of merit, and I.
Did really well.
So you have to earn your place, and I'd earned my place. So I think that was when I really started to realize that this was something that I could do well.
Isn't it funny how we tend to almost value what others think of us more than what we we go do you think I could do this? Oh? Yeah, yeah, I'm like, Oh, I must be able to because Nicole said I could. Like, you know, it's a really like and looking for even worse than that, looking general terms for approval and acceptance from people who actually don't even get a fuck about us, rather than rather than approval from ourselves. You know, I'm so good at not approving
of me. I'm so good even now. But I have awareness around it, so I recognize what's going on.
Yeah, do you think that you and I were talking?
Sorry interrupt, but you and I were talking about Oh, let's talk about that.
Why do you think that is? Why do we pay attention to what other thinks of us more than we do? Like?
Why do we need approval from maybe people who don't know us and sometimes people who like may not maybe don't hate us, but don't really care about us.
But nonetheless we value that Well, I don't know.
I think there's there.
It'll be a combination of a heap of things and personal experience as well. I think there is definitely a healthy amount of self doubt that we have to have, like I because I think if we were if we thought that we knew it all, then there's nothing to learn and we're just obnoxious and hard to be around.
So okay, I hit the brakes. Does it have to be self doubt or can it just be self awareness?
I don't know, awareness, yeah, or a level of.
I want to say humility, But it's like that. One of my favorite theories is the Dunning Krueger effect.
You know that when you're an expert, but you're not an.
Expert because you don't know enough about the subject to know that you don't know enough.
Oh you know, this is what I get from people. Right, I'm not an expert at anything, but you know, if I do know a lot about anything, it's about exercise programming, right, And people when people who don't know shit about exercise come and tell me stuff, and that sounds very arrogant.
I don't mean.
They don't know how little they know and they're talking. They're talking to someone with four decades of experience, owning gyms, working in gym's writing programs, working with elite athletes, and then they start to tell me about this thing that they don't even understand themselves.
And I don't want to.
Shoot them to bits, but it's it's a really observ I'm sure I've done that the other way around to other people who know more than me.
Yeah, I think we've all been there.
But yeah, that's I think when you have that awareness that you don't like I think that's a valuable thing to have. Like, the more I learned, the more I realized how much I don't know. So yeah, so why do we? So your question was why do we do that? I think part of it is nobody wants to be the know it all either, Like, so for me personally, I feel like, and I think a lot of people can relate to this is I probably was aware somewhere in my.
Past that I was pretty clever. Yeah, but maybe being pretty clever didn't really get me be.
Liked or friends or loved or appreciated or people would you know? So, I think I had a fear when I was younger of coming across as a bit overconfident, right, So, because nobody.
Like, so you learn to play small?
Yeah, I learned to play small And I think I did that. And I know I'm not the only I know that's not a unique thing.
But there's something, there's a there's a sweet spot of.
Confidence that that isn't arrogance. There's a sweet spot where you can, like I now know that I've earned my place at the table, but I don't have to There's no badge that goes along with it. There's just this this quiet confidence you know that I can bring something to a conversation or whatever.
But I was afraid to have that before.
I don't know, And maybe it's because I don't look for the external validation as much as I used to.
Yeah, I think that for me, a bit of insecurity, a bit of self doubt, a bit of imposter syndrome keeps me inspired and motivated. Like it keeps me hungry, It keeps me wanting to get better and do better. And I know that sounds cliche, but it actually does. Yeah, I would feel weird if I thought I'm there now like I'm good.
Yeah, I'm the smartest in the room. I'm this, you know. But you know, while you.
Can simultaneously no, look, I'm pretty good at that. I've got some skills that that that's not arrogance, that's just awareness because as you said, there's evidence.
There's data. It's like that whole which I've said before on this show.
