I got atenments you projects. It's Tiffany and cooking. It's doctor Cam McDonald coming at you live from bloody Well to us live from Queensland, looking like some kind of covert operative who's just about to, I don't know, go and execute somebody or assassinate somebody. He's in a back alley. I'm not even joking. It looks like a back alley. He's got a hoodie on, tiff Can you describe what I can see for our listeners, perhaps with some more I don't know color.
It looks like some sort of rambunctious, troubled youth that's up to no good, not at all, don't Yeah.
Well, why don't you tell us where you are and why? When you first started, I thought you were in your mum's buddy cupboard or something. But then I saw a bit of sunlight coming scrop. Where are you and why are you there?
I like, I started making some very strange sounds on Friday m so I had to go take it into the service mechanic, and I also had an appointment down at the Gold Coast, and fortunately there's a train station right next to the mechanics, So two hours later I'm in Rabina Town Center. I've got Harps's podcast that's on.
I'm currently standing next to a three twenty.
Four to seven parcel locker because it's the quietest place that I could find, near the car park, near the bus station where I got off. This is how we're doing it.
This is this is high level. But you know, here's the thing, as you quite rightly said, and you're fucking around, but you're probably half right. You're like, nah, And I said, are you okay to do this? Don't? And you went, yeah, of course, I'm good. I was born for this. And
isn't it so funny? How or so interesting? I guess is a better word that in the middle of what's obviously not an ideal situational circumstance where you could quite easily be distracted and perhaps I don't know, not want to do it, you go, well, fuck, all I'm doing is talking, So how hard can it be. It's just in a slightly albeit not ideal situation.
Well, I mean, you know, I can talk in dark alleys, I can talk in front of people.
I prefer talking and dark alleys.
Actually it feels like it's more important. And I keep taking my head around the corner just to look a little bit, you know, look like I'm up to no good. But really we're trying to save the world here with this content. That's the irony of it.
So when you learn launch your personal podcast, you can call it the Dark Alley with Doctor Cammick.
Into the depths.
Yeah, we go where the others don't. That'd be good, that'd be good. Yeah, tif, how are you?
I'm really good. I'm really good, smarty.
When Monday you just went and had your shit rubbed by a bloke.
It was the best? Yep, thank you.
Do you know what I find funny about massages? People tend to love it or hate it. Like a lot of people like, oh fuck, I hate people touching me. I hate massage. I hate hands on my body. And then other people are like, oh yeah, Like I love massage. I'm a bit of a massage slut. I used to have one every week for like years. I'm like, oh yeah, and I haven't had one for a while, so I assumed maybely I should get some speech therapy and a massage. Are you a massage person? Camp?
I love a massage. I have to say, though, if I leave it for longer than three or four months. I don't want to go back because I just know how painful it's going to be unwinding the things that I've wound up, you know what I mean.
So if you're getting a regular one, I'm right.
Into that, but.
I don't, so I'm scared of the most of the time.
It's so funny, you know how we say, among other things, that emotion lives in the body and all that. One of my not that I've seen this person for a long time, but made of mine, was a masser. He is a massure and he would say to me, at least once a day, someone that is massaging cries, and sometimes out of control crying just because not because they're having a chat about anything, not because he pushed some kind of emotional button. But it's just when I don't
know what it is. Everything's I'm sure you can explain the physiology and the psychology doctor can, but there's something goes on where there's some kind of psychological emotional, physiological release and people just go on and even they don't know what's going on, but it happens right.
One hundred percent. I'd have to say that.
I've had the fortune of being exposed to lots of weird and wonderful things in my life. It's if you were talking to a very conventional doctor, they probably wouldn't recognize it, and that's okay. But being in the world that I have, sort of mixing between both of those worlds without a doubt, And if we were to get down to it, if you have a stress response, a lot of that feeds into your fashion. There's a tension in your fashion, there's nervous system active, there's even physiological changes,
organ changes and uh and well one hundred percent. There seems to be regions of the body that are associated with different emotional responses and different things that you go through. And I believe the link for us, if we were to investigate that further, would be in the fashia.
Yeah, fascinating tip. Have you ever felt like balling while someone's rubbing your ass or your hamstrings?
Not in the massive ads, but definitely in yoga. That's happened to me twice, which is I guess similar like those back bends. They get right in there really, yeah, because it really opens up the front of your body, which I believe or maybe it's your hips or something, and that's where a lot of your emotions are stored. Twice, I've had an unexpected massive emotional breakdown in the middle of the yoga class.
And did you what did you do? Did you try and fight it like a little fighter, or did you just I can go with it. Dr Luk at Doctor Cam, he's looking over his should he's about to get attacked. Can you please not die in the middle of the podcast? In fact, don't die in general, but really fuck up the show if you know you capitulated midcomb, especially once we're in. If you're going to die, die soon or just after the show.
Thank you. I'll tell the hoodlums.
Don't die it or we love you, go and tiv Sorry.
Actually just remembered three times happened. First time was many many years ago in a Bickram yoga class. First something ever happened, and that was quite overwhelming, and I ended up rushing out of the class, which is against the rules in Bickerm yoga. It's like it's totty here. You're locked in. Nobody leaves.
Yeah, that's right I did.
Second time was after I lost coaching my last whippet and I was in a yoga class. I stayed in there and just sobbed on the mat. That was beautiful. And the third time was in India when we recently went and Jem's partner she takes and we were doing some pilates and backbends, and it was after our first night there of all sharing our stories quite deeply and vulnerably, and again the little backbend and next minute just sobbing on the mat.
I wonder what that's about, that particular movement for you? And did you when when you had it in the yoga studio after was it coach? When Coach died?
Did you?
Did you? Did you just fucking let it all out? And did anyone come up and go? Are you okay?
They're very like I was. Well. I went with a client of mine, a friend and client, and she had said to the yoga teacher had ran into her walking coach once so that she had told her that I was coming and I was probably gonna be quite upset because I've lost that little doggie. And so you know, people just they hold space. That's beautiful like that and
everyone understands. And I wasn't loud. I was just you could hear me sniffing and sobby and oh this is this is a good space to be held if I'm going to have a car I'm just because it's an emotion that it doesn't come from from your thoughts, like those the times when that happens, it's just you. One minute you doing yoga. In the next minute you're like, oh, okay, we're going to have a cry. Now. I'm not sure where this came from.
Speaking of now this is a big left turn, but related. I don't know the exact term, but it's something like exercise induced orgasms. Have you ever heard of that?
Cam?
Have you heard of that?
I mean, what kind of exercise is no?
No, no, no, no, no, no, this is real, Tiff, can you look it up. I used to train this lady. This is twenty twenty years ago, and she was quite strong. She was an athlete and whenever she would do hanging leg raisers.
But ahak of those. And I'm not having the pleasure.
No, But it's a very individual physiological And that sounds like I'm being silly and inappropriate. It's actually not. But it's something that happens, and it happens. It's like it's more common than you think. It's like maybe one in one hundred people or something.
So is this instead of getting a stitch? Is this what happens?
No?
No, people literally, No, they're nicknamed orgasms because often they show up when you're doing call work, like crunches, planks and hanging leg raisers.
There you go, hanging leg raises, and when she would do that, she would fall to around and go I can't and I'm like, you're right. She goes, and then she would be really embarrassed but kind of laughing and having the best time ever. I'm like, what the fuck is going on? And she goes. You cannot tell anyone. So here the park. I am on an international podcast. Shout out to Donna. No, that's on her, but yeah that's your Donna. Yeah, babies from Bo Morris. I hope
you're doing well. It's been a while, as that's still happening. No it No, that's not who it was, but yes, it's it's a real thing. And so we had to get a work around so we could work her abs without, you know, without being too distracting for the rest of the members.
Intrigued.
What else does it say?
There's ten to fifteen percent of women have had at least one that's probably more than who have had one with regular sex with their partner.
That's interesting, isn't it. That's interesting? Wow?
Well I wonder if the people that can have that are also the ones that are having it.
With their partner.
Oh good point.
Wow to be the same population.
Wow wow. Well, enough about orgasms and uncontrolled crying in yoga. We were going to talk today about intrinsic motivation. Dr cam I have I've talk about motivation more than I want to. I don't mean in this conversational kind of sense, but just in terms of it. You know, it seems something that comes up regularly in my work where people want to know, you know, how do I stay motivated? Craigan. I'm like, ah, this is not a quick answer. And when I get introduced as a motivational speaker, which I
understand it, but I fucking hate that title. It's like, that isn't what I am, but you know, good intentions. And then I kind of have to explain in a nice way without sounding like a spoilt brat, why I'm not that and what I am, And then what I think the role of motivation is, and not only the role of motivation, but what motivation actually is like what is it? Is it a state? Is it a driver? Is it an emotional and or psychological experience? Is it a frame of mind? Can we generate it? Do we?