You know where I can go you know, like I'm coming to Queensland this week, so Thursday night I'm doing a workshop. Saturday, I'm doing a corporate gig. And you know, when I stand up to do the corporate gig or even the public workshop, I don't know what that will be, but probably somewhere in the thousands of times that I've done a version of that and without any doubt, there will still be some fear, some anxiety, some underlying whispering voice that goes, well, this could be.
The time that you absolutely fuck it all up.
And you know, there's that fearful self doubt or that fear driven kind of in a dialogue that's some kind in some ways destructive and self sabotaging, while also knowing so that's the emotion, but also knowing intellectually, well, I must be pretty good at this because people pay to come and they've come before, and or I get booked
and rebooked by the same organizations. So these two things, like the intellectual understanding that I'm not shit, can coexist with the feeling ah, I am shit, you know, like the one doesn't have to disappear.
So I don't know, I think maybe you're right.
A little bit of self doubt is or a little bit of insecurity or I think as long as it's not fucking crippling or overwhelming, yeah, maybe it keeps us grounded.
Well.
A classic example is next month, I'm going to the Gold Coast to a conference which is it's a stoptimistic violence conference, So it's the it'll be like, the audience will be the DV sector, And my research is it's a.
Novel approach to the problem.
So I'm introducing systems thinking in an area that it's not really been introduced before, and I'm talking to practitioners that are on the ground, and I'm talking about a topic that every single person in that room will be extremely passionate and emotionally.
Tied to in some way.
And I've not been on the ground in the same capacity as they have. So I'm very nervous about I would say nervous.
But I'm very mindful of not coming in.
And going I've got the solution with this systems thinking and really kind of understanding the complexity of the problem from a because I'm going to be a room full of practitioners basically yes, And so I am just quietly shitting myself because I want to make sure that I, you know, introduce this in a way that is sensitive to their experiences as practitioners dealing with some pretty heavy
and complex issues. So yeah, it's that it's I have the confidence in knowing that what I bring to the table, you know, might be useful or it might open up some conversation.
But I also want to make sure that.
I am respectful in the way and conscious in the way that I deliver it, so that I'm not coming and going I've got all the answers to this really really complex problem.
So yeah, that's going to be well.
I think your safety net is your research and your results and your data. It's like, that's not an opinion, that's results. That's what That's not what you think, that's what the research tells us or your research tells us. So being able to present science, you know, that's kind of you're not getting up there thinking saying, I'm not sure about all this, but let me tell you what I think, or let me tell you my experiences or my opinions. So this is a good opportunity for us
to learn a little bit about your research. So just give us a like an aerial overview of what it is, what's the what are you exploring?
And then let us go from there.
So we are.
So I'll tell you a little bit about what systems thinking is first. So systems thinking or systems science is it's a way of making sense of complexity. So the models and frameworks within systems thinking and system science are applied to complex issues and instead of looking at and so when I say systems, it's like, for a good example, is like the healthcare system, the defense force, you know,
the rail transport systems. So anything that we operate within is anything that has rules and regulations and policies and.
Structure and process and all that.
So that's a system, right, And so rather than looking at certain components of a system, systems thinking looks at the whole system as the unit of analysis, and we look for interactions across the system, and we look for leverage points where.
We can implement.
Change for maximum impact for you know, the least amount of effort or expense.
So the system that I'm looking at for my research is it's the use of.
Technology or how technology is used the use of technology for coercive control in the context of intimate partner violence.
Stop stop all right, sorry, just I'm just like how technology hang on ad tech is used for coercive control. Yeah, sorry everybody, I just don't want to show over this because I think it's okay.
So technology facilitated coercive control.
So how give us give us an example, an example.
It can be anything from threat text messages to an intimate partner, all the way to surveillance, GPS monitoring, hacking into accounts, internet banking docsing, which is you know, putting information online, stalking online, stalking, anything anything that uses technology to perpetrate coercive control.
Like threatening to share intimate videos and all that. That was in the news recently. Some who but some couple of people have been where their partners were putting up they broke up, and then that's a really fascinating and I would think bigger than people would think that area, I mean, oh.
Massive, Yeah I I didn't.
Yeah, like even I was surprised at the technology is.
We cannot function without it in our everyday lives, and so it just stands to reason that if someone so we use technology as an extension of our normal behaviors. So if somebody is coercively controlling or is perpetrating abuse,
in a relationship. Then technology is naturally going to be part of that in today's world, and it escalates when relationships end or if someone you know, if victims survivor leaves an abusive relationship, then sometimes what they experienced within the relationship person to person, just the technology becomes the you know, the choice, yeah, to perpetrate abuse, and.
It's it's the problem with it is is it.
Becomes so perpetrators then have this or victim survivors have this sense of omnipresence, so they can't leave the house
without you know, because there's tracking devices on you. You can get a new phone, but as soon as you log in with your Google you know, if the tracking software to your Google account or your iCloud or you know, or you then the device itself is it doesn't matter, it's it's the software you're using and you and you know, trying to find out where the where you be, where it is located is really difficult.
So it's a big problem.
And so my PhD is looking at specifically our the systemic responses to it. So how are we responding when someone is experiencing We call it TFCC for sure. So tech facilitated coursive control. So someone is experiencing TFCC, how are we systemically responding to it, and where are the leverage points in the system that we can enact some change and for some impactful interventions, for better responses to keep people safe.
And I mean, this is and I know this is and I guess with AI, this is like, this is like a wave just cascade. This is like a tsunami of technology that's approaching an unsuspecting town of people, you know, just making their sandwich at the kitchen bench. They don't
know what's coming. But I feel like with AI, that's only going to make the problem bigger, the control and the ability to do horrible shit for people with an agenda easier in a way because now and then tracking those people who are doing that horrible shit, Like, yeah, I feel like the volumes going up on this what are like what is in place currently or some of the things that are in place or maybe being explored to even begin to mitigate or deal with this stuff.
Well at the moment, and you know, so I'm interviewing victim survivors at the moment for the first study because what I want to do first is find out what their experiences are while seeking help, so not so much their experience specifically around the abuse, although you can't talk about the response without talking about the abuse.
But I'm trying to.
Get specifically what sort of help they've received, and it's really varied. And you know, there are some services out there that cost money. There are some that are if you're referred to the right service, you can get grants and things like that to help you. But you know, there are some forensic digital forensic services that will come out and do a sweep of your home or I'll you know, sweep your car. Police have pretty limited knowledge
around the depth. So you know, a policeman can come out and shine a tort around your car and try and find a tracking device, but you really need specialized people to come and really go through your devices and stuff like that.
So there is that.
But the trouble is that that I'm finding talking to victim survivors now is that they either don't have access to that, or they don't know about it, or yeah, it really depends on who they talk to. It's pot lark if you get if you get the right person to talk to you that's going to refer you to
the right services, then you might get some service. But I've got one, you know, one participant who spends all of her income on court fees because she's you know, through the court system with her the family, family and criminal court system with her perpetrator. So she hasn't got the funds to and he's still monitoring her, but she has got the funds too, So it's a it's a big problem.
Yeah.
And also I mean then you throw into that the terror and the sleepless nights and the anxiety, I mean obviously, and yeah, it's just like it's multi layered. There are so many I would imagine, there are so many variables to this, and yeah, and that's right the I would imagine, which is no poor reflection.
On the police.
But firstly, they're under resource in every state in Australia, I feel like, definitely in Victoria. And it's it's where do you start with this, because there's no this is you know, if somebody's punching someone in the face, it's it's immediate, Oh, there's a policeman or woman there, we can deal with it.
You know, here's somebody, you know.
But with stuff like this, there's no there's not even a kind of quick fix, a complicated slow fix.
I would think, well, and we need to move away from the idea of responding to an incident, so which is what you know, Like a couple has a fight, someone gets physical or violent, the police respond to that incident.