You know? So when we talk about external or extrinsic and intrinsic motivators, what are we chatting about, doc, Well, I.
Mean the thing that inspired it is I'm about to walk into a school and then they're running a program with the students where they already run a strengths based kind of program where they say, hey, you did this really well, congratulations on your strength, and then they put a little ticket up on the board, whatever it might be,
and they now want to send it home. They want to get the educators to send it home to the parents so that the parents can see it as well, and so that there's a full get it around the child effect on that they're getting feedback from the school
and at home consistently. And one of the things that came up was there's a couple of educators there that are a little bit resistant to doing this because they feel like telling a child, you know, good job their strengths whatever it might be, robs them of their intrinsic motivation because it's externally delivered, and it got me thinking, you know, everything, everything that's changing our state some sort of external input that we then develop into our internal
motivation whatever it may be. We are constantly in reaction and response to the environment all of the time, and it's just started getting me thinking about, well, there has to be a useful input that still generates intrinsic motivation in an individual or provides the environment that it does. And it got me thinking about, well, what state, what physiological state does somebody need to be in to have more intrinsic motivation, And that sort of led me down
the pathway. Okay, well, how a person will get into that physiological state is going to be quite different depending on the person that they are as well and so, and it all depends on from what I'm seeing, it all depends on the way that you are giving the compliment.
But also there's another little layer in here as well around.
The right compliment, the right strength can actually return someone back to the physiological state that then supports intrinsic motivation as well. And say, I was just I was fascinated to unpack that today.
Yeah, that's great, that is super interesting. I think more broadly, if we zoom out from praising someone or giving them, you know, only positive input, which of course is great, but to be able to give them, you know, all kinds of feedback, constructive and what some people might call critical, which I think critical gets misrepresented. Critical gets intertwined with hurtful or judge. I don't know, you know, it seems
like it gets a bad rap. Well, let's know, it's just it's just thinking critically and consciously and strategically about what you're doing and maybe how it could be better. And me, who's maybe got a few more runs on the board. Did you just come across someone cam's glaring at somebody.
It's a nice seven year old who has given me a weird look. So it's just not gave them a Yeah, I'm good with oldies.
Yeah, yeah, and you should maybe took the take the hoodie off, I mean the top it. But yeah, I think that we praise is good to a point. Like if a kid only ever gets praise and never gets anything but accolades and pats on the back and approval and you're amazing, I don't know that that sets them up well for life beyond the praise bubble agreed.
I just don't think you'll find a child who's getting that life, And I think there is it is. I would say almost. I don't want to say impossible. Almost impossible to go through this life without the majority of the feedback that you're getting being neutral or judgmental. I would say there. And I would say there's a difference between praise and also supporting a person back into a
state of safety. And I think that there's a because safety is a very important part of the physiological response that allows you to have intrinsic motivation too.
Yes, I hear what you're saying.
If you're just giving phrase and like, no matter what you do, and here's a trophy for you know, falling over before you even stepped up to the sopper pitch type thing. Yes, I think that's where they're getting an undriden It's not leading them back to themselves. It's in fact, in painting a false picture. It's disconnecting from them from themselves even further. And I think that was the thing that really came across, is how can we return people back to feeling good in themselves?
And from there there's some good things that happened.
Yeah, is there ever a time where we go people don't have to feel good about themselves all the time because it's not a normal human experience feel good about yourself all the time as opposed to self loathing and you know, self flagellation. But it's like, oh he feels shit, well he probably should feel shitited for a little bit because he did something shit. And this is this is part of being human. It's not to try to drag everybody out of every emotional hole they find themselves in
and to make it better. You know, sometimes I think you know while still knowing, Hey, by the way, you're loved, We love you, but you fucked up, but we love you. That's that doesn't ever decrease or go away. But you're loved and valued and needed and wanted, but you did some dumb shits. So just sit in that.
I love that. And that's That's a very important difference from projecting onto somebody and saying I'm in a bad mood. You've done something that's wronged me, you've made you've made me feel this way, and I'm doing this specifically to
make you feel like with without that love attached. But then at the same time, presenting an environment where someone can find a boundary is really really powerful to say, hey, you cross this boundary and as a result, there's a consequence to this, and then they're allowed to respond or
react with emotion to that. But it's this I believe that the state that someone's holding when they're holding that boundary is one of one of care and one of neutrality, allowing the response rather than trying to create someone to feel bad. I don't think you're feeling bad enough. I'm going to make you feel upset. That's that's not the that's not the way to do it. You know.
One of the tough things I reckon about this doctor Cam and tiff Et l everyone else is that, you know, sometimes it's like the people that are guiding the big people that are guiding the little people don't have their own shit together, you know what I mean, how many of us, including me at times, are fuck ups. And then you bring your own fucked upness into that situation where you don't realize just your energy and your words and your present presence and the way that you interact
with that kid consciously or not impacts that kid. You know, So having this high level social and situational awareness and social and emotional intelligence, you know, forever around your kid. All that. I mean, that's I would think that's somewhat impossible.
I would agree with a lot of experience around that. And all I'm doing is thinking about this stuff all
day long. And then I've got the extra lens of specifically knowing the words that are going to affect my kid's genes the most, Like I have information on that, and I still find myself failing it daily, you know, And this is the and I just think about, you know, obviously I shared a few podcasts ago now about my subconscious clearing that I had, Like some of the baggage in my subconscious was from Mum, you know, like from
my memory. And it couldn't be something that I've made up, but it could be Mum saying, no, don't give him a hug. He's in trouble to dad, you know that. And that's that's innocent. That's like, no, he's in the corner getting punished. But what I needed in that moment, my little soul needed some love. I mean, that's so innocuous, and so there is no chance.
No chance.
That you can't mess up that you can't bring your baggage. That you can't and you've just got to understand that that's part of the human journey. Like every single person is going to have something subconscious that's influencing their belief systems and you're going to be projecting that without even knowing it, and silently you can project it.
It's fascinating.
So this is why one of the big things that I'm going to do in this session is I'm going to take them through an experience of what it feels like to be in your happy, flow based, cared for state and how do you actually feel Do you feel passionate?
Do you feel like you're actually motivated to do something now?
Because if people can get an experience of that themselves and this is then they're much more likely to be able to pass that on. And probably I've heard Jordan Peterson say it before, but I've seen it in action many many times, and that is you know, it takes so few moments of a strength based complement and celebrating someone for who they are to completely change their day. Yet yet we don't do it as a culture. We don't we aren't specifically looking for how can I lift
this person up. How can I make them feel better? How can I celebrate just who they are and tell them that they are enough just by being who they are. It's it's not in our normal vocabulary or our in our normal interactions. So there's such a powerful opportunity there to really raise that.
How old did these kids stock?
So the primary school?
Wow?
Primary school?
Yeah, so it's right time.
Yeah, we're forming subconscious patterns right now, and like to think that you can embed some really powerful identity of geez, me just being me is enough Geese. That's a that's a cool thing to amplify as you get older, because that is that. I don't know, I find very few people don't have some sort of story I'm not good enough for, I'm not worthy, Like is it just seems to be written into.
Our experience.
When is the time where you might say, with a kid, where you might sit down one on one quietly, Not that you want to do this every day because it becomes ineffective, but you know, it might be once a month, might be once a year where you just you identify patterns of behavior and patterns of communication and even within yourself that are problematic with your kid or you know, whoever the person is doesn't have to be a kid. But where you would say, can I chat to you?
And then you just sit I don't know. You walk to a park, you sit on a bench and it's just you and a couple of trees and no phones, and it's thirty minutes, or it's ten minutes, or it's you sitting out the back of the in the backyard, but just where you step out of the busyness and the routine and the mania of a busy day, which is all of us. We're all ver busy, and just go I want to talk about this.
It's interesting you asked that, and I've got a I actually think that that's it serves some people. Well, my son is a as were spoken about, he's a little connector. Ultimately, what that means is that what is happening in the moment is the thing that is in the moment.
This is the thing that matters right now.
And if I was to pull him aside for something he did two weeks ago, yes, he would just get lost in the conversation straight away. Whereas and so I'm finding that I need to consciously make that moment in the moment and I need to deal with it in
the moment. However, there are like my niece and nephew, for example, have a very different makeup, very future focused, but also are a lot more logical and linear in their thinking, and they do well having a structured conversation about things, whereas I've just found that it's not even though that's my preference, it's not being successful with my more emotionally driven son. If I deal with something in the moments, hey, hey mate, quick one, how to think
about this? And I have to say it in quite a specific way for him to grab it. I can't do the lecture thing. I can't do the explanation thing. I've got to get him to I've got to trompt a feeling out of him with a situation. How do you think that would feel? Do you think this would see?
How do you think that would feel to them?
Yes?
So it's just different language.