So we need to be responding to the pattern of behavior because sometimes you know, and it's complicated and there's you know, there's there's situational couple violence where you know, there's actually no coercive control happening in that relationship, but both parties got had a few too many to drink and they've had an incident, but they don't but there's no ongoing controlling behavior. So you know, that's it's difficult for police to when they respond to a call out.
Are they responding to just a situational couple's violence incident or are they are they stepping into you know, a complex issue of control across the whole relationship.
So yeah, it's can I ask, And I know it's it's baby steps in it's early days and you've just kind of you've just put the key in the car and you're just hitting second gear on the bloody academic.
Highway, right, I know, that, But so can you tell us what you do know now that you didn't, Like, has there been any outcomes? What is your research and it doesn't need to be conclusive or extrapolated across all kind of spectrums, but like, what can you tell us that you now know that you didn't you know a year and a half ago.
Yeah, So, from a systems thinking perspective, we I did my literature review involved having a look. We were looking at factors that influence tech facilitated abuse and what we found applying systems thinking frameworks, what we found was a lot of the research or most of the research has identified factors that influence the behavior at the we call it the lower levels of the system. So it's kind
of like at that perpetrator victim interface. So they're looking at attachment issues or personality traits and things like that. So the most or a lot of the literature is looking at those lower levels, and those factors really are pertaining to behaviors or characteristics of individuals.
But there was very little.
As far as the higher levels, you know, so policing, you know, policy, government, all of those higher levels of the system. There wasn't a lot of factors relating to those higher levels, and the ones that did that we're sitting at those higher levels really related more to responses.
So I was I was wanting.
To look at what enables the abuse, but what we found was anything at the higher.
Levels of the system was really it was the lack.
Of response or the inadequate responses that was enabling the abuse to continue.
So that's why my PhD kind of after.
That literature review and we realized that that was when we realized we really need to look at how we are responding from a systemic because we already know a lot around you know, attachment issues, you know, you know, childhood history, family of origin, history of violence, and you know, we know quite a lot around that, but we don't know very much at.
All around.
How the how the current responses are actually creating more opportunity for abuse to occur.
Is there a.
Is there a clear line between just someone who's really fucking annoying and texts and doesn't read the signs and you know, thirteen messages a day. It's not threatening particularly, it's not intimidating per se, but it's just really fucking unwanted and annoying, and like what qualifies as coercive control, Like is it is it like there's a particular threat or demand or is there some kind of line that is crossed?
So coercive control is and like, I'm really grateful.
For the changes in legislation, and I know that it's difficult to police, and there's a lot of people that are saying, you know, what's the point. The point for me is people are talking about it, and there are a lot of people that now understand or at least asking the question, what is coercive control or you know, because they've never even heard the term before. So the definition of it, and that the definition varies, as is often the case, but it's a pattern of behaviors that
is designed to dominate or control another person. So one of the or two of the key elements to cours of control is understanding intent and harm. So there are behaviors that are a little bit controlling, you know, and especially when you look at young people in relationships and they've got these find my Friends apps and you know they're tracking each other. Those behaviors can be quite innocuous. But it's intent, it's the intention of controlling, and it's
the harm that is being caused. So you can't talk about coursive control without talking about intent and harm.
Mmmm. Wow? And do you where?
Who do you sit down with? How do you like? Are people forthcoming for your research? Are people putting up their hand and saying? Do people want to talk about it? Are people comfortable? Uncomfortable? Is it all done? I guess it's all done anonymously for obvious reasons. But are you finding it easy to get you know, people for your research?
Yeah?
So, because we're looking at systemic responses. I'm not like, I'm not looking at the psychological side of coercive control, and I'm not looking into, you know, individual behaviors and traits and characteristics. We're really focusing on responses. So we're really focusing on the systems perspective.
Of the responses.
So I have had I was really surprised at the response that I got.
And what I have found is that the women that I've spoken to have had so coersive.
One of the impacts of coercive control is really feeling completely isolated, helpless, defeated. You know that you have no control of your life because someone else has taken control. So the feedback that I've gotten from a huge percentage of the women that I've spoken to is they're more than happy to participate in the research because it gives them a.
Sense of.
The validation being heard.
And being heard. But also, you know, one of the questions.
I ask is what advice would you give women in the future who are seeking help for tech facilitated abuse and so they're they're having a voice and helping a problem that they felt helpless in. So because I was really concerned, you know, as I should be as a researcher, I wanted to make sure that the conversations I was
having was not going to retraumatize anybody. But what I have found is that it is actually giving people a sense of control over the whole situation because they're contributing to making it a change, you know, so which also puts a little bit of pressure on the researcher. But I think, not that I need to fix the problem for them, but it means that what I'm doing matters and it has meaning, and you know, if I can if we can make even a small difference to how we respond, then that's good.
Would part of the I'm just thinking now about, you know, I was going to ask you so what's the solution. Obviously that's a dumb question, but moving towards like how do we address this practically systems thinking I get it, well, kind of get it. Thanks for teaching me. But in terms of moving towards something, which is where we're hopefully shining a little bit of a light in the darkness of all of this that gives some people hope and some people answers or protection or do you have anything
in the back of your head? And I know this is probably getting ahead of where you are right now, but I don't mean this in terms of your research, but just you as a researcher, thinking what would you like to see happen potentially in the future that might help the probably thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds maybe of people in Australia and beyond who are dealing with this.
Like is there anything.
Like such like you surely you've thought about well maybe, But it's like when I'm talking about stuff like, for example, with metabception, metaaccuracy, metacognition is realizing that most people you know, so in my stuff, I'm thinking, all right, well, most
people don't understand how other people think. Most people don't understand what they're like to be around most people, you know, all that stuff, and then I so identify that and I go, well, what's what's some what's not what's the answer, but what's something that we could do to maybe move the.
Needle on this?
How how do I approach this where it might create some kind of positive impact regarding this issue in this place with these people. And I know you're far away from that, and I think this is a very complicated thing. It needs to be dealt with, so I don't have to have a question in there, but maybe you've got some thoughts.
Well from a system sew perspective, we don't know yet, but what we are going to do is take the We'll be developing like a almost like an aggregated journey map of the experiences of a victim survivor while seeking help, and then we're then we'll be doing some so the next three studies after that will be actually interactive workshops with stakeholders, so you know, police, legal professionals, digital software developers, you know, any even telecommunications companies because you know they
play a big part in as well. So we'll be taking the journey map to them and then we want to have a look, and we'll be applying some systems thinking methods and frameworks, and you know, after two or three more studies, we'll be developing some recommendations for interventions.
Across the system, right, right, So there's that.
I don't know what they will be yet because we don't know where the leverage points are yet. So that's I'm excited to kind of move through that because it's it's a it's an approach that's not been applied by for so I'm hoping that some new novel kind of
interventions and some new ideas come out of that. So there's that as far as because there's responses, and then there's addressing the issue you know, primary primary intervention at changing attitudes and you know, teaching young people healthy relationships and things like that.
But yeah, it's I think there's.
A lot being done in that space already. It's a public health campaign really.
Yeah.
I feel like also, and remember everyone, this is just a chat, and I have thrown Nicole under the bus.
Yeah what pressure? What pressure?
No?
But I think also you know, like obviously your research has focused on in relationships, but also we see you know, tech tech facility abuse in the workplace.
We see it in.
Like I reckon, I know, I don't know how many I'm guessing, but maybe twenty people who are no longer on either any social media or one particular platform because they just got so much abuse, so much hate, and they were so fearful, they were so anxious, there was so much negative shit around that they just got off.
And and you know, for some of them, it actually is in their interest to have a social media presence because of their business or because of their career or whatever, but they're not doing it because it's just when you do, you do a cost benefit analysis, like it just ain't worth it, like the emotional and psychological cost of being on social media for some people. You know, it's just and so I think it's like, yes, obviously specific to your research intimate couples, but it's something that.
Is I think.