Whereas I can really with my niece and nephew, I can just break it down exactly the way that I think about it, and they grab it because their brain's a lot more similar to mine. So I think there's absolute value in it. It's the way and the timing of it. Will differ up for people.
I remember, I don't know how long it was ago, Tiff might tell me five months or something ago. Tif and I had a bit of a rough patch for no logical reason, and it was just like we're both a bit fucked off at each other for nothing in particular, right, it doesn't matter what it was. But I remember one day we had something of an emotional conversation which went from emotional to not emotional to just really healthy too.
And I would say in you know, I don't know, Tip, was it twenty minutes on the phone or something like. I remember, I remember where it happened. I was out walking, and I don't know where you were, but I remember exactly where I was when they had we had a conversation and you're a bit upset and I was a bit upset, and there was a bit of miscommunication and misunderstanding and a few assumptions that were incorrect on both sides,
and blah blah blah blah blah. I reckon since that one conversation, like, our relationship has been one hundred percent healthier than it was even before, don't you think ever? Ever? Yeah, Like it's just like, oh, well, I wish I had that fucking conversation before, because this is not that hard. You know where I had to go. You know, I with this what I think this? She said, this is what I think and feel, and I went, this is
what I think and feel. And we both went, ah, well, I didn't mean that, and I went, I didn't mean that and we both went ah, shoulder strug all right then or good?
And it's I know that won't work for everyone, but for me that when you like just take a little bit of time and space and you're not hurrying, you're not doing it off the back of something else, or you're not rushing to somewhere or.
With that in mind, what do you think of the idea of adults asking children for feedback on their performance, as in saying, your kid, as a dad, how am I going? What do you think I could do better?
Now?
I know that's a you know, that's going to be a bloody nightmare, maybe or maybe not, because I would like to really understand what if I was a dad, what I am like through their eyes? Like what is the CRAIGIEXP into the dad experience? Obviously this is my PhD, but you know, what is it like being around me for them, not what do I think it is, but what the fuck actually is it?
I don't know if they've got the language for it, right, I mean, and you cannot, I think, to get to get them to articulate something that you know that makes sense at an adult cognitive level, I think would be a stretch.
There would be feedback that you could get on. Yeah, I mean, they're definitely.
I mean from the experience, there's definitely to say, like do you feel like I'm listening to you all of the time? Do you feel like if you went in with some guided questions as to the types of things that we know is important just to the human experience, I think you could get some some good stuff out
of that. The there's so much, there's so much consideration that's outside their sphere when it comes to being a you know, like the way that you manage emotions, the way that you put things to a side, or as a mother as well, like mums put so much to the side to you know, to be the mother and to be centered and to be balanced for the child and to forego things.
So it's a really interesting question.
I mean, definitely, I would argue that they're constantly giving that feedback all of the time indirectly. Yeah, I'm just thinking, Yeah, it's a really good question. I think some kids would be able to do it quite well. There's some kids that are able to articulate their thoughts in a really powerful way. They're able to break down things with structure. Other kids are a lot more emotionally driven. Other kids will want to please you and will give an answer
that you want. So I think you would have to ask the question specifically if you go on for a very specific outcome. What do you think?
Yeah, I think it would just be an interesting exercise. I'm with you. I think different kids are going to give you different levels of you know, honesty from one of a better term and insight. And also I agree, you know, whether or not they actually to be able to one identify clearly what they feel or think and then articulated in a way that's meaningful is you know,
another challenge. But I was thinking while you were talking, this my first real experience with this kind of interactive feedback and you know, kind of situational on social awareness and what am I like and what do you think
of me? And all that stuff, was when I worked at sin Kilda Footy Club, which was a long time ago, and there was a dude called is still a dude called Ray MacLean who runs I think he still runs an organization called Leading Teams And sin Kilda was one of the first clubs back in the day to bring in an external contractor. And some of it was rough, where we just plugged a dude up the front, a player up the front, and everyone just went, here's what we think. And I mean some guys were good with it,
some guys weren't good with it. Some guys, you know, understandably. And that's also, you know, to what you were saying, what will work with one person, which actually could be quite empowering and helpful, insightful and directive for somebody else, could be a comple complete social clusterfuck where it's just this doesn't work at all, and now I hate you and fuck off and don't talk to me. So that's
the other thing. We're trying to apply one single idea or methodology or protocol to forty different athletes in other words, forty different human beings and thinking you might get some kind of consistent accuracy or feedback or you know, it's it doesn't work either.
You have to assume amazing emotional intelligence. Like I know plenty of my friends if they got some really bad feedback from their kid, it doesn't miss them like it hits them, and it changed their response and there'll be defensiveness and they'll be justification and they'll come around to it.
But you know, there's.
Yeah, I would say that with the right lens you can check out the feedback that you're getting from your child all of the time, based on their behavior and
various things like that. But yes, even in that situation, like we know that some individuals are much more geared towards the external perception of status and if they don't have it, it's it's really damaging and a lot of them so and that the same person is very future focused, so to be told about all of the things that are wrong with their past, the things that they've done in the past, that just plays on their mind. They've
dropped their status. They're now having to focus on the past rather than thinking, well, why don't you just tell me what I can do better, rather than how I'm really bad, whereas somebody else loves that past orientation is very very open to feedback, isn't so worried about the status of things, and so it doesn't have the same impact on They can take a lot away from it.
They're not so emotionally charged by the whole thing. So absolutely there's But at the same time, if you've got a if you're wanting to build a culture of we talk about everything and you know, then that's one way
of going about it. But I would say that and even from the session that I'm thinking about later on today, is in order for somebody to receive feedback really well and grow, for someone to feel like this is a really good environment and I now want to get better and I'm now motivated, and it to be intrinsic.
They have to feel safe.
And so if a person is feeling incredibly threatened up the front, you need to have an incredible safety mechan around that situation so that they have time to process it, they have time to be caught on the other side of it, they have time to be you know, like to be then loved. I don't know if that happened at s and Kilda, but there needs to be a safe environment in order for healing to occur. That's why you need to sleep. That's why you heal when you sleep.
That's why you're immune system comes on when you sleep. That's when you can't take a kid out of trauma unless you've actually got them into.
A safe place.
That's why psychological consultations they take you into that dangerous spot while you're in a safe place.
It is.
And if you're now on a team and then straight away you're running out under the paddock afterwards and you haven't had a time to decompress, then you're out there thinking about what are these blokes actually think of me? You know, should I even kick to them? So it's an interesting one.
Yeah. Look, and in their defense, they were still very good. I mean they were very good, and they were really breaking ground, you know in this psychological, emotional, social intelligence, interaction awareness kind of space, and you know they're still around and they've really evolved, and it was for the
most part, it was good. But even if you've got the best model or the best whatever, the best protocol and the best intentions, even now you know, you go, even with all we know now and everything, you're still you're still going to get some bad outcomes just because you're dealing with so many different human beings. When you go into something like today, what are the what are
the outcomes that you want to get? Like? What are the intended out So when you talk to the teachers or the principal or whoever, it is like, what are we looking to get out of a day like this where you're spending with you know, some primary aged kids in terms of what we might see off the back of it.
Yeah, so it's a group of about twenty educators and the leadership team.
Oh sorry, I thought it was with kids.
It is for the kids, right, for the kids, right, Yeah, But regardless, the outcomes are actually the same even if this is happening for the kids too. The number one thing is they have to feel safety during the session, and that's generally I do some sort of visualization that takes them to a place where they can feel safe, and then I get them to talk about their experience to somebody else about that sense of safety and what it means to them.
Can I interer up for one sec. Are you talking about the teachers need to feel safe or are you talking about when the teachers do this work with the kids.
No?
No, yeah, I get the teachers to feel safe, right, right? And the reason for that is because you can talk theory and science at them the whole time, but they'm actually feeling. The thing that we're trying to get the kids to feel is easily the most convincing evidence that they can collect on the day. So we talk about the theory normally, I give them the experience first. I make sure that they feel something, because they get them immediate response, oh jeez, that is really nice. That does
feel good. I do like that person and the effect that they have on me. That does make me feel better and more motivated and more clear. And so you go, great, have a chat to your friend about it. And then we explain some of the science as to why it happens the way that it does and why it relates to the thing that we visualized. So they go, okay, well that now makes sense. That gives them the principles then to say, well, how can I translate that to
another person? And so by the end of it, they've already got a structure that is built of the way they're feeding these positive comments to the kids. What I'm looking to generate today is for them to say, holy crap, if we don't do this, it's negligent. You know, if we don't, if we don't really support these individuals and then get everybody in their life to reflect this stuff back to them. I mean, if we do it, it makes such a powerful difference. If we don't, then we're
robbing them a little bit. And I want that sort of comparison so that when the logistics of hey, you've got to fill out this sheet and you've got to hand this sheet in at the end of the week, and you're going to be tracked by the head of school, like when all of that's liff comes around, I want it to be framed in a ultimately and intrinsically motivated place of I've got information, I know what it feels like.