I mean, it's just going to expand because technology is growing, the eye is growing. I mean, I wonder you know all the stuff, all the different forms of abuse that are going to you know, present themselves over the next year or ten that come by way of artificial intelligence, like being able to manipulate and control and influence and terrify people using greater and greater in inverted commas.
You know technology well, and one.
Of the things that really concerns me personally.
Is AI is like we we feed AI, right, So AI is based on is a virtual world, based on our physical world, and we have and we are completely imperfect, you know, we have we live in a patriarchal society. We have you know, there's gender biases, there's all of this.
Stuff is being fed into AI.
And so outputs AI outputs will have those biases built in.
So you know that's a concern.
So you know, like there's so many layers to this that you know, and you know, you can't talk about course of control and intimate partner vance without talking about gender based violence because it is a gendered issue. It is a gender issue, and you know, I've had this argument with so many people that is it really though, well, yes,
actually is you just have to look at the statistics. Yes, so AI is AI concerns me in that regard, So you know, we can be all we can be doing all of this stuff over here as researchers and coming up with interventions and trying to change attitudes.
But if AI horses already bolted.
With AI, then no amount of changing attitudes here is really going to We're always going to be behind the april.
So that behinds me.
Do you think part of well, I don't know.
I feel like and this is different to intimate relationships, but I think a lot of the abuse, the abuse is you know, rampant, because people can do it to an extent anonymously, right, they can do it, you know, they can, you know, and some people do it you know, openly, But there are so many people that are hateful and hurtful and fucking evil, use fake names and all of that stuff because you know, there's no and then like it's really not even worth the time and effort for
unless they're committing a crime. You know, who's going to do anything about that? Because it's just such an overwhelm of that. You know, It's like that happens billions of times a day around the world.
So where do you even begin to address that stuff?
I mean, well, this is where, you know, one of the one of the principles of systems thinking is safety because systems thinking, you know, a lot of the frameworks we're designed for safety, So we do a lot of safety research around you know, aviation safety, rail of us, crossing safety and that sort of thing. So we've just kind of moved it over to personal safety. But one of the tenants is that safety is a shared responsibility.
So every single player in the system, from the tech companies to the software to the social media companies, everyone has a shared responsibility for safety.
So that I think that's theoretically, but how the fuck do you endorse that?
How do you? I mean, I'm with you, but good luck in that.
Real mean, And that's the challenge.
That's the challenge, and that's where we that's where I'm hoping to find some you know, effective leverage points across the system where we can kind of pull in some of those stakeholders to accept the shared responsibility, yeah, exand that they have responsibility or policies or laws or you know, legislation put in place so that the responsibility is shared.
I think, so try to interrupt I think, like with a lot of these things, even with a lot of the I don't even want to mention what it is, but like a lot of the ship that we're seeing, a lot of the crimes that we're seeing in and around Melbourne, I'm sure it happens in Queensland, like like violence with all groups on, Like there's no real consequences, Like people are committing crime after crime after crime after crime,
and they're not going to jail. And I think one of the challenges is that, well, when people can do heinous shit and they're not really penalized, you know, then their life has not changed dramatically. There they do something horrible, something hurtful, hateful, evil, and then depending on what it is, you know, they're just given a slap on the wrist, if that at all, and then there's no there's no real deterrence for some of this stuff.
Obviously this is different. And it's like, well, you know, like I've had.
You know, nothing horrendous, but well yeah, I've had people send me emails and messages that are like really fucking horrendous, like you know, like which I won't elaborate on here, but it's like, oh, and I mean, firstly, it's quite hateful and hurtful. Secondly, I think what's going on in this person's head that they take the time and find the energy to send me this person they've never met, this thing based.
On It's like, wow, what is curious? Around that. But then you go, oh, what do I do? And it's like, well, what the fuck can you do?
It's like yeah, yeah, But then it's I guess it's the it's knowing or not knowing if a threat comes to you via some electronic means like an email or a Facebook message or something like that, where is this person? Like are they outside the front door? Or are they in another state or are they in another country?