I actually want to do this for the kids because it's going to make me feel good, right.
I want to be a contrarian for one minute, not because I necessarily. I definitely don't disagree with you. I agree with you, and everything you said makes sense. But I have a question that is a kind of a juxtaposition of that particular idea that you just shared. My question is, so we want people to learn, grow, evolve, be resilient, be able to deal with uncertainty. We want them to be able to adapt, deal with the unknown, essentially, cope with hardship, because life is hardship. Is it ever
okay to create a situation where people feel unsafe? They're not unsafe, but they feel unsafe And this is part of the growing and learning and teaching.
Understand. Give me an example that you're thinking of.
Well, I'm just thinking of like, you know, some times when I would train people, and I will train people hard as tiff nose, right, and it is not the most comfortable, safe, joyful, pleasant. It's all optional though, and I'd say you can stop any time, but I wouldn't say that. The experience they're having is I feel safe. Neither necessarily do I feel under imminent threat. But I just think that And maybe safe or unsafe is not
the exact terminology. But I'm thinking, like we talk so much about resilience and being able to be the calm and the chaos equanimity, you know, dealing with all of these real kind of life experiences, the good, the bad, the peaks of troughs, a fucking ugly, the beautiful, Like we've got to deal with all of it, not just the peaks and not just the beautiful and not just
the comfortable. But I think if we always train people in a comfortable environment, what happens when they step out of the comfort, when they step out of the safety and the known and the certain into the opposite? Have we prepared them for that?
I love that.
So the thought that goes through my mind when you say that is the equivalent of uh, let's say stress, like they're going through stress when they're exercising really hard as opposed to the safety is a recovery space. Yes, So in my mind, what you're doing firstly you create well for me, straight up exercise, you become unsafe. Let's for the purposes of this experience, when you're testing yourself above and beyond.
Yep.
The safety environment then is getting enough sleep because that's where your recovery happens. It's eating enough food because that's where your recovery happens. And if you were to consistently miss sleep and consistently miss your nutrition, eventually that same environment that was tolerated but a little bit risky will now start to cause injury because there isn't a recover
from that stress that's being placed on somebody. So if you're couching that exercise firstly in an amount that's appropriate a progressive overload, and then you're ensuring that they get an appropriate amount of recovery. Then that's that wrap around of safe environment to risk to safe environment again where the healing can occur.
Because the only point of having.
A stressful like the only the benefit of having a stressful experience is if there is some sort of recovery on the other side of it, that's where you learn about it. If you're just constantly under stress, you just constantly waste your body away, that's you see an ultra marathon runner. They're a shadow at the end of their
one hundred cases. So the equivalent for me cognitively and emotionally is allowing someone to go into a space where they're challenged is great, and then collecting them on the other side and helping them learn and helping them recover and helping them grow from the experience is the gold I would I would say particularly for educators as well, seventy percent of them at a moderate or greater risk
of depression and anxiety. I would say that they are constantly in the example of training without sleep, most of the time they are constantly feeling overburdened by life.
They're feeling like.
They're having to manage curriculum plus their workload, plus their duties to parents, plus the ever increasing needs of neurodivergence. And what that brings to the classroom as well is that they are constantly living in a less than happy place. They're often not being educated on how to eat well and sleep well and exercise well to recover those things.
And so often my intention when I'm in a session, I agree with you one hundred percent that we should challenge, But most people I find don't even know how to navigate back to safety first. And so I guess a lot of the work that I do is about helping people find safety because heaps a challenge already in their life, they just handle it better once they know how to return back to safety.
So that would be I agree, And I think you know perfect.
Like the example you used before in a sporting team is you need the whole gamut. Like you need to make sure that you are challenging people with their training, you also need to be maximizing their recovery mentally and emotionally as well.
So I agree, I agree, that's what came to mind.
It's interesting because and this sounds like bullshit, but it's not. Literally this morning, I was at the cafe and I was talking to a guy who played about two hundred games of AFL, so, you know, very good, not a super duper star, but a very fucking anyone who plays five games to me as a hero, right, but and there's five games more than I ever could have played in anything professional, but so really good player. And we were talking about he's now coaching a team, and he
was talking about how they went on the weekend. They won, but they were shit in the first half, and they got their shit together, and we're talking about dealing with pressure, and we both spoke about athletes that either we've played with him or coached me worked with, who were genetically gifted, who were skilled, who could run a fucking five K time trial in you know, fifteen or sixteen minutes, who could like they had all of these gifts and skills, but in the middle of a game, in front of
you know, seventy or eighty thousand people at the MCG, they just couldn't deal with the pressure. So despite the fact that they had all of the physiological and skill kind of attributes they never really succeeded because they just couldn't manage their mind to manage their body. And this
is you know, it's so interesting. And I think that even with like I've watched Tiff over the last two years go from being let's see, not terrified but not super confident in front of audiences to now where she's very skilled. Like it's the same woman doing the same thing, but the confidence and the capacity to form under pressure and freestyle and b in the moment and just deliver
has really evolved. You know, like she doesn't have more potential, she has more skill, but she doesn't have better genetics. She doesn't act like everything's the same, except she's evolved
in the way that she needed to evolve. And I think that that whole You know, whether or not you're a politician or an athlete, or a corporate speaker, or you building an organization and trying to change the world, you know, how well you can perform under pressure is almost the overarching determinants determinant of successful failure.
I agree. I agree. And the reason that Tiff has got better, oh it has it was because she was putting herself in an uncomfortable place, and then recovered and then reflected, collected, put herself in a more uncomfortable place, again, reflected and collected, put it on. And it's that progressive overload which is really important. So I agree that controlled discomfort is a brilliant thing. It's what exercise training is all about. Like to make it the easiest analogy ever.
So yes, it's the cycle of challenge and recovery, challenge and recovery where you can learn from the things.
I think that for me is the key.
Okay, two things before we wind up. I may have asked you these at some stage, but if I did, it was years ago. So I want to revisit these two questions that I sometimes ask new people to the show.
Question number one is what is something that you believed that you don't believe anymore, or something that was really part of your teaching or your ideology or and you might have just changed the way you do it, or you might have done a complete one idea and thought I think now I don't think that anymore because I've got new information or awareness or knowledge. What's something that you've done a version of a one ad on?
Yeah, that knowledge is the most important thing for me, Knowledge was the most important thing.
That was my strength. I loved collecting knowledge. I loved.
But now I know that it's it's the feeling that is created in people. For some it is the knowledge, for others it is But even on stage, like particularly, you know, I used to think, if I just feel my slides and just fill people's brains with content, then every.
Of the world's going to change.
And what I realized now it's the emotion that people experience, and it's the practicality of them being able to put into place and it you know, just the way that I explain things now is so basic because you just don't need the detail in order for people to feel it and then do it. So that's probably been a huge change. And I still see that in myself now, like I'll the first time I present new content, I'll be over I'll be overboard with the information that there'll
be too much of it. That's still an old habit that I go into sometimes.
All right, last question is two. Part Part one is what are you great at? Uh? And there's nowhere you going that you just have an awareness that you're very fucking good at that thing. And Part two is what do you need to be better at?
Yeah, so I know I'm great at going away collecting information and turning into something that's that's fun to listen to where people can get an insight from it and.
Do it in a in a fun way.
School. I like that school.
And then the things that I need to be better at, I would have to say, discipline around routine really yeah, yeah, I get things done. I get things done, but it's more scattered than I would like it to be. So it's there is a really nice rhythm that comes from me being routined from doing the same thing, from tracking
the same metric. But there's part of my brain that goes, yeah, let's do something different, and I just I just see that, and I know that if I stayed on the original track, then things will just move along with a little bit more ease.
We still get there, but I know, I know I could be better.
At that tip.
How often or many times have you and doctor Cam been in the same room?
Have we been in the same room camp?
Have we ever? I don't think so.
Yeah, zoom rooms. Yeah, but you've never you've never met in person?
That's crazy.
Yeah, that is interesting. Yeah, I thought that well, doctor Cam. When you do bump into Tip one day, treat yourself to a boxing session with her. I think you'll enjoy it. All right mate, We appreciate you. Tell people where they can hear you up.
Yeah, yeah, just the best way to go is just search doctor cam and then the Shay Group, Shae Group, and then depending on whether you're a health professional and wanting to look at precision health and medicine, whether you're a corporate that's looking at well being, schools that are looking at precision learning, precision leadership, gyms that are wanting to personalize your membership experience. That's all of that can be found at the Shay Group website at doctor cam.
Get the up. Butto cup all right mate, we'll say goodbye here but good luck for today and have fun with those teachers and we appreciate you.
Thank you, appreciate it