Like it can be frightening, Oh for sure, yeah, and I mean this.
With complete compassion. And then I think about more vulnerable people, women and children. I'm talking more physically vulnerable, Like that's got to be fucking terrifying.
Yeah.
Like I'm a big al fora male, and there's ship that still scares me. And I'm like, wow, I think about my mum, who's forty five kilos and five foot you know.
Yeah, it's so.
Well, well, it's it's an ongoing kind of unfolding lesson, isn't it. It's like we're still figuring out what the what the real problem, what the potential not solutions but perhaps strategies moving towards some.
Kind of I don't know that we'll ever solve it. I don't know if that's.
The right phrase, but or the right kind of you know word, but definitely moving towards dealing with it practically and alleviating some of the pain.
Maybe.
Yeah.
Well, and just to give you an example, and this is what these are. These are the things that really shocked me is things like robovacs, a robot vacuum cleaner. Yeah, can be used, has been used as a spy.
Where listening device.
Knowing I knew who you were talking to on the phone last night, how did you know?
Doesn't matter, you don't know. Weeks later down the.
Track you work out that it's the robovac following because it's following you around the house because the perpetrator's got it on remote control cameras in the house being taken over remotely, laptop's being taken over remotely. It's like, it is insidious the things that people.
Have to deal with.
And you know, if you're if you're someone who's running a business.
You can't afford to be without your devices.
You can't afford to be you know, without your internet access or your or whatever.
So some of.
These women have just learned to live knowing that they're constantly being monitored by an ex partner and just trying to do the best that they can to minimize that, knowing that he could turn up anywhere at any time.
So yeah, there are a couple of solutions that come to mind for me, but they're not they're not particularly legal. So I was that is that was interesting. Congratulations on the research that you're doing. Thanks for shining a light on that.
And if you're.
Listening, I know we didn't really fix or change or solve anything, but I think we opened an important conversational door.
And I think the more that we.
Talk about this and think about this, and you know, while it's not I wish it wasn't happening. I wish it wasn't a thing in our culture. I wish it wasn't a thing in our society. But wishing doesn't make it so. And so you know, it's good that we we have these hard conversations about these hard topics and at the very least we increase a little bit of awareness. And do you need any more participants for your research?
Can? Do you want people to reach out? Yep? So tell them how to do that.
So they can email me at Nicole dot Liddell L I double l at research dot USC dot edu dot au and I'll send them a link. So basically, to meet the criteria for the study, you need to be living or not necessarily living in Queensland, but have experienced tech facilitated course of control and sort help from Queensland services. And for people's safety, we request that they consider themselves
to no longer be part be in that relation. So you know, it might be that they're still in co parenting or something like that, but I just to minimize people's risks if they can be if they consider themselves being no longer in that relationship.
But they need to have sought help, so we need to get.
Some information around their help seeking. So yes, they can email me there. The other thing I was going to suggest to people is if this has opened up kind of like what do they want to know more about this entire problem? I just listened to an audio book. Can I give someone else a plug and just listen to Jess Hill's audio books See What.
You Made Me Do?
And she's an investigative journalist, She's been in this space for a long time and she really gives a really good, in depth understanding of the problem of domestic.
Abuse in Australia.
So if if you're keen for that, that's a really good listen, we'll read great.
What's that? Just give us the name of the book, See What You Made Me.
Do, See What You Made Me Do? By Jess Hill.
That's a very clever name, isn't it.
Like as soon as you said that title, I knew exactly.
What that was going to be about.
Yeah, yeah, we appreciate you. I think I'm going to see you in a few.
Days on the goal.
I'll be there.
You'd be good.
I'll see in a few and well it's two it's forty eight hours.
Yeah, what's too right? Oh my godday.
We'll see you in a couple of days with a few others.
And we appreciate you as always, and congrats with what you're doing and good luck with your research and all the stuff moving forward.
Thanks next.
So yeah,